These are questions that many Jehovah's Witnesses seem to have when they are confronted with the corruption in the Watchtower Society. The Society's answer, of course, is that there is nowhere else to go. What is a doubting Jehovah Witness to do?
Belief that one must go anywhere is part of the Watchtower programming.
There is such a strong desire to go and replace the all-encompassing JW experience with something else equally encompassing. Some other organization that will tell you what to do when, in fact, everything you need to know is right in the scriptures.
It is possible for a person to have faith and a personal relationship with God apart from the Watchtower Organization. Many people had a relationship with God long before Charles Russell quit his clothing business and started printing his religious journal. The lamb's book of life is what counts, not being on a certain 19th century magazine subscription list.
The phrase "To where shall I go" is not in the Bible: The phrase "to whom shall we go" is. It is not talking about leaving a "religious organization" as the Jehovah's Witnesses would like you to believe, but a person, Jesus Christ.
"Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God. John 6:68-69
Jesus is the way the truth and the life, not an "organization" even one calling itself "Jehovah's Organization".
"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." John 14:6
Just because an organization uses the name Jehovah and claims to represent him does not make it so (many organizations besides the Watchtower also use the name Jehovah and many others claim to be "God's Organization").
Because the Watchtower has hurt them, many reject God at the same time they reject the Society. The Watchtower has made faith in the Society the same as faith in God and the Bible. Thus, many give up faith in God and the Bible when they loose their faith in the Watchtower Organization.
The key is to seek a personal relationship with God through Jesus Christ. Then perhaps someday they may be ready for a healthy Christian fellowship -one that exalts Jesus and not a particular "organization."
The Jesus of the scriptures is a far different being than the Jesus of the Watchower. He is personally interested in people (I say this because of my experience with him). Those who wish to seek a relationship with God need to re-evaluate who they have been taught Jesus Christ is. The Christ of the scriptures is a far more powerful being than the Christ of the Watchtower. Seek him.
"Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me." Revelation 3:20
"And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last." Revelation 22:12-13"He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus." Revelation 22:20
22 comments:
"These are questions that many Jehovah's Witnesses seem to have when they are confronted with the corruption in the Watchtower Society"
No, JWs don't have those questions. Only idiot opposers do. JWs do not worry about the Watchtower Society. They do what Jesus said and preach.
Yes, there is no where else to go and one must go somewhere. Heb 10:24,25 says to assemble together.
That must be done in a location.
Revelation 1&2 speaks of congregations.
Letters were written to congregations.
So where do you go to be part of the congregation that Jesus leads?
hey ronde, go back to the post "from gods hands to the watchtower" and leave your wise comments. the post contradicts your claim that the jw's are separate from the watchtower.
i think you are slightly crazy and fun to watch! continue on...please
Kimmy Jane said:"hey ronde, go back to the post "from gods hands to the watchtower" and leave your wise comments. the post contradicts your claim that the jw's are separate from the watchtower."
Well, I've only been to New York once, so I am quite separate from the Watchtower. Mapquest says that I am 998.54 miles away from the Watchtower Society.
What "religion" teaches all these things???????????
Jehovah is God
Jesus is God's Son
When you die, you are asleep.
There is no Hell fire.
Satan is the complete ruler of this world and controls all the governments of the earth.
Christians must keep seperate from this world. So we are neutral.
Christians will not go to war or participate in any of the nations conflicts or politics!
Preach the good news of the Kingdom
Support the morality of the Bible.
Accept the whole Bible as the word of God.
Do not have a paid clergy class.
The Kingdom with Jesus as King, not man, will solve all the ills of the earth. Sickness, death, crime, poverty, hunger, pain, ........
Are one united brotherhood of all the nations around the earth.
They all speak in agreement about the Bible.
Where is a group of people who embodies all this as a group?? I will go there.
Oh wait, I am already there. I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses.
Do not celebrate pagan holidays.
The kingdom will rule over a Paradise earth.
All governments will be crushed by this Kingdom.
@ronde
do you really believe what youre saying?
@ano
> Jehovah is God
everyone teaches that. many just dont use "jehovah" in the greek scriptures, because theres no real evidence that it was ever in it.
but this isnt a sign of the one true religion (that they change a part of the bible i.e.). dont you have faith that god can watch over the bible himself?
> Jesus is God's Son
even believers in the trinity believe that. every christian beleive it. this is a doctrine question. not a sign of the one true religion.
> When you die, you are asleep.
almost every christian believe that. its what happening after death whats interesting. some think all get ressurected to heaven. jws believe only a part gets immediately resurrected to heaven. have you recognized that jws beliee that some of them which are dead are possibly in heaven as angels NOW? Whats about being asleep? no sign of the true religion. just an interpretional matter.
> There is no Hell fire.
again, just an interpretional matter. theres evidence for hell in the bible. jesus talked about it, satan gets thrown into it. in contrary jesus said the dead are asleep. theres no easy answer.
> Satan is the complete ruler of this world and controls all the governments of the earth.
thats not what jws believe.
if he really controls it at will the world would look not as good as it looks. you can go shopping without being shot down, can you?
in fact jws believe that satan has influence, but humans arent his muppets. and the governments are there with gods *permission* too.
> Christians must keep seperate from this world. So we are neutral.
yes, jesus said that. so why does the wtg get involved with the UN? so why did they encouraged their brothers to fight in WW1? yes, its true, check the old watchtowers. so what does it really mean to be "seperate"?
> Christians will not go to war or participate in any of the nations conflicts or politics!
so why did the jws protest for religion freedom with strong political (not biblical) messages in france? why do they seek governmental privileges by sueing the goverments? why printing open letters to the heads of state? isnt this getting involved in politics? why dont they trust on god?
> Preach the good news of the Kingdom
the catholic church as an example did it very well and more effectively as the witnesses. nowhere in the bible its said that EVERY christian has to go from house to house, in fact some christian of the first century didnt go preaching. preaching can be done informally too.
> Support the morality of the Bible.
nearly all christians do that. and if you would break it down to the single christian the jws arent in good standing. in the two congregations i was part of im the only one whos marriage lasted longer than 3 years in the last 10 years. pedophiles, cheating, everything.
> Accept the whole Bible as the word of God.
jws dont do that. there are far more holy scriptures than those in your current bible. the bible was compiled by the false religion (christendom) some centuries ago. theres nothing like the "whole bible" because men have to decide which scripture is part of the bible and which is not. some say the revelation is not part of the bible. we say the apogryphes arent part of the bible.
> Do not have a paid clergy class.
we dont? who are the guys at bethel, who decide about human rules and doctrine?
> The Kingdom with Jesus as King, not man, will solve all the ills of the earth. Sickness, death, crime, poverty, hunger, pain,
its a fundamental biblical doctrine, yes.
> Are one united brotherhood of all the nations around the earth.
check the unity the day when the wtg lifts the threat of disfellowshipping as soon as someone doesnt believe their writings.
> They all speak in agreement about the Bible.
see above.
> Do not celebrate pagan holidays.
jws do celebrate. they celebrate a altered last supper, they celebrate weddings with a lot of pagan traditions (white dress, rings, cake, etc)
> Where is a group of people who embodies all this as a group?? I will go there.
I dont know. Its not the jehovahs witnesses i realized. it was hard to accept. maybe such an organization doesnt exist atm. i mean it didnt exist 200 years ago too. but theres one person who is always there: jesus christ.
and there you are: dont add stuff to the bible, dont follow humans, noone is lord over your faith except jesus christ.
dont be fooled, pal. im still a jehovahs witness and i cant get out because of the consequences that threatens me the minute i would speak out what my conscience tells me. ive fear of man. im lying to myself and pretend to be a jw all day long. i hope god grants me the will to leave this false religion one time. and there are a lot like me in the congregations.
unity?
quote from warren,
"dont be fooled, pal. im still a jehovahs witness and i cant get out because of the consequences that threatens me the minute i would speak out what my conscience tells me. ive fear of man. im lying to myself and pretend to be a jw all day long. i hope god grants me the will to leave this false religion one time. and there are a lot like me in the congregations."
warren, i bet this statement was difficult for you to make, it shows your conscious is telling you something is very wrong. you have to trust in God to help you get out and that is a difficult concept because you have been lead to believe that is what you have been doing but your trust has been placed in the fear based watchtower, not a loving God.
the bible tells you not to fear man, so trust that, and also to run like hell from corrupt ungodly things, get out. LISTEN to your gut.
There is another option for those who are willing to truly question the path that they have been led down, and that is to consider that to seek truth in religious myth is an exhausting, endless, and to some to degree, fruitless endeavor.
If one takes the time to familiarize themselves with religious teachings of the world down through history, it is quite easy to see how each religion borrows from the past in a form that embraces the society at the time.
"Truth" is subjective, as one can see just by looking at the differing views of those who post, each sure that their view is 'correct' and 'the truth'. This is apparent at a macro view as well.
The org is not unlike any other fundamentalist religious group around the world: Extreme, exclusive, closed organizationally, authoritarian. Members that remain often do so because it appeals to their damaged psychological makeup such that they cling to it as they would a physically/emotionally abusive mate that refuses to leave because their mate really 'loves' them when they are not being abusive.
Individuals who leave abusive situations often find new partners who are abusive because they have not forced themselves to figure out why they were attracted to that type of relationship and figure out how to correct it.
Ex-JWs are often too quick to run into the arms of another religious group before they have the chance to critically examine the mythical background of christianity and other world religions. They then effectively jump from the pan into another, or even into the fire, although most churches would be an upgrade to mental health compared to the org.
A real reach, one that not everyone may be ready to grasp, is that their is no god other than the one that man has constructed and modified over time. This hypothesis fits the data of religious behavior over time infinitely better than any concepts of Zeus, jahweh, Thor, Dionysus (our Jesus).
The reality is that the choices are practically infinite for those who leave the org and they should not be content to choose merely from those who claim to have 'the truth' in christianity. Take a step above those desperate, shrieking cries of supposed salvation to see the bigger picture: the true power and strength of man which is construction.
Best regards
Hey Warren.
This site needs an enema.
an enema?
NO don't do it!
we would loose rondie.
:0
hey warren:
"> Jehovah is God
everyone teaches that. many just dont use "jehovah" in the greek scriptures, because theres no real evidence that it was ever in it."
So what of it? Psalms 83:18 is enough to know that Jehovah is the most high.
"but this isnt a sign of the one true religion (that they change a part of the bible i.e.). dont you have faith that god can watch over the bible himself?"
The one true religion would worship the one true God.
"> Jesus is God's Son
even believers in the trinity believe that. every christian beleive it. this is a doctrine question. not a sign of the one true religion."
Not so. Trinitarians do not believe that Jesus is God's son, they believe he is God.
"> When you die, you are asleep.
almost every christian believe that. its what happening after death whats interesting."
That is what he was talking about.
" some think all get ressurected to heaven."
That is mistaken as that is nowhere near God's purpose for humanity.
"jws believe only a part gets immediately resurrected to heaven. have you recognized that jws beliee that some of them which are dead are possibly in heaven as angels NOW?"
Not as angels, but better. That is the first resurrection.
"> There is no Hell fire.
again, just an interpretional matter. theres evidence for hell in the bible."
Sure there is hell, sheol, hades, the grave. But not hellfire.
" jesus talked about it, satan gets thrown into it. in contrary jesus said the dead are asleep. theres no easy answer."
Satan gets thrown into the lake of fire, that is not hell.
"> Christians must keep seperate from this world. So we are neutral.
yes, jesus said that. so why does the wtg get involved with the UN? "
I do work for the government and use their resources and libraries.
That does not make me part of the world, contrary to Jesus.
"so why did they encouraged their brothers to fight in WW1? yes, its true, check the old watchtowers. so what does it really mean to be "seperate"?"
No one encouraged anyone to fight in WWI. And that was a small segment of Christianity, not Christianity as a whole.
"> Christians will not go to war or participate in any of the nations conflicts or politics!
So why did the jws protest for religion freedom with strong political (not biblical) messages in france? "
That is not participating in politics, that is seeing that the constitution that guaratees freedom of religion is fulfilled.
"why do they seek governmental privileges by sueing the goverments? why printing open letters to the heads of state? isnt this getting involved in politics? why dont they trust on god?"
That is not getting involved in politics but seeing that the regular human rights are fulfilled.
"> Preach the good news of the Kingdom
the catholic church as an example did it very well and more effectively as the witnesses. "
The Catholic church has no idea what the kingdom is.
"nowhere in the bible its said that EVERY christian has to go from house to house, in fact some christian of the first century didnt go preaching."
You are right. But we don't say that everyone has to go. But it is hard to give talks excluding people by name. We encourage everyone to focus on the preaching within their circumstances.
"> Do not have a paid clergy class.
we dont? who are the guys at bethel, who decide about human rules and doctrine?"
Bethel is not a paid clergy, they just get room and board covered.
And I have yet to see any rules and doctrines from them.
"> Are one united brotherhood of all the nations around the earth.
check the unity the day when the wtg lifts the threat of disfellowshipping as soon as someone doesnt believe their writings."
There is no disfellowshipping for not believing their writings, only for causing divisions in the congregation.
"> Do not celebrate pagan holidays.
jws do celebrate. they celebrate a altered last supper, "
No, it is not altered. Jesus instructed the 11 apostles to celebrate. They did. Anyone after does so out of their own choice.
"they celebrate weddings with a lot of pagan traditions (white dress, rings, cake, etc)"
That is their choice, not pagan tradition.
White dresses look best.
Rings are required.
Cake is good.
JWs are the true religion.
Ray Franz said so.
Warren said
"im still a jehovahs witness and i cant get out because of the consequences that threatens me the minute i would speak out what my conscience tells me."
Why would one want to get out?
What is so difficult about attending meetings twice a week and preaching the good news?
If you don't understand things, then we can dialogue.
You all guys like to yak yak yak on this site.
is there any benefits of coming here to yak yak?
no need to answer if you are sincere and really looking for the truth you will find it so why yak yak yak?
if you are not sincere you will always find something to say against the Jehovah Witnesses, it was the same for Jesus. Despite all Jesus miracles and teachings many were very critical of Jesus.
if there any witnesses in here why yak yak yak, there is no need to answer, I am going to do like Defender, no need to come here to yak yak yak it is not worth it.
use this time to study instead of coming here, we have good instructions coming from the governing body that still helping us in this critical life, go study.
STOP WASTING YOUR TIME
you well know like the bible say
the sincere ones will become witnesses, and you well know the end is coming soon, whatever these apostates are saying they cannot stop the fufillment of God's Purpose.
so STOP YAK YAK
'use this time to study instead of coming here, we have good instructions coming from the governing body'
Yes, study the history of the Society from documented evidence. THE FACTS. Is the history relevant? Maybe you think not. But if you set it side by side with the Proclaimers book, you will see how the Society have massaged their history.
If your best friend lies to you and is dishonest, will you take what he says at face value ever again. Especially if he loudly proclaims ALL the time that he is the most trustworthy person in the world. That makes his deceit all the worse.
The Society have been dishonest, they have lied about their reason for affiliation with the UN, and they have blamed the brothers for their mistakes. Most of the 'new light' now is all about avoiding lawsuits or paying taxes...their stance on blood and neutrality, the 'simplification' of not charging for literature, all sugar coated with 'Jehovah's blessing'.
They are like whitewashed graves and I feel sorry for the poor trusting brothers and sisters following their commands and pharasaical rules.
I am impressed that active JDubs are visiting such "apostate" pages!
Thats why I created a blog to declare that Iam PROUD to be an Apostate of the WTS
http://i-am-an-apostate.blogspot.com
Steve said:
"study the history of the Society from documented evidence."
Why? Because John Edwards had an affair and Bill Clinton was impeached, does that mean that the constitution is no longer valid?
Does anything in the history of the USA, such as slavery, interring the Japanese, etc invalidate the constitution?
Think about it? There are things above humans, such as the bible and the constitution.
"Is the history relevant? Maybe you think not. But if you set it side by side with the Proclaimers book, you will see how the Society have massaged their history."
Which proclaimers book?
"The Society have been dishonest, they have lied about their reason for affiliation with the UN,"
How do you know that? The Society is a printing company. It can not lie. The people working there can and they have not lied.
"and they have blamed the brothers for their mistakes."
Well, who else is to blame?
"their stance on blood and neutrality, the 'simplification' of not charging for literature, all sugar coated with 'Jehovah's blessing'."
And your point is what? Is any of that bad? I don't see it as bad.
Apollo said:
"I am impressed that active JDubs are visiting such "apostate" pages!"
Well, I am just imitating Jesus.
Luke 5:30
"Why is it YOU eat and drink with tax collectors and sinners?” 31 In reply Jesus said to them: “Those who are healthy do not need a physician, but those who are ailing do. 32 I have come to call, not righteous persons, but sinners to repentance.”"
"Thats why I created a blog to declare that Iam PROUD to be an Apostate of the WTS"
How does one rebel against a printing company?
I am proud to be one of Jehovah's Witnesses because I despise apostates.
'Which proclaimers book?'
'Jehovah's Witnesses, Proclaimers of God's Kingdom' known amongst Jehovah's Witnesses as the Proclaimers Book. I would expect any English speaking JW to know that.
'How do you know that? The Society is a printing company. It can not lie. The people working there can and they have not lied.'
Stop splitting hairs. Again all JWs know what you mean when you talk about the Society and the Watchtower... The Governing Body, the Ones that write the literature, the powers that be that guide the Organization. You keep harping on and on about it on every thread, as a way to avoid answering the charges against it. Either that or you plainly dont understand what the rest of those posting on here, JWs and others alike are talking about, which makes it highly likely that you are not a JW at all.
"their stance on blood and neutrality, the 'simplification' of not charging for literature, all sugar coated with 'Jehovah's blessing'."
'And your point is what? Is any of that bad? I don't see it as bad.'
You conveniently left out the reason WHY these things have changed... to avoid lawsuits...its about money. It wouldnt even be so bad if they came out and stated that, but they just have to lie and say that with the simplification, for instance, that they are now a benevolent Organization giving out lifes water free, when it really has to do with getting out of paying taxes.
As for neutrality and blood.... thousands have died unnecessarily because of the hard and fast rules that were laid down before the changes. The Governing Body will have to answer to God for that.
That is why its BAD.
Steve said:
"'Which proclaimers book?'
'Jehovah's Witnesses, Proclaimers of God's Kingdom' known amongst Jehovah's Witnesses as the Proclaimers Book. I would expect any English speaking JW to know that."
Oh, that old thing. I prefer the new and updated one on the internet.
"Stop splitting hairs. Again all JWs know what you mean when you talk about the Society and the Watchtower... The Governing Body, the Ones that write the literature,"
And what do they have to do with us?
At the congregations, there is a meeting called 'local needs'. The Watchtower study is really a global needs. Thus it is not the Society or the Governing body, but the overseers of the Christian Congregation of JWs.
"You keep harping on and on about it on every thread, as a way to avoid answering the charges against it."
Because the overseers of the worldwide congregation are as irrelevant as the overseers of the local congregation.
I do not ask the local overseers for advice on everything. They give direction on congregational matters, but other than that we live our lives as individuals. Something you do not understand.
" Either that or you plainly dont understand what the rest of those posting on here, JWs and others alike are talking about, which makes it highly likely that you are not a JW at all."
I have a great understanding of what it means to be a JW. It is what I want it to be because I determine what my life is... oh with the help of the great Potter.
Ever listen to that assembly part from the latest Special Assembly day? If not you ought to. Since you are so fixated on the Governing body, you ought to listen to Anthony Morris' version. It is excellent.
"You conveniently left out the reason WHY these things have changed... to avoid lawsuits...its about money. "
So what of it?
"It wouldnt even be so bad if they came out and stated that, but they just have to lie and say that with the simplification, for instance, that they are now a benevolent Organization giving out lifes water free, when it really has to do with getting out of paying taxes."
You are wrong again.
Not charging for literature does not affect the Watchtower Society as they would be wholesalers. The congregations would have to collect sales tax, not pay it as they would be wholesaler too. The final user, the publishers or public would have to pay it and that would be a major pain in the ass. Thus it is simplification to the max.
"As for neutrality and blood.... thousands have died unnecessarily because of the hard and fast rules that were laid down before the changes."
Good. We, and everyone should resist the government's brutality.
And the JWs sticking together against blood transfusions has forced better medical practices and non-blood surgery. Think about it.
" The Governing Body will have to answer to God for that."
And they have and Jehovah has blessed them for that.
Oh the other hand, ask Starsky what is bad. Starsky????
Yes, Starsky, aka Paul Michael Glaser.
On the Apprentice, I heard about the Elizabeth Glaser Pediatric AIDS Foundation. That is Paul Micahel's Wife. The website said
"In 1981, Elizabeth Glaser was infected with the AIDS virus through a blood transfusion, and unknowingly passed it on to both of her children."
"Elizabeth Glaser was rushed to Cedars-Sinai Medical Center, hemorrhaging heavily in her ninth month. Doctors safely delivered her daughter. But Elizabeth's bleeding wouldn't stop. And, for the next four hours, she was transfused with seven pints of blood. Elizabeth, who also tested HIV positive, had passed the virus to Ariel and their 1 1/2-year-old son. "
The website continues "Tragically, the Glasers' story is not all that uncommon anymore. Across the country, there are hundreds of AIDS families, people whose lives have been invaded by a deadly enemy not through drug abuse or homosexual contact, but through a simple blood transfusion. Although Elizabeth has worked diligently and effectively behind the scenes for AIDS education and research, the family would not be going public now, but for the circumstance of their celebrity.'"
Our preaching and obedience to God prevents that from happening to us, and our sticking together has encouraged bloodless centers to keep that from happening to others.
Blood is bad.
This is a post from a typical JW on this site:http://www.city-data.com/forum/
religion-philosophy/204062-news-
jehovahs-witness-leukemia-
patient-post2496445.html#post2496445
'I have been born and raised a JW,
my father is an Elder, most of my family are in the truth.
Taking a blood transfusion is a very serious matter, the society teaches us that we must obtsain from blood even in life threatening circumstances.
If one chooses to go against the faithful and discreet slave and accepts a blood transfusion, then they are basically putting their salvation in jeopardy.
I always try to follow Jehovah's organization, they may not always be perfectly right, but then again what religion is perfect?'
Notice references to 'The Society teaches'...'follow Jehovah's Organization'...'Go against the faithful and discreet slave.'...So JWs dont use these phrases or 'worry' about the Society?
Maybe you should read the whole thread. There are some good arguments on there against the JWs stance on blood.
BTW, I would not take blood unless it was a last resort. But I am not arguing against that, only that the JWs have it wrong and it has potentially cost many lives.
Steve,
One of Jehovah's Witnesses did not post that.
That person sounds more right wing than Rush does.
No Witness would say "the society teaches us that we must obtsain from blood even in life threatening circumstances."
"But I am not arguing against that, only that the JWs have it wrong and it has potentially cost many lives."
Potentially... is the word.
No lives have been lost because of it.
With reference to the above comment by Ronde, one of Jehovah's Witnesses did not post that.
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