Monday, August 18, 2008

Salvation

The Watchtower's View of Salvation
"If we hope to win eventual salvation, we must submit to a test of endurance as part of the necessary preperation for salvation." WT11/1/1991, p.9
"But if we were to draw away from Jehovah's organization, there would be no place else to go for salvation and true joy."WT 9/15/1993, p. 22 {What happened to God's son Jesus?}
"Jehovah's organization as directed by his 'faithful and discreet slave' class should influence our every decision also. How may we avail ourselves of this good influence? By doing personal research in the Bible publications of the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society on whatever subject our decision concerns. This always proves to be a real aid in making clear to us the Bible principles involved and their application to our lives." {WT Oct 15 1998}
"The Bible is organization-minded and it cannot be fully understood without our having the theocratic organization in mind." WT9/1/1954, p. 549 {In other words, you are to stupid to understand the Bible with the help of God and the Holy Spirit, so you better listen to the WTorganization for accurate Bible interpretation}
The Bible View of Salvation
Acts 4:12. "Neither is there salvation in any other for there is none other name under heaven given among men. whereby we must be saved."
Acts 16:31. "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.'
John 5:24, "He that heareth my Word, and believeth on Him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."
John 3:16-"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, buthave eternal life."
Question: Does the Bible indicate that one's salvation is dependent upon his obediance to an earthly organization?
Answer: One's salvation is dependent upon his obediance to the sayings of Jesus Christ.

No where in the Bible does it even hint that we should obey a religion or organization. Religions and organization are man made and controlled institutions.

21 comments:

frank said...

Keep yakee yak

you left a few things out.
John 3:36 we must obey Jesus to have everlasting life.
are you obeying the real Jesus, the one inferior to his DAD?


we must have faith in the real Jesus to be save.

one more in the first century Jesus disciples were organized,
To learn about the real Jesus you had to be part of The true organization in the first century.

Acts 15 read the whole chapter

1 Corinthians 1:10

Hebrew 10:24, 25

an organization existed in the first century.
God's true servants did not serve him the way they want, the way that please them.

they all follow instructions coming from The Governing Body in Jerusalem.

those who refused to follow instructions from the Governing Body in Jerusalem were Apostates.

Romans 16:17, 18

keep yakee yak, yakeeeeeeeeeeeee, yakkkkkkkkkkkk

Governing Body Letters said...

The fallacy in the idea of a Governing Body in the first century is simple: All early Christians claimed to be individually led by holy spirit, so trying to lead them was like herding cats. Paul claimed his apostolic appointment without reference to anybody in Jerusalem -and he, in turn, had lots of trouble with congregations ignoring his "authority" because they felt just as led by Holy Spirit as he did.
There simply was no governing body in the primitive church in the way that the JWs claim, there certainly was no body of 10 or 20 men that claimed absolute authority (and monopoly over all teaching and doctrine) over the church and expelled anyone that challenged their authority.
This is a mythical creation of the Watchtower to justify a centralised control system in what is obviously a manmade and man controlled and directed organisation. The notion of a "first century governing body" cannot survive a simple reading of Galatians.
The only arrangement in the Church was for elders/minsters(or whatever you want to translate them to) and they were there to upbuild and serve - not to dominate and rule. Think about the time period, the travel available. There were not any jets or fed fex. Paul stopped by a couple times and that was it. These congregation were on their own.

Governing Body Letters said...

Antioch commissioned Paul, not Jerusalem. Jerusalem was notified of Paul's activity, but Paul was starting congregations throughout the Gentile lands without visiting anyone other than Peter and briefly meeting James in 17 years.
There was no central governing authority.
Indeed no one was looking up to a Governing Body for new light and meat in due season since the Holy Spirit was sharing gifts to all such as revelations of knowledge. Let's not also forget that Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD and there could not have been any so called Governing Body operating there after that date anyway.

frank said...

yea right kee yakee yak

to answer that just read
Acts 15 :1, 2

And certain men came down from Ju·de´a and began to teach the brothers: “Unless YOU get circumcised according to the custom of Moses, YOU cannot be saved.” 2 But when there had occurred no little dissension and disputing by Paul and Bar´na·bas with them, they arranged for Paul and Bar´na·bas and some others of them to go up to the apostles and older men in Jerusalem regarding this dispute.

Did Paul tried to resolve this problem himself?
you know the answer.

these congregations were on their own think again yakee yak

Acts 16:4
4 Now as they traveled on through the cities they would deliver to those there for observance the decrees that had been decided upon by the apostles and older men who were in Jerusalem. 5 Therefore, indeed, the congregations continued to be made firm in the faith and to increase in number from day to day.

1 timothy 1:20
holding faith and a good conscience, which some have thrust aside and have experienced shipwreck concerning [their] faith. 20 Hy·me·nae´us and Alexander belong to these, and I have handed them over to Satan that they may be taught by discipline not to blaspheme.

was paul a dictator?

Paul say in Romans 16:17
17Now I urge you, brethren, keep your eye on those who cause dissensions and hindrances contrary to the teaching which you learned, and turn away from them.



oh I thought you was talking about Jesus.
you need to know the real Jesus to be save, oh oh oh! did you swallow your tongue on that information?

Anonymous said...

berty

@frank your way of preaching is amazing.
What a Christlike way to "preach" by saying

"oh I thought you was talking about Jesus.
you need to know the real Jesus to be save, oh oh oh! did you swallow your tongue on that information?"

First of all by commenting here you violate what the WT says about not visiting apostate places and if your organization new you are frequenting such places you would be disfellowshiped as apostate.

kimmy jo said...

The watchtower has put itself in the position of Christ. In other words it has become the mediator between God and man.

The bible never says that man would find salvation in man, in fact it warns against doing that.

The watchtower, which leads the Jehovah witnesses has become their Christ. The watchtower is a Jehovah witnesses only salvation. That is undeniable.

Frank,
Is the "yak, yak" comments some form speaking tongues? or are you mocking the humble yak animal? or do you find you have nothing intelligent to say???? maybe it is a character flaw.

Governing Body Letters said...

Frank, Paul and some of the other men only went to Jerusalem to discuss the circumcision issue because it was in Jerusalem that the controversy started. They did not go to get a ruling on it, but they went to discuss the matter to see if they could come to some consensus. Paul showed consideration for the others by not resolving the matter himself. Of course, using the New World Translation of the Bible would confuse anyone regarding the circumstances we are discussing here. Why don't you get yourself a King James Version of the Bible and read from that? Again, there was no organization in first century Jerusalem. That is a falsehood perpetrated by the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses.

Governing Body Letters said...

"Acts 16:4
4 Now as they traveled on through the cities they would deliver to those there for observance the decrees that had been decided upon by the apostles and older men who were in Jerusalem."
----------------

Frank, notice that Paul delivered for OBSERVANCE the decrees that had been decided upon. You noticed that he did not support it’s contents as a doctrinal mandate, but it was done to keep the peace between such Jews and Gentiles. So it was not a doctrinal issue and something that had a bearing on their salvation.

zepa said...

WELL SAID "governing body letters"!!!!!!!!

As an ex-JW, I must say that my past experience has certainly taught me that there is a VAST distinction between religion and spirituality and that the institutionalization of spirituality leads to powerful hierarchical structures that enforce allegiance through segregation and adherence to dogmatic belief systems.

In "The Myth of Certainty: The Reflective Christian & the Risk of Commitment" (InteVarsity Press, 1986, 1992) pp.29-30 Professor Daniel Taylor warns:
"The primary goal of all institutions and subcultures is SELF-PRESERVATION. Preserving the faith is central to God's plan for human history; preserving particular religious institutions is not. Do not expect those who run the institutions to be sensitive to the difference. God needs no particular person, church, denomination, creed or organization to accomplish his purpose…"

WHAT A LIBERATING THOUGHT!!!!!

It has been even more liberating to realize that in reality, the Watchtower Society is just a standard company with a Charter incorporated in America and that it is just a worldly corporation run by a progression of men. Like any company, its foremost concern is ultimately growth and financial viability, achieved through book sales and donations.

BLESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS.

One love from Irie Jamaica.

frank said...

Acts 16:4
4 Now as they traveled on through the cities they would deliver to those there for observance the decrees that had been decided upon by the apostles and older men who were in Jerusalem. 5 Therefore, indeed, the congregations continued to be made firm in the faith and to increase in number from day to day.

only one question for all of you unbelievers
why is it that the congregations did not decide for themselve, why did they have to go to Jerusalem for the disicion?

nothing else to say.

Anonymous said...

To say that Jehovah's Witnesses use the Watchtower magazines as a channel to God is a ridiculous lie. Anyone who can say that with a straight face either is ignorant or blatantly dishonest. Try reading any recent issue to see that The Watchtower is announcing Jehovah's (God) Kingdom, with Jesus Christ (the Son) as King, and that our prayers to God must be made in Jesus' name. We don't pray, "in the name of the Watchtower, amen".

What I cannot understand no matter how hard I try to to figure it out is why those who have decided to leave the Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses because they can't stand the supposed "hypocrisy", can't stand personalities within the congregation, can't stand to live by Bible standards, have decided to be disfellowshipped instead of mending their bad ways...all of these people just can't seem to stay away from Jehovah's Witnesses! If JWs are so awful and bad, why are you stalking them? You should be able to walk away, put it behind you, and do what you want with your lives. And please don't use the lame excuse that you are leaving behind family, friends, don't have any friends, no way to earn a living, etc. Obviously that's not taking responsibility for your own decisions! Grow UP! Own your choices and decisions, and stop blaming your failures on perceived or even real wrongs committed by others.
Oh, I just thought of one reason: because they want to tear down the faith of people, perhaps drawing unwitting and unsuspecting people to follow after them but without having any alternative hope for the future to offer. That's how you can recognize motive for what it truly is: BAD.

Anonymous said...

Zepa quoted: In "The Myth of Certainty: The Reflective Christian & the Risk of Commitment" (InteVarsity Press, 1986, 1992) pp.29-30 Professor Daniel Taylor warns:
"The primary goal of all institutions and subcultures is SELF-PRESERVATION. Preserving the faith is central to God's plan for human history; preserving particular religious institutions is not. Do not expect those who run the institutions to be sensitive to the difference. God needs no particular person, church, denomination, creed or organization to accomplish his purpose…"

So a human professor's opinion takes precedence over God's word? Consider the following:
(Isaiah 43:10-11) 10 “YOU are my witnesses,” is the utterance of Jehovah, “even my servant whom I have chosen, in order that YOU may know and have faith in me, and that YOU may understand that I am the same One. Before me there was no God formed, and after me there continued to be none. 11 I—I am Jehovah, and besides me there is no savior.” (Jehovah God himself says he has a servant, and is he not the one to say how they should be organized?)


(Hebrews 10:24-25) 24 And let us consider one another to incite to love and fine works, 25 not forsaking the gathering of ourselves together, as some have the custom, but encouraging one another, and all the more so as YOU behold the day drawing near. (This certainly implies gathering together in some kind of organized fashion…see the scripture below)

(1 Corinthians 14:33) 33 For God is [a God], not of disorder, but of peace. (Does this mean God might actually want things to be organized to accomplish peace? Imagine what it would be like to drive down a street with no traffic laws, no traffic lights, no organized traffic patterns….)

(1 Peter 2:17) 17 Honor [men] of all sorts, have love for the whole association of brothers, be in fear of God, have honor for the king. (Hmmm…an “association” of brothers…)

(1 Corinthians 1:10) 10 Now I exhort YOU, brothers, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ that YOU should all speak in agreement, and that there should not be divisions among YOU, but that YOU may be fitly united in the same mind and in the same line of thought. (See 1 Corinthians 14:33)

(Matthew 24:14) 14 And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come. (Yeah, I can see this work getting down with any organization at all. Even a charity event has to have an organizer.)

Please feel free to look these scriptures up in other Bible translations....

Governing Body Letters said...

..... perhaps drawing unwitting and unsuspecting people to follow after them but without having any alternative hope for the future to offer.
----------
That's really funny. You read that in a Watchtower magazine didn't you? The Watchtower often says that those who leave the organization want to form their own cult and draw people after them. Well, rest assured that I have no plans to draw anyone after me and I have no desire to form my own cult. I do not engage in bad behavior and I lobr God and his son Jesus Christ. I do not need an imperfect organization to tell me what they think is right and wrong. My faith is just between myself and my God.

Governing Body Letters said...

Zepa quoted: In "The Myth of Certainty: The Reflective Christian & the Risk of Commitment" (InteVarsity Press, 1986, 1992) pp.29-30 Professor Daniel Taylor warns:
"The primary goal of all institutions and subcultures is SELF-PRESERVATION. Preserving the faith is central to God's plan for human history; preserving particular religious institutions is not. Do not expect those who run the institutions to be sensitive to the difference. God needs no particular person, church, denomination, creed or organization to accomplish his purpose…"

------------------
Actually his word is not more reliable that God's. However, I would take his word over that of the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses any day and that is what he was talking about. Not God's word but the words of an imperfect, man made organization who claims to speak in Jehovah's name.
The Bible mentions the word servant. But who is that servant? Who is it referring to? Do you know?

Tom Rook said...

Watchtower Bible and Tract Society is a money grubbing publishing company?

I have seen them send tons bibles, and bible literature to Bethel in Peru for free .... I helped build the facility for free. It cost me $1400 of my own money to get to Peru to help build the facility...26 years ago.

This 'money grubbing' society is a society that prints stuff to tell people the Great Truths about Jehovah, Christ Jesus, and God's Kingdom. They have never in their history taken up a collection, as I saw when I attended other churches.

But to preach around the globe a billion hours of the Good News takes more than just a grin and clean underwear.

That is why executives have private jets, etc...so they can work while they fly. If I had a limosine and a driver, it would be to get work done while I burn time going somewhere.

I have my issues with the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, but realize that the clowns and buffoons, bullies and tyrants are in the minority (It is hard work), but I often think "If I was a United States Marine, would the officers be better?...) My educated guess would be ....NO.

Yes, they exude arrogance, and I cringe at the drivel that substitutes for logic, but the fact of the matter is .... if it were not for these "Earthlings: big ugly bags of mostly water" being directed by God ... I would still think God was part of a trinity, which makes no sense at all... people would be tortured by an insane petulant, sadistic God in a hell instead of being ignored when they die, and the list goes on and on...and on and on.

The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society is supposed to be the servants of Jehovah God, and Jehovah's Witnesses.

Try doing that with only a grin and clean underwear.

Grow up....get a tough skin ... as Chief Dan George once said in a Clint Eastwood movie, I think it was Outlaw Josey Wales..."remember to endeavor to persevere".

I can ignore my enemies....I endure my friends.

Tom.Rook@Technik-SA.US

kimmy jo said...

zepa...your comments are right on.

tom rook...the watchtower used to sell their goods as you know, now they are into real estate and conning everyone out of their life savings. no there are no collection plates, BIG DEAL, there is however, pressure, by way of talks, to put money in the boxes in the back. You know the "official"talk every so often about the congregation bills and costly projects, and the give first, your best to God talk and the love of money is bad talk...due to a law suit they have recently had to fixed there money making scheme with each individual congregation deed.

Anonymous said...

"That's really funny. You read that in a Watchtower magazine didn't you? The Watchtower often says that those who leave the organization want to form their own cult and draw people after them. Well, rest assured that I have no plans to draw anyone after me and I have no desire to form my own cult. I do not engage in bad behavior and I lobr God and his son Jesus Christ. I do not need an imperfect organization to tell me what they think is right and wrong. My faith is just between myself and my God."

No, I didn't get those words from a Watchtower. They came from my own brain. And I still see from the words above that you have nothing better to offer. You have formed your own mini-cult of mimics. And how's that "faith just between myself and my God" working out for you? Happy, are you? Your extreme efforts to promote, at the minimum, misinformation, and at worst, lies, tell a different story. I think I'm hearing "gnashing of teeth" here.

BTW, the yobos who call themselves Jehovah's Witnesses and then act like ignorant idiots are the bane of all thinking humans, including other Jehovah's Witnesses. Every organized group has some who aren't the best example of the group. Please know that they are not any less responsible before Jehovah God for any ungodly contact they engage in.

kimmy jo said "the watchtower used to sell their goods as you know, now they are into real estate and conning everyone out of their life savings."

Baloney. Jehovah's Witnesses did used to ask for contributions to help defray the cost of printing and distribution of their literature. The most "expensive" book was the Bible for 1.00. Watchtower and Awake magazines were a quarter. Wow, like that was really going to make a lot of money. And it didn't. Jehovah's Witnesses use their own personal funds to pay for fuel for their cars to do the preaching work. They donate willingly and anonymously to the world wide work and also to support their local Kingdom Halls. To avoid the precise accustion above our literature is now, and has been for years, offered at no cost, and if the person being called on wants to contribute, we do accept it gladly and put the money toward the worldwide work.

As far as real estate goes...the WTBS many, many years ago acquired land in Brooklyn...buildings that were run down and even unusable at the time of purchase. This property was purchased in the interests of procured for the purpose of having a place for printing Bibles and Bible-based literature as well as housing the volunteers who left home and secular jobs affordable housing to accomplish their volunteer work. In the years since then the buildings have been improved using WILLINGLY CONTRIBUTED funds and WILLINGLY DONATED LABOR. In the last 40 - 50 years the property has greatly increased in value. Hasn't all real estate in the New York boroughs increased in value? Since they now want to move most printery operations out of the city to combine it with the learning centers, and have sold some real estate holdings at a profit, suddenly that is a problem for certain people. Why should it be? This is a non-issue. And any profits realized will NOT go in the pockets of any member of the Christian Congregation, but will go toward printing more Bibles in more languages, or perhaps helping to send missionaries abroad, or building badly needed Kingdom Halls in areas where the local congregation cannot afford to build their own, and YES, disaster relief.

Furthermore, there are many, many people (unfortunately I am not one) who have large sums of money and/or property they have accrued. It is completely up to them to whom or what they bequeath their funds. There are NOT members of the real governing body or their representatives going around to the elderly tricking them into donating their life savings. That statement is ridiculous and UNTRUE...libelous, in fact. This is a perfect example of a person with bad motives regurgitating lies they've heard from other people who have no scruples about telling lies.

IF I had a decent estate and had taken care of the needs of my family, I would gladly donate it all to the Christian Congregation. Why is that worse that donating it to a charity of my choice? The point is, it is a choice, and the giver's RIGHT to give things to whom he/she wishes.

None of the real Governing Body or the people who volunteer at Bethel draw a fat salary; they live (all of them) in modest accommodations.

You should be careful, very careful, about working against the interests of Christ and his Kindom. Please carefully read the scipture below (in your preferred translation of the Bible) and be sure not to miss the point of what it is saying:
(Acts 5:34-39) 34 But a certain man rose in the San′he·drin, a Pharisee named Ga·ma′li·el, a Law teacher esteemed by all the people, and gave the command to put the men outside for a little while. 35 And he said to them: “Men of Israel, pay attention to yourselves as to what YOU intend to do respecting these men. 36 For instance, before these days Theu′das rose, saying he himself was somebody, and a number of men, about four hundred, joined his party. But he was done away with, and all those who were obeying him were dispersed and came to nothing. 37 After him Judas the Gal·i·le′an rose in the days of the registration, and he drew off people after him. And yet that man perished, and all those who were obeying him were scattered abroad. 38 And so, under the present circumstances, I say to YOU, Do not meddle with these men, but let them alone; (because, if this scheme or this work is from men, it will be overthrown; 39 but if it is from God, YOU will not be able to overthrow them;) otherwise, YOU may perhaps be found fighters actually against God.”

Very serious food for thought....

Anonymous said...

gbl said: Why don't you get yourself a King James Version of the Bible and read from that? Again, there was no organization in first century Jerusalem. That is a falsehood perpetrated by the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses.

Okay, here you go:
Hebrews 10:24-35 (King James Version)
24: And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
25: Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
(This certainly implies gathering together in some kind of organized fashion…see the scripture below)

1 Corinthians 10:33
33: For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. (Does this mean God might actually want things to be organized to accomplish peace? Imagine what it would be like to drive down a street with no traffic laws, no traffic lights, no organized traffic patterns….)

1 Peter 2:17
17: Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king. (Hmmm…an “association” of brothers…)

1 Corinthians 1:10
10: Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
(See 1 Corinthians 14:33)

Matthew 24:14
14: And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. (Yeah, I can see this work getting down without any organization at all. Even a charity event has to have an organizer.)

Imagine that! The King James Version indicates that God used (and uses) an organization!

Anonymous said...

And finally, straight from the King James Version:

Acts 5:34-39

34: Then stood there up one in the council, a Pharisee, named Gamaliel, a doctor of the law, had in reputation among all the people, and commanded to put the apostles forth a little space;
35: And said unto them, Ye men of Israel, take heed to yourselves what ye intend to do as touching these men.
36: For before these days rose up Theudas, boasting himself to be somebody; to whom a number of men, about four hundred, joined themselves: who was slain; and all, as many as obeyed him, were scattered, and brought to nought.
37: After this man rose up Judas of Galilee in the days of the taxing, and drew away much people after him: he also perished; and all, even as many as obeyed him, were dispersed.
38: And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought:
39: But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.

What do you know!! The KJV carries the same message as the NWT! Be very careful....

Anonymous said...

What, no snappy comeback to the word of God?

Oh, wait, I suppose there will soon be a whole new list of false quotes from old Watchtower magazines, or half-true comments about what the Watchtower supposedly teaches, or how Jehovah's Witnesses don't use a "real" Bible, or have "changed" the Bible, or how the KJV is the real Bible, or how 7,000,000 Witnesses are a cult of ignorant fools, etc. BTW, the KJV version changed the Bible by leaving the Divine Name, Jehovah, out of the translation. How's that for nerve?

Anonymous said...

what difference would quotes from old watchtower magazines make? Shouldn't the truth remain the truth, regardless of time?