Thursday, August 28, 2008

Can A Child Molester Hold A Position of Authority In The Congregation?

w97 1/1 29 Let Us Abhor What Is Wicked
Depending on the law of the land where he lives, the molester may well have to serve a prison term or face other sanctions from the State. The congregation will not protect him from this. Moreover, the man has revealed a serious weakness that henceforth will have to be taken into account. If he seems to be repentant, he will be encouraged to make spiritual progress, share in the field service, even have parts in the Theocratic Ministry School and nonteaching parts in the Service Meeting. This does not mean, though, that he will qualify to serve in a position of responsibility in the congregation. What are the Scriptural reasons for this?For one thing, an elder must be “self-controlled.” (Titus 1:8) True, none of us have perfect self-control. (Romans 7:21-25) But a dedicated adult Christian who falls into the sin of child sexual abuse reveals an unnatural fleshly weakness. Experience has shown that such an adult may well molest other children. True, not every child molester repeats the sin, but many do. And the congregation cannot read hearts to tell who is and who is not liable to molest children again. (Jeremiah 17:9) Hence, Paul’s counsel to Timothy applies with special force in the case of baptized adults who have molested children: “Never lay your hands hastily upon any man; neither be a sharer in the sins of others.” (1 Timothy 5:22) For the protection of our children, a man known to have been a child molester does not qualify for a responsible position in the congregation. Moreover, he cannot be a pioneer or serve in any other special, full-time service.—Compare the principle at Exodus 21:28, 29.

CONFIDENTIAL
WATCHTOWER BIBLE AND TRACT SOCIETY OF NEW YORK, INC. 25 COLUMBIA HEIGHTS. BROOKLYN. NEW YORK 11201-2483. U.SA PHONE (718) 560-5000 BODY OF ELDERS
Dear Brothers: We have given consideration to your letter dated xxxxxx xx,xxxx, regarding Brother xxxx. Enclosed you will find an S-52 form showing the deletion of Brother xxxxxx as an elder. For good reason, the January 1,1997, issue of The Watchtower, page 29, states: "A dedicated adult Christian who falls into the sin of child sexual abuse reveals an unnatural fleshly weakness. Experience has shown that such an adult may well molest other children. True, not every child molester repeats the sin, but many do. And the congregation cannot read hearts to tell who is and who is not liable to molest children again. (Jeremiah 17:9) Hence, Paul's counsel to Timothy applies with special force in the case of baptized adults who have molested children. 'Never lay your hands hastily upon any man; neither be a sharer in the sins of others. , (I Timothy 5:22) For the protection of our children, a man known to have been a child molester does not qualify for a responsible position in the congregation."
Therefore, in the best interest the congregation and its members, neither the local congregation nor the Society should be viewed as delegating authority or position to one who is a known child molester.
Now that we have given careful and prayerful consideration to all the factors in the case of Brother xxxxx xxxxx, we believe that what is stated in the foregoing applies to him. Hence, you should not extend to him any specific responsibility that could be construed as an assigned duty, even though some assignments might be considered minor. He should not be used to handle accounts, literature, magazines, subscriptions, or territories. Nor would he be used as an attendant, microphone handler, to operate sound equipment, to represent the congregation in prayer, or to present "Announcements" on the Service Meeting. He would not be used as the reader at the Congregation Book Study or Watchtower Study, nor to conduct a meeting for field service. It would be advisable not to have a book study in his home. And, he would not qualify to auxiliary or regular pioneer. Whereas he could volunteer to assist with general care of the Kingdom Hall where he attends meetings, he could not be approved to work on other Kingdom Halls or Assembly Halls. He may give student talks on the Theocratic Ministry School and share in non-teaching parts on the Service Meeting, provided that his doing so will not be offensive to those in the congregation who know of his past wrongdoing.
Please be reminded of the following direction that appears in the Society's March 14, 1997, confidential letter to all bodies of elders regarding known child molesters: "Individuals who have manifested a weakness in this regard should be sensitive to their need not to be alone with children. They should refrain from holding children or displaying other forms of affection for them. It would be appropriate for elders to give kindly cautions to any who are doing things that may be a temptation or a cause for concern to others in the congregation." (1 Corinthians 10:12,32) This would include not allowing children (other than his own) to spend the night in his home, not working in field service with a child, not cultivating friendships with children, and the like.
After a number of additional years have gone by, you may wonder whether certain privileges can be extended to this brother. If he has continued to build a commendable record, if there are no complaints either by his victim(s) or by relatives, and if the body of elders concludes that no one would find fault with his being given extra privileges of a minor nature in the congregation, you may write the Society and make known your observations and recommendations, indicating how you feel he can be used in the congregation. Explain clearly what the current feeling is toward him on the part of the one(s) he wronged and by relatives, and how the congregation views him now. Direction from the Society should be obtained before certain privileges are extended to him. Along with this letter we send you our warm Christian love. Your brothers, Watchtower Bible and Tract Society Of New York, Inc.

88 comments:

frank said...

Do you want to know the truth More Reading on that subject.

Do Jehovah's Witnesses allow former child molesters to be servants in the congregation?

If so, wouldn't this be similar to what the Catholic church and other churches have done in transferring their priests or clergymen to a different area where no one knows about their past sins of abuse? That is what some opposers claim. But notice the real Watchtower policy:

"Even if he is repentant—is cut to the heart and is thus resolutely determined to avoid such conduct in the future—what was stated in the January 1, 1997, issue of The Watchtower applies. The article said: "For the protection of our children, A MAN KNOWN TO HAVE BEEN A CHILD MOLESTER DOES NOT QUALIFY FOR RESPONSIBLE POSITION IN THE CONGREGATION.
Moreover, he cannot be a pioneer [full-time missionary of Jehovah's Witnesses] or SERVE IN ANY OTHER SPECIAL FULL TIME SERVICE." He would not qualify Scripturally. (1 Timothy 3:2, 7-10) We take such action because we are concerned with maintaining Bible standards and PROTECTING OUR CHILDREN. Everyone in our organization is expected to meet the same requirements, namely, to be clean physically, mentally, morally, and spiritually.—2 Corinthians 7:1; Ephesians 4:17-19; 1 Thessalonians 2:4."

No, former molesters cannot be appointed as servants in the congregation for the rest of their lives and those who have been proven to be molesters are certainly not transferred to another congregation to continue to serve as an elder or ministerial servant.

But WHAT ABOUT EXTENDING OTHER MINOR PRIVILEGES IN THE CONGREGATION?

Note this 2000 letter concerning former molesters: "Hence, you should not extend to him any specific responsibility that could be construed as an assigned duty, even though some assignments might be considered minor. He should not be used to handle accounts, literature, magazines, subscriptions, or territories. Nor would he be used as an attendant, microphone handler, to operate sound equipment, to represent the congregation in prayer, or to present "Announcements" on the Service Meeting. He would not be used as the reader at the Congregation Book Study or Watchtower Study, nor to conduct a meeting for field service. It would be advisable not to have a book study in his home. And, he would not qualify to auxiliary or regular pioneer. Whereas he could volunteer to assist with general care of the Kingdom Hall where he attends meetings, he could not be approved to work on other Kingdom Halls or Assembly Halls.

He may give student talks on the Theocratic Ministry School and share in non-teaching parts on the Service Meeting, provided that his doing so will not be offensive to those in the congregation who know of his past wrongdoing."(IMPORTANT)

As we see from this information, former molesters are not to receive even minor privileges and may not even be allowed to give talks on the Ministry School, depending on the situation.

Not only are former child abusers not allowed privileges but there are also certain restrictions placed upon them for the protection of children. A 1997 letter states some of these rules to be followed by former molesters:
"Individuals who have manifested a weakness in this regard should be sensitive to their need not to be alone with children. They should refrain from holding children or displaying other forms of affection for them."

A 2000 letter adds to this: "This would include not allowing children (other than his own) to spend the night in his home, not working in field service with a child, not cultivating friendships with children, and the like."

And an October 15, 2002 letter states of former abusers who might go in the field ministry: "They should always be accompanied by an adult. These factors are in the best interests of children and the former abuser."

But doesn't the Society make exceptions for some child molesters and appoint them as servants?
Again notice the only exceptions mentioned in the policy set forth: "In a few instances, individuals guilty of an act of child abuse have been appointed to positions within the congregation if their conduct has been otherwise exemplary for decades. All the factors are considered carefully. Suppose, for example, that a long time ago a 16-year-old boy had sexual relations with a consenting 15-year-old girl. Depending upon the U.S. jurisdiction where he lived when this happened, elders may have been required to report this as an incident of child abuse. Let us say that 20 years have passed. The child abuse reporting law may have changed; the man may have even married the girl! Both have been living exemplary lives and they are respected. In such a rare case, the man could possibly be appointed to a responsible position within the congregation." As we see the exception to the rule is both reasonable and loving and in no way would endanger children.

But what about former molesters that have been reinstated or reproved but who then move to another congregation? Isn't it possible that they might be given responsible positions in the new congregation they attend since no one will know of their past course? And thus won't it be easy for them to molest again since no one suspects anything? Exactly what steps are taken to assure that this will not happen and to protect unsuspecting children in the new congregation?

MORE TO COME YOU ASK FOR IT
WILL ANSWER THAT IF YOU REALLY WANT TO KNOW THE TRUTH.

frank said...

since the apostate is quick to twist the information here is the answer to the previous question

Hey apostat can you go to a different congregation and say you are a witness and expect to be an elder or ministerial servant?

yea what in your dream? Read on

You Can Run But You Can't Hide

What happens if a former molester who has been deemed repentant moves to another congregation?

Will anyone know that he is a former molester? Will the former molester perhaps receive privileges or even be appointed to a responsible position of trust because the elders of his new congregation are unaware of his past conduct? Exactly what steps are taken to ensure that children are protected from former molesters who move to a different congregation?

A letter dated March 14, 1997 gives us a clear answer: "What should elders do when a former child molester moves to another congregation? As outlined in the February 1991 Our Kingdom Ministry "Question Box" and the August 1, 1995, letter to all Bodies of Elders, our policy is always to send a letter of introduction when a publisher moves to another congregation. It is imperative that this be done when one who is known to have been a child molester moves. The secretary should write on behalf of the elders to the new congregation's body of elders and outline this publisher's background and what the elders in the old congregation have been doing to assist him. Any needed cautions should be provided to the new congregation's body of elders. The elders should send a copy of this letter to the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society in one of the "Special Blue" envelopes."

As we see, a letter is sent out each time a former molester moves for the rest of his life. Thus the situation can be handled locally. The elders know who he is. They keep an eye out. As we showed previously there are rules and restrictions to be enforced upon former molesters for the protection of children. The elders upon being informed can make sure these rules are carried out. They make sure, for example, that he does not work in field service with a child, have children spend the night, hold children, cultivate friendship with children, receive privileges, caution others if there is a cause for concern, etc. Logically there are others who will have to know about the situation in order for the restrictions and rules to be applied. And naturally since Jehovah's Witnesses are a close knit group word will get around and thus the children will be protected.

But what of those who have been accused by only one witness? Isn't it true that when he or she moves to another congregation, no one, not even the elders of the new congregation, are informed of the accusation? Please note this June 1, 2001 letter: "There are, however, many other situations that are connected with the abuse of a child. For example, there may be just one eyewitness, and the brother denies the allegation...Or, he may be under active investigation by the secular authorities for alleged child abuse though the matter has not yet been established. Then again, a young child might be abused by someone who himself is a minor, perhaps in his pre- or early-teens... When such individuals move, the Congregation Service Committee should write a letter addressed to the Society’s Legal Department seeking advice as to whether to communicate the details to the new congregation."

As indicated the elders must write the Watchtower Society and ask whether or not to inform the new congregation. While the letter doesn't say positively that the elders in the new congregation will be informed certainly it is indicated that this will be the case unless there are reasons why they shouldn't be informed. It is only logical that each case is different and obviously no hard and fast rules can be made for every case. For example, if it has been proven in a court of law or otherwise that the person accused could not have possibly committed the abuse then no doubt it would not be necessary to inform the new congregation. But it stands to reason that in other cases where the accused has not been clearly exhonerated, the elders would be informed in order that a close eye could continue to be kept on the accused. The very fact that the Watchtower Society mentions the need to seek their advice in these cases reveals that to be true. This is both for the protection of children as well as protection against legal liability.

But did you take note that the March, 1997 letter quoted from above also showed that "elders should send a copy of this letter to the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society in one of the "Special Blue" envelopes."? Why? This is to ensure that the proper information is being disclosed to the body of elders in the new congregation and also to update the Watchtower's database. What? You mean that Bill Bowen and other opposers are correct in their claims that the Watchtower Society has a database of the names of child abusers? Why does the Watchtower Society keep such a database? What purpose does it serve and why do they not reveal the names of all those in the database?

Anonymous said...

Oh...but its OKAY for the rest of us "flock" to remain in the dark and not warn us about how my 6 yr old son/daughter might be exposed to the dangers? If the elders slip and fail to watch the 'flock' and then our children are molested who do then blame? "well its not our job, it's the parents job" So if its going to be my job, I better be kept in the loop.

Ronde said...

I am not sure of what your point in this posting is.

Nothing wrong was done by the Society.

AS to the part in bold at the end, all people are different and you should not judge people by labels.

Tom Rook said...

The short answer to your question is...

NO.

The reasons why that is true in real life is what Frank has already posted.

There are child molesters in any group you could name, from catholic priests to moose veterinarians.

One of franks references further mentioned that, rather than Jehovah's Witnesses being a dream land for molesters, it is a nightmare... due to "The List", and usual vigilance.

Of course, just like when going through a security check at the airport, even when a terrorist is profiled, and they suspect he is a terrorist ... the security precautions will only keep the kooks and the amateurs off the airplane.

However, the precautions JWs take are comprehensive and detailed.

...occasionally ... someone still gets a bomb or a gun on an airplane, regardless of security in place.

Tom.Rook@Technik-SA.US

berty said...

"There are child molesters in any group you could name, from catholic priests to moose veterinarians"

Yes, but, please take into consideration that the above do not shun everyone else as devil´s people, devil´s religion and they don´t claim they are the ONLY ONES who have god by their side and would be the ONLY ONES to be saved in the doomsday.

Governing Body Letters said...

When evil exists in the Watchtower society and it is brought to the attention of it's members, apologist always says "you can find this evil in any group in the world." "This evil is not exclusive to just Jehovah's Witnesses." "This evil exists in the Catholic Church and all othger churches."
This is true. But the point is not that it happens in other religions and organizations, but that it happened in "Jehovah's true organization". The reason that it hit the Watchtower organization so hard is because the Watchtower continually brags that their organization is better than any other religious organization in the world. They brag that their organization is directed by holy spirit and that its leaders are chosen by holy spirit (which, by the way, is an insult to holy spirit.)
Wouldn't you expect a higher level of conduct from an organization like this?
The Watchtower now does have a very good child protection policy for all to see. I will gladly admit that. It took them awhile, but it is printed in their books and magazines and talked about at their conventions so that there can be no doubt about it.
The horrible affects of their stance on child abuse prior to this all hitting the fan cannot be done away with. Still more blood on their hands in the name of Jehovah.
However, and I will only say this once, what the Watchtower publishes for media and public consumption and what they release in private are two different things.
They are, after all, a corporation who has to pay attention to it's bottom line. They have investors to answer to.
---------------------------------
Tom, I an so glad you have found a BFF in Frank. Nice. I would like to think that this blogs helps to bring people of like minds together.

Nathan said...

GBL what is you point in that article? I can't see anything wron here.

Regarding your comment: Do you really believe that JWs are alraedy perfect and will remain perfect through all there life? That is nonesense. Of course JWs commit sins as other people do. Why should you expect that bad things would not happen in an organization guided by God's Spirit? Was Jesus guided by Jehovah's Spirit when he chose his apostles? Yes he was! Was Judas a good man, when he was chosen? Yes he was! Was he deceived by Satan and became a really bad guy, although he was an apostle of Jesus (really something more than an elder!)? Yes that is true!

This shows that such can happen to everybody. This is why the Bible commands us to keep on the watch. But it does not make any sense to hold JWs responsible for errors of individuals.

JoePublish said...

You said it well GBL. JW's are NO DIFFERENT than any other religion DESPITE their claims both oral and written.

It's disgusting, their past dealings with pedophiles! Despite any new policies, the only reason that they arrived at these is because the outside world (press, news agencies, lawyers and courts, etc.) put the heat up on them.

It’s so sad that they couldn’t have listened to the humble suggestions of those who are not part of the faithful and discreet slave (read GB). See www.silentlambs.org

I’m afraid the exposure of all of this has damaged the faith of many JW’s. And when you contemplate that it was the leader’s failings on their policies (who still btw point a finger at other religions pedophile problems), well… they acted/act as a stumbling block and we know what the scriptures say about that!

Nathan said...

The same credibilty as seen in the "Do Not Forsake The Gathering of Yourselves Together" thread.

Governing Body Letters said...

"Why should you expect that bad things would not happen in an organization guided by God's Spirit? Was Jesus guided by Jehovah's Spirit when he chose his apostles? Yes he was! Was Judas a good man, when he was chosen? Yes he was! Was he deceived by Satan and became a really bad guy, although he was an apostle of Jesus (really something more than an elder!)? Yes that is true!"

Yes, Nathan, that's all true. But please do not equate the apostles with the Watchtower organization. They were not appointed by anyone for anything. That is where the trouble comes in. They keep bragging that they are God's spirit directed organization, and that they are God's only channel of communication and that they are morally ssuperior to all other religions. Nothing could be further from the truth! Even then I do not expect them to be perfect. However, I do expect them not to lie and not to cover up their wrongdoing.
I do not hold Jehovah's Witnessess responsible for the actions of an individual. Jehovah's Witnesses are mostly innocent followers who are looking for everlasting life. The fault lies squarely with the Watchtower organization .

Nathan said...

Well you said: “But the point is not that it happens in other religions and organizations, but that it happened in "Jehovah's true organization".”
And: “Wouldn't you expect a higher level of conduct from an organization like this?”

I answered on that, and showed with the example of Judas that your assertion is wrong. Nothing more.

Why not equate the apostles to the WT organization? Of course the apostles were appointed! They were appointed by Jesus, our Lord! He is not just anyone GBL!. And he had a reason for appointing the apostles! They should be the leaders in preaching the good news after Jesus’ death! He even said to them, that they will seat on 12 thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel! So their appointment was for a very high position in fact! Nevertheless Judas left the way of Jehovah! It was his choice to do so! It was not that Jesus appointed the wrong man! Imagine that Judas would have become unfaithful after Jesus’ death. That would be very comparable to an elder who becomes unfaithful. In fact that would have been even worse!

Governing Body Letters said...

And that is why we are to FOLLOW CHRIST and NOT APOSTLES.

Jesus said:

"ALL AUTHORITY in HEAVEN and ON EARTH has been given to ME."

Matthew 28:18
Hence if the apostles or even "Paul" says one thing, and the MASTER says another... OBEY the MASTER because the apostles are "slaves" and will have to answer for THEMSELVES to the Master just like WE do.
So cut through the "red tape" and obey the Master.
For only the Master can save us, not ANY "apostle."

Tom Rook said...

I am not one to ignore what I consider "great issues" , at least my perception of them, with the WTB&TS, as anybody familiar with my posts will possibly acknowledge.

But I believe that my post and frank's post on this issue are dead on, regardless of our different personalities.

You know you have lost the debate, when you attack the people instead of the issue, as GBL attacked Frank and myself.

It's called an "ad hominum" attack..when one's attacks are "to the man".

Oh yes, and engineers are famous for not being able to spell. I probably misspelled "hominum" (?)

Tom.Rook@Technik-SA.US

Governing Body Letters said...

It’s so sad that they couldn’t have listened to the humble suggestions of those who are not part of the faithful and discreet slave (read GB). See www.silentlambs.org
-----------------------------------
You aree correct, JoePublish. Not only did they not listen to those suggestions, but they disfellowshipped the ones who brought the matter to the fore and then started calling them all kinds of names. Nice, huh?

Governing Body Letters said...

"But I believe that my post and frank's post on this issue are dead on, regardless of our different personalities.

You know you have lost the debate, when you attack the people instead of the issue, as GBL attacked Frank and myself.

It's called an "ad hominum" attack..when one's attacks are "to the man"."
-----------------------------------
Tom, where did I attack you and Frank? Show me please.
Not only did I not attack you, I agree with you. See. I am not to proud to agree when sometime you say is correct?

Governing Body Letters said...

Dead On, Tom?
Well, "In a few instances, individuals guilty of an act of child abuse have been appointed to positions within the congregation if their conduct has been otherwise exemplary for decades."
--------------------------------
Even though the Watchtower gives a lame example of a 16 year old boy, the fact remains that they make the rules and they can change the rules. Today, it might be a 16 year old boy who has committed fornication with an underaged girl. Tomorrow it might be a 30 year old man.
I would not trust the Watchtower with my spirituality for anything.

Frank, I have all the aletters from the Watchtower and I know what they say, so I am begging you, no more. Please, no more.

Nathan said...

You are just trying to elude GBL! The question was not if we should follow Christ or the apostles. The question was if someone appointed by authority and maybe with the aid of the Holy Spirit can become a bad man. The answer is yes! The second question is, if when such happens, the whole religion is responsible and likewise bad. The answer is no, since it happened to Jesus who is perfectly trustworthy and had perfect judgement!

@Tom: No spelled correctly! And thanks for stating this very true point!

Nathan said...

Why shouldn't frank quote the letters? You are doing it as well! Most people here know the letters, but sometimes it is better to quote to bring it back to the mind of people.

Nathan said...

@Tom: well although mostly it is known as ad hominem :)

manfredoetger said...

governingbody, me and my friends read this blog all the time. you did not attack tom. tom has anger issues and anybody can see that. i think he wants you to attack him so that he will have some reason to attack you. he calls you names all the time. and he mentions his job all the time. i think it makes him feel superior to everybody. don't worry about him. we can see who he is. if anyone is bitter it is him.
me and my friends sent a letter to the watchtower. we left because they suck. we are real christians now. We love this blog. thank you

Governing Body Letters said...

Oh alright, Frank, bring on the rest of the letters. Let everyone see how the Watchtower is so concerned about the children in the congregations.

Anonymous said...

Tom.Rook@Technik-SA.US......

Tom, that is exactly the mentality we JW's are supposed to reflect as you just did and have done within your last 42 something years in the organization; to think that everyone just wants to 'attack' us rather than maintaining an open mind to reall issues affecting us and therefore 'jump' in immediatly towards a defence upon'mother'.

Tom, since you have been in the Organization for such a long time....shoulnt you already be an elder? After 42 years and no position in your congregation that would only mean your spirituallity is not so good or you havent simplified your life to give more service (maybe the job is too good to leave?).

Nathan said...

GBL, still eluding...

Governing Body Letters said...

Nathan, I was not trying to elude your question.
My point is that we cannot look to man for an answer. His answers are always suspect because of his imperfection.
That is why we have to always look to Christ and depend on his holy spirit for direction. We do not need organizations, or spokesmen for those organization.
Jesus left us his holy spirit as a teacher so that we would not have to depend on imperfect men.
Religion is a man made institution.

Anonymous said...

GBL:

If you need nothing but Christ....why are you still involved in a congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses?

Oh yes, then you wouldn't have access to the ultra secret, sneaky, sneaky letters to the Elders .......AND THEN....you wouldn't have issues to make you feel better about yourself. It is all about you and you "issues", eh?

frank said...

it is not worth it, to bring the rest of the letter.
the explanation is clear and the facts prooves we don't tolerate child molester, our policy is the best. but you still have to yakee yak. you Refused to accept the facts.
keep yakee yak and enjoy for now.

while you are keep yakee yak all over the whole people are still learning about Jehovah and come into the true organization,
The facts are the facts, we are the only organization doing God's will today.
God's will is not having a website to yakee yak, Remember Jesus words: go preach and make disciples baptizing them.
so keep yakee yak and enjoy it.

steve said...

Funny how the WT always makes a change in policy at exactly the same time as they are found out or when their finances are threatened and yet makes out that it is new light, or fabricates some 'Theocratic' reason for doing so.

Like how they changed their policy on child abusers when the spotlight suddenly shone on the Organization and revealed their problems with it.

Like how they put into effect the 'simplification' procedure with the literature...amazingly just at the time they were threatened with having to pay taxes on it...and said what a wonderful provision from Jehovah.. Why didnt they 'give free' before?

Like how they changed the 'generation' prophecy at the very time it basically became untenable and made out it was the 'new light' and that the brothers were to blame for having too high expectations, when they had rammed it down our throats for half a century that there was no question that Armageddon would come in the 20th Century.

Like how they quickly exited the affiliation with the UN when a newspaper article exposed them, yet lied and said the criteria had changed.


The 'powers that be' in the Jehovah's Witness Organization would have far more respect and credibility if they were honest and apologized for past mistakes. But they never have and I dont expect them to in the future and that is one big reason as to why I left.

Do as we say, but not as we do, seems to be a good motto for them

passwordprotected said...

Read the letters that frank posted again. It's very subtle.

What if a man is accused but the accuser lacks 2 witnesses? That man can't be tried by the congregation.

What if he moves? The congregation are to write to the legal dept for guidance as to whether to inform his new congregation.

This is the pedophile's loop-hole. If the Society are knowingly shielding pedophiles, then this is how they do it. THEY decide if the accused' new congregation finds out if he was accused or not.

Let's say the legal dept has this brother on their special list. Let's say they decide that no letter is to be sent informing his new cong of the accusation. That brother is then free to move congregation, be re-appointed and molest again. As long as there aren't 2 witnesses.

Nathan said...

What you said in your last posting is right. Personal opinion of individuals can never be held above what the Bible says. I definitely share that opinion. But again you asserted that if JWs are guided by God's spirit, such evil things should not happen. I responded with the example of Judas and showed how it is possible that evil things happen. And that is important, because it shows that errors of individuals prove nothing

chocolatepuddingeyes said...

A number of years ago, the Society posted their newly revised WT abuse policy on the jw-media.com site (some time after the Dateline exposé). That's where I learned about the official policy. In real life, that policy is not followed by all elders.

Victims of abuse are still routinely being ignored in the congregation. I learned to document every communication with the elders. They don't like that at all. Ticks them off big time!

All communication with the elders should be in writing. This way they can never twist the facts or distort the story. You will have a record of what was and wasn't said, which will prove to be very valuable some day.

Ronde said...

berty said:

"Yes, but, please take into consideration that the above do not shun everyone else as devil´s people, devil´s religion and they don´t claim they are the ONLY ONES who have god by their side and would be the ONLY ONES to be saved in the doomsday."

Berty,

Is that bad? Is shunning people who do not want to be God's friends and do God's will, a bad thing?

Is it bad to claim and do what you can to bring it forward, that we are the only true religion?

I would say that it is bad not to say that you are the only true religion. Think about these things before you say them.

Ronde said...

Joepub said:

"JW's are NO DIFFERENT than any other religion DESPITE their claims both oral and written."

You have the wrong idea here. It is not that we claim that we are different, it is that we are trying to be different by learning and doing our best to follow the Bible. That is why we have meetings, to encourage each other to follow Christ. The idea is to become different by putting on the new personality.

If people did not have the new personality, then what did Paul mean by "new", if everyone had the old personality?

What is sad is you keep looking at the past and pointing fingers rather than growing up and maturing yourself.

Ronde said...

GBLetters said:

"But please do not equate the apostles with the Watchtower organization."

Ok, but I will equate them with the governing body since they are not the watchtower organization. What is the difference? Neither are inspired and both used what was prior written by God's word, and both are interested in the spiritual health of the congregations.


" They were not appointed by anyone for anything. That is where the trouble comes in."

So what of it? It is the job that is being done that matters.
And what do you care about the GB? It is not as if you have dealings with them.


" They keep bragging that they are God's spirit directed organization, and that they are God's only channel of communication"

No, it is the organization, not the GB that is spirit directed. I am not of the GB, but I believe that I am spirit directed and so are the other JWs in their lives and ministry.

And if we are not God's only channel, then who else is?

ANSWERS, YOU DON'T HAVE THE ANSWERS.


" and that they are morally ssuperior to all other religions. "

Well, we are.


"Nothing could be further from the truth! Even then I do not expect them to be perfect. However, I do expect them not to lie and not to cover up their wrongdoing."

I do not believe that wrongdoings are covered up or have been. These so called abuse cases are not covered up. It is not their job to report anything.


"I do not hold Jehovah's Witnessess responsible for the actions of an individual. "

Yes, you do. You call us all pedophiles, of which you yourself are included. If you call JWs Organization bad and false prophet and pedophile paradise, you are a JW and fit that definition.


"Jehovah's Witnesses are mostly innocent followers who are looking for everlasting life. The fault lies squarely with the Watchtower organization ."

I keep telling you that there is no such thing as Watchtower organization.

Do a search on your WTCDROM for that phrase and tell me what you find.

Ronde said...

Question:

Concerning your topic - how do you define 'child molester' and 'position of authority'?

Ronde said...

GBLetters said:

"Not only did they not listen to those suggestions, but they disfellowshipped the ones who brought the matter to the fore and then started calling them all kinds of names. Nice, huh? "

Yes, Bill Bowen should have been disfellowshipped because he is an apostate - read - has a bad attitude. I sent him an email and he had a nasty reply. Why would anyone want to associate with a fool like that? He became part of the problem and not part of the solution.

kimmy jo said...

question,

"Can A Child Molester Hold A Position of Authority In The Congregation?"


Maybe not actually a "position" within the congregation but isn't the molester who is allowed to go out in the field service being given "position of authority" to present "The Kingdom message" to the general public? He is being allowed to "represent" the scriptures with authority, isn't he?

Another comment about this, it is a "privilege" to be a child molester and allowed to be part of an entire group, knowing your dirty little secret(weakness, as they call it) will not get out to the entire group. He knows that even the victim can not talk about the matter or they will be punished. The molesters secret is kept safe with the elders and as long as they do not have a second witness the elders must wait on Jehovah.

A child has been traumatized, that spells emotional, behavioural trouble for that child. They act out, they get a reputation in the cong. as "bad association". The molester is contented in his place...of safety. The child loses, if disfellowshipped he loses his family.

The congregation will never know any of this, if you speak in defense of the child you are "causing trouble, or divisions".

Within this watchtower world there are too many rules and regulations and not enough down to earth Christian love and compassion.

Ronde said...

Yahoo headlines
"Federal judge indicted on sex abuse charges "

"A federal judge accused of fondling a former court employee"

"accused him of twice touching her under her clothing and repeatedly making obscene suggestions during the six years she worked with him."

"alleges the criminal conduct happened on Aug. 29, 2003, and March 23, 2007, "

This kind of stupidity happens with adults. She knew the exact dates four years apart. "Twice touching her under her clothing"
hmm, I thought women like that kind of thing.

The accused "called any sexual contact that may have happened between him and his accuser consensual."

So it is a he said/ she said. Whom do you believe?

Ronde said...

"I would not trust the Watchtower with my spirituality for anything."

How does the Watchtower factor into anything in this equation. They do not do any appointing. They just print magazines.

IT is the writing dept that writes the magazines.

The letters to the congregations are by the CCJW.

Ronde said...

"Let everyone see how the Watchtower is so concerned about the children in the congregations.
"

It is not the Watchtower's job to be concerned about the children in the congregations, it is the parents.

Even Obama said the same in his speech last night. He stated that the government can provide money for schools, but it is up to the parents to get them to go to the schools and do their homework.
So even the president of the USA knows where the blame lies.

Ronde said...

"Tom, since you have been in the Organization for such a long time....shoulnt you already be an elder? After 42 years and no position in your congregation that would only mean your spirituallity is not so good or you havent simplified your life to give more service."

I disagree and that is a narrow view. There are much more to do in the organization than be an elder. Why limit oneself? And to be an elder, one has to be a people person. Not everyone is that. And not everyone is a brownnoser.

Ronde said...

GBLetters said:

"My point is that we cannot look to man for an answer. His answers are always suspect because of his imperfection."

That is what we say.

But then what answers are you looking for?


"That is why we have to always look to Christ and depend on his holy spirit for direction. We do not need organizations, or spokesmen for those organization."

But we do for the preaching and for literature. But then since there are 7 million in the organization we do need overseers i.e. the direction from Bethel, to oversee it all.

I really don't see why it is an issue, this spirit directed matter.
Consider, that the baseball scheduler is not spirit directed but if the NY Yankees were scheduled to play Boston, but they decided that they did not want to go to Boston but wanted to go to Tampa. But Tampa was playing Houston. How would that work?

There needs to be direction and people need to follow it regardless of this issue of spirit direction. Work with them because it works.

Ronde said...

Anon said:
"'If you need nothing but Christ....why are you still involved in a congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses?'
Oh yes, then you wouldn't have access to the letters to the Elders .......AND THEN....you wouldn't have issues to make you feel better about yourself. It is all about you and you "issues", eh? "

He is like Rush Limbaugh. He likes to sit back and point fingers and criticize all day. It makes him feel better but does nothing to make anything else better.

kimmy jo said...

Question,
"Can A Child Molester Hold A Position of Authority In The Congregation?"


Maybe not actually a "position" within the congregation but isn't the molester who is allowed to go out in the field service being given "position of authority" to present "The Kingdom message" to the general public? He is being allowed to "represent" the scriptures with authority, isn't he?

Another comment about this, it is a "privilege" to be a child molester and allowed to be part of an entire group, knowing your dirty little secret(weakness, as they call it) will not get out to the entire group. He knows that even the victim can not talk about the matter or they will be punished. The molesters secret is kept safe with the elders and as long as they do not have a second witness the elders must wait on Jehovah.

A child has been traumatized, that spells emotional, behavioural trouble for that child. They act out, they get a reputation in the cong. as "bad association". The molester is contented in his place...of safety. The child loses, if disfellowshipped he loses his family.

The congregation will never know any of this, if you speak in defense of the child you are "causing trouble, or divisions".

Within this watchtower world there are too many rules and regulations and not enough down to earth Christian love and compassion.

Ronde said...

Steve said;

"Funny how the WT always makes a change in policy at exactly the same time as they are found out or when their finances are threatened and yet makes out that it is new light, or fabricates some 'Theocratic' reason for doing so."

What does the Watchtower have to do with this issue?

"
Like how they put into effect the 'simplification' procedure with the literature...amazingly just at the time they were threatened with having to pay taxes on it...and said what a wonderful provision from Jehovah.. Why didnt they 'give free' before?"

Again you are wrong. The Watchtower BTS would not have to pay any tax on any literature as they are not a retail establishment. They would be wholesale manufacturer. IT is the public, publishers and congregations who would have to collect it.

"Like how they changed the 'generation' prophecy at the very time it basically became untenable and made out it was the 'new light' and that the brothers were to blame for having too high expectations, when they had rammed it down our throats for half a century that there was no question that Armageddon would come in the 20th Century."

Do you have a better idea? Did you send it in?

I don't see why people complain about this non-issue.

Bud said...

Child Molesters in the cong. There is a big difference between what the GB writes to the cong. and what is actually done. Elders say "he doesn't seem like that kind of guy and it's a shame to make too big of a thing of this". Of course, he isn't a threat to the elders in the cong.
Anyway, for those who doubt this problem, it is because they have not been personally affected by it yet. Until it happens to someone you love, it is all theoretical and you are happy to accept the official position. The internet helps us to see that what happened is not just a fluke, a problem in the local cong. but actually a nationwide problem. There must be a roomful of letters at the Branch. Still nothing changes. Could be why GBL holds the GB responsible.

Ronde said...

Nathan said:
"But again you asserted that if JWs are guided by God's spirit, such evil things should not happen."

People do not understand what spirit directed means.

It means that we use God's inspired and directed word as are means of guidance.

And people like GBLetters, criticizes how the elders are spirit appointed. How can he do that when Acts 20:28 says that they were appointed by holy spirit.


So GBLetters, was the Bible an account for the first century only or does it work for today?

Ronde said...

chocolate pudding said:

"Victims of abuse are still routinely being ignored in the congregation."

So what of it? How is it the congregation's business and responsibility?

"I learned to document every communication with the elders. "

Why communicate with them? What is there to communicate?

Here is how it works. You go to meetings, sing, sit listen, comment, sing, go home.
You go to meetings, get in car group, you preach.

What is difficult about that and what does that have to do with abuse and being ignored?

Ronde said...

Kimmy Jo said:
"Maybe not actually a "position" within the congregation but isn't the molester who is allowed to go out in the field service being given "position of authority" to present "The Kingdom message" to the general public? He is being allowed to "represent" the scriptures with authority, isn't he?"

Since you asked: No. A molester is not allowed to preach. A molester is removed and disfellowshipped. Maybe you are referring to reports of 'I know of so and so who did this and that and the elders did not do anything about it'. Well, hey, People say that OJ killed those two people and he got off.

If enough or all evidence is not presented then yes, guilty go free.
God's organization is not immune.

Even Solomon with his wisdom, relied on a trick to play on emotions to decide on the baby question.

You said 'allowed to go out in field service'. As if someone can be stopped from preaching.


"The molesters secret is kept safe with the elders and as long as they do not have a second witness the elders must wait on Jehovah."

What secret? If the molester confided in them, the they have no need for a second witness and they will deal with it. There should not be an announcement that so and so confessed to a sex crime with a child, because parents should be just as cautious with that knowledge as without.

And if there was an accusation without any second witness, where is the molester's secret? There is simply an accusation? And of course the congregation should not be informed of accusations.

"A child has been traumatized, that spells emotional, behavioural trouble for that child. They act out, they get a reputation in the cong. as "bad association". The molester is contented in his place...of safety. The child loses, if disfellowshipped he loses his family."

Why do people label ones as molesters just because they are accused but not convicted?

And because ones have been abused does not mean that they are bad association?

Remember that the elders are there to help, not disfellowship.

"The congregation will never know any of this, if you speak in defense of the child you are "causing trouble, or divisions"."

Not true at all.

"Within this watchtower world there are too many rules and regulations and not enough down to earth Christian love and compassion. "

Not true at all. There is no watchtower world.

Ronde said...

Bud said:
"Child Molesters in the cong. There is a big difference between what the GB writes to the cong. and what is actually done."

Well, it is like there is a difference between what is written in the laws and how the police enforce them.

" Elders say "he doesn't seem like that kind of guy and it's a shame to make too big of a thing of this". Of course, he isn't a threat to the elders in the cong."

Well, that is for them to decide, not to make generalizations from across the world.


"Anyway, for those who doubt this problem, it is because they have not been personally affected by it yet. Until it happens to someone you love, it is all theoretical "

And you are presenting more theory.

JoePublish said...

Let's see, so when the GB joins itself to the UN, via NGO contracts, that "error" was just a mistake - a human error?

Look... most JW's are going to be very upset when they read/learn about this. (Remember, most are completely in the dark about this.) It's incomprehensible that this can be relegated to an honest mistake because the contract was signed EVERY YEAR concerning their responsibilities as an NGO:

http://www.e-watchman.com/commentaries/open-letter-to-jehovahs-witnesses-and-watchtower.html

No honest/sincere Witness can read the above and not be incensed at the double-standard exhibited by the Governing Body… remember, JW’s cannot join the YMCA to just to use their pool because that would be associating with an organization that supports Christendom.

Yes, once they find out that the Watchtower leaders were planning on “using” the United Nations to garner their political clout in support of JW’s in governments that don’t allow JW’s freedom, it will be the nail on the coffin for many “thinking” JW’s. (Recall how the GB’s has vilified Christendom when they align themselves with the Satan’s worldly political entities.)

Keep up the good work GBL, despite the attacks from the JW apologists. I like how you point to the Bible, while the apologists are tied up with the damage control from the incredible blunders/mistakes/lies from the GB leaders. Boy that takes a lot of energy to answer for someone else’s mistakes. I wouldn’t want to answer for the mistakes of the leaders (after all I really don’t know personally what happened) – they should speak out in this forum! Why is it always the followers that have to speak for “their” mistakes? (Interesting question, isn’t it?)

Ronde said...

Joepub:

"Let's see, so when the GB joins itself to the UN, via NGO contracts, that "error" was just a mistake - a human error?"

When did the GB join the UN?
What Watchtower was that printed in? I have heard that stated in any district or circuit assembly talk. Thus the GB did not do it. It is individuals who worked for the Watchtower Society that did it.


"emember, JW’s cannot join the YMCA to just to use their pool because that would be associating with an organization that supports Christendom."

Where do you get that idea?

steve said...

Ronde said

'What does the Watchtower have to do with this issue?'

If you dont know now, you never will.

'I don't see why people complain about this non-issue.'

Because you are blind.

Ronde said...

Steve said:
"Ronde said
'What does the Watchtower have to do with this issue?'
If you dont know now, you never will."

I was not asking. It was rhetorical.

The Watchtower has nothing to do with local issues.

"'I don't see why people complain about this non-issue.'
Because you are blind. ""

Well, that is a good answer. Quick and took no thought or brain cells.

JoePublish said...

(One thing I have learned in life is that denial does not necessarily equate to “truth”.)

“1/1/1979 Watchtower

"Questions From Readers
● Is it true that for religious reasons Jehovah’s Witnesses may not become members of the YMCA (Young Men’s Christian Association)?

Yes, that is so. We have long recognized that the YMCA, though not being a church as such, is definitely aligned with the religious organizations of Christendom in efforts to promote interfaith.

In September 1885 the Watch Tower took this position:
“Alas for the Bible-rearing practiced in the Y. M. C. Associations! They are completely under the control of the sectarians, by whom they are supported. Though professedly non-sectarian, professedly controlled by no creed but the Bible, they are more creed-bound than others, since they are bound by all the popular creeds.”—P. 6.
Later the underlying religious purpose and interfaith efforts of the YMCA were mentioned in the September 1964 issue of Kingdom Ministry, used by Jehovah’s Witnesses in one of their meetings.

In joining the YMCA as a member a person accepts or endorses the general objectives and principles of the organization. He is not simply paying for something he receives, such as when buying things being sold to the public at a store. (Compare 1 Corinthians 8:10; 10:25.) Nor is his membership merely an entry pass, as when a person buys a theater ticket.

Membership means that one has become an integral part of this organization founded with definite religious objectives, including the promotion of interfaith. Hence, for one of Jehovah’s Witnesses to become a member of such a so-called “Christian” association would amount to apostasy.”

btw: Did you notice that the GB's answer alluded to a VERY OLD September 1885 Watch Tower? Hmmm... it's okay to quote from older Watchtowers when it doesn't make them look bad. Conversely, never may you quote from an old Watchtower when the statement makes the GB look foolish.

Regarding the Watchtower’s leaders (the GB) – and you won’t read about this in any Watchtower – read about the expose:

http://e-watchman.com/essays/watchtower-united-nations-ngo.html

http://e-watchman.com/essays/watchtower-united-nations-strange-bedfellows.html

http://e-watchman.com/essays/watchtower-prostitution.html

http://e-watchman.com/commentaries/watchtower-ngo-statement-response.html

Let the reader use [their own] discernment.

Ronde said...

Joepub said:

"“1/1/1979 Watchtower"

What makes you think that a 30 year old Watchtower is applicable?

It said membership, not just to use the pool.

And since you quote Watchtowers, why don't you follow them?

"Did you notice that the GB's answer alluded to a VERY OLD September 1885 Watch Tower?"

No, they did not do that. The GB did not write the answer. And it said "In September 1885 the Watch Tower took this position:" and "Later the underlying religious purpose and interfaith efforts of the YMCA were mentioned in the September 1964 issue of Kingdom Ministry"

So they stated that the issue was mentioned in the past. But that does not mean that it is always relevant.

Again, why do you care if you do not hold them in esteem and follow that?

Ronde said...

Joepub:
""Questions From Readers
● Is it true that for religious reasons Jehovah’s Witnesses may not become members of the YMCA (Young Men’s Christian Association)?"

The problem with this and other issues like it is that the Bible says that the apostles are not masters of our faith, but they are fellows workers. Thus if anyone says what one can or can not do in such a matter, that one is being a master over another's faith and it is invalid.

That is why I reject the things on organ transplants and vacacines, etc.

Governing Body Letters said...

"But again you asserted that if JWs are guided by God's spirit, such evil things should not happen."
----------------------------------
Guided by God's spirit is different that what the Watchtower organization is claiming. They are claiming that Jehovah God picked them personally out of all the religions in the world because they were so spiritually sound. To worship Jehovah you have to come into what they claim is Jehovah's organization.
They have put themselves in the place of Jesus Christ, because no one can get to Jehovah unless they come into the organization. To obey the Governing Body is to obey Jehovah. To question the Governing Body is to question Jehovah.
They call themselves the earthly channel for Jehovah. He speaks to them personally and no other religion.
This is an organization that has been predicting for the last 130 years dates for the end of the world in Jehovah's name.
This is the organization that have caused countless thousands of people to lose their lives needlessly by because of their stupid and unscriptual doctrines.
YES, I do expect them to be blameless, without error.
YES, I do expect them to be a real example for all to live by.
YES, I expect that an organization that claims to speak for Jehovah that is run by men who claim to be of the annointed and look forward to rule with Jesus Christ in the heavens to be PERFECT, a true place of salvation so that we could all have no doubt that they are the true religion.
If it is not PERFECT and run by good hearted honest men, then why should be allow them to become masters of our faith? What's the point?

chocolatepuddingeyes said...

"Victims of abuse are still routinely being ignored in the congregation."

Ronde: So what of it? How is it the congregation's business and responsibility?

My reply to Ronde:

Where have you been? Do you not hear the counsel that we are to go to the elders when there is a problem? The elders are supposed to be shepherding the congregation, right? Maybe you don't see it that way? What do we learn from the Bible?

(Matthew 18:15-17) 15 “Moreover, if your brother commits a sin, go lay bare his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he does not listen, take along with you one or two more, in order that at the mouth of two or three witnesses every matter may be established. 17 If he does not listen to them, speak to the congregation. . . .

Every congregation I've been in teaches that the part that says "speak to the congregation" means going to the elders. The protocol is to go to the elder that is your book study conductor first. And if it's a serious sin, then the first two steps can be skipped entirely.

It doesn't really matter what order you try to do things in, or who you talk to, if the accused denies what they did they will get away with it, even when there are two witnesses to the sin.

Oh yeah, that's another point, that two witnesses thing.....all these years the Society has been distorting that scripture in Matthew to mean that the 2 or 3 witnesses needed to be witnesses to the sin. If you manage to come up with a 2nd witness, they can easily be dismissed by the elders saying, "They don't count, they're related to you." Next time I see these elders I'm going to hand them a letter asking them to show me the scripture that supports that. ;)

"I learned to document every communication with the elders. "

Ronde: Why communicate with them? What is there to communicate?

Here is how it works. You go to meetings, sing, sit listen, comment, sing, go home.
You go to meetings, get in car group, you preach.

What is difficult about that and what does that have to do with abuse and being ignored?


My reply to Ronde:

I'm wondering if we're even both talking about the same religion. I didn't spend most of my adult life as a JW and just dream up these things on my own.

I was told week after week, convention after convention, assembly after assembly, that I was living in a spiritual paradise, that the congregation is a safe haven, and that the elders are there to protect us and shelter us. When your spouse is dishing out mental, verbal, and emotional abuse, and you ask the elders for assistance, a person should not be ignored and the problems should not be swept under the rug. When your spouse loses control of their temper and leaves bruises on a toddler for doing what toddlers do, or on an infant for making too much noise at the meeting, the other parent should be able to go to the elders in the congregation and get assistance. Unfortunately, too many elders are afraid to get involved. The first thing they have to do is check with the Society to find out how to handle the situation. They may never get back to the person who asked for assistance. Some elders hope the problem just goes away on its own.

When the problems not only continue, but escalate, a person may decide it's better to go to the police. At this point, if you are female, you are going to get chewed out royally by the elders and your spouse for not being submissive, and for not going through the proper channels.

Maybe you can't relate to what I'm saying. I don't know. I'm trying to figure out why you seem to be so unaffected by the plight of many of your brothers and sisters. My heart aches at the thought of all the brothers and sisters who have been traumatized by willful sinners who constantly deny they ever did anything, and who have been abandoned by the shepherds that were supposed to look after them.

(Ezekiel 34:2-6) . . .‘This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said: “Woe to the shepherds of Israel, who have become feeders of themselves! Is it not the flock that the shepherds ought to feed? 3 The fat is what YOU eat, and with the wool YOU clothe your own selves. The plump animal is what YOU slaughter. The flock itself YOU do not feed. 4 The sickened ones YOU have not strengthened, and the ailing one YOU have not healed, and the broken one YOU have not bandaged, and the dispersed one YOU have not brought back, and the lost one YOU have not sought to find, but with harshness YOU have had them in subjection, even with tyranny. 5 And they were gradually scattered because of there being no shepherd, so that they became food for every wild beast of the field, and they continued to be scattered. 6 My sheep kept straying on all the mountains and on every high hill; and on all the surface of the earth my sheep were scattered, with no one making a search and with no one seeking to find.

kimmy jo said...

TO RONDE,
MY RESPONSES TO YOUR COMMENTS ON MY POST ARE CAPITALIZED and in PARENTHES JUST FOR YOUR EASE OF READING,

Ronde said...
Kimmy Jo said:

Question,

"Can A Child Molester Hold A Position of Authority In The Congregation?"


"Maybe not actually a "position" within the congregation but isn't the molester who is allowed to go out in the field service being given "position of authority" to present "The Kingdom message" to the general public? He is being allowed to "represent" the scriptures "with authority", isn't he?"
(i WILL ANSWER THIS SINCE YOU MISSED THE POINT. YES, BECAUSE HE IS PREACHING TO THE HOUSEHOLDER THAT PUTS HIM IN A POSITION OF AUTHORITY AS A TEACHER)

ronde answers,
Since you asked: No. A molester is not allowed to preach.(WRONG, HE CAN PREACH AS LONG AS HE IS NOT ALONE WITH CHILDERN). A molester is removed and disfellowshipped. (WRONG, NOT WITHOUT 2 WITNESSES). "Maybe you are referring to reports of 'I know of so and so who did this and that and the elders did not do anything about it'". (I AM TALKING FIRST HAND INFORMATION FROM THE VICTIM, NOT GOSSIP) "Well, hey, People say that OJ killed those two people and he got off." (WELL, HEY, WHATS THAT GOT TO DO WITH TEA IN CHINA?)

"If enough or all evidence is not presented then yes, guilty go free.
God's organization is not immune." (CHILDREN DO NOT MAKE THINGS UP)

"Even Solomon with his wisdom, relied on a trick to play on emotions to decide on the baby question." (EXPLAIN THIS STATEMENT, IT HAS NO MEANING)

"You said 'allowed to go out in field service'. As if someone can be stopped from preaching." (DISFELLOWSHIPPED, REPROVED, YES, FIELD SERVICE "PRIVILEDGE" CAN BE TAKEN AWAY)
I SAID,
"The molesters secret is kept safe with the elders and as long as they do not have a second witness the elders must wait on Jehovah."
RONDE SAYS,
"What secret?"(THE FACT THAT THEY SEXUALLY MOLESTED THE CHILD THAT TOLD THE ELDERS) "If the molester confided in them,(THEY DON'T USUALLY PLEAD GUILTY OR CONFIDE IN THE ELDERS) they have no need for a second witness and they will deal with it. There should not be an announcement that so and so confessed to a sex crime with a child, (ARE YOU SERIOUS? IF HE IN FACT DID CONFESS, WHICH IS RARE, THEN HE SHOULD BE TAKEN TO THE POLICE AND EVERYONE IN THE CONGREGATION SHOULD BE NOTIFIED AS SOON AS POSSIBLE) because parents should be just as cautious with that knowledge as without.

And if there was an accusation without any second witness, where is the molester's secret?(WITH THE CHILD) There is simply an accusation?(WRONG) And of course the congregation should not be informed of accusations.

"A child has been traumatized, that spells emotional, behavioural trouble for that child. They act out, they get a reputation in the cong. as "bad association". The molester is contented in his place...of safety. The child loses, if disfellowshipped he loses his family."

Why do people label ones as molesters(BECAUSE THEY ARE IF THEY DO THAT) just because they are accused but not convicted?

And because ones have been abused does not mean that they are bad association?(YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND TRAUMA AND IT'S EFFECTS)

"Remember that the elders are there to help, not disfellowship.(TO PROTECT THE CONG. SHEPARED THE FLOCK, YES AND DISFELLOWSHIP)

"The congregation will never know any of this, if you speak in defense of the child you are "causing trouble, or divisions"."

Not true at all.(VERY TRUE, THE CONG GETS ADMONISHED ALL THE TIME NOT TO TALK)

"Within this watchtower world(CONG.OF JW'S) there are too many rules and regulations and not enough down to earth Christian love and compassion. "

Not true at all. There is no watchtower world.(YES THERE IS...IT'S THE WORLD THE JW'S LIVE IN)

Ronde said...

Chocolate:
""Victims of abuse are still routinely being ignored in the congregation."
Ronde: 'So what of it? How is it the congregation's business and responsibility?'
"Where have you been? Do you not hear the counsel that we are to go to the elders when there is a problem? "

Right, but you said victim. That is past tense. Some are ones that do not tell anyone. Some it has been many years. The Bible also says in Isaiah that the former things will not be called mind neither will they come up into the heart. So in 1000 years the person will not be a victim of anything, neither in a million.
Thus you are thinking so short term.

Go to the elders and do what? It is just something that takes time to get over.

"The elders are supposed to be shepherding the congregation, right? "

It is not about what I see, but it is not their business. People just need time.0

Matt 18 is about when a sin is committed not a serious sin like abuse.

Why do people continually dismiss the 2 or 3 witnesses BIBLICAL rule?
There are always 2 witnesses to every sin. The problem is they don't always agree.

"When your spouse is dishing out mental, verbal, and emotional abuse, and you ask the elders for assistance, a person should not be ignored and the problems should not be swept under the rug."

You didn't say that. The subject here is child molester, not wifely stuff.

"e other parent should be able to go to the elders in the congregation and get assistance."

No, what you do is get his rear end out of the house or get yours out and go to the police. Forget the elders.

I can't relate to what you are saying because you said "I was told week after week, convention after convention, assembly after assembly, that I was living in a spiritual paradise,"

Come on people, think.

Why is it that left wing apostates and right wing Witnesses can't think but just follow what is said?

Why not be balanced and think about what needs to be done?

JoePublish said...

Several times Ronde has tried to distance the GB from the information appearing in The Watchtower.

Well, why not allow The Watchtower to speak for itself:

“15 The “faithful and discreet slave” class, the “watchman,” today uses the Watchtower magazine under the direction of the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses as its main channel for dispensing spiritual “food at the proper time.” (Matthew 24:45) – w87 3/1”

“22 How thankful we are that Jehovah, “the God of truth,” has used the faithful and discreet slave class and its Governing Body to provide us with these timely journals!” – w94 1/1”

Almost as though it was anticipating Ronde-like readers of it, NOTICE what the Kingdom Ministry said in the titled article: Proclaim the Good News With The Watchtower –KM 4/92
“1 …How can we show others that The Watchtower is different, containing a message that is truly refreshing? …
3 Do our comments about The Watchtower convey such thoughts in a convincing way?"

Ronde has plastered this web-blog with all sorts of non-sense that JW’s only believe what is said in Assemblies and District Conventions, yet the Watchtower itself says: “The Watchtower is the MAIN channel that the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses uses for dispensing spiritual “food at the proper time.”

That directly contradicts Ronde.
But, then again, you’ll not find this unusual for this maverick of a JW.

btw Ronde, you got that other test wrong.
Let’s try again… I say “up” and you say “____” (begins with D, not Y).

You’re a real piece of work Ronde – an embarrassment to any JW who reads this blog - my goodness, wait until they read your replies… will they be shocked. (I’m not talking about the JW apologists on this web-blog – some who have had to correct you that their have been child molestation occurring in this organization. I’m talking about the JW’s who read this - as well as future ones, who are earnest good JW’s. I have to spell this out for you because I know you would have everyone believe that every JW is just like you… a maverick.)

Finally, you are an embarrassment to humanity itself for your stance on blaming children and their parents for being the victims of molestation.

Your continuous blogs only reveal the non-sensical, illogical thinking that goes on in your brain. Personally I believe you are mad/insane. You have a chip on your shoulder and it's huge!

kimmy jo said...

WOW! I could not have said it better than you, joepublish.

JoePublish said...

Chocolatepuddingeyes, Kimmy Jo and Steve (and others). Thank you for trying to straighten Ronde out. I know there is no help for him, but he will stop at nothing to try and convince impartial readers that he has an answer to everything.

Well, first of all... nobody has an answer to everything.

Socond, elusive/contradictory/smoke-screen answers aren't going to fool anyone with a brain.

Let the reader of all Ronde's replies use their own powers of discernment along with their experience in life.

It won't take long to see that Ronde is out to argue any legitimate point made and many times those arguments are so ridiculous they just point out how desperate he is. (That's right Ronde is a guy... I don't know why he chose a girlish sounding name.)

Okay, Ronde, I know you always try to get the last answer - but remember, that doesn't mean you're right because you got the last answer, it just means you may be immature.

Anonymous said...

Ronde is cold hearted, unloving, unsympathetic, unempathetic, ignorant bigot.

I hear he is being appointed as an elder next week.

chocolatepuddingeyes said...

Chocolate:
""Victims of abuse are still routinely being ignored in the congregation."

Ronde: 'So what of it? How is it the congregation's business and responsibility?'
"Where have you been? Do you not hear the counsel that we are to go to the elders when there is a problem? "

Ronde: Right, but you said victim. That is past tense. Some are ones that do not tell anyone. Some it has been many years. The Bible also says in Isaiah that the former things will not be called mind neither will they come up into the heart. So in 1000 years the person will not be a victim of anything, neither in a million.
Thus you are thinking so short term.


My reply to Ronde: When I said victims of abuse are still being ignored, I was talking about current issues that I am aware of. I could show you a number of letters to the elders that have received no reply. The evidence is stacking up against them because they refuse to deal with these various situations, and instead force the victims to seek help outside the congregation, while allowing the abuser to remain an active member of the congregation.

I don't know how you come to be so insulated from these things, except to wonder how involved you are in your congregation. Talk to your average elder and ask him how many sisters have gone to the elders in the past 5 years asking for help because of their spouse's unchristian behavior. Not all abuse is sexual abuse, but in my book abuse is abuse is abuse, and if it's being reported and ignored, the elders are compounding the problem. And yes, this particular thread is about molesting children, but physical abuse is a crime too.

And this brings up an interesting point. This particular blog is about child molesters, and whether or not there's a possibility that they could be re-appointed in the congregation. But what about men in the congregation who have a history of other kinds of abuse, such as physical abuse? The same tactics that keep molesters protected in the congregations are keeping abusive men protected too. In my opinion, that is why so many sisters are being ignored when they bring it to the elder's attention that there's problems at home. The elders excuse the behavior because they are guilty of it themselves.

Your comment about me thinking so short term is a reflection of the mindset of many elders. They want the person who is speaking up to shut up, and let Jehovah take care of the matter. Instead of following Biblical principles that would address the problem, they would prefer to sweep things under the rug and forget about it. Do you know how many sisters are currently seeking help and being told to wait on Jehovah? Or go home and practice being a better wife? Or to spend more time praying and studying the Bible?

Even victims of sexual abuse are made to feel it was their fault because the Society aka Governing Body, requires the elders to figure out if the victim was in any way at fault, so a portion of the blame may be placed on the victim's shoulders. How many sisters have been the victim of a rape, and when they reported it to the elders, had the tables turned around on them? Young teenage girls that have been raped by a servant in the congregation are interrogated in a fashion so that the elders can put part of the blame on her.

Ronde said: Go to the elders and do what? It is just something that takes time to get over.

My reply to Ronde: If someone came to you and told you that they had a problem going on in their life, would you just tell them to get over it?

"The elders are supposed to be shepherding the congregation, right? "

Ronde said: It is not about what I see, but it is not their business. People just need time.

Whether the abuse happened 20 years ago, or 2 years ago, or is currently going on, the elders should be paying attention to the flock. They even have a special book about shepherding the flock under their care. So how can you say the problems of the sheep are not concerns the elders should address?

"When your spouse is dishing out mental, verbal, and emotional abuse, and you ask the elders for assistance, a person should not be ignored and the problems should not be swept under the rug."

Ronde said: You didn't say that. The subject here is child molester, not wifely stuff.

My reply to Ronde: Believe me, a fair share of reports of molesting get swept under the rug too. The biggest category that I'm aware of are the cases involving a step-father, but it's been known to happen in cases where the perp was the natural father too. If a sister goes to the elders for help, telling them that she suspects her unbelieving husband (or ex-spouse) is sexually abusing their child, the elders respond in an appropriate manner directing the sister on how to get appropriate help.

If a sister goes to the elders for help, telling them that she suspects her baptized husband of sexually abusing their child, she will not get the same advice. She will be told the elders will look into it, and she trusts that they will. From here on out the elders make every effort to keep things quiet and caution the sister to let the congregation handle the matter warning her that if she speaks up she will be bringing reproach on Jehovah's name.

"The other parent should be able to go to the elders in the congregation and get assistance."

Ronde said: No, what you do is get his rear end out of the house or get yours out and go to the police. Forget the elders.

Do you know what happens to sisters who do that? The elders pressure them constantly to reconcile with their husband and tell the sister that they are setting a bad example for the congregation. I've seen it happen over and over and over again. Some sisters return to the abusive situation because they can't take the pressure anymore and being labeled as someone who is in opposition to headship and Jehovah's arrangement for marriage. The sisters who stay separated or go through with a divorce now find themselves socially ostracized from the congregation.

Ronde said: I can't relate to what you are saying because you said "I was told week after week, convention after convention, assembly after assembly, that I was living in a spiritual paradise,"

Come on people, think.

Why is it that left wing apostates and right wing Witnesses can't think but just follow what is said?

Why not be balanced and think about what needs to be done?


Why are their right-wing JW's to begin with? Because they are convinced that their everlasting life depends on being obedient to the faithful and discreet slave. JW's are constantly reminded to be obedient to the so-called FDS, and that's why they have lost the ability to be balanced and use their thinking abilities.

I don't really understand your comment about left-wing apostates. First of all, I don't consider anyone who speaks up about the problems in the org. or who criticizes the Governing Body or WTS literature as an apostate. The people I see speaking up have a deep love for Jehovah, Jesus, and their fellow man. An apostate is one who has denied the teachings of Christ. The Bible tells how apostasy would corrupt the Christian congregation (read 2 Thess. chapter 2). If you cannot see how this relates to the modern day organization of Jehovah's Witnesses, pray for holy spirit to help you understand what you are reading.

In my opinion, the people who you refer to as left-wing apostates are the ones who have come out of a deep spiritual sleep and are putting forth an earnest effort to educate other JW's in regard to the truth about the truth. My hope is that one day your eyes will be opened too, so that you can support these truth-seekers, as it is very apparent you are a zealous person.

Governing Body Letters said...

chocolatepuddingeyes, thank you, thank you for such an eloquent statement. You are positively, absolutely dead on in your assessment of what goes on in the congregations with regard to abuse. As you said, it is not just children who are abused.

Bud said...

Chocolatepuddingeyes, you nailed it with your comment. This is exactly what has happened for decades and continues to this very day. It is hard to believe it to be so until it happens to you or your family member. By contrast, Jesus so clearly valued women and children. This is an elder thing, not a scriptural policy.

JoePublish said...

Wow! I love how you presented that info to Ronde (and all other readers) and how you encouraged him at the end. Great work chocolatepuddingeyes!!!

That was so right-on with your assessment. Thanks for taking the time to write that - it will educate a lot of people (JW's and others alike.)

Ronde said...

Joepublish:
"Ronde has plastered this web-blog with all sorts of non-sense that JW’s only believe what is said in Assemblies and District Conventions, yet the Watchtower itself says: “The Watchtower is the MAIN channel that the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses uses for dispensing spiritual “food at the proper time.”"

Well, you are narrow minded as always. The Watchtower is not the main channel. The district conventions are. The fact is that from the 1930s the talks in the DC, used to be manuscript, now outlines, appear in the Watchtower magazine study articles. Thus now the Watchtower is 2 years behind the spiritual food from the DCs.

Thus the official position of JWs is the sum total of all meetings and assemblies and conventions.

Ronde said...

Joepublish said:
"
Well, first of all... nobody has an answer to everything."

I do and they are the right answers.

"Let the reader of all Ronde's replies use their own powers of discernment along with their experience in life. "

Well, Joepublish, you admitted that you do not even want to know the truth about Jehovah's Witnesses.

Ronde said...

Joepublish said:
"(That's right Ronde is a guy... I don't know why he chose a girlish sounding name.)"

A girlish sounding name????

You call this girlish?

* 4x Pro Bowl selection (2001, 2004, 2005, 2006)
* 5x All-Pro selection (2001, 2002, 2004, 2005, 2006)
* 1x Super Bowl champion (Super Bowl XXXVII)
* 20/20 Club
* Buccaneers Interceptions (All-Time)
* Led the NFL in interceptions with Anthony Henry in 2001
* Led the NFL in interception touchdowns in 2006 with Chris McAlister and Jason Taylor

Ronde said...

some anonymous fool said:
"Ronde is cold hearted, unloving, unsympathetic, unempathetic, ignorant bigot."

Thank you. Anytime an apostate calls me a name, I take it as a compliment. That means that Jesus looks highly upon me.

Ronde said...

chocolate pudding said:
"The evidence is stacking up against them because they refuse to deal with these various situations, and instead force the victims to seek help outside the congregation, while allowing the abuser to remain an active member of the congregation."

Well, if you know so much, why don't you talk to the abuser and deal with it rather than going to others?

You just like to complain, become part of the problem and not the solution.

Anonymous said...

I wasnt calling you names. I was describing the way you present yourself.

I am not an apostate. I am a Jehovah's Witness. Like you, I have a mind of my own.

chocolatepuddingeyes said...

"The evidence is stacking up against them because they refuse to deal with these various situations, and instead force the victims to seek help outside the congregation, while allowing the abuser to remain an active member of the congregation."

Ronde said: Well, if you know so much, why don't you talk to the abuser and deal with it rather than going to others?

You just like to complain, become part of the problem and not the solution.


Why do you assume I haven't talked to the abuser? Why do you assume I have done nothing to deal with it?

I feel compelled to speak up about the problems going on inside the congregation. There are a lot of sisters out there who are in similar situations, maybe even some brothers.

You oversimplify the problem Ronde. Resolving issues takes time. I've been criticized for taking action, and I've been criticized for not taking action soon enough. You can't please anyone these days. No matter what I did, or how I handled it, the congregation looks at me being the problem, when all I ever tried to do was get it resolved.

I'm glad Jehovah and Jesus know my heart and my situation.

Many thanks to all those who are supportive and understanding.

Governing Body Letters said...

chocolatepuddingeyes, you make such reasonable, well thought out comments and they are very much appreciated.

Please don't let ronde chase you away. ronde is a troll. every board like this has one.

ronde, for some wierd reason, believes that he is going to set all of us "apostates" straight. He is going to be the champion of his Watchtower religion. Trolls don't seem to care how stupid they appear or about the nonsence they sprout, they are simply the clowns at the party.

Here is my advise. Ignore, ronde. If you feed the troll he won't go away and he just gets worse.

You would think that his time would be better spent on a Jehovah's Witnesses board where he could cheer his like-minded brother on. But, sadly, no. He has more fun at "apostate" boards. There are many, many like him on the internet.

The only thing to do is ignore him and perhaps he will go away and take his ridiculous defenses of the Watchtower with him.

JoePublish said...

{Ronde, this is not directed to you, so please don’t reply. Thank you for respecting my wishes because the letter below is very serious.}

Dear Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses;

We have a JW on this web-blog with the girlish sounding name of Ronde (but he’s a guy, he has said so – some have inadvertently addressed him as Ronda, but I can assure you, he is a “brother”, not a “sister”).

He is spreading lies about God’s organization and you!

For instance, you stated: “(15) The “faithful and discreet slave” class, the “watchman,” today uses the Watchtower magazine under the direction of the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses as its main channel for dispensing spiritual “food at the proper time.” (Matthew 24:45) – w87 3/1”

Ronde has called this statement a lie by emphatically stating: “ The Watchtower is not the main channel. The district conventions are.”

Now, at best he may be splitting hairs but I doubt it based on his bad reputation on this web-blog.
Regardless, he would have people believe that your statement: “the Watchtower magazine under the direction of the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses as its MAIN CHANNEL for dispensing spiritual food at the proper time” is incorrect because as he stated, (and I quote) “the Watchtower is 2 years behind the spiritual food from the DCs.”

He has previous stated that the Watchtower (and any quotes from it) has nothing to do with Jehovah’s Witnesses religion (or the Governing Body) and when this particular quote was pulled out to disprove that false statement, Ronde desperately tried to interpret a straight-forward comment from you in the 1987 Watchtower.

So, do you agree with Ronde’s comments ‘that the Watchtower isn’t the MAIN CHANNGEL for dispensing spiritual food at the “proper time” because it’s two years behind’?

If not (and I don’t personally believe you meant this), then you may need to take action against Ronde.

I’m sure he would be happy to supply you with his real name and congregation because he’s not afraid of you – he has stated so in his web-blogs. He has also stated that he likes to dialogue, so I'm sure he would look forward to discussing this with you [the GB].

Have a nice day!

chocolatepuddingeyes said...

Dear GBL,

Thank you for your kind words. I wonder how many curious JW brothers and sisters see posts like Ronde's and give themselves permission to lurk. Maybe the first time they come across a site like this the red flags go up, but then they keep seeing active JW's taking part in blogs and forums like this, and say, "What's the harm?"

I can imagine the Governing Body gets really frustrated that their members don't take heed to their numerous warnings to avoid websites that criticize the WTS and its literature.

Ronde said...

Joepub:
"{Ronde, this is not directed to you, so please don’t reply. Thank you for respecting my wishes because the letter below is very serious.}
Dear Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses;"

Why would you address people you hate as 'dear'?

You are such a hypocrite and coward.

Ronde said...

Chocolate said:
"I wonder how many curious JW brothers and sisters see posts like Ronde's and give themselves permission to lurk. Maybe the first time they come across a site like this the red flags go up, but then they keep seeing active JW's taking part in blogs and forums like this, and say, "What's the harm?""

You act as if it is wrong for us to be here and defend the faith. This is good and healthy for us because when we are here and then stay faithful, it is better than avoiding thing and thinking one is faithful to Jehovah.



"I can imagine the Governing Body gets really frustrated that their members don't take heed to their numerous warnings to avoid websites that criticize the WTS and its literature. "

The GB has no members. Well the answer is simple, don't criticize the WTS and its literature.

But I don't see the problem as the Bible says 'through use one's perceptive powers are trained.' So just reading literature and staying away from opposition is not healthy.

Governing Body Letters said...

Dear Readers,

As is readily apparent, ronde is not a real Jehovah's Witnesses. His presense on this blog and his comments to questions reveal that he has an agenda all his own. That agenda is out of line with the teachings of Jehovah's Witnesses.

He flaunts the organization's rules and says that he has a right to do things his way.

ronde is not a jehovah's Witnesses nor is he a former Jehovah's Witness. He takes joy in baiting those who used to believe as he did.

ronde is a troll. Do not feed the troll.

Bud said...

It occured to me that Ronde is playing the 'Devil's Advocate' and sees his role as keeping the energy going by creating conflict. I actually just scroll past his comments to find out if there is something of value stated by someone interesting.

Ronde said...

So you can't handle the truth.

The only one with the agenda is you antiWitnesses.

"He flaunts the organization's rules and says that he has a right to do things his way."

I don't flaunt them. I state that there are no rules. As to doing things my way, if that is what works, then do it.

"ronde is not a jehovah's Witnesses"

Of course I am not "a jehovah's Witnesses"".

I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses.


I say that you are not one of Jehovah's Witnesses nor were you ever if you don't know the difference.

Ronde said...

Bud said:
"
It occured to me that Ronde is playing the 'Devil's Advocate' and sees his role as keeping the energy going by creating conflict. I actually just scroll past his comments to find out if there is something of value stated by someone interesting. "

NO, not at all.

I just see that you are posting wrong information and I correct you.

Governing Body Letters said...

"I just see that you are posting wrong information and I correct you."
===================================
Bud, so now do you see what he is doing? He is his own Governing Body. When you or anyone else says something that he does not personally agree with then ronde feels obligated to correct you.
He makes and follows his own rules and if he thinks you are straying from them, well he has to tell you so. Id this were not my blog he would disfellowship you!
Even semantics. "One of Jehovah's Witnesses "a Jehovah's Witnesses" same thing. But not to ronde, he wants your descriptions to conform to his thinking.
This is why some people become Jehovah's Witnesses, especially men because they can become elders. As an elder they can lead a congregation and everyone in that congregation will hang onto every word he says as truth.
Then the elders who are like ronde come to believe that everything they say is the truth and if your opinion differs from their, then you are wrong.
He is always right. You are always wrong.

Ronde said...

GBLetters said after misinterpreting:
"Bud, so now do you see what he is doing? He is his own Governing Body."

What does the governing body (overseers of the congregation) have to do with me seeing you post wrong information and correcting you? Is it only the responsibility of the overseers to correct you? Others can't?

"When you or anyone else says something that he does not personally agree with then ronde feels obligated to correct you."

Well, we all should be brothers and should be in agreement.

"He makes and follows his own rules and if he thinks you are straying from them, well he has to tell you so."

No one said anything about rules.

" Id this were not my blog he would disfellowship you!"

You disfellowship yourself, but I don't allow this on my blog.


"Even semantics. "One of Jehovah's Witnesses "a Jehovah's Witnesses" same thing. "

No they are not the same thing. Look it up on the WTCDROM. Also look up 'Watchtower organization' as a phrase on the CDROM. How many occurances and in what context?

JoePublish said...

Ronde, do your parents know what you are up to?