Monday, August 11, 2008

Do Not Forsake The Gathering of Yourselves Together

“And let us consider one another to incite to love and fine works, not forsaking the gathering of ourselves together, as some have the custom, but encouraging one another, and all the more so as YOU behold the day drawing near.”Hebrews 10:24, 25.
Hebrews is regularly drawn on by the Watchtower Society to indicate we need to be regular at five meetings per week.
It is interesting to compare how the scripture is used with what is actually said.
Kingdom Ministry 1990 May p.7 “Christian meetings are an essential part of our worship of Jehovah. The apostle Paul fittingly urges us not to forsake the gathering of ourselves together, “as some have the custom.”—Heb. 10:25. Do you have similar sentiments about associating with your brothers at Christian meetings? What does your custom reveal in this regard? Do you regularly attend all the meetings, including the Congregation Book Study? Or do you find that you customarily miss meetings? What place do meetings have in your life? Are you encouraging others to attend meetings regularly? Have you been encouraging Memorial attenders to be regular in their meeting attendance?”
Hebrews simply states ‘do not forsake’ gathering together.
It does not say where to gather. Paul did not saying gatherings must be in, or limited to Churches or halls. Gathering together could include meals and social events. How often? The scripture simply says not to forsake gathering, but does not demand that this be daily, weekly or even monthly. Though the Watchtower insists that this is referring to all five weekly meetings, special days, assemblies and conventions this is not what the scripture states. It is important to associate with other worshipers as regularly as required to keep encouraged. Life in the first century was much different than the life we experience today. In order to live the people had to work all the time. They had little time to get together and their time together was limited.
What to discuss? Paul does he mention what needs to be discussed. He certainly does not prescribe fixed format discussion, where comments in question and answer sessions must strictly comply with what is printed in a denominations journal. They were read to from the Bible only, not periodicals. The Holy Scriptures were meant to teach on their own. (Joshua 8:34-35) The strictness of regularity and the global precision of discussion are an effective form of control not prescribed in the bible. Basically it means give up or reject entirely... not exactly a five meeting a week mandate is it. No where is it written that salvation comes through affiliation with a group of imperfect men. Especially when compared to the rest of the New Testament that repeats over and over again that salvation is through faith in Christ, not meeting attendance and not an organization! The Watchtower places great emphasis is on regular meeting attendance, regular field service, and study of the Watchtower. The Bible makes it clear that Christianity is about Jesus, not about the Watchtower.
Jehovah's Witnesses call themselves "True Christians", separating themselves from other Christians. In the first century they were all called "The Way". The name christianity and the denominations did not come until later. So the members of The Way met in the fields, in the catacombs, at meals, whenever they had time. To forsake means to give up, to abandon or leave altogether. It does NOT mean that you must go to five meetings a week. You could go once a year and still say that you are not forsaking the gathering of yourselves together. As long as two or more or gathered in the name of Jesus, then it doesn't matter where they are.
Jehovah's Witnesses like to say that they strictly follow the Bible. This is laughable. They are so far off the mark and simply overwhelmed with teachings that are strictly of men who claim to speak for God.

62 comments:

Anonymous said...

To non-person who writes this blog:

Uh Oh....sounds like someone doesn't like to go to meetings. Whaa, Whaa,....well that's a good reason NOT to be one of Jehovah's Witnesses.

We are human and we get tired and are busy; but Witnesses see the value of these meetings in keeping our faith strong and the value of developing love for our Brothers as we gather together. Some come tired, but all leave refreshed and will say how much they enjoyed the encouragement! In these last days we welcome healthy upbuilding information from the Bible.

Picky, picky, picky. Why would you possibly care how often Jehovah's Witnesses meet? You probably watch as much or more filthy garbage on TV in one week than we spend time meeting, glorifying Jehovah and calling on people in our community.

It is clear, just as Satan did not want to be told what to do......you don't like to be told to go to meetings. So push back in that easy chair, grab the remote and relax.

Knock, knock,

Who's there?

Oh, it must be Saturday morning. Quick....hide!

Anonymous said...

'Some come tired, but all leave refreshed and will say how much they enjoyed the encouragement!'

Haha! ALL leave refreshed? Do you have figures or are you just repeating the mantra of the Watchtower magazine?

Actually, it is just one of 100's of reasons why I left the JWs. But principally its because they dont have the truth. Otherwise I would still be in it.

Anonymous said...

so much passive aggression from active jws towards non-jws.

but what else is new?

Anonymous said...

Judas was impatient with the Lord too. He hung out for awhile, even attended the Last Super. And then he betrayed God's Son.....sound like anyone we know? Anonymous (2) said this was one of the many reasons he/she left the JW's.

What? Because in his/her opinion we had too many meetings? They are too organized? Too structured? Well ok, but you do realize it is just your opinion. Who are you to say how Jehovah will organize and conduct His Organization in these last days. Not you buddy.

"They don't have the truth, otherwise I'd be in it." Oh I see, you are the individual to be determining Truth.

I wonder if the Jewish religious leaders saw Jesus as passive agressive when he was so straight with them.

No agression here, it just doesn't make sense to fuss about our meeting attendance. We hurt no one and helps millions who go all aroung the world. You need to chill.

Governing Body Letters said...

This post has nothing to do with the number of meetings a week Jehovah's Witnesses have. This has to do with the interpretation of Paul's words. Paul's words meant that followers of Christ should not "forsake the gathering of themselves together." This was intended only to show the new religion that they should have fellowship with one another. This was not a call to conduct a sales meetings or to engage in questions and answers from the Watchtower. That is the Watchtower's interpretation. One of the reasons that the midweek study was abolished was because many brothers were frustrated at the number of meetings every week.
I don't personally care how many times a week Jehovah's Witnesses meet, I am only saying that it is not scriptural. Jehovah has nothing to do with the organization of the Watchtower religion. He left his word for us to read and did not leave the Bible to be interpreted by some religious organization.
Jehovah's Witnesses help people? Other religions build hospitals, have food kitchens, clothing drives and many other charitable programs that help people. There are organization such as Alcoholics Anonymous that have helped hundreds of millions alcoholics stay sober. These are just a few of the organization that render aide and assistance.
I realize that there are people that need the Watchtower organization. They need to be told what to do and how to do it. That's okay. You are right where you belong. Worshipping your God the Watchtower. At least it will keep you off the streets and hopefully out of trouble.

warren said...

its senseless. witnesses always mix the wtg's word with god words and treat both equal. i believe they just cant differ between mans word and gods word anymore. at least i couldnt before my hard years of waking up began.

one cant expect them to think rational.

i guess the BEST way to make a jw think is to give him the bible and let him read! read, read, read, without the wtg blinding publications aside. at least reading the bible alone started it for me.

the bible says there is NOTHING needed as just the holy scripture itself.

greg said...

well said anonymous aug 11 9:13pm, the reason many leave the jws is simply because jws do not have the truth. The wt always says people leave coz they are lazy, proud etc but this is a lie to make those still in it feel better. The wt org can`t cope with the fact that many leave for this reason so they just resort to name calling.

Anonymous said...

OK now to show that you are fair, please present the truth about meetings in another church. Maybe you can start with Chatolic with their rituals?

kimmy jo said...

the watchtowers manipulations become evident immediately as you begin your bible study with the interested person. they teach fear and pride. you will learn that you are special(pride) you are chosen as one of the special sheep and how Satan will work threw family and friends(fear) to convince you to stop studying by telling you lies. (the lies are the well known fact about this corrupt organization)so your pride is built up and you become defensive and of course you become better than the anyone outside the org. and you are fearful which is fuel to the fire of zeal(staying busy). now you MUST go to meetings, here they bring in the third form of control, guilt. that is when the Hebrew scripture is quoted and used to infuse quilt if you slack with meeting attendance. then there are the preparations for the meetings which keep you so completely immersed, you loose your sense of who you are and become a frickin tired robot. now they have you, and you are unable to think independantly. lets not forget you will be pressured to join the ministry school so you can become a great, well scripted performer for field service.
it is very clever mind control based on pride, fear and guilt.
the scripture is misused to instill these forms of control, which is very suttle to the unsuspecting and vulnerable.
religious meetings aren't a bad thing but when used to wear down and control it's people that is the opposite of scriptural teaching.

Nathan said...

What I really don't understand, is why all you people are so afraid of your (ex-)elders, overseers, or the GB. If you don't like to visit all 5 meetings, just don’t do it! Nobody is forcing you! True, they will say that you won’t qualify for some special privileges such as being a ministerial servant. Man what a shock! But nobody will kick you out or something similar. You don’t believe me? Just give it a try. Don’t be such cowards!

The real nice thing here is, as I already mentioned in another thread, that people who apparently are no JWs, call JWs defensive, aggressive, etc. Well did you ever think about how the non JWs behave here? JWs are called, stupid, narrow minded, blind, suckers, etc. So much for that. Again, I ask you: what are you afraid of? All this Sissy like: “oh they are so aggressive” does not present one single logical argument why JWs are so bad.

You keep repeating this old sermon over and over again. What I mean? Kimmy jo serves as example for others here too. Always repeating the same old story. Nothing new, no substance in arguments, not interested in solving a matter through serious discussion.

Nathan said...

hey Governing Body Letters,

if you are informed so very well, why didn't you give us update, that there will be changes for field service hours for pioneers and a.p. in september? Didn't you find that when doing your copy and paste work from www.jehovahs-witness.com?

JoePublish said...

OMG! Nathan. Give me a break. You need to step off your pedestal. Kimmy Jo hit the nail on the head about how someone is "pulled" into the JW's organization. It is the JW's on this board who I find with the weaker arguments. I mean look at Anonymous - totally missing the point of this post. Anonymous choose to attack Governing Body Letters, insisting it was his disapproval (even laziness) to attend five meetings. What do you call that? Anonymous totally diverted from the subject at hand. It's typical of zealous JW's to quickly pass judgement (as this is what has been told to them from the platform as to why people buck the meetings). But, it's not laziness, but conscientiousness that causes Governing Body Letters to explain what he has discovered about the meaning of the verses in Hebrews. It sounds logical to me. But as another poster so astutely observed, JW's are trained (bombarded) with mixing WTS teachings with the Bible, they have a hard time seeing the verses for what they actually are saying!

Nathan said...

I should give you a break, joepublish? Did I force you to be in a hurry? I just presented the truth to you. I did never say that JWs posting here have the better arguments, did I? I just said that all this lamentation of ex-JWs complaining about agression from JWs is ridiculous. Just think for a moment. Who started to be aggressive? The author of this blog. Even if everything he wrote was true (which is certainly not the case), often the manner he presented his ideas was not very polite. Neither were the postings of those applauding him. So it seems to be a quite human reaction if a JWs starts to defend what he believes in. True some of them, are not very polite too. But this is certainly no reason for ex-JWs to complain. That is Sissy like.

Concerning your point about argumentation. You are right, not every JWs posting here is doing a good job. But be honest, the argument of kimmi jo only hit his own finger. There are many flaws in his argumentation. e.g.: feeling superior might be true for some individual JWs but they are definitely not supposed to think like that. Again the whole fear argument just does not hold. Except for some of those who really are afraid of their elders. But again this is an individual problem, nothing else. So lay back man

JoePublish said...

Thanks for not agreeing with some of JW replies. I do think that you are upset with Governing Body Letters. And to be honest, I can see why he might upset some JW's. It's interesting though when you do ignore the emotional portions in all the responses and look only at the substance, the JW's don't fair well. I never see responses that deal satisfactorily with the "issue" being raised. It's always a diversion and goes something like this. We have the truth and so we can talk down to you and even judge you because how dare you speak such heresy. Now, just to divert for a moment, because you seem like a better grounded witness than others. How do you feel that the JW’s organization had a pedophilia problem [for decades!] and never told its members – in other words, parents were never put on guard that their children could be in danger?

Anonymous said...

Heb 10:25 'forsake' Greek Enkataleipo (Strong 1459) means in a bad sense to Leave, Abandon or Desert. The same root word was used by Jesus as recorded at Matt 27:46 when he cried out that he felt forsaken by his Father. So Paul's words were not an instruction to attend EVERY gathering together in the way the WTBS interprets it. We are not the owners of each other's faith so it is a personal matter to what degree we choose to associate provided we do not abandon associating altogether.

Anonymous said...

To governing body letter:

Oh I love this! Do you think that when the new religion, Christianity, was developing they weren't organized? .........

Oh, Paul is going to be in town, do you want to hear him talk?

Yeah, sounds great, when will we meet?

Oh, whenever you feel like it.

But when and where is everyone gathering to hear Paul talk?

Just come when you can.

Where should we meet?

Oh, where ever. If we see you on the road or in the fields we'll wave...........huh? Duh?

I have no doubt they had regular times and places to meet and enjoy fellowship. Paul used the regular attendance at the Temple to show up and preach. The Jews had specific times and places to meet to worship Jehovah. It was not "whenever and where ever any of you new Christians feel like it".

1 Co 14:33 "For God is not a God of disorder, but of peace."

How the five meetings a week for Jehovah's Witness evolved over time shows they adjusted to the needs of the congregations as Jehovah's people grew.(And yes, this includes the most recent change in the Book Study arrangement. They have adjusted.)

Once upon a time........ Jehovah's Witnesses were not able to study the same subject on the same Sunday all over the world at one time. Now, due to translating and printing advancements, 7 million plus people, all study the same subject from the Bible, all over the world as a Brotherhood, every week. They do it 52 weeks a year all over this earth. That takes organization. And yes, because the Brothers are so busy, they need a specific time and place to meet so they can plan to be there.

NOW THAT IS UNITY!

I agree with you. Hebrews does not give the amount and time and place for us to gather together.

But using your arguement concerning meetings it will apply in other areas of the Bible, right? If it is not specific, well then....Jehovah's Witnesses must be all wrong.

In Ephesians 5:3,4, Paul said don't even mention uncleanness and fornication among you. But if we follow you logic, since Paul didn't specifically mention computers and porn.....well that must be OK. Right? The Bible doesn't specifically mention DVD's, Blackberries, cell phones,fax's,text messaging, and hundreds of other forms of communication. But if these are used in an inappropriate way, the principles apply.

I repeat....you just don't like to be told what to do, even with something as simple and helpful as meetings. John 8:44

Anonymous said...

"conduct a sales meeting"

Sigh.....I am so tired of you silly people saying that. We do not "sell" anything. Rarely, almost NEVER, do people offer any money for the literature Jehovah's Witnesses bring. We give it away all the time, and then Jehovah's Witnesses donate to cover the cost of the printing.

Paper and ink aren't free. We still live in this old world and it takes money to function. But you know, because you have been the Judas of Bethel for years, that people who are out there do not contribute. Lots of people accept the literature, but SELDOM do they contribute. And we don't ask for money. You KNOW THIS!

Nathan said...

No problem, joepublish. I like the logical way of thinking. So if I recognize weak argumentation I will point that out, no matter if the author of it is a JWs, an ex-JWs or someone else (see some of my previous posts for that).

Well I don’t feel upset about Governing Body Letters (GBL). I would say that I rather feel amused. He is always good for a nice laughter and so are the postings of most people here. I have no problem when people try to fool me, but I want them to give their best when they do so. And sometimes he and others here don’t even give a minimum and still try to fool me and other readers. That is what I don’t really like. So I make fun of people who try to make fun of me but do it in a boring manner. That’s it.

As far as the substance is concerned: well I already admitted that some JWs do not present very good arguments. But if you are honest, observing the scene from an neutral viewpoint, you’ll see that there is not much substance in the arguments of GBL and other ex-JWs as well.

To end up with a serious discussion, one would need to define what “raising an issue” really means. Throwing in some platitudes, assertions and some badly investigated headlines is not really raising an issue. Nonetheless, this is what is done here regularly.

Just a few lines to your “pedophilia problem” (in order that you see that I try to touch exactly the point you mentioned): I am not so sure, if there is such a problem. Hey people, lay back and keep calm! What I mean with this is the following. Of course there is child abuse among JWs and of course this is a very bad thing and it should not be like that! But, let’s face it, child abuse is virtually everywhere in this sick world. What I doubt is that the percentage among JWs is bigger than outside. And this is what would mean a “pedophilia problem”, because then you could conclude that child abuse has to do anything with the religion of JWs itself and not with individuals. But again I really doubt that, and I think you can’t present figures for your point, can you?

To sum it up: Yes child abuse happens also among JWs. This is really bad and it should not be like that! But just as all humans, also JWs are imperfect and not all who belong to JWs nominal really are good Christians. But I think that most are! And I think that not more JWs abuse their children, compared to the rest of the world. I too can’t present figures but I believe that the percentage is less than outside JWs.

They never told their members? Well there have been several articles about child abuse in general in the magazines. So JWs know about the problem and they know what to do against it. But do you know that the Bill Gates company is informing their employees that there is the “pedophilia problem” in the company? Well I don’t know about such a program. And why should they? Anywhere, where so many people are together bad things happen. And people know that. They don’t need to be informed about that more than the general media does. It’s the same for JWs. People should be aware that bad things can happen, just as a Microsoft employee should be aware of it (even without reading about it in the Microsoft company memo). If an individual person is not aware of this, then he is dumb. But this surely is not an organization problem. I hope that answered your point.

kimmy jo said...

anonymousE said,
"Witnesses see the value of these meetings in keeping our faith strong and the value of developing love for our Brothers as we gather together."

Developing Love?!?!?! The Love is superficial and very conditional and everyone is trying to out do each other in the friendly department. Everyone is suspicious of each other, and judgemental. Behind the backs of others they talk. It is the gathering of the "whos who", and look at me's. Oh, don't forget those friendly pedophiles lurking about in the kingdom hall bathrooms. Brotherly love.

Anonymous said...

To Kimmy Jo:

Uh Oh, sounds like someone got their feelings hurt at the Kingdom Hall. Now that is a great reason to leave off serving Jehovah and turn around and beat your fellow slave (brother)!

Anonymous said...

It's obvious the JW defenders aren't real JWs. If they were, they would be steering clear of apostates. If they need apostates to bolster their faith, then what's the point?

That's why the JW defenders tend to be really bitter and twisted: they know they need apostates to feel good about themselves.

And that in itself is pathetic.

Nathan said...

all this "they should stay away from apostates" chatter bores me to death. go and look it up what is meant with apostates. if you meet people on the internet you can never be sure who they are. so you can't be sure if they are or if they were JWs. You just don't know. So if you meet somebody who is attcking JWs you can't tell whether he is an apostate, because you don't know if he really ever was a JWs. And if not, it is just the same as knocking on his door in field service. And even if it was true, there is no problem with refuting ideas of apostates. So again I urge you: don't be that afraid! nothing will happen. no one is going to beat you up. lay back man

JoePublish said...

Nice try Nathan... you know full well that the GB/WTS (through the KM inserts and assembly talks) has strongly advised to stand clear of these sites. Why? For the very reason that you stated, you never know if you are talking to an apostate - if you converse with them you have become sharers with their sins and can be DF'd. You are trying to make it sound like JW's are encouraged to visit these sites - they are not! And if you say different, point me to an article to support the official JW stance on this. Oh, on that note. Point me to one of those pedophilia articles (I've read them all btw) that shows JW's also have this problem - did I miss point in those specific pedophilia issues? On the contrary, it's always the other religions that have this problem. (Which btw, if using your logic with Microsoft, why does the WTS find it necessary to point this problem out in other religions?) You know full well that most JW's aren't even aware that pedophilia has occurred in their organization. You need to visit www.silentlambs.com and take your defensive mechanisms down while you read the many stories. The guest book contains many soured JW's who were shocked to learn of this problem. Since the WTS literature always points to the other religions (i.e. Catholic), it was assumed by most that we (JW's) couldn't have this problem, for why else would you point this problem out in another religion? Wouldn't that be hypocrisy. (As a side, you response is typical spin. Look, I've been around the block and I know when someone is trying put spin on something. But then again, the WTS always does that... so, it's not shocking that it's members pick up on this crafty mechanism for building a smokescreen. btw: It took a worldly newscast (Dateline) with a few conscientious JW's to blow the wistle on the pedophile d/b maintianed in Brooklyn - it contained thousands of names!

JoePublish said...

Nathan, btw, I'm not aware of any children working for Microsoft, are you? (Besides your analogy is foolish, isn't it?) From the site www.silentlambs.org many children have been abused by JW's elders and M.S. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Enw2miiuX_k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhJuUkFclpg&feature=related
Nathan, this is serious stuff, so think before responding. You know that you are not aware of the bad handling/policies of JW's. And, when it was pointed out to the GB, they simply silenced the whistle-blowers. The Interent has a way of balancing the scales when an organization abuses its power - shame on the leaders of JW's for promulgating policies that would protect child abusers!

JoePublish said...

KM 11/1999

13 It has become apparent that the opposite is true. Some Web sites are clearly vehicles for apostate propaganda.

17 Sadly, some who were once our brothers and sisters have had to be disfellowshipped because of association that started by meeting worldly individuals in chat rooms on the Internet and eventually led to immorality. In shocked disbelief, elders have written that some had actually left their husbands or wives to pursue a relationship that began on the Internet. (2 Tim. 3:6) Other individuals have disowned the truth because of believing information provided by apostates. (1 Tim. 4:1, 2) Given these very serious dangers, does it not seem reasonable to be cautious about becoming involved in chat sessions on the Internet? Certainly, exercising the wisdom, knowledge, thinking ability, and discernment spoken of at Proverbs 2:10-19 should safeguard us in this."

Governing Body Letters said...

Nathan, would you tell me specifically where I have tried to fool you and others? Thank you.

Governing Body Letters said...

"In Ephesians 5:3,4, Paul said don't even mention uncleanness and fornication among you. But if we follow you logic, since Paul didn't specifically mention computers and porn.....well that must be OK. Right? The Bible doesn't specifically mention DVD's, Blackberries, cell phones,fax's,text messaging, and hundreds of other forms of communication. But if these are used in an inappropriate way, the principles apply."
------
The scriptures say that all things are lawful but that not all things are beneficial. You are an adult, created by Jehovah, just as the Governing Body members are. Do you really need them to tell you which things are wrong for you and which are not?

JoePublish said...

Actually, I have more hope for Nathan, than Anonymous (1) and Ronde, as Nathan - I believe - will continue to read sites such as www.Freeminds.org and www.Silentlambs.org and www.SixscreensoftheWatchtower.com and www.Jwfacts.com (etc.) not to mention the many very well-down videos on Youtube (i.e. WTComments). The logic of what is presented will no doubt appeal to Nathan. These sites present views (and many proof texts) that are real eye-openers [if one allows himself to read it with an unbiased viewpoint]. For instance, JW’s are told that they can’t join the YMCA even if they only plan on using the pool or exercise equipment: “Questions From Readers ● Is it true that for religious reasons Jehovah’s Witnesses may not become members of the YMCA (Young Men’s Christian Association)? Yes, that is so. We have long recognized that the YMCA, though not being a church as such, is definitely aligned with the religious organizations of Christendom in efforts to promote interfaith.” … When you read on these web sites that the WTS became an NGO of the [wild beast] United Nations and then they explain it was for use of their library only {which turned out to be a half-truth}, that’s a red flag! – double standard. God’s organization caught lying and deceiving its adherents, with no apology what-so-ever. Amazing and shocking!!!

Nathan said...

Hi joepublish. Thanks for your advice, but I am used to choosing my words quite carefully, so don’t be afraid. I wish I could say the same about you. Unfortunately you did not touch all of my arguments, and your response to my Microsoft comparison shows that you only did a very shallow analysis of what I wrote you. That is a bit sad, because I have no desire in wasting words here (more on that later on).

You are right; we can find the advice in some talks and magazines that JWs should be cautious what websites they visit. In this connection there is also the remark that talking to apostates and others could be a waste of time and could be harmful for the thoughts of a JWs. I never said, that there have never been such advices. The difference is, and you should really try to understand that, that every person has to decide for himself what he does and what he does not do. There is nothing like a law, that JWs are not allowed to refute arguments of apostates or others on websites. This is all I said, and this is of course valid! I never said, that they are encouraged to visit such websites, but you won’t be disfellowshipped if you do so! Refuting arguments of people on the internet can never make you a sharer of there sins. This is nonsense! I don’t need to point to an specific article in this regard. As I said there are articles that are warning JWs of dangers in the internet, but there is no law against refuting arguments of people.

Yes you might be true. I do not remember exactly, but maybe there never was an article that mentioned the problem of paedophilia among JWs. But as you said yourself, you completely missed the point. First, why should those articles mention this, since this is not a problem that is inherent in the religion (compare that for example to the celibacy of catholic priests). Well I don’t want to guess how many percent of JWs are aware that there are bad people among them, and so shouldn’t you. All you can say here is your personal experience which is of zero relevance statistically! The same is true for stories on www.silentlamb.com.

To your side comment: I am always trying to put my arguments straight forward in order that they are easy to understand. I don’t feel any need to twist any hypotheses or to make things appear different from what they are. So I won’t accept this kind of comment!

Here now comes the point, where one can easily see you shallow analysis of what I said. You didn’t even touch the surface and you failed to understand the comparison. Nevertheless you are very fast to call it foolish. Well that’s interesting to me! Of course there are no children working at Microsoft, but this is not the point! Go read my last post again and try to find out the point! I was saying that it is for a certainty that there will be some people doing evil, when you take a large population. The population can be JWs or employees of Microsoft or something else. That simply does not matter. Maybe your information is more up to date than mine, but I guess that some people at Microsoft have children. And there will also be a lot of employees who know each other, who are friends. Some of them will sometimes leave their children at the house of a fellow employee who should look after them. And here comes the problem in again. Or think of a company kinder garden and company celebrations, field days etc. All being possibilities for wicked people. So my comparison perfectly fits! Haven’t you been able to think this little for yourself, before calling my comparison foolish?

So again, there are several points of my last posting you didn’t touch, which remain valid until now. So go refute them with valid arguments or accept them please.

It is also interesting that you seem to know what I know and what I do not know. How is it that you assert that I am not aware of the handling of different matter by JWs?

Regarding your quotation from KM 1999. I am sure you can do better and find an article that fits your reasoning a little more. Read what you quoted to us carefully! There is nowhere said, that JWs were disfellowshipped because they visited chatrooms! They were disfellowshipped because the result of chatting was immorality! So immorality was the reason why they were disfellowshipped. And this surely is a law of the Bible.

Btw. Thanks that you have more hope for me, but I must disappoint you. I don’t visit many sites like this. This is just one of my favourites as is www.jehovahs-witness.com (which the author of this blog seems to like as well). Actually I arrived here through accident, but I am not afraid of talking to people here.

@ governing body letters: you want a specific answer? Here it comes. What you are doing here is mere propaganda! I think you know that! I am not sure if you will admit it here, but I am sure that you are aware of it. Per definition propaganda is trying to fool people. QED.

To be a little more specific: Some of your postings are better some are really weak. They show that you also do shallow analysis and that you use lurid headlines and things like that. It is also evident that you don’t write out of a neutral position, but like, let’s say, if you are really pissed. This is also not a sign of good journalism. In this way this is also fooling people, like a bad newspaper.

Just my two cents.

Governing Body Letters said...

"@ governing body letters: you want a specific answer? Here it comes. What you are doing here is mere propaganda! I think you know that! I am not sure if you will admit it here, but I am sure that you are aware of it. Per definition propaganda is trying to fool people. QED.

To be a little more specific: Some of your postings are better some are really weak. They show that you also do shallow analysis and that you use lurid headlines and things like that. It is also evident that you don’t write out of a neutral position, but like, let’s say, if you are really pissed. This is also not a sign of good journalism. In this way this is also fooling people, like a bad newspaper."
------------
Nathan, thank you for answering my question and giving me specifics. However, whether you believe it or not, I am not trying to fool anyone. I am just presenting the facts as I know them. I have been in the truth for many decades and have served in several leadership capacities. I have seen the workings of the Watchtower from the inside out. My goal is simply to present the facts as I know them. That's all.
I am not a journalist and this blog is not and was never meant to be completely neutral. It is, of course, influenced by my experiences.
Propaganda is what the Watchtower is so adept at. They willfully and constantly try to fool people, to pull the wool over the eyes of their members so that their true nature is not revealed.
You say that I use "lurid" headlines. That is your opinion and you are entitled to it. I use headlines that peak curiosity. I hope they work. Maybe something behind the "lurid" headline will cause a person to rethink their position. I hope so.
I am not bitter. But I am anxious and afraid for the people that are in this religion. I have seen people die needless deaths for obeying the Bibical interpretations of men. I have seen too many lives ruined and families broken up because of the opinions of mere men, which they claim are the wishes of Jehovah. How could they be the wishes of Jehovah when they are voted on by a show of hands, no prayer offered, no scriptures read?
I just want people to open their eyes and to see that the Watchtower organization is not some holy institution but simply a billion dollar, world wide corporation, disguising itself as a religion. By doing so they can operate tax free and con people into working for them on a volunteer basis.

JoePublish said...

I find Governing Body Letters response to be sincere. And as far as propaganda goes, the WTS are the "experts" on this.

JoePublish said...

Oh, btw Nathan. Why not supply your full name and congregation. I'm sure the elders would love to talk with you. I mean, you seem to think they would have no problem with you associating with apostates on this site. So, put you money where your mouth is, sort of speak. LOL

Nathan said...

Hey governing body letters. I believe you.All you said may bet he real reasons why you started this blog. But this does not change the facts. In your last post you admitted that this blog only represents your own ideas, thoughts and experience. There is no problem with this. The problem only starts when you begin to present everything you write as facts. This is a critical point. In some of your posts you present us your own interpretations of the Bible. But you don’t say that this is your interpretation and that it could be wrong. Instead you tell us that JWs are wrong and evil people because they don’t share the interpretation you give. And this is no valid kind of argumentation.

@ joepublish. Wow that is a monster of an answer. I hope it didn’t take you too long to write it. You are starting the elders thing again? I think I already wrote enough about it here. You must have been really afraid of them. But in order that you can sleep well, I will tell you something. I am having a lot of discussions with one of the elders in my congregation (who I suppose is the most intellectual of them) and there is no problem with it. And the others? Well some say, “are you sure, that you should really write to such people”, and others say: “it is not a good idea to write to such people”. That’s it! Nothing happens. I even talked to a member of the GB regarding some points I heard about on th internet and told him where my information came from. No problem. So as I said several times already: stop being afraid!

(Well and please try to understand that refuting arguments has nothing to do with associating with apostates in the sense of the Bible.)

Governing Body Letters said...

"The problem only starts when you begin to present everything you write as facts. This is a critical point. In some of your posts you present us your own interpretations of the Bible. But you don’t say that this is your interpretation and that it could be wrong. Instead you tell us that JWs are wrong and evil people because they don’t share the interpretation you give. And this is no valid kind of argumentation."
---------
Nathan, this is unfair. While I may express my opinion from time to time, the information I present are facts. That is what makes them so powerful. I show actual letters from the Governing Body, I quote Watchtower magazines and the Society's publications verbatim. These are not my opinions, they are the renderings and opinions of the Watchtower Society. I am attempting to show that the Watchtower is not God's organization, it never was and it never will be. Sometimes the interpretation is obvious and I can't help that. If the Watchtower says something other than what Jesus taught and I point that out, do you call that my own opinion?

I do not think that Jehovah's Witnesses are evil. Most Jehovah's Witnesses truly believe that they are following God. I believe that the organization is governed by evil, powerful men, who have corrupted the Word of God and who use it's members to their own advantage.

I am going to tell you something that perhaps I shouldn't, and you probably won't believe anyway, but I have seen Governing Body members laugh at the publishers because they so readily accept anything that is fed to them. It's why they will write something one week and change it the next. They know that no matter what, the brothers will blindly accept it. They show no respect for the members they govern.

Nathan said...

Hey Governing body letters. I don't belieb that my statements are unfair. Quotation alone can never be facts. It is the manner how you link them and what conclusions you draw that present facts or mere fairytales then. For an example look at my answer to your article "This Good News of The Kingdom". There I show what wrong conclusions you drew.

JoePublish said...

Hi Nathan... I don't care to take the time to destroy your shallow and immature reasoning (likening Bill Gates to the GB... yikes). I don't know the last time Bill Gates said Microsoft is the only true religion. The GB knew of the d/b of pedophiles and chose not to warn its members - how wrong is that! But, they find no problem in criticizing other religions for the same problem - so it's you who should go back and reread what you wrote – didn’t you say there was no need for anyone to point this out in today’s world. You also said ‘of course there’s child abuse in JW’s organization’. Wow, that’s a laughable statement. Can you imagine going to a door with that line??? OMG! At a recent meeting, the brother from the platform was discussing trust and how it can't be found in the world. He then said, 'look to the brother on your left and look to the brother on your right, these are the people you can trust'. Well, tell that to the children who suffered child molestation in the WTS organization. Also, it's interesting to me how disunited the elder's responses were to your inquiries. I'm glad you notified all readers on this site about this disunity because that is another thing they brag about – how united they are. Then again, some elder's (appointed by Holy Spirit when they were a "known pedophile") have gone to jail for abusing children in the JW's organization, so I'm not really sure you can put your trust in any elder. The one good thing you are doing Nathan is reading these critical sites. You're too young and insensitive to understand the full import of these critical sites, but in time it will hit you hard. There have been many JW's who have visited www.silentlambs.org [and other critical sites] and are so shocked it has caused them to rethink this man-made/man-run organization. btw: I don't believe anything you told me about those elders responses or talking to a GB member. Take care and I don't want to continue to give you a chance to continue arguing as that is your only goal and you know it. Enjoy the new school year.

JoePublish said...

To Governing Body Letters. I read you last reply to Nathan and your story at the end (about GB members laughing at the publishers for believing everything they write). This story is most revealing and even more disturbing. I’ve enjoyed the many documents and comparisons to actual Biblical texts which contradict WT doctrine. And, yes, I understand what you are saying. It’s not the members who are evil (so many are very nice people, they’re simply mislead). It’s the leaders who are so culpable to God it isn’t even funny. Where is their (the GB’s) conscience in these matters (i.e. mistakes in doctrine and no apologizing, pedophilia mishandling, lying to the congregations about their involvement in the United Nations as an NGO, etc. etc.)? More than ever I understand the title of Ray Franz’s book: “Crisis of Conscience”.

Nathan said...

Hey joepublish. Unfortunately the only thing you achieved through your last posting was to show that you are capable of serious discussion. The best is, that you showed it yourself, without anyone else having to reveal it. It is open for the readers here to judge whether you behave like a grown up or not.

Your reaction is typical for someone who does not find reasonable arguments to refute valid points from others. You call the other one immature and the reasoning shallow without giving examples for it and you say that you don’t want to spend time answering it etc. This is how people usually react if they have nothing of substance to say. People here know that! Also ridiculing the other one in order to stand on a pedestal yourself does not serve your arguments. It even weakens your standpoint. Poor you.

Further, you try to pervert a perfectly fitting illustration in order that you don’t have to answer to it seriously. The question never was whether Bill gates said that Microsoft is the true religion. The point was a completely different one. You either failed to understand the point, or you didn’t counter arguments so you tried to make fun of the comparison. This is really weak behaviour. To see what the point is, again I tell you go back and read my last posting again. I made it crystal clear!

I know what I said joepublish. I said that there is no need to tell people that there are evil persons in the world, that goes beyond what media does. The Watchtower magazine is part of the world media and as such can write articles about it. Further I told you that the articles also gave hints what to do against child abuse, how to prevent it. Which is a completely different story. So there was no contradiction in what I said. Again you just try to make a cheap point here, but you failed to do so.

Yes I said, that there is child abuse among JWs. There will also be murderers among JWs. I already explained you why. Not every nominal JWs is a real good Christian. But these things are not inherent for the religion. If you think different proof it! The difference is that JWs kick out such people when they learn about such crimes. This is very different from what other religions do! So give yourself a better try man.

Disunited elders? You can’t be serious about that. How old are you? Or put different: how cheap do your tricks get? This is a question of conscience, so of course different people will react in a different way. This has nothing to do with being disunited. Such a nonsense.

You not only seem to know what I know and what I do not know, you also seem to know how old I am. Now that’s the peak of arrogance. You don’t even have a clue about my age, but call me too young. That’s absurd.

You criticize the elders in my congregation that they are disunited and then you tell me that you don’t believe what I said? Are you schizophrenic? But it is interesting to read that you don’t believe me. You criticise others here that they don’t believe everything you or governingbodyletters has to say, but you yourself don’t believe what you don’t like to hear. You don’t care if it is true or not. Do you really think I would lie to you on such a little thing as that? I don’t think so. But you make it appear like that, because then you don’t have to answer seriously, and you don’t have to feel nervous then.

Funny, but it is not up to you to give me chances for arguing or not. I guess the only one who can kick me out here is governingbodyletters. And I am not sure if even he can. You don’t have to answer my postings anymore, if you don’t want. But there will still be postings from me. But maybe it is better for both of us. You don’t have valid arguments to refute mine, so it is better for you to remain silent, although I don’t know if persisting in error is a real mature thing. On the other hand I don’t have to spend time to answer to someone who feels pressured and angry and is not capable of fruitful discussion.

All in all it may be better for if I do no longer indulge in your abuse of discussion.

Nathan said...

Btw joepublish, you don't believe what I told you about elders in my congragation, but you believe what governingbodyletters told you about some GB members? Why is that? It seems that you no neither of us personally. So why believe what one says but not the other? This clearly shows that you are not interested in truth, but you only believe things that would back your viewpoint, no matter if your viewpoint is completely wrong. Good job, now you can give yourself a cookie!

JoePublish said...

Young People Ask . . .
What’s the Harm in Using Sarcasm? – 1991 9/22

It may be, though, that you have a “gift” for sarcasm. Friends howl at your stinging one-liners and put-downs. They cheer you on and encourage you to weave more clever words. Or it may be that sarcasm has become your primary means of self-defense. Armed with weaponlike words, you wound and cripple anyone who poses any sort of threat to your well-being—or to your ego. You may even occasionally find yourself saying harsh words to your parents or siblings.

Indeed, the English word “sarcasm” is derived from a Greek verb that literally means “to tear flesh like dogs.” (Compare Galatians 5:15.)

The best way to avoid being a victim of sarcasm, though, is to avoid using it yourself. Says the Golden Rule: “All things, therefore, that you want men to do to you, you also must likewise do to them.” (Matthew 7:12) When you apply this rule, you can avoid being a user—and perhaps a victim—of hurtful, sarcastic speech.

Awake 91 1/8
From Our Readers - Sarcasm

"I appreciated your article “Young People Ask . . . What’s the Harm in Using Sarcasm?” (September 22, 1991) This is something I have been guilty of for many years. It has mostly been in the so-called witty manner, but in retrospect I see that it has also been a kind of self-defense mechanism, masking long-standing feelings of inferiority."

Nathan said...

Nice quotation. If all people here would behave like it, there would be more fruitful discussion and less of the "oh i don’t know what to say so i either call others dumb or remain silent" attitude.

but can it be the case that this is the wrong thread for the quotation (I am sure governingbodyletters will have to say something on the young people ask book too), or can it be the case that your quotation is nothing but a little sarcastic?

another interesting defence algorithm.

JoePublish said...

http://governingbodyletters.blogspot.com/2008/08/now-for-something-funny-jehovahs.html

I thought “the best” part of this video (alluded to above) was when the mirror was held up to show the reflection of JW’s. So well done and so true!

Nathan said...

Well joe proven wrong, case closed.

JoePublish said...

Case opened:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfDIrPdBQgw

You can go directly to this thought provoking video on YouTube. View the whole thing and then check out the references before drawing any conclusions...

Nathan said...

Well this little comedy does not open the case again. Why should it? Regarding Brenda Lee, well should I write a book now about a child growing up among JWs that was educated and raised in a loving manor? Then the situation is en par again. You don't seem to be acquainted with simple statistics.

JoePublish said...

That's all JW's (like you) are concerned with, statistics!

Feelings don't count and are to be tossed out the window. You are to become robots - don't use your own mind, we'll (the GB) decide how you think and feel.

If you're abused by an elder, get over it.

If you didn't join the YMCA because the Watchtower said it's wrong and then the same Watchtower joins the UN as an NGO, and you find out about it and are disgusted... just get over it.

One of those heartless JWs you are Nathan. (I don't believe all JW's behave as you.)

Nathan said...

well joe publish, the way you judge people shows what condition your heart has. so you should be a bit slower to call others heartless.

as I told you, if you know about a certain abuse of a child, go and report it to the police. this is in fact all you can do! it is the same within JWs or outside. after a bad thing happened, all you can do is report it to the police and take care of the victim. that's it. if you choose to do so, no one will discipline you. what you say is simply not true. it is only hatred that speaks out of you.

one of my biggest laughters was that you said JWs are only concerned about statistics. most JWs don't know about the fundamentals of statistics. the same is unfortunately true of you! and as always, when confronted with a truth, you don't hav arguments against, you try to pull a cheap trick out. that doesn't work man!

JoePublish said...

Nathan, review your posts, you have judged every non-JW's apologist here (with your name calling)... do you even under the meaning of hypocrite?

I'm not surprised if you really don’t as your organizational mother practices hypocrisy and you cannot see that with your eyes of discernment. You’re in denial.

You said, "most JWs don't know about the fundamentals of statistics."

What in the world are you talking about? You are so self-righteous and self-exalted. Why not busy yourself with some algorithm (remember the use of that word in another post of yours?). I apologize to the other readers, but Nathan is on a superiority complex always trying to “sound” intelligent, as if you say, ‘I’m intelligent, (don’t I sound it?) so you can believe me over the US court documents about Pedophilia in JW’s organization’.

Pride comes before a fall brother. (btw: One of the reasons the WTS settled out of court is because” the evidence” turned over “by the WTS” revealed that abuse victims and their parents were warned NOT to got to the police. It’s documented you egghead!) Now, if you’re talking about some change in this policy, then say it instead of giving the ruse that this has always been the case – boy, talk about others twisting things.

What’s interesting to take note of for any who are neither pro nor con JW’s is how quick to take offense JW’s are when you talk about the bad things that happened in JW’s organization. Their literature and talks do this ALL THE TIME with other religions – JW’s teach about other religions, ‘they are Satan’s false religious organizations and practice wicked things’.

However, when it’s their own religion that is in the press for bad conduct, they are quick to “spin” the news their way – they will stop at nothing, even blaming parents and the children (as Nathan’s fellow JW does, Ronde.). It’s just ludicrous how they can try and defend this. JW’s are also the first to say that they are being persecuted because of their beliefs when bad news comes out. They are nothing but a bunch of whiners trying to win your sympathy for their humongous mistakes and crimes.

Please give me a break you JW’s apologists… I’ll let the critical “documents” found on the Internet speak for themselves – I know the US court did.

Nathan said...

Joe, review your posts, you have judged every JW's apologist here… do you even under(stand) the meaning of hypocrite (hypocrisy)?” (words in parenthesis filled in by me).

Why can we say that my statement is truer than yours, although I just copied yours? Because I am discussing with people here, you are just throwing mud! It makes me rolling on the floor laughing, when I read postings from defensive people who feel pressured like you, and who behave awkward. The only thing they accomplish in such situations is to throw mud. They try to put themselves on a pedestal and try to discredit the one whom they are afraid of, by using impolite language. Examples for that? You call me “egghead”. You call me “boy”, as if you were older than me and as if I was a child. But unfortunately this won’t make your day.

You said: “That's all JW's (like you) are concerned with, statistics!”. I answered: “most JWs don't know about the fundamentals of statistics.” And then you answered on that: “What in the world are you talking about?” Are you serious about that question? My answer was direct to you completely wrong assertion, and you don’t know what I am talking about? Maybe you should step back a little any give yourself another try!

Lol, I am self-righteous and self-exalted? People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. Through your postings your clearly show that you think that anybody who does not share your opinion is an idiot. Well I think that is self-righteous. Funny that you say I am self-exalted because I said that most JWs don’t know about the fundamentals of statistics. Would you say the same if I would say that most people in the world do not know about the fundamentals of quantum mechanics? I doubt that you would. Why? Just because it is the truth! And it’s the same with statistics. Statistics is a highly specified field of research, and no one who does not work or study this field will understand it. The same is true for all disciplines. And there is no problem with it. The problem only starts when people who don’t understand a certain matter start to talk about it like if they knew anything about it (like you did). So in your opinion it makes me self-exalted to state a simple truth? Quite interesting.

Ok Joe, in your opinion someone who uses the word “algorithm” tries to sound intelligent? So in your opinion “algorithm” is such an important word that only very intelligent people know and use it, or those who try to like a very intelligent one? Maybe you should extend your thesaurus, because nobody else believes that. Algorithm is a simple word and I am quite sure that the readers of this thread understand it. But if you love complicated words, you will gaze in awe when I present these words to you: “and”, “the”, “car” etc. It is so ridiculous to blame someone for using a word like algorithm. And it is even more ridiculous if you try to make fun of me in such a poor way.

Well joe, I said that there is nothing wrong with informing the police. Go to the offender (the crime he committed doesn’t really matter. The procedure is the same for nearly every crime) and tell him that he has to settle the matter (this might include to go to the police). If he doesn’t do so, take a second person with you and ask him again to do so. If he doesn’t go to the elders. If he still refuses, he is like a man from the nations. Then go and inform the police if you want. Nothing will happen to you. And nothing happened to you if you did. Nothing is new about this. No twist needed, no ruse needed, joe.

“What’s interesting to take note of for any who are neither pro nor con JW’s is how quick to take offense non-JW’s are when” they try to discredit JWs. Mostly it is those people who were personally disappointed (often connected to their blown egos).

Your last paragraph again shows that you are full of hatred. And another generalization! Why do you do it? Because you know that I am the first to admit that there is child abuse, unfortunately also among JWs. I never tried to hide it. I only showed that this is not inherent (will you mock me because of this difficult word?) for the religion. You just can’t blame me for it.

The only one who can give you a break is yourself. Stop reading this blog and you’ll get a break from JWs who expose your hatred.

JoePublish said...

NO hatred here Nathan (believe me... I don't hate you or Ronde or any JW, but I will call things the way I see them, esp. when I see defenses that do not represent the real truth)... you (and other JW's apologists) just don't like that I vocalized what disturbed "me" about Jehovah's Witnesses "cover-up" of pedophilia. I have a right to feel this way.

It is at the heart of my replies because (as you know) when the WTS can highlight "other" religions coverup of pedophilia BUT when they are knowingly guilty of the same thing, what is a person (any observer for that fact) to think of this religion?

Can you not feel the disappointment I have for the GB's handling of this?

And, can you not feel the fellow feeling I have for all those poor innocence children who were sexually abused in this religion?

Listen, there was talk recently in which a brother said to the audience... look to the brother to the left of you and now to the brother to the right of you - these are the people you can really trust, not the world's association. Young children "believe" that and when they are told by their parents to not let people touch their privates, how do they intrepret all the conflicting messages they hear today??? If I have sound irrated at times, it's because Ronde presents a very callous and immature response to this. He can't seem to get this point.]

I think this subject brings out emotion and that's what your are misintrepreting as hatred... I know I have been hard with you and Ronde, but it disturbs me to no end that people try to spin the pedophilia problem that existed in this religion - to protect their image - when MOST MEMBERS had no clue and WERE NEVER INFORMED INTERNALLY OF IT. (Those two "facts" are indisputable. The letter about the 1st dateline expose was only after they knew it was going to air... they weren't planning on notifying internal members if it didn't go to the press first.)

That's all I have to say on the subject. No bad feelings about you people personally... really.

Nathan said...

Well joe, I didn’t say that you hate me personally (or Ronde or others). You’ve just treated me impolite, but I am used to that. This is what most people who don’t like JWs do. I said that you must be full of hatred, although I don’t know why. Maybe your ego was hurt by JWs. I don’t know, but at least you sound like that.

You can call things the way you want. I don’t have a problem with that, as long as you state that that is your opinion and as long as you don’t present it as fact! Actually I like it very much when people say what they think, because this doesn’t happen too often.

As has been discussed here several times, your comparison just does not hold! The WTS is not guilty of pedophilia, it is just a few members who are. And that is a huge difference.

Yes I can feel your disappointment, that’s why I said you must be full of hatred.

I can perfectly understand your fellow feelings for the poor children. But you should have fellow feelings for all children who were sexually abused. The surrounding does not matter in that context.

You’ve already narrated this story about the talk. Well there is nothing wrong with that statement. This sentence was uttered for adults who perfectly know what the speaker meant. He was saying that JWs GENERALLY are good people and try to help each other and don’t want to hurt each other. Well and that is the truth. He wasn’t saying that every JWs is perfect, commits no sins, will never do something bad, or might never fall apart from what the Bible teaches. Young children don’t even get the sense of such sentences, because they don’t listen very much, as you know very well. Further they have their parents to educate them. No public talk will educate them. If you believe that this talk was dangerous for young children, then it would really be better if you spend your time somewhere else. Go to a forum where people want to prohibit television. It is by far more dangerous for children than such a talk.

I am neither Ronde’s personal assistant, nor am I responsible for him. So no need to treat me like him.

I really don’t try to spin anything. I just don’t follow cheap propaganda, that’s all. If you sak, let’s say 100 JWs, if they think that it is possible that children were abused among JWs they will answer with “yes”. The kind of internally information you have in mind, doesn’t make sense. Again I ask you to reread my Microsoft comparison. And then think about it. I know that it fits. It is right, and you will see that if you are honest.

Nevertheless, you didn’t touch any statements of my last posting. You don’t have to if you want, but I want to remind you that those were the truth.

JoePublish said...

Nathan, you are so confused about this matter. Yes, the predator is foremost guilty.

However, the GB is equally quilty of weak policies that tied the elder’s hands. They are guilty of not finding a more direct way of warning its members that we do have pockets of pedophilia in our organization. They opted to cover this abuse problem up from the rank and file Jehovah’s Witnesses. It’s called the sins of omission. The GB keeping quiet about a matter like this works to the favor of predators, not children. How did you learn details about this Nathan… the GB never divulged any details… you learned it on the Internet.

BTW: I feel for children in any religion who have been abused… here’s where you’re being shamefully ridiculous Nathan. This particular discussion was about JW’s (was any other religion mentioned in this context?) But, true to form, JW’s like you try to use diversion to bring down its opponents who have solid points of criticism. Don’t you see how the Watchtower (and talks) does that all the time?)

With today's mobile society, these predators could end up in any congregation – never a warning to its rank and file.

I've read the court records on this (which included WTS confidential letters about this matter and they are very disturbing)

I see plenty of holes in your arguments above, HOWEVER like GBL indicates so often about blinded JW's, you can't see the forest for the trees.

p.s. And, of course pedophilia is not "inherent in JW's religion". I never said that – that’s just another attempt on your part Nathan of diversion. I'm sure when Bill Bowen coined that term Pedophile Paradise, he was alluding to the weak policies of the GB/WTS regarding pedophilia handling; the policies inadvertently protected the pedophile, not the children who would eventually be sexually abused. Again, the “court records” revealed the "truth" of that term Pedophile Paradise – and it was a very appropriate term indeed!
.

Nathan said...

Getting upset again, joe? It is so easy for one to read that out of your postings.

Well in fact I am not confused at all about this matter. It is your personal opinion that they “are guilty of not finding a more direct way of warning its members”. Nothing more. I explained it to you. My illustration still holds. You did not find any counter argument until now! Nothing is done in favour of predators!

Maybe you learned about everything on the Internet joe, but there are other means of information too. Go and talk to some elders. Go and talk to GB members. Well I did. But here comes in again, that you call me a liar! This is neither polite nor productive. I told you that I talked to both, you denied it. That is your choice, but it does not make your reasoning any better.

I was in no way ridiculous. I was just a little ironic (not to be mixed up with sarcastic). You put it, like you only have fellow feelings for abused children among JWs. Go read your own post. And does not make sense. Now you admitted that you feel for children in any religion. But you miss the point again. You should feel for all children who were sexually abused. It does not matter if the surrounding was religious or not. I am sure, in fact, that you feel for ALL children. But that is the point. That is not a question of religion. But by introducing religion to your statement you put it like children of JWs were especially poor, which is not the case. Where was the solid point of criticism?

It seems you like phrases like “ruse”, “spin”, “diversion” etc. I am always very plain and straight forward. If you want to criticize me with respect to one of these phrases, show how exactly I did it. Don’t say “here you it”, say where exactly and show how exactly!

They can’t end up in any congregation. That’s rubbish. If they are convicted, they will be thrown out of the congregation. True they might come back some time later, but this is the same in the whole society. After people are released from prison they are allowed to live a free life.

You see plenty holes in my arguments? Go give us details! I am not afraid of you joe. Tell us where the holes exactly are, tell us what they look like and tell us why they are holes! Everything else is mere assertion and makes it even more likely that you just don’t find holes you could attack.

@ your p.s.: You said “of course pedophilia is not "inherent in JW's religion”. Well QED! That is all that I said! Nothing more. Finally you share my opinion? But you never said that it is? Are you sure you know the meaning of the word “inherent”? Of course you put it like it was inherent. The whole discussion does not make any sense if you don’t think it is inherent in JWs! If you really are of that opinion the only thing you can say is that “pedophilia is a cruel and bad crime that should be punished very strictly”. We all would agree on that. But this statement would have nothing to do with JWs! Again, no attempt of diversion!

For the sake of statistics, let’s ask people here a question: Do you think that joe publish presented the opinion here, that easy child abuse is inherent in JWs?

Again I have to tell you that you didn’t touch my arguments of the last two postings at all. If the holes really are so big, why didn’t you manage to present them along with your counter arguments, for everybody to read? And please leave me alone with poor rhetoric, attempts to make fun of me, insults on my person and zero-substance statements like “I know where you are wrong”.

JoePublish said...

"If they are convicted, they will be thrown out of the congregation."

And, if there's only one-witness???

JoePublish said...

... and the predator claims innocence?

Nathan you don't know me and I don't know you. I'm not filled with hatred. Just "righteous indignation" of the GB's mis-handling of this.

And, of course, I feel bad for anyone (even if they don't have a religion) who has been sexually abused. But there again, you try to divert from the points I have made about court records on the matter regarding JW's.

The GB settled these cases. If they were "squeaky" clean about this matter, I can "assure" you that they would never have done so!

Nathan said...

as I siad if they are convicted! you even quoted that. no question of a second witness there!

I didn't try to divert any of your points. Yes the cases were settled. So what? Go and read Frank's excellent coverage about it. (I am sure that you will call all he said nonesense ant not true, but this is your opinion then, nothing more. So the opinions on the settlements are en par then at best)

JoePublish said...

How is that the "worldly" courts could find him guilty without a second witness?, when the predator denies it in court? Is the Bible wrong on this application of two witnesses to child abuse? ... or is the interpretation wrong?

Nathan, you said above: "Go and talk to GB members. Well I did."

I know you won't reveal names and I'm not asking you to do that.

However, could you give me the approximate date that you had this conversation with GB members. By the way was it more than one you spoke to? The plural ("s") indicates more than one. If so, how many.

Also, what did you say (ask) and what was (his/their) response?

The reason I ask is that they have not been forthcoming about this to the rank and file, at large. It seems you have to ask them about it.

So, please let me know when, with how many GB members, and how the conversation went. What did they say in defense of their policies?
Did they answer all your questions to your satisfaction?

Thank you ahead of time for your response.

Nathan said...

Well without any proofs no one will be convicted, but this is how the system works. Why should the Bible be wrong about the two witnesses? Assertion against assertions does not solve a single case at courts. More is needed, for example a second witness. But this has nothing to do with the things I said about what happens to people who ARE convicted by courts.

The approximate date? Well the last time was about 2 months ago. About specific topics, 1 and a half year ago. To be honest, about specific topics it was only one of them. And yes my questions were answered (I asked about several topics, including the UN story).

But again, you didn’t touch my arguments! And also not my requests!

JoePublish said...

Nathan answered: "The approximate date? Well the last time was about 2 months ago. About specific topics, 1 and a half year ago. To be honest, about specific topics it was only one of them. And yes my questions were answered (I asked about several topics, including the UN story)."

Can you be any more vague?

You know Nathan, this was your chance and you pretty much gave me the answer I thought you would say.

Very disappointed in you Nathan because now I see all your responses/replies as very questionable, at best.

Have a nice day.

Nathan said...

What kind of answer is that supposed to be? You asked me for an approximate date! Although this really is none of your business, I answered you the question! Do you really think that I remember the exact day? No I don’t. Would the exact day be of any value for the discussion? No it wouldn’t. Would the exact date change any of my points? No it wouldn’t.

You asked if my question were answered. I told you, yes they were. I had absolutely no reason to doubt the answers I got. I won’t renarrate the whole conversation, because that would not make any sense. But how does this affect all my arguments that have nothing to do with the conversation? Not at all!

This was my chance for what, joe? I answered your question, although they were none of your business and although your questions do not contribute anything to the discussion. They are of zero value!

You accuse me of diverting things? Man, slowly but surely I get angry! You are wasting my time here. I presented you a big bunch of profound arguments! I even answered question you asked that don’t contribute to the topic. What else do you want? You say that ALL my responses are questionable, because I cannot remember the exact date of a conversation? Reboot your brain, man! That is such a piece of crap! And that is hardcore diversion! You accuse other people of things you do on a big scale! This is hypocrisy!

My arguments are logically sound! They have nothing to do with personal opinion! They have nothing to do with a single conversation! Thus they can’t be questionable (especially not because I don’t know the exact date of a conversation)! You are just trying to discredit my arguments, because you don’t know how to answer! Why do I, well why do we, the readers of the thread, know? At least in your last five postings you did not present any counterargument to one of my arguments! You did not present any so called “hole” in my argumentation. True, you don’t do that much in any thread, but that only shows how weak your postings are! However, particularly your last 5 postings were of zero substance!

I asked you several times to be exact! For example I quote my last but two posting here: “You see plenty holes in my arguments? Go give us details! I am not afraid of you joe. Tell us where the holes exactly are, tell us what they look like and tell us why they are holes! Everything else is mere assertion and makes it even more likely that you just don’t find holes you could attack.” And also: “Again I have to tell you that you didn’t touch my arguments of the last two postings at all. If the holes really are so big, why didn’t you manage to present them along with your counter arguments, for everybody to read? And please leave me alone with poor rhetoric, attempts to make fun of me, insults on my person and zero-substance statements like “I know where you are wrong”.”

So tell me, where are your answers? Where are your arguments? Where are the “holes” in mine? You just don’t touch what you are afraid of. You just don’t admit that you have nothing if value to say against my argumentation. You know that you are lost.

It was the same all the time when discussing with you! You either get personal when you feel pressured, calling me “egghead”, a liar and similar. Or you make gross generalizations of zero substance like you did in your last posting (saying that all my responses are questionable; and that without any basis for it; even more senseless because logical arguments can never be questionable). Or you just don’t touch arguments you don’t like. You behave like I never wrote them. Not a single line on them! Or you just say they are wrong or silly (for example my Microsoft comparison; you did not manage to say anything against it; you just said it is silly; does that present any substance? No, if you can’t present reason for it; and you didn’t present reason). That is all you contribute!

I really get weary of talking to you. I don’t know how old you are, but you behave like children behave in such situations. But the older you are, the more awkward it gets, because older people should know better!

I will tell you something joe. If you are not going to answer every single argument I presented in my last five postings at least, I am not going to discuss with you in this thread any further.

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Michael said...

Ahhhh yes. Being a good christian is something to strive after. And I'm sure posing as the Geverning Body of an organization... you know, lying... is quite christian behavior for anyone. It, in fact, is the defining attribute of someone I'd want to follow in becoming more like christ.

Well done "brother". I'd spend a bit more time in the mirror and a little less time on the soap box.