Years ago, when I first came in the "truth", one of the first things I learned was not to bring reproach upon Jehovah's name. This was a big teaching back then and we all knew to keep quiet about anything that was bad in the Kingdom Hall. You know the commercial that says "whatever happens in Vegas Stays In Vegas?" Well, that was how all Jehovah's Witnesses felt about the congregation. Whatever happened in the congregation stayed in the congregation. If a brother stole from you or slept with your wife or defiled your children, you were instructed to go to the elders and they try would sort it out. If they could not sort it out, you were told to go and "wait on Jehovah" to fix matters. Under no circumstances were you to report anything to the police or any one else in authority. We were even discouraged from telling other congregations members about anything bad that happened to us.
The point of all of this was to make Jehovah's Witnesses look good to people on the outside and make them believe that the congregation was free of problems and that everyone was happy and carefree and serving Jehovah with unity and peacefulness. Jehovah's Witnesses are the happiest people on earth.
Nothing could have been further from the truth. Brothers could come into the congregation and prey on little girls and boys with impunity. They were protected by the congregation because the brothers were taught not to report such things to the authorities because it would bring reproach on Jehovah. Jehovah would handle the matter in his own good time.
Would these pedophiles be disfellowshipped? No! According to Jehovah's Witnesses you must have two witnesses to the wrongdoing before you can be expelled from the congregation. So, you could not be expelled from the congregation and the congregation would not turn you over to the police. A Pedophile's Paradise if there ever was one!
You might feel that as a parent the protection of your child would be paramount. However, in a cult you mind is controlled so it is easy for you to believe that to bring reproach on Jehovah's name would cause you and your children to die at Armageddon and not to receive the promise of everlasting life that you so hoped for.
When the gross nature of the pedophile issue in the Watchtower organization was finally exposed, the Watchtower hurriedly began publishing articles in their magazines about the horrors of chuld abuse. Their Public Relations officers issued statements about how they handled child abuse. The Public Relations officers even made a video of how they were vigilant in taking care of pedophiles in the congregation. The Watchtower only did this after it was found out that they actually harbored and protected pedophiles. Hypocites.
This vigilance came too late for many children who grew up in the organizations. Because they wre taught that elders were princes, they obeyed the sick desires of some of these men without question. It is absolutely heartwrenching to think about.
Of course, some of you apologists will not believe any of this. But it is all true. It is horrific, sick and true. And this is the organization that calls itself Jehovah's channel of communication. Jehovah's name has been vilified by this organization and they will reap the consequences.
66 comments:
being in the organization is like being in paradise.
does not mean there is no problem?
The organization never say that, and that's the reason why you have exclusion.
Remember Satan, where did he come from?
he was an angel, does that mean there was no peace in Heaven when satan was there
go figure.
Heavens had problems now imagine the true organization on earth.
do you think all angels in heaven will stop serving God because some of the angels choose to do wrong?
go figure.
and you are misrepresenting the true about child abuse in the organization.
satan and demons why don't you criticise heavens because satan and his demons are from there.
"Brothers could come into the congregation and prey on little girls and boys with impunity. They were protected by the congregation because the brothers were taught not to report such things to the authorities because it would bring reproach on Jehovah. Jehovah would handle the matter in his own good time."
That is very incorrect.
No one does wrong with impunity.
The congregation does not protect anyone.
Yes, reporting things to the authorities and then the press does bring reproach on Jehovah and that is bad and should not be done.
The press just wants dirty laundry and can not be trusted to get their story straight.
"Would these pedophiles be disfellowshipped? No! According to Jehovah's Witnesses you must have two witnesses to the wrongdoing before you can be expelled from the congregation."
You got that wrong. There has to be two witnesses to agree. There as always two witnesses to everything. The accused and accuser. If they do not agree, whom does one believe?
Well, what else is to be done?
"You might feel that as a parent the protection of your child would be paramount."
Where are and were parents doing all of these situations? The problem is not and has not been with the congregation, the problem is with parents not doing their job. It is not the elders' responsibility, it is the parents'.
Why don't they get the witnesses to agree? Why can't parents do right?
"Of course, some of you apologists will not believe any of this."
It is not what we believe or don't believe that matters. It is that you are blaming the wrong people. You are just jumping on the silentlambs bandwagon.. You are not thinking for yourself. (Isn't it interesting that the ones who promote independent thinking do not think for themselves?)
Blame the parents.
" But it is all true. It is horrific, sick and true."
And you are making yourself part of the problem and not the solution. You, like the farce of Silent lambs is that you complain after the fact because it is something that you can use against JWs, but you both don't do anything or care about prevention, i.e. putting blame where it belongs, with parents.
" And this is the organization that calls itself Jehovah's channel of communication. Jehovah's name has been vilified by this organization and they will reap the consequences."
Jehovah's name was tarnished only by you and Bill Bowen and Barbara Anderson.
You are an embarrassment Ronde to humanity. Let me tell you something. Parents can only do so much. This organization touts itself as a clean organization, albeit imperfect. Children are vulnerable (they don’t think like adults nor do they have the experience of adults – that is why they are called “children”) - you also failed to recognize that in one of your previous silly posts.
The question really is ‘why was the WTS not trying to “prevent” these occurrences when the leaders knew who the perverts were’. The parents in general where never privy to the names of these perverted members “BECAUSE” the WTS told the elders to keep this information top secret.
Do you see the problem with keeping the names of pedophiles secret??? The WTS was afraid of lawsuits and the press. Yes, they were more concerned with these things than the safety of children – thus the post by GBL and his excellent summary of how this happened. (If you read this correctly, you would see that it was the WTS that set this up to happen by their irresponsible handling of this matter.)
Your response shows how incredibly bias you are and especially how insensitive you are to the plight of children who have been abused by members and leaders (elders/M.S.) in this organization. It’s been said that people like yourself end up abusing them all over again for your stupidity and lack of caring.
One day (and it might takes decades for you) you will be terribly embarrassed by your assessments in this blog. I dare you to print this one out and put it in a time capsule to be opened by you when you are 50. You’ll shake your head at your ignorance and insensitivity.
Lastly (although I could go on and destroy every statement you made), according to your defense, (JW’s and non-JW’s) parents are to blame anytime anything bad happens to their children. It’s never anyone else’s responsibility, right? Parents can’t be with children every minute of the day and no amount of teaching can help when someone like an elder GROOMS the child – you see, more often than not, the predator wins the confidence of the child and that can go on for months/years even.
You are so wrong and uneducated on this subject matter. Let me also remind the readers that Ronde said that there are “no pedophiles in JW’s organization”. Now he’s saying that if there are it’s the parents fault. Yikes! Ronde, don’t even bother to respond to my blog – whatever you say now will further embarrass you and JW’s at large, believe me.
Finally, I need to correct you on one statement which is definitely wrong. Jehovah’s name is not tarnished. However JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES and its leader’s (the Governing Body) is tarnished and they are the ones who own the majority of blame for making such a safe haven for pedophiles to roam. (Further Ronde, you tried to simplify this complex problem by simply blaming the parents. Haven’t you ever heard the expression, ‘there’s plenty of blame to go around’. Have you ever noticed how the WTS takes none of the blame, even when they own the bulk of the problem??? Wake up!)
p.s. Take out your "Keep on the Watch!" brochure and read page 3, under THE RELIGOUS SCENE. See where it says: "Priests sexually exploit young people; church cover-up."
When you read that, who do you blame? …the Catholic parents? Of course not! Well then, what's the difference if it's a priest or an elder? {None}
This brochure offer was halted in January 2008 by the GB. Do you know why? No doubt, because of this paragraph. The WTS didn't want the publishers to catch flack at the door, because if they did, they might start to ask questions (most JW’s have no idea what this pedophilia issue is all about and it’s a huge issue!). Of course after some time, they offered it again (fairly recently), didn’t they? What would you call these people? “Hypocrites” comes to my mind and I’m sure many who are reading this blog will agree.
For all readers. Have you ever noticed that it's the members that try to defend the GB and not they themselves. Why don't they defend themselves on this web-blog site? Why?
Before you make some sarcastic remark Nathan, like ‘You finally got it right by blogging under a subject that matches my comments’, I honestly wasn’t going to write anything because I felt I hit many main points previously, albeit under different topic headings.
It was your fellow brother’s incredibly arrogant, bias, and insensitive comments that demanded that I chime in with what I have learned on this ugly matter of JWs – keep in mind that the average JW’s is not to blame, it’s the leaders. However, if any of JWs tries to minimize or cover this up, then they own part of the blame and like Ronde, deserve to be corrected as I did in my post.
www.silentlambs.org contains the details of this story (if you have the courage - and stomach - to read the content in its entirety).
FYI: I didn’t accept what I read at first, nor did I really understand the multi-faceted problems that are articulated on this web-site.
So, I started to read and visit the site often to continue to read until I finally understood what the issues were. I couldn’t have reached this understanding if I just read a few sentences or paragraphs.
Boy, talk about courage, Bill Bowen is an example of true courage and caring for bringing this problem to the attention of everyone, after his attempts at changing policy failed with the Governing Body.
You see, he tried to resolve it internally, but was faced with arrogant men who believed it was only them who had the knowledge to resolve this correctly. Like the expression goes: Power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Thank you to the author of this page.
I am one of those children that was abused and it was swept under the WT rug.
There was even two witnesses to my case, still wasn't enough to DF this guy! He got a slap on the wrist and that was it! Private reproof. I have found out that that's more than ALOT of people get. I guess I should feel fortunate, eh?
I find comfort in Jehovah and peace through him. I will never trust any man again, shame on me the first go around.
I DO NOT blame my parents! How would they have known???? We are taught to love our brothers and sisters, and we're in 'paradise' after all. If you can't trust those in your congregation to look out for each other, well then, it's certainly not 'paradise' now is it?
It's a cave of robbers...robbing the youth of their innocence.
Not to mention that he was "A fine outstanding quality Brother" who made the Elder's smile on his potential.
It's been a very very hard road, MANY bumps along the way.
And, of course I have no proof other than what actually happened and my word...but, We were told not to report it to the police because it would bring reproach upon Jehovah's name and I was told that if I so much as peeped about it to anyone, I would be disfellowshipped immediately.
Imagine that, he raped two girls and got PRIVATE reproof, but if I talked about it to gain encouragement or comfort from ANYONE, I would be considered spiritually dead..."Go figure".
Then later when my will was broken, those same Elders told me that I would have to "wait on Jehovah".
These are catch phrases...they are real.
I AM waiting on Jehovah after all, they were right.
And the good part about it is, that my faith and love for Jehovah has grown more now, now that I've stopped following the commandments of men and started following only Jehovah's.
- require 2 witnesses
- do not inform his new congregation about this accusation, thus allowing the brother to continually re-offend and then move congregation
How do I know this? I was an elder, I've read all of the letters from the WTS on this matter, and it was their policy on handling this serious matter that prompted me to resign my position.
Child molestation isn't a sin like drunkenness or fornication.
It is a heinous crime and should be treated as such.
Hey joepublish. Please look up the difference between the words sarcastic and ironic. The statement you put in my mouth would be ironic, not sarcastic. But never mind.
Well in fact there was absolutely no demand to talk about this issue in every single thread here. It was just used by you, because you didn't have counter arguments that were valid on several matters.
And even here, you fail to understand points made or you refuse to accept them as they are. Let me giv you an example: Of course it is the fault of the parents! Which fault? If they know that their child was abused by someone, but they decide not to inform the police it is their own fault. And that is the point! It never was the question if it is the fault of the parents if their child is abused. But it is their fault if they don't want to report it. They are free to report it to the police.
Further, I like the difference you all make between publishers and elders. Where is the difference. Do you really think that elders are better people in general? That is real crap. An elder can as easiy as a publisher commit a serious sin. They are all imperfect on the same level. Think of Satan. He was in a very high position but he was the first individual that sinned against God.
"Do you really think that elders are better people in general?"
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Jehovah's Witnesses are taught that elders are appointed to their position by holy spirit. Elders are "Princes of the earth." If we commit sin we are to report it to the elders. Elders are invited to a special school set up just for them. Elders can visit many Kingdom Halls to give talks. Elders are the stars mention in the book of Revelation. The elders are Glorious Ones and Mighty Men. In the face of all these adjectives is it any wonder that Jehovah's Witnesses believe that elders are special people, in a special class all to themselves? Would it be so hard for a person who was so defined in 5 meetings a week to prey unpon an innocent child?
This is the absolute truth about how the cong. handles the situation. ABSOLUTE TRUTH.
The victims are not to talk about it, they are to "wait on Jehovah".
We had an active offender in our cong.. Apparently the parents of the victim knew but due to the "gag order" from the elders they could not talk. We were unable to protect our child. My son was one of the victims, he would go to their house to play and unknown to anyone at the time , the "funny uncle" (who was living there) was abusing his nephews. My son and others also became victim. That was the beginning of the victims rebellious behaviour. My son and another victim tried to commit suicide after long term drug use. Others just went away. Of course this rebellion is handled by the judicial committee and these kids are treated as if they are hardened criminals. Usually disfellowshiped.
The young people leave in droves and they wonder why. There is no compassion, no love, and no justice within the congregations. Just "shut up and do as I say".
frank and ronde, you are both literally in the dark. your attitudes are representative of most within the congs., in denial. The saddest and scariest thing is how insensitive you are. In other words, you have lost your God given senses or maybe desensitized by the phrase always used when things go wrong "wait on Jehovah"?
Oh, when someones child falls victim to abuse within the cong. and they have a breakdown(acting out, with drugs, suicide, etc...)I will warn you...DO NOT expect anyone to ask how you are handling it or bring you dinner while you spend days and nights in the hospital hoping for recovery. Instead you will be ignored regarding this matter, because you are trying to be there for your child and he has been disfellowshipped. EYE OPENER 101.
Off subject: did you know that the term "disfellowshipped" is not in the dictionary? It is a term used only in your house of god, the congregation of JW.
P.S. My grown children are doing well, we are a well RE-adjusted family after the watchtower life.
Joepub:
"www.silentlambs.org contains the details of this story (if you have the courage - and stomach - to read the content in its entirety)."
After the fact
After the fact
After the fact
silentlambs does nothing to prevent anything.
Informing the congregation does not prevent anything. What efforts of ones like him does is to remove love and makes people strangers. Nobody wants to help children anymore because they are afraid of what they can say.
But why is everyone fighting on this, the goal is to protect children. The difference is that we do it God's way. Opposers do not. They just want to attack JWs. They are not interested in protecting children or they will be working with us, not against us.
Anon said"I am one of those children that was abused and it was swept under the WT rug.
There was even two witnesses to my case, still wasn't enough to DF this guy! He got a slap on the wrist and that was it! Private reproof."
Why is there so much revenge attitude on things? Why not try to help the person?
"I DO NOT blame my parents! How would they have known???? We are taught to love our brothers and sisters, and we're in 'paradise' after all. If you can't trust those in your congregation to look out for each other, well then, it's certainly not 'paradise' now is it?"
Yeah, but why were you alone with another?
When people do things Jehovah's Way, i.e. what the teachings of the Bible and congregation are, these problems don't happen.
GBLetters said
"Jehovah's Witnesses are taught that elders are appointed to their position by holy spirit."
The Bible says that. Read Acts 20:28
Ever read it?
Joepub said:
"wait on Jehovah"."
Wait for what?
The kingdom when no pain will brought to mind or heart.
GBLetters said
"Would it be so hard for a person who was so defined in 5 meetings a week to prey unpon an innocent child? "
And it makes me wonder why, if elders do something wrong to a child, the child does not shout, "you are an elder you don't do that"
Like I said, parents have neglected to train their children.
Interesting how none of the JW apologists choose to handle these points:
-------------------------------
p.s. Take out your "Keep on the Watch!" brochure and read page 3, under THE RELIGOUS SCENE. See where it says: "Priests sexually exploit young people; church cover-up."
When you read that, who do you blame? …the Catholic parents? Of course not! Well then, what's the difference if it's a priest or an elder? {None}
This brochure offer was halted in January 2008 by the GB. Do you know why? No doubt, because of this paragraph. The WTS didn't want the publishers to catch flack at the door, because if they did, they might start to ask questions (most JW’s have no idea what this pedophilia issue is all about and it’s a huge issue!). Of course after some time, they offered it again (fairly recently), didn’t they? What would you call these people? “Hypocrites” comes to my mind and I’m sure many who are reading this blog will agree.
For all readers. Have you ever noticed that it's the members that try to defend the GB and not they themselves. Why don't they defend themselves on this web-blog site? Why?
--------------------------------
Nathan (and Ronde), do you see in this brochure where the parents were blamed for not reporting this? {No} That wasn't the point. The point is that priest abused children and the church covered it up!
This brochure points that out directly while all the time the Watchtower (leaders) were covering up their own pedophile scandal!
Your shallow defenses don't work because we KNOW what happened and you are determined to stay in the dark about the details - ah, yes, the devil is in the details.
Why do you do that? So, that you can defend your religion without conscience. But, once you enlighten yourself to ALL THE DETAILS, you can't ignore your conscience - I would hope not.
Sidebar: Parents were instructed by elders not to discuss this and to not report this to the police. The GBL blog was right on the mark.
Joepub said:
"Interesting how none of the JW apologists choose to handle these points:"
I handle them just fine.
"p.s. Take out your "Keep on the Watch!" brochure and read page 3, under THE RELIGOUS SCENE. See where it says: "Priests sexually exploit young people; church cover-up."
"When you read that, who do you blame? …the Catholic parents?"
I don't agree with criticizing the Catholic church for what happened. I criticize the parents for allowing their children to be with the priests. Nowhere in the Catholic church teachings do they say that it is acceptable to abuse children. The same in Witness teachings.
" Of course not! Well then, what's the difference if it's a priest or an elder?"
The children should be taught to not think it is acceptable for anyone to do anything bad to them.
"This brochure offer was halted in January 2008 by the GB. Do you know why? No doubt, because of this paragraph."
You are incorrect.
" The WTS didn't want the publishers to catch flack at the door,"
I don't catch flack for anyone for anything.
The only fault lies with the parents for not training their children to do something decisive when someone does something wrong when and even before it happens.
You all are about what is done afterwards. That is too late.
I mean, parents teach their children to refuse birthday treats and Christmas stuff but when someone does something sexually wrong to them they don't know what to do?? Come one. It is not the WTS or elders job to teach them, it is the parents.
I am just amazed and horrified by the callousness, the lack of sensitivity and understanding of child abuse coming from the JWs here.
People are placed in positions of trust. They are supposedly appointed by the Holy Spirit. They are looked to to give spiritual and moral guidance. 'Be obedient to those taking the lead among you', the Scripture states.
JWs are taught that to question the elders, to make waves of any sort, even to MURMUR against them destroys the unity in the Congregation and could result in the Congregation losing the Spirit.
It is an atmosphere of fear and even though people could go to the police, when you are told that you will bring reproach on Jehovah and the Congregation, which is a subtle way of saying you are jeopardising your chances of everlasting life, it is a very very powerful deterrent to taking that action. In that sense, they are not 'free to go to the police.' Your lack of understanding staggers me.
In virtually every case of child abuse I have read about, there have never been any suggestions that it was the parents fault. The cases that the Watchtower brings out from time to time to indict other religions always blame the clergy, those in a position of authority and trust, never the parents, as Joe said.
As a JW, I was taught, from the Bible, and the pages of the Society's literature, that most things are black and white, and that helps to create a very judgmental attitude towards others. I have realized as I have grown older, that virtually nothing is black and white, there are so many shades of gray.
Perhaps it is no surprise that the Jehovah's Witnesses posting here display a lack of understanding, because they are just parroting words and phrases that come from a Society that worships a God who has no love and no empathy.
They are using these words to condemn people whose lives have been damaged by trusting those who they were taught were appointed by the creator of the Universe to look after them and take care of their spiritual interests.
Thanks for your post Steve, boy it included gems of wisdom in it. You explained things in the organization very well!
What Ronde and Nathan refuse to acknowledge is that the "court records" reveal a startling and horrific story of abuse, mis-handling and outright cover-up.
What struck me is how hard the WTS tried to withhold information... UNTIL the court ordered them to open their records. One would have to ask the question, why would the WTS refuse to open their records IF they had nothing to hide. But, oh boy, did they have something to hide!
You can see the smokescreen they try to throw up when they point the finger at another religon's coverup of pedophilia. That alone sends a message to its members that we don't have this problem (or else it would be hypocritical to say so and we know the JW's organization would never mislead us. Right!)
Not only did they coverup the pedophilia problems, their policies contributed to the problem.
They could have "prevented" many cases of abuse if they modified the policies, when recommeded to do such by Bill Bowen and others.
So, the WTS was in "the best" position, not the unknowing (kept in the dark) parent, to prevent these abuses.
No matter what angle I have seen from the apologists on this blog, I haven't seen anything that carries any weight concerning these preventable abuses.
And, yes, these apologists scare me to death with their careless and insensitive comments. I'm sure many householders reading these blogs will take note of that!
Steve:
The only callousness is from you.
You are callous to God's righteous standards.
"People are placed in positions of trust. They are supposedly appointed by the Holy Spirit. They are looked to to give spiritual and moral guidance. 'Be obedient to those taking the lead among you', the Scripture states."
So if an appointed person does something bad to another what is one supposed to do? Be obedient to that one? NO!!!. Be obedient to Jehovah. Our subjection to them is relative. Jehovah said to scream and yell when someone does something bad to us. So do it rather than allowing it to happen and complain about everyone afterwards.
"JWs are taught that to question the elders, to make waves of any sort, even to MURMUR against them destroys the unity in the Congregation and could result in the Congregation losing the Spirit."
But of that one does bad, as Eli's sons did, one is to do something about it right away.
"It is an atmosphere of fear and even though people could go to the police, when you are told that you will bring reproach on Jehovah and the Congregation, which is a subtle way of saying you are jeopardising your chances of everlasting life, it is a very very powerful deterrent to taking that action. In that sense, they are not 'free to go to the police.' Your lack of understanding staggers me."
What alternative is there? But you are assuming that the police are good alternative. I don't make that assumption because they are not.
"In virtually every case of child abuse I have read about, there have never been any suggestions that it was the parents fault. "
Well, it is time to start blaming the parents. There is absolutely no reason that children should be around the priests. There is no reason for alterboys. Parents should have said that much.
"As a JW, I was taught, from the Bible, and the pages of the Society's literature, that most things are black and white, and that helps to create a very judgmental attitude towards others"
If that is the case, then why does abuse occur if children are taught that those actions are black. Oh, the parents are not teaching them that.
Ronde, as I said, your lack of understanding staggers me and with your last post, I rest my case.
ronde has had his mind wharped by the WATCHTOWER. I have found that it is best to just ignore what he says. He is an excellent example of a little knowledge being a dangerous thing.
Steve,
So you advocate that the parents should not train their children in what to do when there are problems?
And you put all responsiblity on the elders?
That is irresponsible of you and it is good that you are not an elder anymore. Thus this has cleansed the congregation just by removing you.
And GBLetters:
"ronde has had his mind wharped by the WATCHTOWER."
I told you that I am not influenced by the Watchtower, like you are. You are the worshipper of it.
'So you advocate that the parents should not train their children in what to do when there are problems?
And you put all responsiblity on the elders?'
That is irresponsible of you and it is good that you are not an elder anymore. Thus this has cleansed the congregation just by removing you.
Wow! That's all I have to say.
You are so right Steve and GBL.
But, in one way, it reveals exactly WHY the problem existed and exactly WHY it was mis-handled. There were grown-ups (and I'm not counting Ronde as one) who were in a position of authority who share young Ronde's stance and posture concerning this matter. One of the elders was caught (in a Youtube video exposing pedophilia in Austriala in JW’s organization) with a very similar attitude to Ronde.
Notice the blame never goes to the organizational leaders (who set policy for the elders - which btw is what Ronde has no knowledge of because he won't take the time to read all the documents on www.silentlambs.org).
Did anyone catch how Ronde moved away from blaming the child (in previous posts), to blaming the parent, back to blaming the child and parent! Oh my goodness... I would trust that JW apologist who understands these issues more in depth are cringing when they read his responses, they are so juvenile and immature).
Imagine trying to blame a 3 year old for not screaming after the predator won his/her trust (over months/years in some cases), and afterwards the abuser threatened that he would kill her/his parents if she/he said anything. Or, that Jehovah God would not like it if they told anyone especially since they participated (albeit unwillingly) in a disgusting sexual act, ‘Jehovah will kill you at Armageddon if you say anything’. (Use your imagination Ronde – you know, your mind - one can only wonder the twisted things that were told to these young ones.) And you want to blame them – SHAME ON YOU, you’re not even human.
Oh, but the child should have trusted in Jehovah and not listened to the threat of the abuser. ("That" by the way is "sarcasm" Nathan.)
As for "irony", JW's literature point out how other religions have “covered up” their pedophilia problem (Ronde agreed that this is wrong btw which is one good thing I’ll say about him). JW's, though, have also covered over their pedophilia problems!
That "irony" is cloaked in "Hypocrisy", with a capital H!
What the apologists are missing is that the WTS published a press release after the NBC dateline update report in Nov 2007, which was basically an admission of their mis-handling. Why else would they settle out of court? They knew the court now possessed all it needed to make a decision AGAINST JW’s.
The problem is that the GB has never apologized to “its members” nor was it ever going to bring this to the attention of the members. It took the worldly news (run by Satan himself, there's that "sarcasms" again) to inform members that pedophilia exists in JW's organization and that their policies in "preventing" child abuse is more than deficient – it’s broken and doesn’t work.
nathan,frank and ronde,
you are all literally in the dark. your attitudes are representative of most within the congs., in denial. The saddest and scariest thing is how insensitive you are. In other words, you have lost your God given senses or maybe you have been desensitized by the phrase always used when things go wrong..."wait on Jehovah"?
You three know very well that in the congregation everyone is groomed to trust one another, not judge, call each other brother and sister, etc...we are groomed to feel safe, we are desensitized to what our gut tells us about someone, that would not be brotherly to prejudge.
It can't be the fault of the parents for feeling safe within the congregation. I will tell you first hand all the watchtower information offered to train your children to resist a perpetrator does not help a child resist if they trust the one that is abusing them. Children tend to be obedient.
ronde, you claim the cong. does things gods way! Satan is a god and he likes this stuff.
nathan, parents put their trust in the elders of the congregation as their way of "trusting Jehovah's" way of handling matters. You also must be familiar with all the admonition to not turn your brother over to the worldly courts or law. A parent would be going against the direction of the cong. and would be disciplined for going against them.
frank, there is no misrepresentation here in what the GBL has posted.
ronde said
"I told you that I am not influenced by the Watchtower, like you are. You are the worshipper of it."
then you are NOT one of JW's as you claim.
It can be said that ignorance about child abuse is the one of the predator's best weapons and believe me, they use it to the full!
If you read the latest health/criminal journals on this disease/crime, you will be quite enlightened. I know I had misconceptions that were set straight. Your knowledge on this subject is only a click away on the Internet.
Kimmy Jo said
"ronde said
"I told you that I am not influenced by the Watchtower, like you are. You are the worshipper of it."
then you are NOT one of JW's as you claim."
I don't recall it ever taught that in the steps to serve Jehovah, one has to do that. Take in knowledge, repentance, conversion, dedication and baptism. Nothing about the Watchtower.
Joe pub muttered:
"Notice the blame never goes to the organizational leaders (who set policy for the elders "
You idiots do not get it, that the WTS is not to blame because it is not their policy that causes any abuse. Any such policy is only something that happens after the fact. Thus, policy or no, or a policy to your liking will not have prevented or solved anything, because it is after the fact.
Whereas my way does solve the problem. My way is to educate the children to where they stop things from happening in the first place and there is no need for any policy of anyone of how to handle things.
You stated:"Imagine trying to blame a 3 year old for not screaming after the predator won his/her trust (over months/years in some cases), and afterwards the abuser threatened that he would kill her/his parents if she/he said anything."
It is not about blame. When a child is taught right from wrong, and a trusted person does wrong, the child should trust Jehovah first and know that the thing is wrong.
"that Jehovah God would not like it if they told anyone especially since they participated (albeit unwillingly) in a disgusting sexual act,"
And teaching the children right from wrong prevents such things.
"WTS published a press release after the NBC dateline update report in Nov 2007, which was basically an admission of their mis-handling."
How is it that the WTS is involved anyway? They did not do anything to cause anything.
"The problem is that the GB has never apologized to “its members” nor was it ever going to bring this to the attention of the members."
Of course because they have no members and it is not our business.
"their policies in "preventing" child abuse is more than deficient – it’s broken and doesn’t work."
You are wrong here. It is silent lambs that does not prevent anything. You don't prevent anything because you don't believe in teaching children. You just want to blame.
Kimmy Jo said
"you are all literally in the dark. your attitudes are representative of most within the congs., in denial. The saddest and scariest thing is how insensitive you are. In other words, you have lost your God given senses or maybe you have been desensitized by the phrase always used when things go wrong..."wait on Jehovah"?"
So when are you going to get so anything of substance? All you do is call names.
"You three know very well that in the congregation everyone is groomed to trust one another, not judge, call each other brother and sister, etc...we are groomed to feel safe, we are desensitized to what our gut tells us about someone, that would not be brotherly to prejudge."
And still, when someone abuses someone else, that breaks that trust. And still, that gives no reason or excuse for people having inappropriate associations like the priests and the altarboys. That is why I blame the parents and not the church. If the parents knew the Bible, they would know that there are no altarboys.
"It can't be the fault of the parents for feeling safe within the congregation. I will tell you first hand all the watchtower information offered to train your children to resist a perpetrator does not help a child resist if they trust the one that is abusing them. Children tend to be obedient."
Then why do they protest when others offer birthday treats, or say the pledge? Children are taught to obey the teacher. When the teachers tell them something against God's word, they protest. Well, they can and should protest against abuse too. What is worse, a piece of cake, a flag or abuse?
"You also must be familiar with all the admonition to not turn your brother over to the worldly courts or law. A parent would be going against the direction of the cong. and would be disciplined for going against them."
No one would be disciplined if the parents did their jobs and supervised their children properly.
And that is not the elders' business if they report someone anyway.
Joepub muttered:
"It can be said that ignorance about child abuse is the one of the predator's best weapons and believe me, they use it to the full!"
Then why do you keep children ignorant about the subject of abuse? You do when you keep focusing on the Watchtower and blaming them rather than training children.
ronde, ronde oh ronde,
roundy,roundy and roundy we go...
it can be said that YOU are an expert on everything and know nothing...
a heart of gravel, stomach of stone and a brain amush...
a roundy a ronde we go.
P.S. I knew I could get you to smile there ronde dear....NOW, GO BRUSH YOUR TEETH.
Goodness Kimmy Jo, that response to Ronde was so good - I can't contain my laughter... thanks, I needed that. This guy is a lunatic. If I say yes, he says no, I say big, he says small - it's so easy to see his ridiculous baseless reasoning’s.
He doesn't understand the true meaning of dialogue - an exchange or communication of thoughts that follow logic and reason. He ignores and sidesteps any valid thoughts. But, then again, that’s all he is trying to accomplish, argue and come out winning no matter how ‘dirty he fights’; - sort of speak.
Can you imagine an impartial person reading his responses??? Boy, if I was studying with JW’s and read his off-color remarks, I would be stumbled.
Joe pub mumbled:
"This guy is a lunatic. If I say yes, he says no, I say big, he says small - it's so easy to see his ridiculous baseless reasoning’s."
That is because you are wrong.
"He doesn't understand the true meaning of dialogue"
Yeah I do. It is speaking in person or on phone, not posting on blogs.
You (Ronde) are getting crazier by the minute... do you want me to call the men in white coats? Honestly, I fear for your mental stability. Are you okay?
Hey kimmy jo, I am literally in the dark? Well that would not influence my brain. I would turn on some lamp and would be fine.
If my attitude is anything, then it is not typical within most congregations. People who read my postings can see that easily. Also I don’t deny anything. I was the first to admit that child abuse happens among JWs. I only presented arguments that showed that this is not inherent for the religion. Nothing more, nothing less.
I also did never say that abused persons must wait on Jehovah. I always said that they are free to turn to the police, relatives friends, therapists etc. I always said, that there is nothing wrong with it. In this regard let me tell you that you did not understand the Bible. Yes it is true, that Christians should not hand over their brothers to worldly courts. But you missed one important thing. We can apply Matthew 18:15-17. If I was abused by someone and then I told him that he should go and tell it to the elders and the police and he doesn’t listen to me and if he will remain in his sins without admitting them, I can treat him as one of the nations. So I can definitely hand him over to a worldly court!
True, people in the congregation should trust on another. But this is no problem. Why should it be? Do you suspect everyone in your company to be a bad guy? Certainly not. The same is true within a congregation. Just because it would not make any sense to think the worst of everybody. Nevertheless, parents won’t give their children to everyone in the congregation. This is also a matter of sympathy the ability to care for a child etc. Of course one can make a mistake and trust the wrong person, but the same can happen in the world. You can trust the wrong Nanny. But it is simply not true that JWs give their children blindly to anyone.
Of course, children tend to be obedient, but what point does that make? In this case you better stop hanging around with relatives! Most cases of child abuse happen within the “bigger family circle”, meaning through relatives whom the children and parents trust. This is a fact but does not say anything about JWs in general.
@ sidebar of joepublish: “Parents were instructed by elders not to discuss this and to not report this to the police.” Statement without substance. It’s just the same as if I say, that parents were instructed by some elders to inform the police. That does not make any point that would be valid for general discussion, if child abuse is inherent for the religion of JWs.
nathan said,
"But you missed one important thing. We can apply Matthew 18:15-17. If I was abused by someone and then I told him that he should go and tell it to the elders and the police and he doesn’t listen to me and if he will remain in his sins without admitting them, I can treat him as one of the nations. So I can definitely hand him over to a worldly court!"
I answer,
That does not work with a child.
ronde says,
"The only fault lies with the parents for not training their children to do something decisive when someone does something wrong when and even before it happens."
I answer,
You keep saying it is the parents fault for not training their kids. Do you suggest we tell them in gory detail all the devious sexual things someone may try do to them, so they can become scared shit less to be a child in a normal way?
You would be stealing their innocence in a differant way and they still would not be protected.
You don't have kids do you?
Ronde, let me give you a scenario and you tell me what should be done different. This is a real life scenario, btw.. nothing make believe here. Only the names have been changed.
Seven year old Susie has a best friend at the hall, Betty. Betty's dad is the presiding overseer of the congregation, much loved and respected by everyone.
Susie likes to spend the night at Betty's house and has done so several times.. after all, her parents know and trust Betty's parents. One night something bad happens. Betty's dad comes into the bedroom after they have gone to bed and touches Susie's "privates."
Susie knows he shouldn't do that and tells him "NO," in a very loud voice. He leaves the room.
The next day Susie tells her mom what happened, like she has been trained to do. Susie's mother is horrified and calls her husband at work. He comes home and they talk about it and decide to call another elder in the hall.
This elder says he will look into it. A few days go by.. little Susie has been having nightmares and doesn't want to go to the hall where she will have to see Betty's dad.
Finally Susie's parents get a phone call. The elder tells them that the "situation" has been handled and that they are not to speak to anyone about it.
A couple of months go by.. One day Susie's mom is talking to another sister in the hall who has a daughter Susie's age. She mentions that her daughter spent the night with Betty last weekend. Susie's mom is very upset. What should she do?? What if this other little girl is molested too? What if the other little girl doesn't know to say "no" and tell her mom?
Susie's mom can't take it. She tells the other sister what happened. A few days later Susie's mom is called before a committee of three elders. She admits that she told someone what happened. She is privately reproved.
A few more months go by and it happens again. Susie's mom finds out that a little girl in the hall spent the night with Betty. She knows she will get in trouble if she says anything, so she goes to an elder for help. He tells her that it is in Jehovah's hands and she shouldn't worry.
Some more time goes by and this other little girl starts to act differently. She is sad all the time. Her parents can't figure out why. Susie's mom has a talk with them. They talk to their daughter and find out that Betty's dad has abused her more than once!
A few days later Susie's mom is once again called before a committee of three. This time she is disfellowshiped.
Now, Ronde.. can you honestly tell me that this was the fault of neglectful parents? That the situation was handled correctly? That this is representative of God's love?
Was this woman supposed to keep silent while a child suffered? Did she deserve to be shunned?
It came out, eventually that Betty had been being abused by her loving daddy for years. He was eventually removed as an elder, but still attends the same hall.. a hall where no one is allowed to tell new ones what he has done.
I hope I kept this story simple enough for you.
FreeandHappy.
Let me give you a scenario.
You are the one accused of doing something wrong.
How would you like things handled?
Question open to everyone:
You are the one accused of something wrong.
What would you like to be done?
How would you like things to be handled?
What does Silentgoats suggest about this? Or do they only represent the prosecution side of things?
Don't you believe that the defendant has the right to a proper defense?
The question was, Was this the fault of neglectful parents?
Umm.. ok, I'm a child molesting pervert.. hmm.. what should be done to me?
How about I have the police called on me to be sure I never do that again?
How about every parent I come into contact with know ahead of time what I like to do to little girls?
(you know.. sexual offender registry)
Hiding my perversions only allows me to harm more little girls.. so lets all keep quite about it!!
Typical of you, Ronde... how about a serious reply? Why don't you answer MY questions?
Was this the child's fault? The parents fault? Should that mother have kept silent? Is it right to disfellowship her for protecting children?
Freeand happy;
"Umm.. ok, I'm a child molesting pervert.. hmm.. what should be done to me? "
I did not say that you are a child molesting pervert. I said what if you were accused of it. Whether you did or not is something only you, the accused and the accuser, knows.
"The question was, Was this the fault of neglectful parents? "
Yes, everything is the fault of neglectful parents.
"Susie knows he shouldn't do that and tells him "NO," in a very loud voice. He leaves the room."
It was so loud that Betty did not hear it when she was right there? The mother of Betty did not hear it or others in the house?
"The next day Susie tells her mom what happened, like she has been trained to do."
What happened to Betty and her mother? Why didn't she tell them right then and there?
The problem is that these stories have so many holes in them.
Why do you worry about Susie's mom when it should not get that far.
OMG!! What a complete cop out! You still haven't answered any of my questions!!
Tell you what, I do have an answer for you.. but you can't have it until you answer MY questions!
You obviously have zero experience with children.
As I pointed out, Betty was already being abused, so no, she didn't respond to what was happening to her friend.
Betty's mom was also aware of what was happening, which makes her just as culpable, IMO.
Susie was trained to tell her own parents, not others, as her parents know that not all adults are likely to have the right response. Some respond in a way that causes the child to feel more guilt, even thought hey did nothing wrong.. a concept you can't seem to grasp.
How is this Susies fault? Or her mothers?
Oh, and you are right.. it should never have gotten that far. This Elder should have been handed over to the police, for the criminal he is. Then Susie's mom would never have been in a position that led to her being Df'd.
I seem to have forgotten my own rule here.. never try to reason with the unreasonable, it does no one any good.
Hi Freeandhappy... thank you so much for spelling this out so clearly. Ronde is a maverick - not a true bonified JW's. He very progressive and loves to argue because he's counting his pioneer time. Can you believe it?
So, his pioneer time is more important than following any logic that he can't swallow - he's only interested in winning arguments.
You say white, he says black, you say high, he says low. He's an impossible and difficult person (and he's proud of it.)
Personally, I believe he is mentally unstable, along with a few other JW's apologists on this site.
But, getting back to your real life scenario - you hit the nail on the head in terms of explaining this to people who aren't aware of how WT policy set by the GB (and carried out by elders) contributed to this problem.
I always ask Ronde and his friends, have you ever noticed that the GB never visits these sites with the idea of responding?
Why would I ask this?
Well, "they" are in the position of knowledge and if they are so free from blame, why not join the discussion and enlighten us to what really happened? Explain to everyone your side of the story.
Nah, they hide behind their rank and file and leave it up to maverick-type JW's to do their dirty work on these web sites.
Then they ask these same people to distribute literature that demeans the Catholic church with its pedophile priests problem.
You'll never get people like Ronde to see your viewpoint. His mind is closed on this subject (along with his heart).
After reading everything he has posted about pedophilia, I know he hasn't got a clue. What he doesn't realizes is how many people he has hurt by continuing to blame the victim and the victims parents.
Nice religion that produces hard-headed, hard-hearted people like this.
Oh, one more thing. Ronde acts like this because he feels everyone on this site is an apostate and deserves to be ill-treated. You see, he can't wait for Jehovah to destroy them, but he's not going to wait. He's going to act with no sensitivity (and no rules) while on this site.
Of course, at the door, he'll appear as an angel.
Yes, the "two-sides" of JW's! The poor children who had to learn this the hard way.
Hey kimmy jo:
I said,
"But you missed one important thing. We can apply Matthew 18:15-17. If I was abused by someone and then I told him that he should go and tell it to the elders and the police and he doesn’t listen to me and if he will remain in his sins without admitting them, I can treat him as one of the nations. So I can definitely hand him over to a worldly court!"
You answered,
„That does not work with a child.“
I answer,
Well you didn’t think much about it, did you? Just substitute “I” with “my child” and it works just fine!
Joepub:
"Ronde is a maverick - not a true bonified JW's. He very progressive and loves to argue because he's counting his pioneer time. Can you believe it?"
You are an idiot.
Well, I am the one here watching Kid Rock and jammin.
But FYI, I don't believe in pioneering and I said that already.
Oh, BTW, I am still waiting for the phone call from you. What's keeping you?
Joepub muttered:
"You see, he can't wait for Jehovah to destroy them, but he's not going to wait. He's going to act with no sensitivity (and no rules) while on this site."
Well, yes, I look forward to Jehovah destroying you apostates. Wish I could help.
Until then, I will keep telling you all how wrong you are.
Joepub muttered unintelligibly,
"Until it changes... I wonder how many more times the "generation" explanation is going to change?"
The truth does not change and has not changed. Jehovah is God, Jesus is his son and apostates will be destroyed. What more is needed?
Ya, right, and the generation explanation (as well as a plethora of other wrong explanations, 1925, 1975, who the superior authorities are, etc. etc.) never changed either. Check out youtube author WTCOMMENTS - the best videos on Jehovah's Witnesses!
WHAT A STATE OF DENIAL YOU ARE IN.
(Ronde lives in DENIAL, IMCONFUSED, 00666 USA.)
Okay, are you ready Ronde?
I say "up" and you say (fill in the blank... it begins with "d").
Very good!
Joepub said
"WHAT A STATE OF DENIAL YOU ARE IN."
Denial is not a state, it is a river in Egypt.
Joe pub said:
"Ya, right, and the generation explanation (as well as a plethora of other wrong explanations, 1925, 1975, who the superior authorities are, etc. etc.) never changed either"
No, 1925 never changed. It was Rutherford's theory.
Nothing changed in 1975. It was, according to their chronology, the end of 6000 years of human history, nothing was predicted to happen then specifically.
The explanation of superior authorities have not changed. It has just be refined and narrowed.
Have you ever listened to Rutherford's explanation in context? I didn't think you did. You like the others, just think it is black and white, it is or isn't the governments. That is narrow.
When you actually learn what JWs believe you will understand matters.
Joepub said:
"Okay, are you ready Ronde?
I say "up" and you say (fill in the blank... it begins with "d")."
YOURS
nathan
you said,
"But you missed one important thing. We can apply Matthew 18:15-17. If I was abused by someone and then I told him that he should go and tell it to the elders and the police and he doesn’t listen to me and if he will remain in his sins without admitting them, I can treat him as one of the nations. So I can definitely hand him over to a worldly court!"
I said, "it doesn't work like that with a child."
you responded,
"Well you didn’t think much about it, did you? Just substitute “I” with “my child” and it works just fine!"
Now I will tell you,
it doesn't work like that in the congregation of Jw's. If you read some of the other comments you will maybe understand why it doesn't work that way.
Are you saying "it works just fine" because you have experienced this first hand OR are you assuming? To assume this is how it works and say so, is to call an experienced person a liar, and it is an insult and arrogant on your part.
I think that Haywood Patterson would have alot to say about this. Who is Haywood Patterson?
He was one of 8 black boys falsely accused of rape and the accuser completely fabricated her story and the boys were presumed guilty because of their race. Now it seems that people just presume ones guilty because of accusation and gender.
Prejudice is sad.
Kimmy jo
Now I will tell you,
It just works like that in the congregation of JWs. You were assuming that I was just assuming what I say, right? But you are wrong. I have experienced that (well second hand, because it was not my family but friends), so I know what I am talking about. So now, will you call me a liar now?
Kimmy Jo, I see now why JW's get themselves into so many problems (UN involvement, mishandling of pedophiles, ever-changing doctrines, ect.).
They lack humility, simple as that. They are so ingrained with thinking that their religion is "the truth", it affects them personally and they shamelessly will defend any of their faults.
Where's the lack of any type of admission of fault. Funny how JW's are so quick with the "excuse": 'We are imperfect like everyone else'.
But, how often do you hear an apology?
I do believe that these defenders have lost all their senses. They can no longer see the difference between right and wrong. Their hearts have become so hardened and their eyes can no longer see. They are not Christ like.
They are true, loyal solders of the Watchtower. Hard core defenders. Not that it matters to me really.
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