The Watchtower Society definitely teaches that in order to be saved, Jehovah's Witnesses must work for it. They MUST attend all of the Meetings.They MUST put in ENOUGH hours out in Field Service.They MUST not disobey the Watchtower Society.They MUST not have independent thoughts.They MUST not take whole Blood Transfusions.They MUST not be involved in politics, the list goes on and on.
Here is a confusing quote from a Watchtower:
The Watchtower, February 1, 1996 Issue:
Salvation is a free gift from God. It cannot be earned. Yet it does require effort on our part. If someone offered you a very valuable gift and you did not show enough appreciation to pick it up and take it with you, your lack of gratitude might prompt the giver to present it to someone else. Well, how valuable is the lifeblood of Jesus Christ? It is a free gift, but we must demonstrate deep appreciation for it.
So does the Watchtower say that salvation is free or not free? It seems that the Watchtower is speaking from both sides of their mouth. Salvation cannot be earned, but requires effort? It is as if someone said "Look, I have a free gift for you, and now to show your appreciation for the gift you have to clean my house, mow my lawn, and wash my car," would it in any real sense be a free gift?
What does the Bible say about salvation?
New King James Version:
Romans 3:21-28:
21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. 27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.
Romans 9:16: knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
Romans 9:21: I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain."
The ONLY way to get saved is by putting all your faith and trust and hope in Jesus Christ and His Sacrifice for your sins and His Resurrection.
The Wonderful Gospel is amazingly simple, yet profoundly supernatural:
Romans 10:8: But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.1 Corinthians 15:1-8: Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you--unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve. After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep. After that He was seen by James, then by all the apostles. Then last of all He was seen by me also, as by one born out of due time.
John 3:16: For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
While the scriptures tell us that "Faith Without Works Is Dead" it does not spell out those works for us. The Watchtower has determined that this scripture means that we should all preach from door to door recruiting new members for them.
However, "Works" could be any number of things. Feeding the poor, comforting the grieved, working with disadvantaged children, conducting clothing drives, and even living an exemplary life demonstrating our faith to all who know us.
36 comments:
So...what works would Jesus have us do?
The Bible is quite clear that it is the responsibility of Christians to preach the Gospel.
I go to "Toastmasters" to learn how to be a better speaker, communicator, etc.,as millions do worldwide. Jehovah's Witnesses have their version of "Toastmasters", where they try to learn how to effectively know and communicate the Truths of the Bible.
If you don't attend, then the message is fragmented, and poorly communicated. It requires a lot of work to be good at something.
What you are suggesting is tantamount to wanting a college degree without putting in the hard work and time, and dedication to get it.
Have "Faith" you will become competent as a minister of the Truth is not the same as working hard to become competent.
Speaking of faith ... obedience to the word of God, the principles and commandments of his appointed King, Jesus Christ is evidenced by works.
Faith that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and necessary for salvation is necessary, of course, but it is not enough. Remember, even Satan believes this....he has talked to Jesus and seen his works first hand ...but he does not obey.
Satan has faith these things are true, he has faith he will be destroyed by Jesus.
If a person has REAL faith, and not just some warm fuzzy feeling reminiscent of a liberal acid trip, it is ALWAYS, without exception, evidenced by works.
That is why the scripture says "Faith without works is dead".
It would be the same as if a United States Marine believed in the principles of democracy, the "american way", etc., but never attended training, exercises, combat drills, classes, real life missions, and the thousands of things a Marine is EXPECTED to do.
He has faith in The United States...in democracy...the mission of the Marines...his officers, etc..(Hmmmmm...scratch the officers bit....just like Jehovah's Witnesses leadership, Marine officers can be either competent, or fanny sucking clowns...).
To be a Christian is HARD WORK.
If you don't think so...you need to sit in a chair and have an IV drip of some narcotic, while watching continuous loop re-runs of "Winnie the Pooh"
I have very strong "issues" with Jehovah's Witnesses leadership, as most any Marine would have issues with many of his officers .... any of which he has the OBLIGATION to obey their orders...no matter how stupid, asinine, or silly....as long as they are not illegal.
Remember the image of Forest Gump scrubbing the floor with a toothbrush? That was a legal order from his superiors.
We understand that such things are legal orders from military officers, but it is hard to grasp the idea that Jesus as King has officers in his "army" that are in his chain of command, and just like in the Marines, sometimes those orders are stupid, and get people killed or seriously damaged forever as a result.
Welcome to REALITY One-Oh-One.
sorry.
Tom.Rook@Technik-SA.US
Don't be sorry Tom. Everyone is entitled to his/her opinion. Jesus said that we are saved by Grace, nothing else. However, manifesting our faith in Christ motivates us to do good works for other people. If we desire to preach to others then we should do so. We should not be obligated to do so. Jehovah;s Witnesses do not have a version of Toastmasters. What Jehovah's Witnesses have is a sales meeting where they are shown how to be better salesmen.
"The Bible is quite clear that it is the responsibility of Christians to preach the Gospel."
Sorry, no it is not. That is simply Watchtower interpretation.
Oh God! You had to drag Satan into this didn't you? He is always readily available in any Watchtower discussion, isn't he? Remember, that Satan is not obedient to the word of God, does not heed his commandments or respect the kingship of jesus.
I agree with you that obedience to the word of God, the principals and commandments of his Jesus Christ are evidence of our Faith.
That is enough. Your show of obedience is your works.
Faith is not hard work. As you go about your day exhibiting the godly principals by which you live you are showing your faith. You take soup to the sick, you help someone at work with a task they are unable to finish. You live your faith. Your faith should not dictated to you by 12 old men in Brooklyn.
I do not believe that Jesus would have people in his chain of command that were stupid or who gave damaging orders. I think it is blasphemous to say so. Jesus is The Way, and his way is always perfect.
You have made good points Tom, but unfortunately your reasoning is tainted by Watchtower propaganda.
You can't just quote a few sentances from a few magazines and think that it what JW's religion is.
But that is typical of you all.
Why don't you try and listen to the whole district convention or circuit assembly. Or several of them.
Then take all of that information and apply it rather than quotes from magazines.
Until you do that, you don't have credibility.
"Your faith should not dictated to you by 12 old men in Brooklyn."
Who are these 12 old men?
If you are referring to the governing body, there are 9.
Yes, like just about everything in JW's organization, things change. Organizational changes: pioneer hours, Public talk duration, Awake and Watchtower publication cycles changed, special Watchtower for the public and one for the congregation (we were always taught that this wasn't necessary), Book Study consolidated and renamed, WTS down-sizing, etc. and also the many Doctrinal changes: the generation understanding changed [yet] again, 1935 deadline for the selection of the anointed abolished (remember it was taught that the number of 144,000 was filled at that date of 1935, although there may be replacements and replacements only), blood fractions a conscience matter, etc. Regarding doctrine, whatever is accepted today as truth can literally change in the twinkling of an eye. btw: Governing Body Letters, that is so right on. A free gift is a free gift, no matter how much the reasoning in the Watchtower tries to twist that – as we know, it’s not the first time the Watchtower has made conflicting statements (they see nothing wrong in spinning the meaning of words). Making people work for the gift makes it not a gift [anymore]. No wonder Jesus said to come to him and he will lighten your load [not make it so heavy you can't function properly or think for yourself anymore]. And, if our faith should not be dictated by the GB, then maybe we should all just read the Bible and let Jehovah God speak to us through His word only, as opposed to the GB's publications (i.e. Watchtower).
Joepub said: "special Watchtower for the public and one for the congregation (we were always taught that this wasn't necessary),"
That is ignorant statement.
Of course it is necessary. What is the point of the public having articles to be discussed at the meetings if they are not going to be there. Thus they save alot of money by only printing those articles for those that are there.
"The generation understanding changed [yet] again,"
You finally got that right in that it is an understanding, not a change. What Jesus meant was not changed.
"1935 deadline for the selection of the anointed abolished (remember it was taught that the number of 144,000 was filled at that date of 1935"
No, that was never taught. NEVER.
What was taught was that the general selection ended in 1935, which is true. But specific selection continued since then.
"blood fractions a conscience matter"
That is always the case because God's law is ambiguous on such things and the rule of lenity applies when the law is ambiguous.
"egarding doctrine, whatever is accepted today as truth can literally change in the twinkling of an eye"
No, doctrines have not changed.
"A free gift is a free gift, no matter how much the reasoning in the Watchtower tries to twist that"
As I stated, why are people basing matters on quotes from selected Watchtowers as if JWs base their beliefs on them?
JWs believe that life and the kingdom is a gift from God. Our preaching is not about that, it is a fulfillment of a command.
And you need to understand that the waters of life are a gift but the surviving of armageddon is a totally different matter.
"if our faith should not be dictated by the GB, then maybe we should all just read the Bible and let Jehovah God speak to us through His word only, as opposed to the GB's publications (i.e. Watchtower)."
That is what happens. The GB just oversees the congregation of JWs.
The GB does not oversee me as an individual. People like GBletters do not understand that.
You need to get a clue as to the beliefs of JWS.
Oh, I have a clue and from reading your responses I now know that you don't. You need to do some more research in your own publications, but then again, you say you're not tied to them. You are one strange JW. New convert? Young in age? For instance, during the 80's it was strongly stated that we should not hold back from placing the Watchtower (with its meat) to householders reasoning that they will never understand this stuff. Now [decades later], they've decided that the householder needs a lighter Watchtower designated for the field ministry. One could ask, why wasn't this done earlier when the rank and file witnesses were questioning the value of placing Watchtowers with study articles??? Yes, the rank and file must never think for themselves, or question things. They are told to listen to the faithful and discreet class (which is only the 9-men GB btw). Are you hearing something different at the assembly and conventions???
I believe that ronde has not been a Jehovah's Witness very long. It is evident by his comments that he does not know what he is talking about. ronde is one of those who will never do personal research because he believes that he has the truth and that all the Watchtower publications contain the truth. He just parrots whatever he has heard at the meetings and what he has been told at the conventions. Actually for people like ronde, the Watchtower organization is the best place for them. Some people feel secure when someone else is telling them what to believe and what to do.
It is ALL about your field service hours.
JoePublish said...
Yes, like just about everything in JW's organization, things change.
--------------------
What's of great interest to me is the nature and patern of the changes.
The org has typically been on the extreme side of required religious activity: commitment to meetings, conventions, hours of service, DFing, blood, etc..
According to a sociological model of religious development, a sect such as the org can be expected to become more liberal in its views and practices in order to broaden its appeal and continue member growth and financial solvency.
Faced with the pressure of failed GT predictions and economical reality, the 'new light' or 'understanding', not 'change' as ronde has been so helpful to point out, follows this model quite closely and conveniently. It would be kind of fun to start a pool to see when it becomes a conscience matter to celebrate birthdays, christmas, and eventually interact with formerly DFed individuals.
This is the path that religions have followed for melliniums: change with society or die. Hard core JWs will believe it is god, but it is something real and much more powerful: the power of social change.
Jimmy Kimmel said:"It is ALL about your field service hours."
Life is a gift from God. Field service and other things are a means of showing appreciation for that gift.
Yes Ronde, keep trying to convince us that JWs are something other than we think.
We have been there, wore the T shirt, got the mug. I have been an elder, I know what goes on in Congregations, I know the mindset, I know the problems and the concerns.
The Jehovah's Witness you describe is you and you alone. If you think they are all like you, it's a fantasy in your head.
They ARE obsessed with hours. They hand out a tract to start their hours if the territory is any distance away. Older ones can count hours in 15 minute increments! What is all that about??
Spirituality is assessed by what you do in field service.
I had to be getting at least 10 hours in service each month to be recommended as a Ministerial Servant. Pioneers are especially spiritual... If elders are pioneers they must be so much more spiritual than the others and so get used more on circuit assemblies. It goes on.
It has NOTHING to do with spirituality. Its all hard statistics....
Shepherding was always brought up as part of Circuit needs. There was never enough being done. Why? Because you didnt have to write it down on a report slip. And yet shepherding is as important as field service. No point in welcoming people in the front door when thousands were falling out the back.
There are lies, damned lies and statistics. They can be made to say whatever you want. If there's an increase...evidence of Jehovah's blessing. If there's a slowdown... evidence of sifting and testing.
You cant quantify acts of love, kindness, good shepherding and yet all these virtuous things get squeezed out because of the obsession with hours and the fact that the field service is paramount.
It is a crying shame because I know most brothers intentions are good... they are just warped by the Organization, yes the Organization they are slaves to.
ronde, you said
"Life is a gift from God. Field service and other things are a means of showing appreciation for that gift."
You are correct, life is a gift from God and life is this very moment since the next is not promised. Showing appreciation for that gift is to notice the many things God created for our enjoyment and pleasure. The things he created are not man made. God gave us our life and as we live it we develop relationships with all his creation and see beyond the surface and his deep love for us is felt. His creation is for us to care for and nurture, whether it be a pet, a child, a flower, what ever it is, it is to be discovered and appreciated. I could go on and on.
You are sorely missing the point of showing appreciation for your God given life. NO PLACE in the scripture does it imply that these "things" you do impress God or reflect any sort of appreciation. Field service? Come on now, come to your senses. That is like a rat in a running wheel, you are kept so busy doing these "things" you are missing your "life". What is your reward?
Thank you Steve (x-elder) for that blog. It should open some eyes.
I love that you spoke from personal experience because it contained your first-hand observation of how this organization works.
It is so lacking in true love and works. Someone would just as soon fulfill their pioneer hours before helping an aged witness parent.
There is something very wrong with that.
As you mentioned (and stated in the book Captives of a Concept), many JW's are very nice people. They are just misled.
The Internet is going to help with that though and people like Governing Body Letters help out as well.
by the way I am not frank
To answer you just read
Romans 10:
13 For “everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved.” 14 However, how will they call on him in whom they have not put faith? How, in turn, will they put faith in him of whom they have not heard? How, in turn, will they hear without someone to preach? 15 How, in turn, will they preach unless they have been sent forth? Just as it is written: “How comely are the feet of those who declare good news of good things!”
for independent thinking
read
1 corinthians 1:10
Now I exhort YOU, brothers, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ that YOU should all speak in agreement, and that there should not be divisions among YOU, but that YOU may be fitly united in the same mind and in the same line of thought.
what about Acts 15 read all the chapter for your benefit
and by their hand they wrote:
“The apostles and the older men, brothers, to those brothers in Antioch and Syria and Ci·li´cia who are from the nations: Greetings! 24 Since we have heard that some from among us have caused YOU trouble with speeches, trying to subvert YOUR souls, although we did not give them any instructions, 25 we have come to a unanimous accord and have favored choosing men to send to YOU together with our loved ones, Bar´na·bas and Paul, 26 men that have delivered up their souls for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 We are therefore dispatching Judas and Silas, that they also may report the same things by word. 28 For the holy spirit and we ourselves have favored adding no further burden to YOU, except these necessary things, 29 to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication. If YOU carefully keep yourselves from these things, YOU will prosper. Good health to YOU!”
and Hebrew 13:17
17 Be obedient to those who are taking the lead among YOU and be submissive, for they are keeping watch over YOUR souls as those who will render an account; that they may do this with joy and not with sighing, for this would be damaging to YOU.
all those who did not obey Moses did not enter the promised land.
Go figure God always use Men to direct his people.
go figure.
Joepub.
"Oh, I have a clue and from reading your responses I now know that you don't."
You don't have a clue.
" You need to do some more research in your own publications, but then again, you say you're not tied to them."
The publications are the same as a local needs part at the meeting. The overseers - governing body - gives instruction to the needs of the congregation - worldwide.
Are the local needs part some kind of law? No, they are simply what the overseers think that the congregation needs. Is anyone tied to them? Of course not.
"You are one strange JW. New convert? Young in age? "
No,I'm not strange, everyone else is. 22 years in the truth and 1000 more to go.
"For instance, during the 80's it was strongly stated that we should not hold back from placing the Watchtower (with its meat) to householders reasoning that they will never understand this stuff. Now [decades later], they've decided that the householder needs a lighter Watchtower designated for the field ministry."
So what of it? That was one theory and they tried it and it may not have gotten the results of the understanding. But you also must remember that the study articles used to be written by the anointed for the anointed.
So they tried something new. No big deal.
" One could ask, why wasn't this done earlier when the rank and file witnesses were questioning the value of placing Watchtowers with study articles??? "
No one questioned the value of placing study articles. What else was one to do? The objective was to encourage the public to the meetings to study it. That was why they could not be offered for money after the study article date.
"Yes, the rank and file must never think for themselves, or question things."
Wrong.
" They are told to listen to the faithful and discreet class (which is only the 9-men GB btw). "
Wrong, The FDS is the structure or program of giving spiritual instruction to the whole congregation. The anointed is the textbook definition.
Are you hearing something "different at the assembly and conventions???"
Yes, I hear something entirely different than what you Watchtower worshippers think. Yesterday I heard a great talk by Anthony Morris that complete blows you all out of the water.
Seng:
"I believe that ronde has not been a Jehovah's Witness very long."
Longer than most.
" It is evident by his comments that he does not know what he is talking about."
I know exactly what I am talking about.
" ronde is one of those who will never do personal research because he believes that he has the truth and that all the Watchtower publications contain the truth."
No, I just don't make it so complex. Jehovah is God and Jesus is his son. What more is there?
" He just parrots whatever he has heard at the meetings and what he has been told at the conventions. Actually for people like ronde, the Watchtower organization is the best place for them."
No, I learn from the meetings and assemblies because that is the official source for teachings for Jehovah's Witnesses. While you all are picking on the Watchtower, there are many that do not work at the Watchtower who have faith and teach. You ought to listen to them.
d.boon said:
"Jehovah’s Witnesses are an apostate branch of The Millennial Dawners"
Not true. Russell had learned from them but we are not a branch from them.
"What gives you authority over someone else’s faith?"
We are not masters over anyone's faith.
" Do you REALLY believe that holy spirit brought a bunch of old white men together in New York and COUSED them to be a Governing Body?"
No, We believe that the holy spirit uses faithful men who make up the governing body of JWs who are various races, colors and are in no particular location.
" Or would you rather look at it realistically that they placed themselves in that position? "
They are doing a good job.
"Even as the Pharisees and Sadducees placed themselves in the Seat of Moses?"
But they put burdens on the people whereas the GB does not.
"I am an active Jehovah’s Witness, but I can face reality. You should try doing the same."
Define active. The question is are you faithful and loyal.
"Here’s a brother who spent 50 years at Bethel service, that’s a life time of work."
The past does not matter. What is his future?
" If you can’t respect that what can you respect? Are his feelings not valid because they make you uncomfortable? "
We don't have his feelings, we have this posting by GBLetters. There is a difference.
enigmatic said:
"It would be kind of fun to start a pool to see when it becomes a conscience matter to celebrate birthdays, christmas, and eventually interact with formerly DFed individuals."
It already is a conscience matter.
However, Christians choose not to celebrate birthdays (a day that they can not possibly remember) and Christmas and not to associate with DFd people.
Steve said:
"We have been there, wore the T shirt, got the mug. I have been an elder, I know what goes on in Congregations, I know the mindset, I know the problems and the concerns."
And what does that have to do with Jehovah's Witnesses? If you were an elder, then you were the one responsible for that mindset. And the bad mindset is the result of the elders and their being too right wing. So the elders don't know what they are talking about if they are right wingers. But that does not mean you should go left wing either. What is wrong with being balanced?
"The Jehovah's Witness you describe is you and you alone. If you think they are all like you, it's a fantasy in your head."
Well, being balanced is difficult. Sure,being a Christian is hard. If it wasn't hard everyone would do it. It is the difficult that makes it great.
"They ARE obsessed with hours. They hand out a tract to start their hours if the territory is any distance away. Older ones can count hours in 15 minute increments! What is all that about??"
It is about encouraging to do more and making those that can't do more to feel good about what they can do.
"Spirituality is assessed by what you do in field service.
I had to be getting at least 10 hours in service each month to be recommended as a Ministerial Servant."
Well, how else are they to judge it?
" Pioneers are especially spiritual... If elders are pioneers they must be so much more spiritual than the others and so get used more on circuit assemblies. It goes on."
How else is it judged?
"Shepherding was always brought up as part of Circuit needs. There was never enough being done. Why? Because you didnt have to write it down on a report slip."
Well, if it were not a problem, then they would not discuss it.
" And yet shepherding is as important as field service. No point in welcoming people in the front door when thousands were falling out the back."
Right, so as an elder, what did you do to solve the problem...you became the problem.
Nuff said.
Kimmy Jo
"Field service? Come on now, come to your senses. That is like a rat in a running wheel, you are kept so busy doing these "things" you are missing your "life".
We are kept busy so we keep out of trouble. And since when is keeping busy in God's service a bad thing?
'And what does that have to do with Jehovah's Witnesses? If you were an elder, then you were the one responsible for that mindset. And the bad mindset is the result of the elders and their being too right wing. So the elders don't know what they are talking about if 'they are right wingers. But that does not mean you should go left wing either. What is wrong with being balanced?'
You have never been an elder so you dont have a clue what you are talking about. You know nothing of how closely the elders are controlled by the Society. Right wing...left wing???
'Well, how else are they to judge it?'
Not by the number of hours on a reprt slip. People would be known for the love,the kindness, the care they showed. It would be obvious that they were manifesting the fruitages of the spirit in their lives. Anyone can fake the number of hours they put on a report. Anyone can walk about the streets for hours. That is not love or evidence of spirituality.
'Well, if it were not a problem, then they would not discuss it.'
Riiiight.... and your point is?
rond, you said,
"We are kept busy so we keep out of trouble. And since when is keeping busy in God's service a bad thing?"
The point WAS...you are missing out on living life as a gift, in appreciation for all that God has given us, to make our lives enjoyable. I don't run the wheel like you and I have not found trouble. TROUBLE??
Who said it was "God's service" anyway???? They are lying to you.
Steve, the attacks on your message are obviously being taken personal and consequently the responses are so shallow/childish it isn't even funny. You proved your points by the very replies you received. All I can say to everyone is to research the religion yourself - draw your own conclusions with the pressure from the JW's excuses. The Internet has now made it possible to learn the things the leaders of JW's never wanted you to know. What I have found most interesting is that the critical sites knew they would be attacked by JW's, so many of these sites are very careful to post documents (such as this blogger) and quotations right from the pages of the WTS, to prove they aren't mis-quoting the WTS.
Kimmy Jo said:
"The point WAS...you are missing out on living life as a gift, in appreciation for all that God has given us, to make our lives enjoyable."
We are living the "REAL LIFE". The only life that means anything.
We are not missing out on anything by serving Jehovah God.
"I don't run the wheel like you "
You mean that you don't run the race for life.
"and I have not found trouble. TROUBLE??"
You are causing trouble.
"Who said it was "God's service" anyway???? They are lying to you. "
I do. And who is this "they"?
Joepublish said:
"Steve, the attacks on your message are obviously being taken personal and consequently the responses are so shallow/childish it isn't even funny."
On the contrary, you all are the ones attacking and making childish replies.
We are only asking, and not getting an answer to, why do you keep being critical of the WTS and then applying it to JWs?
Ever see the episode of Star Trek NG called "Sins of the Father"? The premise is that Worf's father's discomendation goes on Worf and his children. You all get the wrong idea that what certain writers at the WTS write are the sins of the father and they reflect on on all of us JWs.
That is not the case at all.
As Paul said, we each have to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling.
'We are kept busy so we keep out of trouble.'
Sad that you all have to be kept busy otherwise you would get into trouble.
ronde.....why do you dissect every sentence and paragraph that anyone writes, commenting on every little thing adding your little twist of BS, none of which is relavant?
Do you know who does this just like you??? The WATCHTOWER !!!!!
They do the same thing with the message in the bible.
Steve said:
"Sad that you all have to be kept busy otherwise you would get into trouble. "
Sad that you are in trouble.
Kimmy Jo said:
"ronde.....why do you dissect every sentence and paragraph that anyone writes, commenting on every little thing?"
Because I, unlike anti-Witnesses, am not a coward, I would prefer to dialogue about the issues rather than name calling. What is it with anti-Witnesses? Did they become Eununchs or did Jesse Jackson cut their nuts off and they are afraid to talk about anything? All they know who to do is post articles on websites.
"did Jesse Jackson cut their nuts off"
Wow... what kind of comment is that??? If I made a comment like that, I certainly wouldn't call myself a Christian.
{from Awake 2003}
"Harsh Words That Displease God -
Injurious speech certainly encompasses much more than obscene language. Insults, sarcasm, mockery, and harsh criticism can hurt deeply. Admittedly, we all sin with our tongue, especially in the environment of sarcasm and backbiting that prevails around us. (James 3:2) Still, true Christians should never adopt a casual attitude toward abusive speech. The Bible establishes clearly that Jehovah God disapproves of all speech that injures."
'Because I, unlike anti-Witnesses, am not a coward, I would prefer to dialogue about the issues rather than name calling.'
Here is an example of such 'dialogue.'
'Oh, blow it out you $$$$$$. You are not fooling anyone by counseling us and you are not showing that you are serving Jehovah. So just blow it out your $$$$.'
Yes Joe, I agree with you that making comments like that does not sit well with professing to be a Christian.
But then, Ronde can say what he likes because he is a maverick. He doesnt follow the Governing Body's dictates, nor is he 'obedient to those taking the lead' unless they tell him something at a District Assemblies, which he strangely seems to deem more important and pertinent than anything else which comes from the Organization
We are not arguing with a JW. We are arguing with a troll.
Thanks Steve. I was going to go back and retrieve one (of those many) comments, proving Ronde to be a hypocritical JW. (Interesting how he termed his language as just "dialogue". I call what he said to you, "abusive speech". Someone prove me wrong.)
Makes you wonder were he learned this hypocrisy from? The WTS leaders maybe? It's interesting that Ronde's comments are full of contradictions - 'we are not tied to the Watchtower literature, but you must adhere to what is said at the DC/assemblies'.
Your comment about Ronde is so on the mark - a maverick. I cannot believe what he writes. Even one of the other JW apologist on these blogs had to correct him many times like when he make the blanked statement, 'we have no pedophiles' (i.e. 'Ronde, we did have cases of pedophilia in some congregations').
Oh well, first a maverick, then an ex-JW... the script writes itself.
Thanks again Steve for taking the time to pull that disgusting comment from Ronde's blog. It's these two off-color comments together that tie to the two-witness rule and should be brought before the elders for poor speech. Perhaps one of the other apologists on this board will report him.
Joe Pub,
"Wow... what kind of comment is that??? If I made a comment like that, I certainly wouldn't call myself a Christian."
Well, I can't help it. Seeing the name Kimmy Jo reminds me of Jimmy Kimmel and that is something he would say.
But it is the Reverend Jessee Jackson who said that, not me.
But you did not answer my question.
Why are antiWitnesses such cowards to where they do not dialogue about anything. They just think that they are right and the WTS is wrong and that is that. How arrogant.
JoePub said "hypocritical JW."
first you would have to learn who JWs are and what we believe before you can state that.
"we are not tied to the Watchtower literature, but you must adhere to what is said at the DC/assemblies'."
I never said that we must adhere to anything. But it is at the DCs that we learn. The Watchtower magazine is a global needs part.
"Thanks again Steve for taking the time to pull that disgusting comment from Ronde's blog. It's these two off-color comments together that tie to the two-witness rule and should be brought before the elders for poor speech. Perhaps one of the other apologists on this board will report him."
Well, its been tried and they don't care. They don't believe apostates, no one does. And I never made any off color comments. I tell the truth. AntiWitnesses are cowards. They are afraid to dialogue on things. They just post on webpages.
Ronde, you said, “Well, I can’t help it” – it’s interesting that pedophiles give the same excuse. I would be concerned with your admission because that is a weakness (and I think you know it).
It doesn’t matter that Rev Jesse Jackson said that awful comment, you used (parroted) it because you were angry/upset.
BTW: I see many answers from ex_JW’s. But, I’m sure many are frustrated by your self-exalted attitude. Many JW’s have this because they are reminded how “special” they are – imagine, Jehovah selected them because he saw something good in their heart. It’s an elitist organization. They feel God hand-picked the leaders… that is very debatable.
You said, the “Watchtower magazine is a global needs part”. What in the world do you mean by that? Every JW I know understands the Watchtower to be at the heart of the GB’s dissemination of spiritual truths. That’s why many of the program parts appear in written form the next year, even appearing in Watchtower study articles, because it’s the vehicle for transmitting their interpretations of the Bible to the world.
You seem to want to say that ex_JW’s “just say they are right and JW’s are wrong”. However, after researching the Internet, I see it’s much more than what you would want to insinuate. They present some very convincing arguments and are usually very articulate.
I don’t view the ex_JW’s as cowards… I think it takes introspective and courage to come to terms with problems within their organization. If you want to see people who do NOT want to dialogue, try to contact a GB member with the idea of talking about the criticism of their religion and you will rarely get a dialogue. They don’t speak to any outsiders; they have a press person to handle all questions and discussions.
In conclusion, I have seen and read many of your entries. I can see why many would not want to dialogue with you because you are so biased and insulting. Where do you learn these things? Why do you think it is okay for you to behave this way?
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