Monday, September 8, 2008

Why Tthe Fascination With The End Of The World? BBC Homepage September 8, 2008

On the BBC News homepage there is an article about the fascination with the end of the world.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/7600966.stm
''The Jehovah's Witnesses have issued countless predictions about cataclysmic scenarios that have manifestly failed to come to pass, only ceasing predictions of the end in recent years. Failed predictions seem not to have alienated core believers.''

FAILED PREDICTIONS
Jehovah's Witnesses have predicted end several times, but have stopped
Millerites predicted end of world for 22 October 1844 - day known to followers as Great Disappointment
Edgar C Whisenant wrote 88 Reasons Why the Rapture Could Be in 1988 - followed up with predictions for 1989, 1993, and 1994
Argentinian goalie Carlos Roa gave up football in anticipation of end of world in 2000
Hal Lindsey in 1970's The Late, Great Planet Earth linked end of world to the EU

20 comments:

Ronde said...

So you admit that JWs are not the only ones who look to the end times.

Why the fascination? Why not? People are always asking: Are we there yet?

I would not say countless predictions as they were not predictions at all. Predictions means speak before.

I have several Hal Lindsey books where he says the rapture will happen in 1988.

Anonymous said...

"Woe to those who are craving the day of Jehovah! What, then, will the day of Jehovah mean to you people? It will be darkness, and no light" - Amos 5:18

Anonymous said...

The famous 'Millions Now Living Will Never Die' specifically says that Armageddon will happen in 1925. The book was published years BEFORE the date of 1925.

What we have here is a failure to communicate.

It was Walter Martin that warned us how dangerous it is on the part of cults to redefine the meaning of common words.

"Watchtower is guilty of a failed prediction regarding the year 1925."

The above statement is only false if you REDEFINE the meaning of the following words: "failed", "prediction", "date", "guilty", etc.

It's called Mind Control. "He who controls the past, can control the future."

The average JW will not believe that the Society predicted the End of the World in 1925. NOT EVEN WHEN THEY READ IT FROM A SOCIETY PUBLICATION.

I'm so happy that my mind is no longer being controlled and I now use words and their actual definitions. I don't have to lie to myself and I'm no longer AFRAID of information or facts.

My friends, NEVER fear the pursuit of truth!

Ronde said...

"The famous 'Millions Now Living Will Never Die' specifically says that Armageddon will happen in 1925. The book was published years BEFORE the date of 1925."

So what does that have to do with JWs today?


"It was Walter Martin that warned us how dangerous it is on the part of cults to redefine the meaning of common words."

Walter Martin was closed minded as he was a Baptist and was just against what he considered cults.

"Watchtower is guilty of a failed prediction regarding the year 1925."

Watchtower does not exist anymore.


"The average JW will not believe that the Society predicted the End of the World in 1925. NOT EVEN WHEN THEY READ IT FROM A SOCIETY PUBLICATION."

The average JW does not care what was printed back then.

"I'm so happy that my mind is no longer being controlled and I now use words and their actual definitions. I don't have to lie to myself and I'm no longer AFRAID of information or facts."

But you do lie to others like you did here in stating that it is relevant to JWs. And your mind is controlled by satan.

Anonymous said...

I'm not exactly sure why I am unable to communicate what I'm trying to say.

What was written in 1925 is relevant, because according to Watchtower theology, they were selected in 1918/1919.

So, the Millions Now Living publication was written by God's sole channel on the earth. Their record is on trial here. What do we find? We find that they are guilty of a prediction/prophecy that FAILED.

The mistake that most JWs, including myself, made, was that they accepted that Watchtower was God's organization, but never examined the evidence.

Ironically, what they do NOW is what is irrelevant. We all realize that the time to pass the test is when the test is given. When did Jesus test all of the world's religions? In 1918/1919. So, what was Watchtower doing THEN? This is of utmost importance. How did they score on Jesus' test?

I don't appreciate being called a liar. I certainly don't want to offend anyone. I'm trying to help you.

Ronde said...

anon said:
"What was written in 1925 is relevant, because according to Watchtower theology, they were selected in 1918/1919."

They were selected? So you say that because Rutheford was wrong, or as he said, made an ass of himself, that nullifies the whole religion and all beliefs and all of the people who believe are nullified. I don't think so. The religion is not dependent upon any 'they'. It is dependent upon Jesus.

"So, the Millions Now Living publication was written by God's sole channel on the earth. Their record is on trial here. What do we find? We find that they are guilty of a prediction/prophecy that FAILED."

No, it was written by Rutherford who was a man, not the messiah. His record means nothing. And you write about 1919, but you also write in the present tense "they are guilty". No, they were guilty. But here in 2008, that they is not here. So you should speak to the 'we' who are here.

"The mistake that most JWs, including myself, made, was that they accepted that Watchtower was God's organization, but never examined the evidence."

No, we don't accept that the Watchtower was God's organization. We accepted that the WTBTS was the facility that those who had been anointed with holy spirit started and used for the preaching. The evidence is that they printed billions of publications that helped people understand God's word.

"Ironically, what they do NOW is what is irrelevant. We all realize that the time to pass the test is when the test is given. When did Jesus test all of the world's religions? In 1918/1919. So, what was Watchtower doing THEN? This is of utmost importance. How did they score on Jesus' test?"

So what do we today have to do with the Watchtower? Nothing. JWs are not the Watchtower but are the Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses. The use and continued use of a corporation does not pass down your contempt.

"I don't appreciate being called a liar. I certainly don't want to offend anyone. I'm trying to help you."

Well, don't lie then. But the fact that you condemn us for Rutherford's writings makes you a liar, and it is offensive that you nullify the son of God because you think that a man can stop Jesus' work.

Anonymous said...

Thank you for your reply. I think we're beginning to make some progress.

When I use the term Watchtower, that name carries no negative connotation. The Brooklyn Bethel World Headquarters building has a 'Watchtower' sign on it, even today.

I will use whatever name you'd like. I have a Proclaimers book. I'm also familiar with the more recent corporate adjustments, etc.

It would appear that you're an open-minded person with an honest heart. Moreover, I can only believe that you think for yourself, to an extent, as you're willing to discuss this issue with someone that has been labeled an 'Apostate' by his own JW family members and the organization itself, most likely. Please don't be afraid of me. My heart would formerly tremble in fear, as I glanced at sites critical of the WT. I believed that demons might harm me, etc.

I want to help you gain a little perspective on what you're currently a member of. Let me also add that JWs are currently involved in many great works. Further, I do not question your motives or the motives of the Governing Body. I know that all of you are sincere and truly believe in what you're doing. I did too.

By way of perspective, there are more than 1 million Muslims that are sincere, and they believe they are on the proper path to salvation. This gives us evidence that a worldwide, sincere organization does not, in itself, give evidence of divine approval, as I believe you'd agree.

Put yourself in the mind of a non-JW householder. You contact them, present your message and after a few Bible studies impress upon them the importance of joining the organization, as this is the only way of surviving Armageddon, which is just around the corner. We are deep into the Last Days that Jesus spoke of. Further, the Bible Study is assured that only Jehovah's Witnesses have the truth and are acceptable to God.

OK, here is where we need evidence. The claim of being God's sole channel is something we don't want to assume or take lightly. If JWs are God's organization, then all of mankind need to know about this. How do we go about determining whether or not JWs are God's organization? We have to examine the evidence. Can we simply take their word for it? If a Mormon or a Muslim knocks on our door and tells us the same thing, how do we prove to ourself whether or not their claim is true? We have to examine the evidence.

So, this is why history is important, to me. JWs say that as an organization, they were selected in 1918/1919 by Jesus, after Jesus made an inspection. Please note: This is a current teaching. This is what the modern Christian Congregation of JWs believe.

Does the householder accept this premise by taking their word for it? I don't think you would accept a Mormon's belief that a man was given gold tablets and a special set of glasses to interpret the tablets, would you? You would examine the history of Mormonism and that would have a bearing on whether or not you accepted them as God's chosen people.

Please allow me to ask a few very sincere questions, so as to better understand your point of view and to also help you reflect upon some of the topics that really affeced me.

1) When (what year) would you say JWs became 'God's organization'?

2) If a person a desert island was alone and had a copy of the Bible, could he become a Christian, an be acceptble to God and survive Armageddon?

3) Will JW always be God's organization no matter what doctrines or teachings they promote? Or, must they adhere to the Bible and Jesus? Should you learn that JW teachings are in conflict with the Scriptures, would you follow the Bible or would you follow the organization?

4) Would it be proper for you to leave the organization, if you were to prove to yourself that you had been misled?

Thank you for your time.

Bud said...

Anonymous, could you pick a handle?
You give sound, logical reasoning in a dignified way. You show us the compelling reason we should take note of what was taught years ago.
Do you think some Witnesses apply the Pharisaical merit/demerit system to the Organization? Though they may acknowledge the existence of glaring problems, they say yeah but what about.....
Doesn't the good outweigh the bad? I guess it does until you have been affected by the abuse - only then does it become clear. I am ashamed to say that I didn't think about these problems until my family was hurt terribly by the elders and the organization. Has anyone got to this point without personally being hurt first?

Ronde said...

anon said:
"I want to help you gain a little perspective on what you're currently a member of."

What am I am member of? I don't think that you or anyone else has a better perspective that I do.

" Let me also add that JWs are currently involved in many great works. Further, I do not question your motives or the motives of the Governing Body. I know that all of you are sincere and truly believe in what you're doing. I did too."

Well, that is good. Finally a wise person, (other than me) here.

"By way of perspective, there are more than 1 million Muslims that are sincere, and they believe they are on the proper path to salvation. This gives us evidence that a worldwide, sincere organization does not, in itself, give evidence of divine approval, as I believe you'd agree."

No, because Muslims blow themselves up to kill others and crash planes to kill others.

"Put yourself in the mind of a non-JW householder. You contact them, present your message and after a few Bible studies impress upon them the importance of joining the organization, as this is the only way of surviving Armageddon,"

And no negatives to that. hmmm.


" We are deep into the Last Days that Jesus spoke of. Further, the Bible Study is assured that only Jehovah's Witnesses have the truth and are acceptable to God."

And still no negatives there.

"OK, here is where we need evidence. The claim of being God's sole channel is something we don't want to assume or take lightly."

Why? If there are no negatives, what is the problem?


" If JWs are God's organization, then all of mankind need to know about this. How do we go about determining whether or not JWs are God's organization? "

No. JWs are God's organization because we are a people that are organized to serve Jehovah. One just has to look at the yearbook figures to know that.

"We have to examine the evidence."

Yes, look at the yearbook figures.

"So, this is why history is important, to me. JWs say that as an organization, they were selected in 1918/1919 by Jesus, after Jesus made an inspection. "

Isn't it interesting that people note the inspection but they forget about the refinement afterwards?

And no we do not say that as an organization we were selected in 1918/1919. What did the yearbook back then say? Oh, they had none back then as there was no organization.

In 1918 there wer 3868 preaching Jehovah's message from door to door in a few countries. Not much of an organization. We call that a circuit.


"Please note: This is a current teaching. This is what the modern Christian Congregation of JWs believe."

So what of it? Your application and interpretation is not correct.

"Does the householder accept this premise by taking their word for it? I don't think you would accept a Mormon's belief that a man was given gold tablets and a special set of glasses to interpret the tablets, would you?"

No, I would ask where those tablets are.


" You would examine the history of Mormonism and that would have a bearing on whether or not you accepted them as God's chosen people."

Yes, but not the details words of their writings. The history only in how it fits in God's purposes.

"1) When (what year) would you say JWs became 'God's organization'?"

1931 when we started using that name. But I prefer the word congregation. When we directed our attention to serving Jehovah his way, we became his people and when several started congregation, we became Jehovah's congregation.

"2) If a person a desert island was alone and had a copy of the Bible, could he become a Christian, an be acceptble to God and survive Armageddon?"

Well, there are people deserted and on islands and they have Bibles and they don't know Christ or Christianity. They may know nominal Christianity, but that is not acceptable to God.


"3) Will JW always be God's organization no matter what doctrines or teachings they promote? "

No. Only if and when we serve Jehovah as a people.

"Or, must they adhere to the Bible and Jesus? "

Ditto what I said above because it is the same thing.

"Should you learn that JW teachings are in conflict with the Scriptures, would you follow the Bible or would you follow the organization?"

If we are in conflict then we will change to be in line with the Bible and thus still be Jehovah's people.

But why do people bring up that objection but never actually state a conflict?

"4) Would it be proper for you to leave the organization, if you were to prove to yourself that you had been misled?"

Nopee, because people have tried to say that but have never showed that we are mislead. Mislead means that we are following someone's lead. And the only lead we follow is the Christ.

Ronde said...

Bud why can't people do something constructive with the elders and the organization rather than the antiness and negativity?

Anonymous said...

Ronde, I suppose our impasse is much like I encountered when I engaged in the door-to-door activity as a JW. Even if you READ a point from the Bible, the householder will not accept it.

I find myself in the same position when speaking with you. I totally understand why we cannot communicate, because I saw it firsthand for more than 20 years, while in the ministry.

I wish you well in your spiritual pursuits.

Please be assured that I cannot describe my current efforts as negative. I view my current ministry as seriously as my JW ministry.

Put yourself in my shoes. Once I came to believe that I was not serving God properly, my conscience would not allow me to sit silent. I'm sure you can understand that on an intellectual level.

Have a great week.

Anonymous said...

Bud,

It would probably definitely be better if I used a handle. I'll think about it.

You are right. When a JW personally sees an "ugly" aspect of the organization, they will sometimes give themselves permission to turn their (existing) critical thinking skills towards their beliefs.

At this point, with a little research and prayer, the entire theology crumbles.

For others, you can actually reason from the Scriptures.

Personally, I was a total Kool-Aid drinker and nevery suspected anything. I was a blind follower and I was happy. My responses would have been similar to those of Ronde. The organization was right, no matter what the details were.

J said...

ronde,
You seem like a person who really genuinely cares. You feel that your belief system can be supported by the Bible, History and Science, is that correct?

When asked "Should you learn that JW teachings are in conflict ...would you follow the organization?"

You responded. "If we are in conflict then we will change"

May I ask politely and with all due respect for your beliefs, why have the following not changed?

How do you explain JW's sticking to 607 B.C.E as a date for the destruction of Jerusalem when this date has been debunked since the 70's?

How do you explain their Arianism? Most JW's don't even know the historical origin of their views regarding God (Jehovah). How many JW's know their view can be traced to 325?

Have you researched the sources quoted in "Reasoning from the Scriptures" under Cross? (I am here making the assumption you endorse this publication. If not I apologize for linking your views to it)

Why the misquotes?

Why does the so called 'Faithful Slave' have nothing to do with printing the Watchtower? If you feel they do, please explain how. I honestly do not understand this belief and no JW has been able to explain what connection these remaining 144,000 people on earth have to do with publishing a magazine written in Brooklyn New York by a 'Writing Dept'.

Ronde said...

J said:
"You seem like a person who really genuinely cares. You feel that your belief system can be supported by the Bible, History and Science, is that correct?"

Yes.

"When asked "Should you learn that JW teachings are in conflict ...would you follow the organization?"
You responded. "If we are in conflict then we will change""
May I ask politely and with all due respect for your beliefs, why have the following not changed?"

"How do you explain JW's sticking to 607 B.C.E as a date for the destruction of Jerusalem when this date has been debunked since the 70's?"

Well, they use the 70 year desolation ending in 537 and starting in 607.

Personally I don't think that it matters because even if Jerusalem was destroyed in 587, the gentile times began in 607 and ended in 1914 because that was the preWatchtower belief. So either way you look at it, 1914 is the end of the gentile times.

"How do you explain their Arianism? Most JW's don't even know the historical origin of their views regarding God (Jehovah). How many JW's know their view can be traced to 325?"

Why do I have to explain it? Psalms 83:18 says Jehovah is God.
What does Arian have to do with that? He did not write psalms.


"Have you researched the sources quoted in "Reasoning from the Scriptures" under Cross? (I am here making the assumption you endorse this publication. If not I apologize for linking your views to it)"

It is good. But I don't care about whether it quotes or not. I don't know whether Jesus died on a cross or stake as I was not there are there are no photos or descriptions in the Bible. The point to remember is that we are not to use the cross in worship.

"Why the misquotes?"

I don't know of any and it does ot change the fact that we don't know if it is a cross or stake. But either way, it is not to be used in worship.

"Why does the so called 'Faithful Slave' have nothing to do with printing the Watchtower?"

Because they are old and they have younger ones running the presses.

"I honestly do not understand this belief and no JW has been able to explain what connection these remaining 144,000 people on earth have to do with publishing a magazine written in Brooklyn New York by a 'Writing Dept'. "

Because in the early 1900s the anointed ones started the WTBTS and the structure that exists now.

J said...

Ronde,
You have seriously deviated from reason and logic.

You state
"Personally I don't think that it matters because even if Jerusalem was destroyed in 587, the gentile times began in 607"

Whoa. How do you come up with 607? You can't just pull dates out of the air. What evidence could you present to support this made up date?

You state "Psalms 83:18 says Jehovah is God."

This had nothing what so ever to do with the question asked. Again why adopt the Arian view?

I ask "Why the misquotes?"
You state "I don't know of any"

I just cited one in the publication 'Reasoning from the Scriptures'. You state "I don't care about whether it quotes or not."

You may choose not to care, or not to research the misquotes. This does not make them go away. If you choose to ignore policemen when you drive this does not cause them to disappear.

I ask
"Why does the so called 'Faithful Slave' have nothing to do with printing the Watchtower?"

You state: "Because they are old and they have younger ones running the presses."

Let me restate the question. Why does the 'Faithful Slave' have nothing to do with the Research, Writing, Publishing, or Printing of the Watchtower Magazine?

You state:
"Because in the early 1900s the anointed ones started the WTBTS and the structure that exists now."

How do you reconcile that with your earlier comments as follows:

"So what does that have to do with JWs today?"

"Watchtower does not exist anymore"

"The average JW does not care what was printed back then"

Either their past matters or it does not. If everything written today by the org is from God based on the assumption that “in the early 1900s the anointed ones started the WTBTS” then the failed prophecies cited by ‘Anonymous’ matter. If you dispel these failed prophecies with the comments:
"So what does that have to do with JWs today?" "Watchtower does not exist anymore"
Then one must ask themselves ‘What does the Watchtower have to do with what happened in the 1900’s?’

You can’t pick and choose. Either it’s from God, or it’s not. If it’s from God then why did he fail to predict the end so many times? If it was just men predicting and writing the Watchtower, why do you follow men over scripture and Christ?

J said...

Ronde,
Here is the thing you need to know. These posts are not about winning an argument. The majority of persons posting on Blogs such as this have done considerable research and know without a doubt that Jehovah’s Witnesses don’t have the truth. We have put a lot on the line for truth. We may have been abandon by friends and family. Many like myself have spend years in “Full Time Service”, given up a much needed college education, made huge life decisions based on what men in Brooklyn had to say, men that in many cases we knew personally.

I don’t discuss with you to win an argument. The only reason we post it to encourage you to research and think. If you have the ‘truth’ then you need to prove to yourself you have it. If you think thoughts like "The average JW does not care what was printed back then" and "I don't care about whether it quotes or not." this is only leading you down a dangerous path. You need to do some serious research about your church to see if they are from God or not. If they are from God you have nothing to fear. You need to read what material like that quoted in ‘Reasoning from the Scriptures’ has to say. You need to research the Bible not just in Watchtower publications. If you were a Mormon and you only did research in Mormon publications you may get a very distorted view of their history.

You need to read this book.
http://www.amazon.com/Crisis-Conscience-Raymond-Franz/dp/0914675044

You need to see what Bible commentaries have to say on the Trinity, Cross, First Century Christians. You need to study the reformation, the great awakenings the pieces of history that landed you where you are today.

If you don’t know what I mean when I say Arian, you need to find out. If you think the Father=the Son=Holy Spirit is the Trinity doctrine then you need to do more research to understand what people really mean when they use the word. If you don’t know the context of Acts 15 you need to read it. (Chances are you don’t or you wouldn’t carry a blood card). We care about you. If you are young, before you get married, forgo education and the like. Find out the truth.

Ronde said...

J said:"Ronde said 'Personally I don't think that it matters because even if Jerusalem was destroyed in 587, the gentile times began in 607'
Whoa. How do you come up with 607? You can't just pull dates out of the air. What evidence could you present to support this made up date?"

Did you not read the part where I said I go by the pre-Watchtower chronology because Nelson Barbour changed it to where the desolation started at Zedekiah and lasted 70 years. Prior to him, the belief was that Jerusalem was destroyed in 587 and the first invasion were Daniel was taken away and Jehoikim became vassel king was in 607, 3 years in his reign.

"You state "Psalms 83:18 says Jehovah is God."
This had nothing what so ever to do with the question asked. Again why adopt the Arian view?"

I have no idea what the Arian view is.


"I ask "Why the misquotes?"
You state "I don't know of any"
I just cited one in the publication 'Reasoning from the Scriptures'. You state "I don't care about whether it quotes or not."

If I don't read the book then how can I care what it says?


"You may choose not to care, or not to research the misquotes. This does not make them go away. "

Does it change anything? I dont think so. Any accusations of misquotes is only done to attack the WTS, not to teach the truth.



"I ask
"Why does the so called 'Faithful Slave' have nothing to do with printing the Watchtower?"
You state: "Because they are old and they have younger ones running the presses."
Let me restate the question. Why does the 'Faithful Slave' have nothing to do with the Research, Writing, Publishing, or Printing of the Watchtower Magazine?"

They don't have nothing to do with it because that is exactly what the FDS is, the writing, publishing and printing, but not only of the magazine, but the KM, the outlines, etc.


You state:
"Because in the early 1900s the anointed ones started the WTBTS and the structure that exists now."
How do you reconcile that with your earlier comments as follows:
"So what does that have to do with JWs today?"
"Watchtower does not exist anymore"
"The average JW does not care what was printed back then""""

Because the only thing that matters is what is taught today. The WTS does not exist or is going away, it is the CCJW that matters.


"Either their past matters or it does not. If everything written today by the org is from God based on the assumption that “in the early 1900s the anointed ones started the WTBTS” then the failed prophecies cited by ‘Anonymous’ matter."

No, they do not matter.

Answer me this.
What does any of those so-called prophesies have to do with me? I didn't write them.

Those on the governing body did not write them?


" If you dispel these failed prophecies with the comments:
"So what does that have to do with JWs today?" "Watchtower does not exist anymore"
Then one must ask themselves ‘What does the Watchtower have to do with what happened in the 1900’s?’"

That has nothing to do with the reality of the religion itself, simply put, Jehovah is God, Jesus is his son, and Christians need to behave themselves. Nothing else matters.


"You can’t pick and choose. Either it’s from God, or it’s not. If it’s from God then why did he fail to predict the end so many times? "

So what if it is or is not from God?

What does that have to do with me and you?

Why is it that MY (capital my) religion fails because of what ones did years ago?


"If it was just men predicting and writing the Watchtower, why do you follow men over scripture and Christ? "

Whatever gives you the idea that I follow men over scripture?

Ronde said...

J said:
"Ronde,
Here is the thing you need to know. These posts are not about winning an argument."

I know because I have won every argument before it begins because I have the true God.

" The majority of persons posting on Blogs such as this have done considerable research and know without a doubt that Jehovah’s Witnesses don’t have the truth."

But that is not what is talked about here. People talk about the Watchtower and their experiences and insults, etc. No one has talked about research and the religion of Jehovah's Witnesses.


" We have put a lot on the line for truth. We may have been abandon by friends and family. "

No one has mentioned any of it but me.

"Many like myself have spend years in “Full Time Service”, given up a much needed college education, made huge life decisions based on what men in Brooklyn had to say, men that in many cases we knew personally."

No, it was not based on men in Brooklyn, it was based on a choice you made because you read the Bible and believed it.

"I don’t discuss with you to win an argument. "

Because you can't.

"The only reason we post it to encourage you to research and think. If you have the ‘truth’ then you need to prove to yourself you have it."

I had researched the truth and religion before I ever got baptized and I did so because it is the truth.

" If you think thoughts like "The average JW does not care what was printed back then" and "I don't care about whether it quotes or not." this is only leading you down a dangerous path."

Nope. The relgion is not about the Watchtower and what they wrote back then.

The religion is about serving Jehovah God through his son and how he will bring a kingdom.

" You need to do some serious research about your church to see if they are from God or not."

Read what I just said in the last line. That is all that needs to be said.

" If they are from God you have nothing to fear."

As per what I wrote above, the they that matters is Jehovah and Jesus and they are of God.

" You need to read what material like that quoted in ‘Reasoning from the Scriptures’ has to say. You need to research the Bible not just in Watchtower publications. "

Whatever gives you the idea that I research just in the Watchtower publications? I don't do that. That is why I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses because our beliefs are correct.

I have read Ray Franz and he is wanting as he just talks about the Watchtower.

"You need to see what Bible commentaries have to say on the Trinity, Cross, First Century Christians. You need to study the reformation, the great awakenings the pieces of history that landed you where you are today."

As I said, trinity is false. Did Jesus die on cross or stake, I don't know, no one does. Not an issue. The issue is that it is not to be used in worship.

I have studied things more than you can imagine.

"If you don’t know what I mean when I say Arian, you need to find out."

I don't care about this guy way back then.

Psalm 83:18 says Jehovah is God,
John 3:16 says Jesus is his son.

Nothing more is needed.

" If you think the Father=the Son=Holy Spirit is the Trinity doctrine then you need to do more research to understand what people really mean when they use the word."

How, they don't even understand. Since it is a human doctrine, what does it matter?


"If you don’t know the context of Acts 15 you need to read it. (Chances are you don’t or you wouldn’t carry a blood card)."

I know it well. I don't carry a blood card. I carry a DPA.

I know the truth more than you will ever know.

Ronde said...

I find it funny that "J" tells me to do research:

I get messages from Catholic Answers forum.

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* Are weddings allowed on holy days?
* Do guardian angels go to purgatory?
* Should we be the Blessed Virgin's slaves?
* How do I fight Darwinism?


Dumb questions that they ask.

"Praying with your body is most appropriate for Christians. In the Eastern Church they often incorporate the Jesus Prayer with breathing. The Liturgy incorporates bodily jestures with prayer.
I use my body to pray the Liturgy of the Hours every day as a Dominican. We kneel, sit, stand and bow throughout the various hours. Go to it!

Fr. Vincent Serpa, O.P."

"Can you get married on a holy day of obligation, August 15th? Even if the day falls on a Saturday?
afiorella

Catholic Answers Apologist

"Hi,

There is no law that says that you can't. You would have to check with your parish. Usually on such days there are extra Masses. But there may be some time in between. It's really the pastor's call.

Fr. Vincent Serpa, O.P."

J said...

My Last Post.

Ronde

In summary.

You seem to be ignorant about 607. I cannot help that.

You state "I have no idea what the Arian view is."

Again you remain ignorant. I can't help that.

About the secular research you state:

"If I don't read the book then how can I care what it says?"

Again ignorance at it's best.


You state: "Does it change anything? I dont think so. Any accusations of misquotes is only done to attack the WTS, not to teach the truth."

This is not an accusation. It is plain truth you ignore. I 'attack' WTS because they lie. I am only bringing the truth to light.

You state:"No one has talked about research and the religion of Jehovah's Witnesses."

Oh yes we have. You just choose to be ignorant about it.


You state: "exactly what the FDS is, the writing, publishing and printing, but not only of the magazine, but the KM, the outlines, etc."

I know you think this. But sadly it's a bold faced lie.

You state: "What does any of those so-called prophesies have to do with me? I didn't write them." "Those on the governing body did not write them?"

Those who wrote those prophesies did serve on the GB. It's true many have now passed away. But these prophesies were made by members of your 'faithful slave'.

Again you choose to exchange the truth for a lie.

You state:
"No, it was not based on men in Brooklyn, it was based on a choice you made because you read the Bible and believed it."

Not only do you choose to remain ignorant, you are also arrogant. I know why I made the decisions I made. You don't. So you need to be quiet when I state personal facts.


I state:"I don’t discuss with you to win an argument. "

You state: "Because you can't."

Well that pretty much speaks for itself. If that is your attitude I guess this discussion is over.

________________________________

I think I have stated my points very clearly. Anyone reading this can decide for themselves who is in denial and who lives in reality.

Sadly in conclusion the follow quote is appropriate.

'Winning an argument on the Internet is like winning a contest at the Special Olympics you may have won but who did you beat?'