Saturday, September 27, 2008

From A Brother In The Zimbabwe Bethel

Hi to you all,
Zimbabwe is going through a very difficult time. We have just heard that the branch has had to release 24 brothers from Bethel. That will bring the Bethel family down to about 60 odd. Some will go into the special pioneer work and others back to supporting a local congregation. That is seven married couples and ten single brothers. Others may be asked to leave if the economic situation does not improve.
The branch has also had to cut back on a large number of special pioneers. So far this does not include me....!!! Additionally the whole Kingdom Hall building program has stopped and all construction brothers sent home. So far the program has built about 450 new Kingdom Halls for about 530 congregations under this assistance to countries with limited resources program.
The reason for all this is the deplorable economic situation that the country and branch has to work under. Our inflation is so high that by the time money comes in to the country, goes through the banking system and goes out to be used it has lost its value. At present US $1.00 is sitting at Z$100 billion. It will be worse this afternoon..!! So you may think, for example, that you are going to receive the equivalent of US$10. By the time you actually get it the value has dropped to a few cents. We can only draw Z$100 billion a day in cash if the banks have cash. Checks and swipe cards are limited.
We have not had bread in months. Fuel is scarcely available but only in foreign money. No mealie meal, the basic food item for the locals, no sugar, flour, salt, cooking oil, etc. Electricity and water are often off for long periods. Some areas for months and months. So it is all very trying. The whole country is on its knees and the politicians do nothing to help. But then this is Satan's system. On the positive side. We had our Kingdom Hall dedicated on Saturday. 239 came from the two congregations that will use it. One English and one Shona. The Hall itself was a major effort. The site is on clay soil and so we had to go down with eleven reinforced concrete pillars about three meters. It took as long to build our Hall as it took the brothers to build our new Assembly Hall. 15 months.....!! Just had a new peak of over 33,000 which is very encouraging as about five million have left the country for greener pastures in Europe, America, Australia and South Africa due to the problems here. So a peak in publishers is welcome news.
Just came back from doing some rural witnessing today. We have not been out to our calls in the rural area of our territory due to the political intimidations that has been going on with the elections. Many brothers have had a very difficult time and some loosing everything. Typical of Satan. The brothers warned us not to go out there.
But today it was quiet and we were very well received. The Truth is still good to some here.
Sadly we may have to leave before the year is out as we can no longer manage economically and medically. The three of us will move to England. The Medical Aid Societies, we have been relying on to assist with medical expenses, have collapsed. Along with most other institutions. It has been so sad to see such a beautiful country go down the drain...but then the whole world will soon be following suit. But we are well. A____ had a cold and cough but now coming out of that.
So keep all the brothers here in your prayers, they need them. We will continue to fight the fine fight. Your faithfulness is such an encouragement to us.
Warm regards, P
The Watchtower is a multi-billion dollar organization and yet these brothers have to rely on worldly organizations for assistance. Shameful!

103 comments:

Anonymous said...

I await Ronde's brilliance!

Ackmed the Dead Terrorist said...

SILENCE

I KEEL YOU!!!!!

Anonymous said...

Nothing can keel Ronde!

Voice of Reason said...

I don't know who this Ronde person is that people have been writing about, but here is some reasoning.

"The Watchtower is a multi-billion dollar organization and yet these brothers have to rely on worldly organizations for assistance. Shameful!"

The Watchtower Society is not a multi-billion dollar organization. They own some buildings but that is not cash in the bank.

Look around and see that the world economy is in trouble. The 700 billion dollar bailout shows that those big wigs do not know anything.

Did you even read this part"The reason for all this is the deplorable economic situation that the country and branch has to work under. Our inflation is so high that by the time money comes in to the country, goes through the banking system and goes out to be used it has lost its value."

It's the economy stupid.

chocolatepuddingeyes said...

GBL,

Do you have records to show how much the WTS has sent to the branch in Zimbabwe to take care of their needs?

If the Society only has funds in foreign currency to send, and the funds evaporate due to currency exchange, I don't think that is something the Society is in control of, do you?

Branches around the world are going to have problems as the financial crisis spreads globally. We saw the beginning of the financial meltdown last summer with the start of the sub-prime mortgage crisis. Now we are seeing bank failures left and right. The last time I checked 14 banks had failed in the US in 2008. You can keep tabs on the banks failures here:

http://www.fdic.gov/bank/individual/failed/banklist.html

With the collapse of big investment firms and the insurance company, AIG, the US gov't is in big, big trouble. Sure, they bailed out Freddie and Fannie, Bears and Stearns, and some others, but all they are doing is putting bandaids on a serious gash in the finance system. They might be able to delay the inevitable for a few weeks or a few months, but we're looking at conditions being ripe for the start of the great tribulation.

Anonymous said...

Ronde wrote: "The Watchtower Society is not a multi-billion dollar organization. They own some buildings but that is not cash in the bank."

Riiiiiiight.

Anonymous said...

That was an informative letter. Thanks for including it here. I feel sorry for the people of Zimbabwe--JW or not. This certainly isn't exclusive to Zim or Jehovah's Witnesses.

A letter we saw six months ago from Pentecostal missionaries in the Philippines included a strange prayer request. Strange because it was NOT asking for money but for everyone to pray for the US Dollar! Why? Because the American people are the major supporters of all denominations' missions and their gifts come in US dollars. The letter said that every US$ was [at that time] worth only 80 cents!

As for the Bethelites being sent home from Z-Bethel that happened at Brooklyn too--on much a larger scale. Like Z, some former Bethelites were designated Special Pioneers but most were told their services were no longer needed and to go "home"--wherever that may have been years ago when they gave up everything to serve at Bethel.

The pity is that these people received only what you'd call an allowance or a stipend all the years they severed at Bethel. They have nothing with which to start a new life outside the commune called Bethel.

No doubt they will soon be relying upon the kindness of Satan's world (government welfare; health care, housing, food stamps and church food banks) to survive the same way so many Pioneers do now.



The WTBTS has sold and is selling the majority of their properties in Brooklyn Heights. The Factory beside the Brooklyn Bridge with the big "Watchtower" sign on it" sold for nearly half a Billion--that's with a B--dollars this year. (Tax free of course, because the WTBTS is a non profit organization.

Anonymous said...

During my final shepherding call by two elders, I reminded them that the congregation expense report never includes a nursing home bill for any older publishers.

I then told them that Brother Rutherford told the little kids not to get married, way back in 1921, because Armageddon would come in 1925, with 'Millions Now Living will Never Die'.

I then asked them to explain what it meant, that Armageddon was 'just around the corner'.

They didn't have an answer.

kimmy jo said...

vor says,
"I don't know who this Ronde person is that people have been writing about, but here is some reasoning."

Look, vor/ronde, here is how it can be explained that you, vor IS actually ronde. Ronde simply disappeared, vor appears, you both have the exact same style, condescending, critical and sarcastic line by line commentary.
It is that simply explained how easily your cover has been figured out. DAAAA!!!

JoePublish said...

Ronde (alias Voice of Reason) said: "It's the economy stupid."

JW's "claim" to be Christian. They claim to let the scriptures guide them, such as: "Let your utterance be always with graciousness, seasoned with salt..." (Col 4:6)

Did you notice that the scripture said, let your utterance "always" be with graciousness.

I ask, "Is this the type of harsh language you would expect from a Christian?" (Calling someone "stupid" is not very gracious.)

JoePublish said...

Voice of Reason said, "I don't know who this Ronde person is that people have been writing about..."

Look in the mirror and you'll see him with your own eyes. (Of course that was your previous alias, not your "real" name in case you need to be reminded of this.)

spiritualbrother said...

Maybe the Bethelites should have formed an workers union like the employees in many industries do.

kimmy jo said...

Why build Kindom Halls when basic needs can't be met? Hmmmm.....

JoePublish said...

"Maybe the Bethelites should have formed an workers union like the employees in many industries do."

Too bad JW'S were taught that the JW's religion is not a secular organziation. Yet, it seems to imitate secular organizations that utilize "down-sizing" tactics.

Look, most (if not all Bethelites) were under the impression that if they go to Bethel longterm (thus sacrificing their future), they would be taken care of.

I'm sure not many of them thought, 'geez... should I ever have to worry about getting laid off from an all-volunteer organization?'

Anonymous said...

As usual a copy-n-paste job from JWD forum, except GBL forgot to include a sentence from the poster at the star of the post:

"I got this email from my cousin. I don't know if it is true, but it looks like the society is being run out of Africa....."

...makes me wonder...

Sheeplike said...

What proof does GBL have for always saying that the
" Watchtower is a multi-billion dollar organization"

The fact is it is a non-profit organization, and most follow stringent US laws. Unlike may others- like American TV evangelists- there is no one living it up off donated funds.

JoePublish said...

"The Watchtower is a multi-billion dollar organization and yet these brothers have to rely on worldly organizations for assistance. Shameful!"

Individuals have contributed monetarily for decades to this religion. However, never does the WTS assist individuals who now need financial help because the system has gone on for decades longer than THEY promised it would.

Good and sincere individual JW's who have hit on hard times (due to no fault of their own) have to get assistance from charities run by OTHER religious and worldly organizations.

This true-to-life scenario reflects poorly on this so-call 'only true religion'.

JoePublish said...

Anon said: "I then told them that Brother Rutherford told the little kids not to get married, way back in 1921, because Armageddon would come in 1925, with 'Millions Now Living will Never Die'.

I then asked them to explain what it meant, that Armageddon was 'just around the corner'.

They [the visiting elders] didn't have an answer."

Providing false hopes to people is one of the cruelest things you can do. Continuing the false hope (by saying it's right around the corner) is outrageous.

Playing God (by insisting and even promising you know when he is going to do something) is wrong. Nobody but Jehovah knows his own timetables.

Any attempt to play God is WRONG.

btw: For the most part, JW's do an awful job of taking care of their elderly members. Why? Because service is MORE important or they use it as an excuse. What a shame.

Anonymous said...

This looks like a personal email. Did you have the writer's permission to publish it? Do you think that is ethical?

Anonymous said...

Look, most (if not all Bethelites) were under the impression that if they go to Bethel longterm (thus sacrificing their future), they would be taken care of.

I think the Bethelites understand the situation and will remember the example of Jesus who came to minister, not to be ministered to.

If I were in Bethel and became aware that my services weren't needed or were a liability to the brotherhood, then I would willingly make changes. And I think any responsible Witness would feel the same.

I am sure Jehovah will take care of them.

Anonymous said...

Ethical? Like the bulls**t 'Theocratic Warfare'?

Puh-lease.

JoePublish said...

Perhaps newer JW's aren't aware that at one time Bethelites were to stay at least 4 years.

Many were encouraged to make a "life" of it! And some of those have now been asked to leave.

My normal human feeling about this is concern and sadness. I hope they can make it in this world.

JoePublish said...

Anon commented about how ethical is Theocratic Warfare?

First, I would suggest that all JW's read this (because many - esp newer ones - are not aware of this):

http://www.silentlambs.org/theopressinfo.htm

Anonymous said...

A couple of years ago a Bethelite had a motor vehilce accident that caused the death of someone in the other car. The family of that person sued the WTBTS and prevailed winning a million dollars plus. (Sorry I don't recall the exact amount.)

After that loss the Watchtower had every Bethelite - even the long timers - sign a letter saying they were volunteers. (Isn't it great to have attorneys on staff.)

Now the Organization's $$$ is protected from lawsuits and it cannot be expected to pay benefits to employees; cover health insurance, workers' compensation or unemployment insurance. Good deal for the WT - sad day for the devoted.

Anonymous said...

First, I would suggest that all JW's read this (because many - esp newer ones - are not aware of this):
http://www.silentlambs.org/theopressinfo.htm


Although this post has nothing to do with the subject being discussed and doesn't answer the question I raised, namely, whether it is ethical to steal someone else's private email and publish it on a blog for purposes that the author would certainly not approve, let's answer the question anyway.

Here is a quotation from the web page you cite.

"We must tell the truth to one who is entitled to know, but if one is not so entitled we may be evasive. ... As a soldier of Christ he is in theocratic warfare and he must exercise added caution when dealing with God's foes. Thus the Scriptures show that for the purpose of protecting the interests of God's cause, it is proper to hide the truth from God's enemies."
(Quotes from The Watchtower, June 1st 1960 Issue, Pages 351-352)


Now the quote is accurate, but notice the ellipsis, that is the three dots, which show something has been missed out. What was that?

The first sentence missed out says: "But we may not tell a falsehood."

Further on in the article, it says, "Should circumstances require a Christian to take the witness stand and swear to tell the truth, then, if he speaks at all, he must utter the truth"

As we can see, if you read the articles in full, the articles that opposers use to try to show that Witnesses are authorized to lie as part of theocratic war strategy actually say the opposite, that they should not tell lies.

As for hiding the truth, well, if the Gestapo were looking for my brothers and they asked me where they are, I wouldn't tell them. Does anyone disagree with that position?

As this article reveals, it is actually the opposers who are lying, not Jehovah's Witnesses.

Anonymous said...

The Watchtower is a multi-billion dollar organization and yet these brothers have to rely on worldly organizations for assistance. Shameful!

First of all, GBL knows nothing about the situation and the factors that influenced the decisions referred to in the letter he plagiarized.

Secondly, what Jehovah's Witnesses do inside their organization is none of his business.

Thirdly, nothing in the article shows that brothers "have to rely on worldly organizations for existence," as if they have been receiving some kind of charity handouts. The "Medical Aid Society" he refers to is not some charity, but a type of health insurance in Southern Africa. You pay in some money, your employers pays in some, and if you get sick, the cost of medical treatment is defrayed. (See for instance this newspaper letter which makes it clear what kind of arrangement this is.)

Finally, humanitarian efforts by Jehovah's Witnesses on dozens of occasions is a matter of record.

Anonymous said...

What is going on...what is happening to the World Economy???
Mock all you want, this system is being drawn to it's conclusion. It is going down kicking and screaming......Ezekiel chapter 38

"And I shall certainly turn you (Gog of Magog, Satan) around and put hooks in your jaws and bring you forth with all yor military force,.....And it must occur in that day that things will come up into your heart, and you will certainly think up an injurious scheme....It will be to get a big spoil and to do much plundering...In the final part of the days it will occur.....And it must occur in that day, in the day that Gog comes in.....that my rage will come up into my nose..."

Ezekiel Chapter 38......READ IT!

""Also the traveling merchants of the earth are weeping and mourning over her, because there is no one to buy their full stock any more."
Revelation 18:11

Nothing men try to do (in any congress)will stop the end of this System controlled by Satan and his demons. All governments; gone!
Daniel 2:44

They cannot stop it, it proceedes as Jehovah leads Satan by the ring in his nose to the end of his disasterous rule.

Anonymous said...

As this article reveals, it is actually the opposers who are lying, not Jehovah's Witnesses.

And of course, GBL is not averse to a bit of "theocratic warfare" himself. Wasn't it just a few weeks ago that he explained why he doesn't tell his readers the source of his "information":

"There are many Jehovah's Witnesses who read this blog. I am not trying to hide the source of my information, but feel that some will not read here if the information comes from 'apostate' sites.
I would appreciate your respecting my wishes.


Hiding information from those who don't have the right to know it, perhaps? Or tricking people into reading what they might well choose to read, if they knew what it was?

I don't think that leaves much room to criticize JW teaching on the matter of truthfulness.

Anonymous said...

During my final shepherding call by two elders, I reminded them that the congregation expense report never includes a nursing home bill for any older publishers.

Did you give anything to the older publishers to help them with their expenses?

Perhaps the congregation didn't need to help out because some of its members did.

There are congregations that do help out those in need financially. This is specifically authorized on page 132 of the book Organized to Do Jehovah's Will.

Voice of Reason said...

Chocolate pudding said:
"If the Society only has funds in foreign currency to send, and the funds evaporate due to currency exchange, I don't think that is something the Society is in control of, do you?"

Wow, you are getting wiser. That is twice I agree with you.

It's the economy, stupid.
Simple as that.

What does not make sense is the opposers complaining about the Society and money, when they are having lawsuits against the WTS and they are getting ones to leave and the donations go down. Thus their complaints are hypocritical.

Voice of Reason said...

"but most were told their services were no longer needed and to go "home"--wherever that may have been years ago when they gave up everything to serve at Bethel.The pity is that these people received only what you'd call an allowance or a stipend all the years they severed at Bethel. They have nothing with which to start a new life outside the commune called Bethel.

Say what? NOTHING???/
NOTHING????????

Having Watchtower BTS as a former employer on one's resume is much better than any other former employer or educational institution.

So they gave up nothing and gained everything.

"Tax free of course, because the WTBTS is a non profit organization. "

As it should be because the government does not need taxes from them.

Voice of Reason said...

"During my final shepherding call by two elders, I reminded them that the congregation expense report never includes a nursing home bill for any older publishers."

Why should it?
How much are you donating for it?
Just want to blame others. Wow, you are more liberal than Obama.


"I then told them that Brother Rutherford told the little kids not to get married, way back in 1921, because Armageddon would come in 1925, with 'Millions Now Living will Never Die'."

So he said that? So what? Do you plan your life around Rutherford?

"I then asked them to explain what it meant, that Armageddon was 'just around the corner'.
They didn't have an answer."

Well, what is your answer?

Voice of Reason said...

"Look, vor/ronde, here is how it can be explained that you, vor IS actually ronde. Ronde simply disappeared, vor appears,"

I saw a message that said Ronde died from a blood transfusion.

"you both have the exact same style, condescending, critical and sarcastic line by line commentary."

Well, all Witnesses are that way.

Voice of Reason said...

Joepub said
"Voice of Reason said: "It's the economy stupid."
JW's "claim" to be Christian. They claim to let the scriptures guide them, such as: "Let your utterance be always with graciousness, seasoned with salt..."

Well, you are an idiot because if you knew anything you would know that I was not calling anyone stupid.

Search that phrase on yahoo and it will yield 2.8 million hits.

http://en.wikipedia.org
/wiki/It%27s_the_economy,_stupid

Read it yourself.

Voice of Reason said...

"Voice of Reason said, "I don't know who this Ronde person is that people have been writing about..."
Look in the mirror and you'll see him with your own eyes. (Of course that was your previous alias, not your "real" name in case you need to be reminded of this.) "

Well, if that's what get's your panties in a bunch, (another phrase I did not invent) then go for it. It gets you distracted from the message as you always are distracted.

Voice of Reason said...

"I'm sure not many of them thought, 'geez... should I ever have to worry about getting laid off from an all-volunteer organization?' "

That is right. They are volunteers.

Voice of Reason said...

"This true-to-life scenario reflects poorly on this so-call 'only true religion'. "

Then what are you doing to help in the situation? Are you contributing more or in other ways helping those Bethelites and other Witnesses in need?

Voice of Reason said...

"This looks like a personal email. Did you have the writer's permission to publish it? Do you think that is ethical? "

Nothing he does is ethical. AntiGod people don't care about that.

JoePublish said...

Voice of Reason (previously called himself Ronde) said: "Well, you are an IDIOT because if you knew anything you would know that I was not calling anyone stupid."

And I suppose you did not call anyone an "idiot" either??? (Open mouth Ronde and insert foot - yet again!)

Your above reply above will go down as yet another classic Ronde contradiction! Perhaps you should read this again - I updated it with the very unkind word you used:

"JW's "claim" to be Christian. They claim to let the scriptures guide them, such as: "Let your utterance be always with graciousness, seasoned with salt..." (Col 4:6)

Did you notice that the scripture said, let your utterance "always" be with graciousness.

I ask, "Is this the type of harsh language you would expect from a [ture] Christian?" (Calling someone an "idiot" is not very gracious.)"

p.s. Just as your idolized football player "Ronde Barber" failed his assignment today which caused the opposing player to score a touchdown, you too Ronde (Voice of Reason) "fail" to present sound and reasonable arguments and it contains all sorts of language that is not very gracious.

Anonymous said...

"A couple of years ago a Bethelite had a motor vehilce accident that caused the death of someone in the other car. The family of that person sued the WTBTS and prevailed winning a million dollars plus."

Well, the car's insurance should have covered it.

"After that loss the Watchtower had every Bethelite - even the long timers - sign a letter saying they were volunteers. (Isn't it great to have attorneys on staff.)"

Well, that is why they are the Discreet slave.

"Now the Organization's $$$ is protected from lawsuits and it cannot be expected to pay benefits to employees; cover health insurance, workers' compensation or unemployment insurance. Good deal for the WT - sad day for the devoted. "

Why is it a sad day? People need to take responsibility for their actions and not sue others. And what is good for the WTS is good for everyone.

JoePublish said...

Voice or Reason (previous alias was Ronde) said, "I don't know who this Ronde person is that people have been writing about, but here is some reasoning."

VOR (Ronde), let me ask you a question. Do you know what a lie is? (Perhaps you could provide everyone here with a definition so that we can see if we are all on the same page with you.)

Voice of Reason said...

"As for hiding the truth, well, if the Gestapo were looking for my brothers and they asked me where they are, I wouldn't tell them. Does anyone disagree with that position?"

They opposers don't know what they are talking about,as usual.

JoePublish said...

Ah! I see that the first "Anonymous" appearing immediately above this post sounds an awfully lot like Ronde (and Voice of Reason)!

You've been outed Ronde... admit it.

What this all shows me is that you buy into the Theocratic Warfar strategy... yes, you would do anything (including lieing on this web-blog) for your religion.

Thank you Ronde for demonstrating (by your actions) what the Theocratic Warface strategy is all about. An example (like yourself) helps to drive home the explanation:
http://www.silentlambs.org/Theowarfare1.htm

btw: Your example above is not what we are talking about. It's outright lieing (like when you lie that Voice of Reason is not Ronde) that we are talking about. It's also telling a "half-truth", which you seem to be a master of.

JoePublish said...

Joepublish stated: "This true-to-life scenario reflects poorly on this so-call 'only true religion'.

Ronde (Voice of Reason and Anonymous) replied: "Then what are you doing to help in the situation? Are you contributing more or in other ways helping those Bethelites and other Witnesses in need?"

Typical response from you Ronde. The GB is never to blame for not helping their own.

I've helped more people than you will ever know - in practical ways too (including monetarily).

So, your diversion tactics don't work with me Ronde. But, one thing I will say, everytime you open your mouth you prove the person that you really are.

JW's is the right religion for you because you LOVE to argue, no matter how silly your responses.

You told me that you get this spirit from watching Rocky movies. I hate to tell you this, but Rocky was created by Satan's world.

Do you see the contradiction in this? I don't think you do and that's why you contradict yourself all over the place. LOL

JoePublish said...

Here's an example of an elder lying on the witness stand... it starts about 4 minutes into the video and it's a whopper of a lie! (Theocratic Warfar in action!)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfDIrPdBQgw

Anonymous said...

"The Watchtower Society is not a multi-billion dollar organization. They own some buildings but that is not cash in the bank."

Newsday, a New York newspaper of record annually publishes a list of the top ten richest companies in New York City. The WTBTS of New York's name has appeared consistently on that list with around $1,000,000,000 annually. It also has the rare distinction of being the only "non profit" organization on that list.

It should be noted that there are hundreds of other Watchtower corporations outside of NYC whose income therefore is not included on this list.

The real estate that the WTBTS owns in Brooklyn Heights has an estimated taxable value of $2,000,000 per year. However, it claims tax exempt status and therefore does not contribute to the cost of municipal services such as roads; hospitals, fire and police.

The Daily News reports that many residents of King's County are thrilled that the WT has sold off so many of its Brooklyn properties, (like the Historic Bossert Hotel once a residence for Bethelites but which as a result of the Society's downsizing is no longer needed), because they will no longer bear the entire tax burden for providing city services to the Watchtower.

Anonymous said...

"top ten richest companies in New York City. The WTBTS of New York's name has appeared consistently on that list with around $1,000,000,000 annually."

And that is a good thing.

"because they will no longer bear the entire tax burden for providing city services to the Watchtower. "


Except that the Watchtower is never a burden on the city.

Anonymous said...

Joe Publisher don't get your shorts in a wad over Ron D. or the Voice. Think about this: If Ron de bush just happened to disappear when the Voice came on line and they are in fact one and the same it's nothing more than the rantings of a single individual and easy to ignore but...

if these two are actually different individuals with the same thoughts then we know that they are getting their info from one entity. I vote for the WTBTS.

Look at what he/they have to say as putting training wheels on your future dealings with JW family; coworkers or in ministry.

Anonymous said...

Here's an example of an elder lying on the witness stand... it starts about 4 minutes into the video and it's a whopper of a lie! (Theocratic Warfar in action!)

Actually, it's not a lie at all. It's another case of the dishonest editing that we saw opposers use earlier in this thread.

All the man said was "We do not use the term 'shunning'. 'Shunning' takes on a very stereotype including throwing family out, tarring and feathering ..."

He did not say that we do not disfellowship people; he said that we don't use the term shunning. Putting it next to a quotation from The Watchtower of 1988, on the other hand, is dishonest. The video certainly looks older than 1988.

Furthermore, even if The Watchtower of 1988 uses the term (and I also found one mention in 1981 I think), I've never heard any Witness use the term shunning with reference to disfellowshipping, and I'm certain I've never used it myself.

So actually the brother told the truth. Did he go on to explain what we actually do? Unfortunately, because of the way the video is edited, we have no way of knowing. But you can be sure of one thing: if what he said next had been unfavorable or embarrassing to Jehovah's Witnesses, it would have been included in the video.

Anonymous said...

Here's an example of an elder lying on the witness stand... it starts about 4 minutes into the video and it's a whopper of a lie! (Theocratic Warfar in action!)

The above comment demonstrates that it is not a lie at all. But even if it were a lie, that would not make it "theocratic warfare". On the contrary, it would have been a violation of Jehovah's Witnesses' standards.

Let's review the evidence:

"Faithful servants of God in modern times heed the Bible’s command to be honest. (Hebrews 13:18) They would never, for instance, lie under oath in a court of law." (The Watchtower, August 15, 2001, page 20)


Moreover, we need to consider whether the person asking for information is entitled to a comprehensive answer. For instance, suppose Manfred [a man whose employer asked him where the other trainees were] had been asked the same questions by an executive of another company. Would Manfred have been obliged to tell him everything? Not really. Since that executive had no right to such information, Manfred would have had no obligation to provide it. Of course, even in this case, it would have been wrong for him to tell a lie. (The Watchtower, February 1, 2007, page 6)

"The faithful witness does not commit perjury when testifying. His testimony is not tainted with lies. " (The Watchtower, November 15, 2004, page 28)

"Jesus did not always disclose the full truth, especially when revealing all the facts could have brought unnecessary harm to himself or his disciples. Still, even at such times, he did not lie. Instead, he chose either to say nothing or to divert the conversation in another direction." (Awake!, August 8, 2008, page 21)

"We must tell the truth to one who is entitled to know, but if one is not so entitled we may be evasive. But we may not tell a falsehood. ... Should circumstances require a Christian to take the witness stand and swear to tell the truth, then, if he speaks at all, he must utter the truth." (The Watchtower, June 1, 1960, page 352)

"Likewise, when a Christian is placed on a witness stand he is obligated to speak the truth if he speaks at all." (The Watchtower, May 1, 1957, page 285)


Thus the assertion that Jehovah's Witnesses are instructed to tell lies in court is itself a lie.

Ronde said...

Well, sorry to let you all down but since football season started, I couldn't bless you all with my presence here.

But I see that there are the same ole mean ones and there are some nice ones here.

But the same old junk is being published here.

So gotta run.

tohsibor said...

Anonymous said...
"Thus the assertion that Jehovah's Witnesses are instructed to tell lies in court is itself a lie."

Of the articles you quoted, you have taken things out of context and have not included all the lines of thought in the articles you quoted. While some of those articles did state *if* a witness were to speak they should speak the truth, what was emphasized in the articles is the choice of not speaking at all and “hiding the truth” to actually be the favored of the two positions that could be taken with the notion of sacrificing oneself for the sake of their brother or the organization.

Watchtower June 1, 1960, page 352:
“As a soldier of Christ he is in theocratic warfare and he must exercise added caution when dealing with God’s foes. Thus the Scriptures show that for the purpose of protecting the interests of God’s cause, it is proper to hide the truth from God’s enemies.
This would come under the term “war strategy” as explained in the The Watchtower, February 1, 1956, and is in keeping with Jesus’ counsel that when among wolves we must be as “cautious as serpents.” Should circumstances require a Christian to take the witness stand and swear to tell the truth, then, if he speaks as all, he must utter the truth. When faced with the alternative of speaking and betraying his brothers or not speaking and be held in contempt of court, the mature Christian will put the welfare of his brothers ahead of his own, remembering Jesus’ words: “No one has greater love than this, that someone should surrender his [life] in behalf of his friends.”

That is how the context of the Watchtower June 1, 1960 page 352 appears. See how cleverly the organization behind Jehovah’s Witnesses places in writing how “the mature Christian” would ultimately make the choice of not speaking at all, withholding the truth and suffer the consequences. Doing so, under a supposedly scriptural backing of Matthew 10:16 and John 15:13, which are also being misapplied here.
The other articles you partially quoted hold a similar if not exact pattern as the aforementioned Watchtower from June 1, 1960. The articles provided by the organization behind Jehovah’s Witnesses may not state a person should lie, but they do promote and encourage “hiding the truth” which of course is the same as lying. You can split hairs regarding the issue, but this is just another example of the double-tongued talk of the Organization behind Jehovah’s Witnesses. “We never said lie”…Right, but you did state to “Hide the truth” from all God’s enemies.

This of course can cause a follower of the organization behind Jehovah’s Witnesses to further reason that God’s enemies include anyone who is not a Jehovah’s Witness. The icing on the cake is the grabbing of scriptures out of context for the alleged support of the organization behind Jehovah’s Witnesses direction.

I have the articles you partially quoted. I encourage all to look up all sources in their original form. For those who have access to the Watchtower Library CD-ROM for the most part it will suffice. However, there are some printings which have been altered from their original writings as well by the organization of that CD-ROM. The best thing and most practical way is to obtain PDF’s of the original articles so there’s no doubt as to what exactly the Organization behind Jehovah’s Witnesses printed and taught to its followers.

In this case, it is ultimately "hide the truth" as needed.

Voice of Reason said...

Robishot talked about Witnesses lying in court and to persecutors.

Instead of complaining about that, why don't you encourage people to stop being mean to us to where we would not be in court or persecuted?

tohsibor said...

Voice of Reason said...
"...why don't you encourage people to stop being mean to us to where we would not be in court or persecuted?"

What I encourage is the taking in of information and knowledge…The facts.

Voice of Reason, I do not know you and certainly not 1 or 1,000 posts on a blog will ever tell me who you truly are and what is your heart’s motivation. Nonetheless, sincerity of heart and an earnest desire does not mean a person or persons are doing the right thing(s) in life.

After the emotions are filtered out, what are left are the facts. Facts regarding what was placed in print and taught to the people who believe and followed the organization behind Jehovah’s Witnesses. Voice of Reason, it appears in many of your posts that you were able to pick and choose what to follow/believe and what to disregard. However, many are taught to see and understand the organization behind Jehovah’s Witnesses to be their mother, and of course Jehovah as their father. Since we cannot physically/literally “hear” directly from the father; the mother, the organization holds the position of supreme authority and God’s mouthpiece when they want to be so. On the other hand, they then wash their hands clean of any responsibility when things go wrong.

People are precious. Feelings are important. And I know many good people and honest hearted people who are Jehovah’s Witnesses. This includes many of my family members and even my wife and me at one time. Is it the friendships, companionships, families within the Organization that you cannot leave? If that is impossible for you or/and others to leave behind for the sake of truth, then you may be better off remaining one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. For me, truth was, is, and will always be the most important thing. I cannot live with myself or a lie for the sake of keeping family/friends. It would’ve killed me from the inside-out.

Information and knowledge are the most important and unbiased things here. It is why the organization behind Jehovah’s Witnesses fears and highly advises against the Internet and higher education. The more you know, the more you research, the more you will see the organizations behind Jehovah’s Witnesses not to be what the claim they are in this world and the life we live.

JoePublish said...

Ditto: "For me, truth was, is, and will always be the most important thing."

Anonymous said...

*** g69 5/22 p. 15 What Future for the Young? ***

"If you are a young person, you also need to face the fact that you will never grow old in this present system of things. Why not? Because all the evidence in fulfillment of Bible prophecy indicates that this corrupt system is due to end in a few years. Of the generation that observed the beginning of the “last days” in 1914, Jesus foretold: “This generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur.”—Matt. 24:34. Therefore, as a young person, you will never fulfill any career that this system offers. If you are in high school and thinking about a college education, it means at least four, perhaps even six or eight more years to graduate into a specialized career. But where will this system of things be by that time? It will be well on the way toward its finish, if not actually gone!"

----------

By the way, the 1969 Awake magazine is not on the WT Library CD-ROM. I had to email a Bethel elder for this electronic copy of the article. The local Kingdom Hall should have the Bound Volume.

----------

This article helped me to realize that I was free to disagree with anything in the literature printed by the Jehovah's Witnesses, and to call it phoney baloney. It was pivotal during my awakening to the truth about Christ and the Bible.

JoePublish said...

Ronde (aka Voice of Reason) stated: "Well, sorry to let you all down but since football season started, I couldn't bless you all with my presence here."

Hi Ronde,

I'm glad you took my advice and looked into the mirror - apparently it helped you to end this charade that you are someone else (aka Voice of Reason).

How does reality feel? Doesn't the truth feel good? It just feels right when you're not trying to fool people all the time.

Anonymous said...

For those who have access to the Watchtower Library CD-ROM for the most part it will suffice. However, there are some printings which have been altered from their original writings as well by the organization of that CD-ROM.

I am willing to stand corrected, but I believe that this is substantially untrue. What is there on the CD that has is different from the printed publication?

Yes, I am aware that an ambiguous phrase was changed from the the January 1, 1989 Watchtower, but that change was made in the bound volumes, too, long before the first CD-ROM came out.

What else was changed? Or is this just another piece of deception, an attempt to undermine the confidence of Jehovah's Witnesses in the Watchtower Library CD?

Anonymous said...

Either they are doctoring the literature, or they are not?

We have a clear example of it.

"You want the truth? You can't handle the truth!"

Anonymous said...

Here is what we DO know. Jehovah's Witnesses print lies.

Here is an example:

"If you are a young person, you also need to face the fact that you will never grow old in this present system of things." (From 1969)

Anonymous said...

The articles provided by the organization behind Jehovah’s Witnesses may not state a person should lie, but they do promote and encourage “hiding the truth” which of course is the same as lying.

OK, if hiding the truth is the same as lying, why don't you tell us your full name, address, home phone number, bank account details, kids' names, etc, etc. Are you a liar if you hide the truth? Or is it just none of our business?

Was Rahab a liar for misdirecting the men of Jericho and saving the spies' lives? Was Oskar Schindler a liar? What about numerous Dutch people who hid Jewish families from the Nazis? They hid the truth. According to you they are all liars.

tohsibor said...

Anonymous said...
"Yes, I am aware that an ambiguous phrase was changed from the the January 1, 1989 Watchtower, but that change was made in the bound volumes, too, long before the first CD-ROM came out."

See, that’s a problem as well. Some may come across some information and dismiss it as no big deal. I have run into that same issue with people who support the organization behind Jehovah’s Witnesses. The focus becomes not on the facts presented, but the overall sincerity or kindness or other positive traits of people. People are not in question, it is the teaching and beliefs people are following.

Anonymous, one example is too many. Again, please research and look up any and all references. See what the truth really is and not the interpretations of one organization which claims to be God’s sole channel of communicating and directing people today.

tohsibor said...

Anonymous said...
"OK, if hiding the truth is the same as lying...Are you a liar if you hide the truth? Or is it just none of our business?...They hid the truth. According to you they are all liars."

It can be and it may be lying when you “hide the truth” depending on the circumstances. Using such an idea or notion as “hiding the truth”, can lead to many ways of implementation. The examples and circumstances you sited have to be viewed in their context. In some instances, is it just concealing information? Yes. In some cases, can it be just keeping what is private as private? Yes.

Not providing my personal information on a blog site and my refusal to do so just because someone asked is certainly not the same as if I was to take an oath in a court of law and told to provide the same information and I refuse to do so.

Nevertheless, the above is just one of the ways that exemplify how the organization behind Jehovah’s Witnesses works at times. Besides going back on previous teachings or flip-flopping on doctrines, they can also once again instruct to do things one way, or/and strongly infer such and then wash their hands clean of the matter stating “We never said that exactly”.
The Organization has certainly used the “hiding the truth” notion in a deceptive way. For further examples of how, locate the pamphlet “Preparing for Child Custody Cases” as utilized by the Organization behind Jehovah’s Witnesses.

Anonymous said...

I have the articles you partially quoted. I encourage all to look up all sources in their original form.

I agree with this, because the articles give a much more accurate picture of our true position than the selective quotes of opposers.

You can read them by clicking here

Anonymous said...

See how cleverly the organization behind Jehovah’s Witnesses places in writing how “the mature Christian” would ultimately make the choice of not speaking at all, withholding the truth and suffer the consequences. Doing so, under a supposedly scriptural backing of Matthew 10:16 and John 15:13, which are also being misapplied here.

I don't think the scriptures are misapplied at all. On numerous occasions, Jehovah's Witnesses have risked their lives rather than give away information that would hurt their brothers.

For instance, take this example:

An elder from the Groningen Congregation, Klaas de Vries, was subjected to cruel, merciless interrogation by the Nazi Gestapo, placed in solitary confinement for 12 days with only bread and water, and then questioned again. With a revolver pointed at him and under threat of death, he was given two minutes to divulge the whereabouts of responsible brothers, as well as other vital information. The only thing Klaas would say was: “You will hear nothing more from me. . . . I will not become a traitor.” Three times he was threatened with the revolver. Finally the Gestapo gave up, and Klaas was sent to another prison. Never did he betray his brothers.

You don't think he was willing to lay down his life for the sake of his friends? I admire his courage and moral fortitude.

Let's look at another example, from the magazines you say you have read:

A WITNESS of Jehovah was going from house to house in Eastern Germany when she met a violent opposer. Knowing at once what to expect she changed her red blouse for a green one in the very next hallway. No sooner had she appeared on the street than a Communist officer asked her if she had seen a woman with a red blouse. No, she replied, and went on her way. Did she tell a lie? No, she did not. She was not a liar. Rather, she was using theocratic war strategy, hiding the truth by action and word for the sake of the ministry.

So, are you saying that she should have given herself up to the police, possibly to be beaten and tortured?

That is what is meant by hiding the truth. Opposers have given it a sense that it was never intended to have.

Anonymous said...

The Organization has certainly used the “hiding the truth” notion in a deceptive way. For further examples of how, locate the pamphlet “Preparing for Child Custody Cases” as utilized by the Organization behind Jehovah’s Witnesses.

I've read it. There was nothing deceptive in it at all.

tohsibor said...

Anonymous said...
"That is what is meant by hiding the truth. Opposers have given it a sense that it was never intended to have."

The Organization behind Jehovah's Witnesses have given it a sense of protecting their Organization.

tohsibor said...

Anonymous said...
"I've read it. There was nothing deceptive in it at all."


You are certainly entitled to your opinion and belief. Furthermore, so are others and everyone interest in the topic of ‘hiding the truth’ should read it and not go by the opinion of either you or me.

Similarly, Jehovah’s Witnesses should not be limited to the interpretation, information, and knowledge provided by the Organization behind Jehovah’s Witnesses on any topic.

JoePublish said...

I agree... read these things yourselves and come to your OWN conclusions.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous, one example is too many.

So, you admit that there is only one example in fifty-seven years of The Watchtower and thirty-seven years of Awake!

That is quite different from what you originally said, though, isn't it?

For those who have access to the Watchtower Library CD-ROM for the most part it will suffice. However, there are some printings which have been altered from their original writings as well by the organization of that CD-ROM. The best thing and most practical way is to obtain PDF’s of the original articles so there’s no doubt as to what exactly the Organization behind Jehovah’s Witnesses printed and taught to its followers.

Now, that implies some sort of wholesale changes from the printed literature to the CD ROM, and, as we have just established, nothing of the sort has happened. You see your credibility is damaged when you make statements like that.

Anyway, let's discuss the "one example" that you believe is "too many".

In The Watchtower of 1 January 1989, the following sentences appeared:

The apostle Paul was spearheading the Christian missionary activity. He was also laying a foundation for a work that would be completed in our twentieth century.

In the bound volume that appeared at the end of the year, the phrase "in our twentieth century" was changed to "in our day."

When a few years later the Watchtower Library CD ROM first came out, it followed the corrected text of the bound volume.

Opposers want us to believe that The Watchtower wanted to prophesy that the preaching work would be over by 2000 - as if such a major change of doctrine would just be slipped in without any explanation at all.

A much more reasonable explanation is that this was simply an infelicitous expression that slipped through the editing process and was corrected in the bound volume to avoid any further misunderstanding about the governing body's position.

When the GB realized the ambiguity, they apparently authorized it to be changed in the volumes. Why shouldn't they? The original phrasing didn't represent the view of the organization anyway.

If they had left it the way it was, opposers would have criticized them for printing something that they knew was inaccurate and did not believe themselves.

I was in the truth in 1989 and I remembered nothing about the matter until I heard about this from opposers maybe seven or eight years later. I recall no discussion of it at the time. No-one I knew thought it was a new point. After all, the work Paul started was being completed in 1989 and that was probably what the original writer meant.

Obviously it gives the wrong impression, and that is why it was changed. But that hardly calls into question the accuracy of the bound volumes or the CD ROM in general. It was, after all, only once in nearly seven decades of information.

If that is the most potent example of dishonesty in The Watchtower then we have nothing to hide.

Anonymous said...

Dude, the stuff they had to change is nothing compared to the stuff they refuse to change, which is utter hogwash.

607, Blood 'Fractions', Higher Education, Shunning

What you DO print is of greater concern to me an most non-JWs.

The occaisonal re-write of history (and yes there are quite a few examples) speak to the reputation of the people writing the literature.

Here's one of the more absurd beliefs.

*** w67 10/1 p. 587 par. 9 Finding Freedom with Jehovah’s Visible Organization ***

"Thus the Bible is an organizational book and belongs to the Christian congregation as an organization, not to individuals, regardless of how sincerely they may believe that they can interpret the Bible. For this reason the Bible cannot be properly understood without Jehovah’s visible organization in mind."

From 125 CE to 1860, how did anyone learn about Jesus? No Watchower magazine, no understanding of the Bible.

Get real.

If the Bible is the word of God, it WORKS when someone reads it. We don't need a human organization to spin it.

tohsibor said...

Anonymous said...
"If that is the most potent example of dishonesty in The Watchtower then we have nothing to hide."

It certainly is not the most potent to me, nor has anyone claimed it to be the most potent example of dishonesty for anyone else. Additionally, what may be considered “potent” for you may mean not a thing to someone else’s beliefs. As this example has shown, you believe and found a way to justify such a change, others may not take to the change as being acceptable.

It also shows the Society has made changes to their past publications. I do not recall a letter being read or information being provided to the congregations of such an (im)”potent” change.

What may be (more) devastating to some is looking up all the references made in the Reasoning Book as published by the Organization behind Jehovah’s Witnesses regarding all the external (Non-Jehovah Witness) publications for the full context of quotes used. Instead of just reading the paraphrasing and selected sentences pulled from the publications sited as done in the Reasoning Book, find those publications and read them in their entirety.
What should be done is for everyone, including all Jehovah’s Witnesses to thoroughly examine the beliefs and teachings they are following and allowing to lead their lives. This includes all available information in all available formats. Not just following or taking in knowledge that one organization claims to be the truth on any given topic, because like you stated there is nothing to hide.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...
"I've read it. There was nothing deceptive in it at all."

You are certainly entitled to your opinion and belief. Furthermore, so are others and everyone interest in the topic of ‘hiding the truth’ should read it and not go by the opinion of either you or me.


Perhaps in that spirit you'd like for everyone's benefit to point to what you consider to be the most deceptive part of "Preparing for Child Custody Cases". Then we can discuss whether it is actually deceptive, as you claim, or not.

Anonymous said...

In Dayton, Ohio about 30 yrs ago. Some of the sisters out in service saw an annointed elderly sister having a meal...at a church! They were so disturbed by that. Saying she was unfaithful. When actually she had no one to assist her with her meals and didn't want to bother anyone. This church didn't ask what her religion was, they just fed her. Instead of going over & offering to take her to lunch with them, they left only to gossip about her. Shame on them! This is typical behavior.

tohsibor said...

Anonymous said...
"Perhaps in that spirit you'd like for everyone's benefit to point to what you consider to be the most deceptive part of "Preparing for Child Custody Cases". Then we can discuss whether it is actually deceptive, as you claim, or not."


My advice is for everyone to read the pamphlet, not to read about Tohsibor and Anonymous discuss about various points from the pamphlet. The better benefit comes not from reading our opinions, but what the pamphlet actually states and for people to make up their own minds.

People should have all information provided to them in its entirety from both inside and outside the Organization of Jehovah’s Witnesses. Once an organization is limiting what you can read or examine, there is something they do not want you to know or discover.

Anonymous said...

People should have all information provided to them in its entirety from both inside and outside the Organization of Jehovah’s Witnesses. Once an organization is limiting what you can read or examine, there is something they do not want you to know or discover.

So if you get divorced, you'll give your wife's lawyer copies of all correspondence between your lawyer and you?

Tell me any organization -- any church, any business, any political party that does not have any confidential, internal documents. Why shouldn't they have them? Just because something is confidential it doesn't mean it's underhanded.

Anonymous said...

anon wrote: "Just because something is confidential it doesn't mean it's underhanded."

To which I would respond, just because something is underhanded, doesn't mean you should say it's not.

As you defend these people, please remember that God knows all things. He doesn't need you to defend him. You are defending some strangers in Brooklyn that don't even know your name, nor do they care what your name is.

tohsibor said...

Anonymous said...
"Tell me any organization -- any church, any business, any political party that does not have any confidential, internal documents. Why shouldn't they have them? Just because something is confidential it doesn't mean it's underhanded.”


Likewise, just because something is confidential it may mean it's underhanded. Personally, I would indeed want to read all the information I can obtain when such an organization makes the claim they are the one true organization and God’s channel of communication.

You’re right though, I can’t tell you any organization – any church, any business, any political party that does not have any confidential, internal documents. Then again, that would be the point. The Organization behind Jehovah’s Witnesses is like any other church or/and any other business organization.

Voice of Reason said...

"Dude, the stuff they had to change is nothing compared to the stuff they refuse to change, which is utter hogwash.
607, Blood 'Fractions', Higher Education, Shunning"

And those are all personal choices, but they just educate people to make better choices.

"From 125 CE to 1860, how did anyone learn about Jesus? No Watchower magazine, no understanding of the Bible."

That is just it.

In that time, people did not know Jesus. That is why it was called the Dark ages. It was not time. The Bible said that in the time of the end, people would know the truth. Thus when the time of the end came, then the truth was preached, and to do so, The Watchtower was a key tool.

"If the Bible is the word of God, it WORKS when someone reads it. We don't need a human organization to spin it. "

Because the Bible works, we have an organization of humans following it and showing that it works. Thus you have it backwards. It is not a human organization, but an organization of humans.

Voice of Reason said...

"In Dayton, Ohio about 30 yrs ago. Some of the sisters out in service saw an annointed elderly sister having a meal...at a church!"

People can make such reports all day long, but the religion of Jehovah's Witnesses is not about reports on how people in it could do better.

The religion is about the religion and it is up to the people to decide to follow it. Your statement shows that you let people stumble you.

Voice of Reason said...

"My advice is for everyone to read the pamphlet, not to read about Tohsibor and Anonymous discuss about various points from the pamphlet. The better benefit comes not from reading our opinions, but what the pamphlet actually states and for people to make up their own minds."

I agree, but I can do one better.

My advice is for people to follow the Bible and to work together and to follow 2 Cor 13:11
"brothers, continue to rejoice, to be readjusted, to be comforted, to think in agreement, to live peaceably; and the God of love and of peace will be with YOU."

Then there is no need for child custody booklets and there would be no divorce.

JoePublish said...

Dear Voice of Reason, I need to talk to one of your other personalities, Ronde.

Hi Ronde!

Anonymous said...

VoR/Ronde/Anon wrote:"In that time, people did not know Jesus. That is why it was called the Dark ages. It was not time."

Your statement is in direct opposition to Scripture. What did Jesus say? Did he predict a total apostasy or did he say that the "gates of Hades" would not overpower his Church? He also said he'd be with his followers "all the days" until the end of the world? (Matthew 28:19-20)

Moreover the Watchtower publications insist that the 'Slave' has existed uninterrupted since 33 CE.

Please instruct us from the Bible. It's the only reliable book we have.

Anonymous said...

Reference: In Matthew 16:18-20, Jesus said that the "gates of Hades" would not overpower his Church.

Voice of Reason said...

"Did he predict a total apostasy or did he say that the "gates of Hades" would not overpower his Church? He also said he'd be with his followers "all the days" until the end of the world? (Matthew 28:19-20)"

Now you are speaking Catholic.

The gates of hades not overpowering the "church" means that Jesus can resurrect them. That's all.

Yes, Jesus would be with his followers.

"Moreover the Watchtower publications insist that the 'Slave' has existed uninterrupted since 33 CE."

No, they, and history does not teach that there have always been an anointed on earth, it is that through the dark ages there were times that there were the wheat class, but they had false beliefs so that they were indistinguishable from the weeds...until the time of the harvest.

Voice of Reason said...

"In Matthew 16:18-20, Jesus said that the "gates of Hades" would not overpower his Church. "

Jesus has no church.

Jesus has a congregation. All of his followers are his congregation.

And the gates of hades does not overpower them because he resurrects them.

Anonymous said...

VoR/Ronde/Anon/JW Apologist/Newbie wrote: "No, they, and history does not teach that there have always been an anointed on earth,"

The Watchtower magazine indicates that the slave has existed, UNINTERRUPED.

---------
*** w81 3/1 p. 24 Do You Appreciate the “Faithful and Discreet Slave”? ***

"Beginning with Pentecost, 33 C.E., and continuing through the 19 centuries since then, this slavelike congregation has been feeding its members spiritually, doing so faithfully and discreetly."
---------

*** w95 5/15 p. 16 par. 5 Part 1—Flashes of Light—Great and Small ***

"Apparently one generation of the ‘slave’ class fed the next succeeding generation thereof."
---------

Anonymous said...

VOR: I posted the comment y'day about the elderly annointed sister in Dayton Ohio. The sisters that told me the story were the ones that saw her! I was there doing visiting friends and of course, we HAD to go out in service, if we wanted to have any fun while we were there. Pay back time. We used to call the brother in charge of everyone turning in their time "The Time Cop", he knew it. He was almost like the gestapo! It was awful. He browbeat you into making a report. So, many, and I know this for a fact, made up stuff just so he'd back off! The story about the annointed sister was true. I was told by the sisters that saw her, so don't assume you know what you are talking about. Because when you "assume" you make an "ass" of "U and Me". Why aren't you out in service or studying, or at a meeting, or conducting a bible study? Why the heck are you on here? If you are such a devoted, good JW you would be doing that. Go do your work. Stop associating with "wicked" ones!

Voice of Reason said...

Someone wrote: "'No, they, and history does not teach that there have always been an anointed on earth,'"
"The Watchtower magazine indicates that the slave has existed, UNINTERRUPED. '
Beginning with Pentecost, 33 C.E., and continuing through the 19 centuries since then, this slavelike congregation has been feeding its members spiritually, doing so faithfully and discreetly.""

I do not see that as a teaching that there have always been anointed on earth. Because it does not say that there was more than one anointed alive at a particular time.

""Apparently one generation of the ‘slave’ class fed the next succeeding generation thereof.""

Apparently, but not a teaching.

Voice of Reason said...

To anon about the anointed sister in Dayton:

Why do you complain about what people do? Just take care of yourself.

And why do you complain about reporting, field service time. Just check the box that says "Yes, I was a publisher during the month".


"Why aren't you out in service or studying, or at a meeting, or conducting a bible study? "

Because there are no meetings now or service now or bible studies now, etc.


"Why the heck are you on here? If you are such a devoted, good JW you would be doing that. Go do your work. Stop associating with "wicked" ones! "


So you admit you are a wicked one? Then you had better change your ways.

I am here to show that Jehovah's Witnesses are not as you all portray because you like to complain about what people are, not what they should be.

Anonymous said...

I cannot add anything to Ronde's comments that will make him appear more dishonest.

Anonymous said...

Then just stop feeding the idiot by responding to him.

You know his answers are inflammatory, of no substance, one liners, just to get you worked up. And he succeeds.

JoePublish said...

Ronde (alias VOR) said, "I am here to show that Jehovah's Witnesses are not as you all portray because you like to complain about what people are, not what they should be."

Okay, I won't complain about what you are (everyone on this web-blog knows) so here's what you should be: "You should be put in a mental ward". LOL Then you can watch Rocky reruns to stir your worldly/fleshly spirit.

Ronde, I notice that you're doing that opposite thing [yet] again. Someone says something and you say the opposite.

So, let's try this exercise yet again. I say "Up", you say... it begins with "D". (Now please don't say that awful word that begins with "Y".)

I hate to keep doing this but you seem to relish this game of opposites. I say game because you think that is all this is - one big game.

Look most of the entries are about the leaders (read Governing Body/F&DS class) - not JW's as individuals. For instance, when they (the GB/F&DS) don't apologize for mistakes in their doctrine, you don't have to take that personally.

Okay, back to the test. I said "Up", now you say _____?

Anonymous said...

do not worry people , you will soon know that Jehova's Witnesses indeed a true organisation. But it will be the hard and the difficult way.

I once opposed them until i became a witness not by force but the word of the truth touched my heart.

1Tim 1:18-20 said...

I know the author of this letter and he would be upset to know that it has been posted to this forum.
As a matter of fact this was sent to only a few individuals and i am upset that it has been taken out of context and placed here.

Voice of Reason said...

"do not worry people , you will soon know that Jehova's Witnesses indeed a true organisation. But it will be the hard and the difficult way.
I once opposed them until i became a witness not by force but the word of the truth touched my heart. "

You are so correct.

Voice of Reason said...

would you expect apostates to honor any confidentiality or to show any honor at all?

Anonymous said...

Ronde wrote: "would you expect apostates to honor any confidentiality or to show any honor at all?"

Actually, as Apostates and ex-JWs, we make up a large, sometimes underground network. We are quite skilled with confidentiality.

More ad-hominem nonsense.

Voice of Reason said...

"Actually, as Apostates and ex-JWs, we make up a large, sometimes underground network. We are quite skilled with confidentiality."

Jesus said not to hide your light, but to shine as illuminators.

Apostates do not shine at all.

J said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
J said...

J said...

Anon you state:
"The WTBTS has sold and is selling the majority of their properties in Brooklyn Heights. The Factory beside the Brooklyn Bridge with the big "Watchtower" sign on it sold for nearly half a Billion"

Anon where are you getting your 'facts'?
A. The Factory Building is not the one with the illuminated sign.

B. I see no articles anywhere indicating that the factory or 25-30 was sold.

Yes the Watchtower has billions but please don't make stuff up when you clearly don't have the facts. If you do have facts please post the link.

Anonymous said...

For the guy who called me a liar:

Google "Watchtower + Brooklyn Heights Real Estate"

http://www.freeminds.org/
history/WTrealestate.htm gives addresses for most of the 34 WT properties for sale or sold in Brooklyn Heights.

Here's one from New York Post (2007):

THE LAND 'LORD' 'WITNESSES' CASH IN ON B'KLYN
May 14, 2007

The Jehovah's Witnesses might be better known for Bibles than buildings, but the religious sect's vast real-estate portfolio in Brooklyn would make even Donald Trump salivate.

The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, the Witnesses' publishing arm, says that while it's not planning a mass exodus from Brooklyn, it is selling six of its 18 [remaining] Brooklyn Heights buildings. Those include four on Columbia Heights, the borough's priciest street, which overlooks New York Harbor and the Manhattan skyline. [Where the Governing Body live as a commune.]

Watchtower owns 30 meticulously kept buildings and three lots in affluent Brooklyn Heights and DUMBO worth hundreds of millions of dollars that brokers say are more valuable than ever with ground breaking this summer on the 85-acre Brooklyn Bridge Park project.

The Witnesses say they are not using an outside agent and haven't set asking prices, but one local broker estimates they can rack up more than $60 million for just the six sites they have announced.
"It's such a windfall of property," said J. Jean Austin of Brooklyn Bridge Realty.

Austin estimated that the largest of the six, the 12-story Standish Arms Hotel building at 169 Columbia Heights, could command $35 million alone.

The Witnesses have been a mainstay in Brooklyn Heights since setting up their world headquarters there in 1909. With a need to house its growing membership, the sect began gobbling up properties, both in the Heights and neighboring DUMBO, in the 1980s and early '90s, when real-estate prices were relatively cheap.

But in 2004, the Witnesses slowly began moving some of their operations north, relocating their Bible-and magazine-printing business upstate to Wallkill. At the same time, the Big Apple's real-estate market was booming - particularly in Brooklyn Heights and DUMBO.
That year, they sold their former book plant at 360 Furman St. for $205 million - more than 50 times the $3.9 million they paid for the 14-story building in 1983, according to records. The site is being converted into a 449-unit luxury-condo complex within the planned Brooklyn Bridge Park.

The Witnesses also made hefty profits last year selling a 76-unit building on Livingston Street for $18.6 million and a 42-unit building on Hicks Street for $14 million.
The buildings for sale include the hotel on Columbia Heights, between Clark and Pierrepont Streets, which is being sold in a portfolio with seven- and four-story apartment buildings on the same street.

Three 19th-century properties - a two-story carriage house on Columbia Heights [where Hayden Covington the Society's lawyer and his family once lived], a four-story brownstone on Willow Street, and a four-story brick house on Willow Street - are being sold separately.

"The Heights has always been a desirable place to live, and Brooklyn Bridge Park will even accent that more," said Richard Devine, Watchtower's property manager.

But he added that the timing of the park's construction "has nothing to do with the sale of the properties."

rich.calder@nypost.com

The GB has convinced JW's that anyone other than itself is lying about the actions of the organization. So brainwashed are its followers that they don't even look up public information before naming others liars.

Voice of Reason said...

"For the guy who called me a liar:
Google "Watchtower + Brooklyn Heights Real Estate""

Why should we care about the real estate matters?