Sunday, September 14, 2008

Abraham To Speak To The World Via Radio

In The Golden Age, Oct. 6, 1926, Rutherford predicted that Abraham would soon speak to the world via radio. He might have been drinking when he wrote it, but you decide.
"The day, therefore, is not far distant when Abraham will stand on Mount Zion and, by means of the radio or even some improved instrument, speak with authority; and his words will be heard by the peoples in every part of the earth. And as he speaks the message from the great Messiah, the King of kings and Lord of lords, all the people who hear and obey shall live and rejoice in the blessings that they have. Seeing, then, that we are at the very beginning of this wonderful time, with confidence it can be said: "Millions now living will never die."

56 comments:

Anonymous said...

Well, what is wrong with that?

The day will come for that.

Shawn said...

Here's what's wrong with that. At that time the Watchtower Society was claiming that Abraham would be resurrected in 1925.

"Therefore we may confidently expect that 1925 will mark the return of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and the faithful prophets of old...."
Millions now Living Will Never Die pg. 89, 90

Not only is the concept of the earthly resurrection of Abraham or anyone else for that matter unscriptural, but placing a date for the event to take place is foolhardy at best and some sort of short-sighted sensational fabrication at worst.

So it's not that "The day will come for that" - because that day has come and gone (by 83 years no less) with absolutely no ancient Israelites starting their own radio programs.

Anonymous said...

What does that have to do with Jehovah's Witnesses of today?
What connects Rutherford of the Millions book with JW's today?

kimmy jo said...

anonymous,
it is called history. history that pertains to your religion. it is relavant to the development of the JW's and who they are today. it IS the story of the birth of the JW's. Sorry, but that's the way it is with everything.

JoePublish said...

Hi Kimmy Jo, I'm alittle suspicious that that anon sounds an awfully lot like Ronde.

steve said...

In that case...What connects Jesus Christ with JWs of today? I mean he was here 2000 years ago...what relevance can his teachings have?

They were still using the 'Millions' slogan well into the latter part of the 20th century.

Anonymous said...

Kimmy Jo, there are those who still want some kind of reparation for slavery to the blacks.

Why should we today have to pay anything to ones who were not part of it?

According to you, all of that is history, history that pertains to this nation.

You say that it is relevant to the development of this nation and who we are today. So a black man can't be president or even a white woman?

I think that people have grown beyond that concept except the drive by media who want to raise issues of debate. That is what they do to get ratings.
This site and your kind are about ratings, not about making things better.

tohsibor said...

"What does that have to do with Jehovah's Witnesses of today?"

I read that statement time and time again when facts about the history of the organization behind Jehovah’s Witnesses are brought up in discussion. It has *everything* to do with Jehovah’s Witnesses today because Jehovah’s Witnesses today support and teach others the doctrines and teachings set forth by their Governing Body.

If you ignore what happened and what was taught 80 years ago, how about 50 years ago? Is that still too long ago? How about 20 years ago, 10 years ago, 5 years ago? What exactly is the time limit in which the history of the organization does not matter for Jehovah’s Witnesses? What is the time limit to which Jehovah’s Witnesses or any other religious organization/sect/cult teachings and beliefs should not matter?

In part, I believe that argument is used to defend the people that belong to Jehovah’s Witnesses. However, that is not the matter at hand. Some may attack the people belonging to the organization, but I know many of them to be the most sincere, honest, devoted individuals alive. Nonetheless, that does not make the teachings of the organization behind Jehovah’s Witnesses the only absolute truth or a “one true organization” worshipping God. Many devoted, honest, and sincere people can be led astray, and having or possessing good qualities does not make their beliefs and teachings accurate or better than another person’s set of beliefs.

If the history of Jehovah’s Witnesses is irrelevant to Jehovah’s Witnesses, do they then have the same view towards other religions? Is the history of other religious organizations irrelevant? Cannot then Catholics, Protestants, Christadelphians or any other religious group make the same claims? Cannot they state, “What does that have to do with (My Religion) of today”?

Anonymous said...

'This site and your kind are about ratings, not about making things better'.

This site is warning people not to become Jehovah's Witnesses. I think that is what is called 'Preventative Medicine'.

tohsibor said...

"Kimmy Jo, there are those who still want some kind of reparation for slavery to
the blacks.
Why should we today have to pay anything to ones who were not part of it?"

You are making a defense with logic that does not fit this discussion. Your line of argument would be appropriate for making a defense against someone claiming that the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses today should make some kind of reparation towards Jehovah’s Witnesses.

Although that may be an interesting topic to debate, that is not the point brought up by Governing Body Letters or kimmy jo. There is no point being made about reparation.

kimmy jo said...

The historical evidence of your religion or any religion is relevant BECAUSE it will either DEFEND or find LIES in the claims that the religion/faith of the JW's is the 'only true faith/religion' or not. This history SHOULD be of great importance to anyone searching for TRUTH. This religion claims they teach Bible TRUTH, rejecting any and all parts of FALSE religion. The HISTORY of this religion/faith PROVES otherwise. This TRUTH cannot be denied.

kimmy jo said...

tohsibor,
I was answering anoys question about what this(Rutherford's prediction) has to do with JW's today.

Jw's today do not know their quirky history that is full of lies, weird predictions and pyramids and currently, the protection of pedophiles, etc...don't forget the sprinklings of pagens, such as wearing a wedding ring, yes, that's pagen! (suprised they haven't taken that tradition away also).
The history is important if you are truely searching for truth, unfortunatly the Watchtower hides, does not truthfully disclose, their past to their followers/JW's.

tohsibor said...

“You say that it is relevant to the development of this nation and who we are today. So a black man can't be president or even a white woman?”

Absolutely, not! Rather what we do gather or say by looking at the development of this nation and examining previous held notions is that teaching and thinking is wrong. Furthermore, for the United States or any country to make a claim that they are the one true government and one way that people should live their lives throughout the entire world, would be quite haughty and not very humble.

For Rutherford (Who was serving as a member of the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses) to make the prophecies he did for the resurrection of faithful ones in 1925 would show him to fall under the warning provided to faithful servants of God in Deuteronomy 18:20-22:

"But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death. You may say to yourselves, "How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the Lord?" If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the Lord does not take place or come true, that is a message the Lord has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him."

A prophet is anyone who makes a prediction or statement about something that is to occur. Both Deuteronomy 18:20-22 and Matthew 24:11, 23-27 warn us of false prophets. How do you identify a true prophet or a false prophet using these verses? The answer, of course, is if what they predict comes true or not.

Anonymous said...

[Why should we today have to pay anything to ones who were not part of it?]

Perhaps because if they had not been kept in bondage to the white master they might have had opportunity to amass a fortune of their own which they might have handed down to their descendants.

tohsibor said...

"tohsibor, I was answering anoys question about what this (Rutherford's prediction) has to do with JW's today."

Understood, kimmy jo. In fact, I thought your point was clear and succinct. However, somehow "Anonymous" turned your response and Governing Body Letters post into a topic of reparation. I was refuting that line of logic.

Shawn said...

"Anonymous said...

What does that have to do with Jehovah's Witnesses of today?
What connects Rutherford of the Millions book with JW's today?"

Well, there are lots of things that connect Rutherford with the JWs of today. At that time JWs believed...

...that Christ's presence would be invisible.

...that 1914 was the beginning of that presence and not the end of 'the times of trouble' as was thought previously.

...that there will be a physical resurrection to earth of the 'faithful men of old'.

You still hold to all of those beliefs, but unfortunately ( I guess) you can't continue to believe that the resurrection will begin in 1925... well, because it plainly was a false prediction.

See, you can't just throw out the embarrassing parts of the legacy left by previous leaders of the Watchtower Society. I know the cognitive dissonance created by the evidence must be painful vis-a-vis the amount of time and energy you've invested in that organization so far... but an uncomfortable fact doesn't make it irrelevant.

Anonymous said...

To all you posters.....

Did you see Oprah today? Did you comprehend the problem of pedophiles in this country and all over the world???

While you whine and complain about some stupid comment made years and years ago, pedophiles all over the world are posting their latest escapades with raping infants, toddlers, preteens and more.

This is a sick and twisted world and it is only getting worse.

You better pray Jehovah's Witnesses are right and that SOON JEHOVAH GOD WILL WIPE THE FILTH FROM THE EARTH.

THAT IS ONE SOLUTION TO JUSTICE IN ITS TRUEST FORM. I pray the end of this system of things dominated by Satan and his demons comes right now. And anyone not wanting to live on a clean earth is welcome to leave.

WALLE said...

Thank you anon.

I had better repeat this, except these apostates are part of the filth, so they need to pray and repent.

You better pray Jehovah's Witnesses are right and that SOON JEHOVAH GOD WILL WIPE THE FILTH FROM THE EARTH.

THAT IS ONE SOLUTION TO JUSTICE IN ITS TRUEST FORM. I pray the end of this system of things dominated by Satan and his demons comes right now. And anyone not wanting to live on a clean earth is welcome to leave.

Anonymous said...

What a loving attitude. He hopes his god will destory millions of children, so he can feel better.

Earth's population = 7 billion

JWs = 7 million

A fart in the wind. A fart in the wind.

Armageddon: Just Around the Corner Since 1874!

When you're an old man, we can discuss this again.

Anonymous said...

Well, if Oprah said it, SURELY it's the Great Tribulation. Maybe she can convince the UN to destroy all religions EXCEPT those fun-loving JWs. Everyone likes them.

WALLE said...

"Armageddon: Just Around the Corner Since 1874!
When you're an old man, we can discuss this again."

Wrong!

Armageddon just around the corner since 96CE.

I am an old man. That is the problem. I want to be young again.

Anonymous said...

Yeah, we have been looking for this glorious day for centuries. The fact is we are closer, not farther away since Jesus talked about this day of Judgement. If Jehovah said it will happen, you can bet your life it WILL happen.....oh, wait....

YOU ARE BETTING YOUR LIFE!

JW's can afford to be wrong on the date, YOU CANNOT! Better get your life in order, Jehovah will act very soon.

Anonymous said...

hello lurkers,
research via Google "Project Blue Beam"
and you will recognize that soon Christ, Muhammad, Buddha, Shiva and others will speak from Sky and they will be seen as hologramm.

The great deceiver will come up and establish the one world religion, Babylon the Great.

Are you curious too how fearful the developments will be?
Or are you convinced that everthing will not change.

The Watchtower will come to the result of his selfish idolatry

Shawn said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Shawn said...

"I am an old man. That is the problem. I want to be young again."

Walle, wouldn't we all like to be in the prime of our life our whole life. Unfortunately, that is not going to happen. You are going to get older and eventually die. I'm sorry I have to be the one to deliver this news, but the sooner you accept it, the sooner you can start living.

=================================

" Anonymous said...

Yeah, we have been looking for this glorious day for centuries. The fact is we are closer, not farther away since Jesus talked about this day of Judgement. If Jehovah said it will happen, you can bet your life it WILL happen.....oh, wait....

YOU ARE BETTING YOUR LIFE!

JW's can afford to be wrong on the date, YOU CANNOT! Better get your life in order, Jehovah will act very soon."

Jehovah never said this would happen. This business about us being in the last days is the pipe dream of a bunch of Second Adventists.

You've been scared by all of those artists' renderings of what Armageddon will look like and think that the rest of us are betting your lives. But fine, let's look at that 'bet' we're all taking.

I'm willing to bet my life that Baal will not take my life if I call him an impotent fool here in this blog... still here, I guess that was a good bet.

I'm willing to bet my life that Thor is a weakling and if he shows up right now, I'm going to put him over my knee and give him a good spanking. If he doesn't like what I'm writing then he can strike me with lightning.... another good bet apparently.

You see not all bets that have two possible outcomes are equally likely to happen. When making a bet involving one's life, it's a good idea to survey the entire picture. Based on the repeated failed prophesies issued in the Watchtower and other publications of the society, the odds are overwhelmingly good that us non-jws are the ones who have won the bet.

Not only that, but you have thrown away a perfectly good life pushing magazines for the Watchtower Society in exchange for the promise of a life in a global park where there are plenty of lions and pandas to pet.

So you see, we've taken the infinitesimally small risk that we are going to be destroyed and actually decided to live our own life while you have handed over your body and mind to a printing house that you believe will give you the best protection from this predicted catastrophe. I will also point out that this printing house that you are a slave of is the one predicting this catastrophe... which is quite convenient for them, isn't it?

Wake up! This is not a dress rehearsal - this is it, the only life you're going to get on this earth. Both you and I will grow old and die. You are not going to live forever. Lions will always think you'd be kinda tasty. Cobras will always bite children who play at their nest. You've traded your life for a handful of magic beans and a good story, it's time to demand a refund.

Anonymous said...

I am glad you recognize that the Watchtower is serving as a faithful Watchman, warning the people earthwide that the end is so close.

Jehovah's witnesses didn't make up Armegeddon, as an exJW you know this is in the Bible. Jehovah's witnesses may have drawn illustration of the destruction of wicked mankind but it is the Bible that gave us that word picture.

I have not given up anything except things that displease Jehovah God. And my life has been better for it. By following the standards set out in the Bible I have avoided all sorts of heartbreak and sorrow. I am happy.

But more than that, I do not have your short sighted view of life and this world. I do hope to live forever on this beautiful earth, as the Bible, from Jehovah, promises. I know this nasty rotten vile system is destined for destruction and that gives me peace. Peace? How can I be happy so many will be destroyed?

JW's did not set the number for how many would be destroyed....THE BIBLE SAID IT!

Just like Jehovah, they would prefer that people choose to make changes in their lives and choose life. Eternal life on a Paradise earth.

So whaaaaaa....Armageddon didn't come when YOU wanted. You are a frustrated individual because things didn't go the way YOU wanted. Well suck it up, you are not in charge, Jehovah God will accomplish His will in His own due time frame, not when all you whiners on this blog want it to come.

Jehovah's witnesses are the messenger, but the message is in the Bible. Why be mad at them for what God had recorded?

Call down Baal, call down Thor but be careful...call down Jehovah God and you may not get the answer you so boldly mockingly request.

The end is coming, and like it or not.......WE ARE CLOSER than ever!

Anonymous said...

To all the bloggers who make the statement that Jehovah's Witnesses look forward to the destruction of so many people, including innocent children at Armageddon....the facts show a statement like this to be without merit. Lies!

The fact that Jehovah's Witnesses are everywhere preaching the Good News to anyone who will listen shows they do not want any to be destroyed. They reflect the attitude of their God Jehovah.

Since we know our God Jehovah is a loving and faithful God, we know he will exercise justice and anyone who deserves to live will be preserved alive. We leave that decision up to Jehovah and Christ Jesus, they are the judge of mankind.

What Jehovah's witness look forward to is a cleansed earth where there is peace and no more filth. (By the way, Oprah did not proclain the start of the Tribulation; she highlighted how sick this world is by showing us the FACTS and demonstrated WHY the earth needs to be wiped clean.)

JW's do not look forward to anyone BEING DESTROYED.....THAT IS WHY WE ARE STILL KNOCKING ON YOUR DOORS.

Shawn said...

Actually, I agree that the Watchtower has been printing that the end would come on particular dates... which turned out to be false prophesies.

It's also true that the Bible speaks of Armageddon, but it does not point to our day as when it will occur. In fact there's not reason to believe it is anything but allegorical.

My view of the world is anything but short-sighted, since there is no reason to believe that the current system will be going any time soon. I don't 'wait on Jehovah' to do something about serious issues that affect the world.

When you say "I know this nasty rotten vile system is destined for destruction and that gives me peace" do you mean you feel a sense of peace thinking about the new-born babies that were born on the morning of the day of Armageddon who will be destroyed? This 'nasty rotten vile system'... see how they have you thinking? Everyone who isn't dedicated to the Watchtower Society is 'nasty rotten vile'. You know what that is called? Exclusivism.... and it's what cults use to keep members. A normal religious organization would not have any trouble with you moving to another similar organization as long as you stayed in that same religion. Because it is the belief system that matters, not membership in an organization. For example if you were a Christian then you could move from one church to another and still be a Christian.

However cult leaders will tell you can only be "saved" (or can only be successful) in their organization alone. No other organization has the truth, all others miss the mark. So it is not the belief system that decides your future, but it the belief system AND your membership with that particular group.


The cult leaders need to make you believe that there is no where else you can go and still be saved, and if you ever leave the "one true church" then you are going to hell. This is a fear based control mechanism designed to keep you in the cult. It also gives the cult leaders tremendous power over you. If you really believe that leaving the group equals leaving God (or means you are leaving your only chance to succeed in life), then you will obey the cult leaders even when you disagree with them instead of risking being kicked out of the group. Exclusivism is used as a threat, it controls your behavior through fear.


Be very suspicious of any group that claims to be better than all the others. A religious group may say that other groups following the same religion are OK, but they are the ones who have a better grasp of the truth and they are superior to the rest. This is often just a subtle version of exclusivism.


This is one of the practices that cults are often very deceptive about. For example, first off they may give you the impression that they think you are a true Christian, Buddhist or Muslim and it's not until later that their true position is revealed.

"By following the standards set out in the Bible I have avoided all sorts of heartbreak and sorrow. "

This is another fallacy propagated by the Watchtower Society... the notion that if you weren't a jw, you'd be some kind of drug dealer or prostitute - a wretch who would eventually die in obscurity with no one who loves them. This is just not the case. There are countless kind and moral people out there who reject the apocalyptic rantings of the Watchtower Society. These people are actually not anxiously awaiting the mass-destruction of almost all of humanity. By the way, people who aren't mentally ill don't look forward to the murder of billions of people.

I'm not an exjw because Armageddon didn't come when I wanted it to... I became an exjw when I realized how they have been lying to all of us for over a century. There was no way I could support such a dishonest organization.

And just to get your goat and prove that Jehovah does not back the Watchtower's predictions - If the Watchtower is right about how close the end of the system is, I challenge Jehovah to strike me dead.

The reality is, if God is on anyone's side, it's mine. I do not stay quiet while the Watchtower Society makes a fool out of him with their false prophesies.

In any event, I'm still here... and I'll be here tomorrow too. Armageddon will not come in your lifetime, no matter how much you'd like to see innocent humans slaughtered in unprecedented numbers. I hope you live a long life here on earth and I hope you'll remember our conversation as you approach your natural end and think that it was actually a good thing that God hasn't killed so many innocent people.

Shawn said...

"The fact that Jehovah's Witnesses are everywhere preaching the Good News to anyone who will listen shows they do not want any to be destroyed."


That's the point! People aren't 'filth' just because they don't believe the Bible chronology of the Watchtower Society. Christ never said that we needed to belong to an organization to benefit from His sacrifice. The Watchtower Society does not have the market cornered on holiness like they like to claim. The Watchtower Society is not God's sole channel of communication. In fact, given how often they've been wrong, not only would I say they are not on the right channel, their receiver's unplugged.

tohsibor said...

"To all the bloggers who make the statement that Jehovah's Witnesses look forward to the destruction of so many people, including innocent children at Armageddon....the facts show a statement like this to be without merit. Lies!"

While many Jehovah's Witnesses, and I'll go out on a limb and say all Jehovah's Witnesses do not state directly they look forward to the destruction of many people, including innocent children at Armageddon, the facts show they are taught by the Society that the majority of the world will be destroyed and that they are the only ones who have any scriptural hope for survival.

***
The Watchtower, September 1, 1989, p. 19: "Remaining Organized for Survival Into the Millennium":
"Only Jehovah's Witnesses, those of the anointed remnant and the "great crowd," as a united organization under the protection of the Supreme Organizer, have any Scriptural hope of surviving the impending end of this doomed system dominated by Satan the Devil. (Revelation 7:9-17; 2 Corinthians 4:4)"
***

So if you're taught the above and know such information is being provided by the Faithful and Discrete Slave Class of Jehovah’s Witnesses and this is the message the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses say is the truth, then all others who are not Jehovah's Witnesses including children will be destroyed. Such teaching is not found in the Bible.

The Bible does indicate that all follower’s of Christ who come to him, not an organization will be saved. Remember the question asked is not “To what” but “To whom”. The whom is Jesus Christ. Not a religion, not an organization has the sayings of everlasting life, only Jesus. [John 6:68] And Jesus’ words are exclusively in the Bible. His words are not the Faithful and Discrete Slave Class of Jehovah’s Witnesses or a Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witness. *All* Christians must be Faithful and Discrete in caring for the Masters belongings.

Another article from the Faithful and Discrete Slave Class, as approved by the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses states the following:

***
Our Kingdom Ministry April 1997, page 3 says under the subject 'Directing Students to the Organization Behind Our Name':
"One of the questions that he will be asked during the baptism ceremony is: "Do you understand that your dedication and baptism identify you as one of Jehovah's Witnesses in association with God's spirit-directed organization?"
***

The Organization behind Jehovah's Witnesses takes their diverging path from Biblical Christianity further in the above Kingdom Ministry that instead of baptizing people as Jesus Instructed in the name of the father, son, and Holy Spirit (Matthew 28:19), the Organization behind Jehovah’s Witnesses substitutes the Holy Spirit with God’s spirit-directed organization.

No Christian salvation is obtained or lost though an organization according to the Bible – No matter how much the Organization teaching and interpreting of scriptures want it to be so. The Bible shows that salvation is in Jesus alone.

Jehovah’s Witnesses make up less than 0.1% of the world’s population. The other 99.9% of people on the earth are not Jehovah’s Witnesses [Using rough numbers of ~7 million JW and ~7 billion for global population]. The question is have you honestly and sincerely looked at all other faiths and beliefs without the use of the Watchtower Bible Track Society’s influence?

james said...

Didn't the WT use the illustration of a house infested with pests when talking about armageddon? Obviously the pests represent non JWs. Jehovah destroying the wicked on earth was like someone exterminating pests that have infested their home. Nice.

Anonymous said...

"Yeah, we have been looking for this glorious day for centuries."

Do you have a better solution?

" The fact is we are closer, not farther away since Jesus talked about this day of Judgement. If Jehovah said it will happen, you can bet your life it WILL happen.....oh, wait....
YOU ARE BETTING YOUR LIFE!"

And apostates will lose.

"JW's can afford to be wrong on the date, YOU CANNOT! Better get your life in order, Jehovah will act very soon. "

Good post. Apostates bet their life and they lose.

james said...

'Apostates bet their life and they lose' We'll see. Time will tell. When i left the jw's i remember thinking i'm betting my life on being right about leaving, but at that stage the lifetime of mind control hadn't completely gone. 2 years on, it's not a gamble leaving the jw's, it's obviously the right decision, but that's how i feel from the outside of the org looking in. When you're in it you obviously are affected by the brain washing. Shawn, i have to say your posts on this subject were excellent.

Anonymous said...

Shawn said:
"wouldn't we all like to be in the prime of our life our whole life. Unfortunately, that is not going to happen. You are going to get older and eventually die. I'm sorry I have to be the one to deliver this news, but the sooner you accept it, the sooner you can start living."

Well, that sucks. What's the point of anything. Life's a bitch, then you die.

Jw's have something better.

Anonymous said...

"To all the bloggers who make the statement that Jehovah's Witnesses look forward to the destruction of so many people, including innocent children at Armageddon....the facts show a statement like this to be without merit. Lies!"

What is an innocent child and what is a guilty child?

Voice of Reason said...

Shawn said:
"Actually, I agree that the Watchtower has been printing that the end would come on particular dates... which turned out to be false prophesies."

No, they are not prophesies at all. They were just looking to certain sign posts, time indicators. Though the Bible does not specifically state that at the end of those times, something would happen, calculating the 6000 years of human history is based on the Bible's chronology record.

People have calculated that long before the Watchtower."

And it does not make them prophesies.

People just bring this as an attack against the Watchtower because they have this mistaken idea that the Watchtower is bad.

People need to get a life.

Voice of Reason said...

Shawn said:
"That's the point! People aren't 'filth' just because they don't believe the Bible chronology of the Watchtower Society."

If there were such a thing.

However people are filth if they do not become Christians or if they are then they don't fight against it.


" Christ never said that we needed to belong to an organization to benefit from His sacrifice."

Where do people ever get the idea that an organization is a bad thing? It is not a bad thing. It is a very good thing.



" The Watchtower Society does not have the market cornered on holiness like they like to claim. "

No, but Jehovah's Witnesses do because we do something about it.

"The Watchtower Society is not God's sole channel of communication. "

Of course not, there are 7 million JWs not working there that are the channel. The Watchtower Society only prints information from the overseers to the rest of the flock. They are that channel. But the flock is the channel to the world of what God wants them to know.
Are you part of this channel?

berty said...

"Jw's have something better."

But this is a lie. Thousands of JW that were hoping not to die have been now dead for decades.

And the new "moto" says OK we will go to the new system by the Underground. In this case also those who were unbilievers and died they will be resurected. So all this preaching work was in vain and they were preaching lies to people.

Voice of Reason said...

Toh said:
"the facts show they are taught by the Society that the majority of the world will be destroyed and that they are the only ones who have any scriptural hope for survival."

And that is a problem... how?

"The Bible shows that salvation is in Jesus alone. "

Define that for real life, not just words.

"The question is have you honestly and sincerely looked at all other faiths and beliefs without the use of the Watchtower Bible Track Society’s influence? "

It is Tract Society, not Track Society.

And Yes, I have, at least the ones that came to MY door.

Voice of Reason said...

James said:
"Didn't the WT use the illustration of a house infested with pests when talking about armageddon? Obviously the pests represent non JWs. Jehovah destroying the wicked on earth was like someone exterminating pests that have infested their home. Nice.
"

The point is to stop being a pest.
The pests are anyone destructive. It can apply to JWs too.

Voice of Reason said...

James said:
"'Apostates bet their life and they lose' We'll see. Time will tell. When i left the jw's i remember thinking i'm betting my life on being right about leaving, "

Well, time won't be needed. Apostates already lost.

" 2 years on, it's not a gamble leaving the jw's, it's obviously the right decision, but that's how i feel from the outside of the org looking in. When you're in it you obviously are affected by the brain washing."

There is no brain washing. The exjws are the ones that are brainwashed. They can't think for themselves. They just have the herd mentality.


Shawn, i have to say your posts on this subject were excellent. "

Anonymous said...

Shawn is to JWs what Dooku is to Jedis.

Voice of Reason said...

Berty said
""Jw's have something better."
But this is a lie. Thousands of JW that were hoping not to die have been now dead for decades."

Yes, but we still have something better than you have. We have Jesus which is able to bring them back to life.

"And the new "moto" says OK we will go to the new system by the Underground. In this case also those who were unbilievers and died they will be resurected. So all this preaching work was in vain and they were preaching lies to people."

The Bible says that there will a resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous. But that means the ignorant ones. I am not talking about ignorant in the case of the apostates here who knew Jesus but rejected him, but the ones who never knew Jesus.

Anonymous said...

Hahahahahah.

JWs have a monopoly on Jesus?


Hahahahahahah.

Anonymous said...

Feels good to be an apostate....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1L8l3LrzLA

You apologists should try it, you might like it.

Shawn said...

"The Bible says that there will a resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous. But that means the ignorant ones. I am not talking about ignorant in the case of the apostates here who knew Jesus but rejected him, but the ones who never knew Jesus."

==================================

First of all, the Bible does not say there will be an earthly resurrection, That's a Watchtower concoction. Second, I don't recall anyone here rejecting Jesus. We're rejecting the Watchtower Society's teachings, not those of the Christ.

This does illustrate the Watchtower Society mentality... If one is not baptized in association with the Watchtower Society, then that one is not in union with the Christ.

Anonymous said...

It's funny. If a person who was never baptized presents the EXACT same evidence, he is not an apostate, because he never really knew Jesus.

Many so-called 'Apostates' were baptized as children. Yet, they are somehow different from the ones that didn't get baptized.

JWs view God as an unreasonable tyrant in Heaven, playing a game of Gotcha!

"Sorry, you were baptized at 12, so you're wicked, not ignorant!"

Jesus was baptized at 30, and I gotta tell you, that seems like a pretty good minimum age.

I'm being way too logical here. JWs also believe Jesus will slit the throats of tens of millions of little children, just around the corner.

Bloodthirsty tyrant?

Voice of Reason said...

Shawn said:
"First of all, the Bible does not say there will be an earthly resurrection, That's a Watchtower concoction. "

Then where is it going to be? Not in heaven as those ones are to be kings and priest and unrighteous are not there. And your disagreement does not make it a "Watchtower concoction.".

Yes, there is an earthly resurrection. That is the point of Jesus, to remove sin. All those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out.


"Second, I don't recall anyone here rejecting Jesus. We're rejecting the Watchtower Society's teachings, not those of the Christ."

If you followed Jesus, you would not be so negative toward his other followers. When you leave his other followers you are leaving him. Jesus' followers are not divided. There is no anti-Watchtower group following him and a pro-Watchtower group following him. There is one group that call themselves Jehovah's Witnesses.

"This does illustrate the Watchtower Society mentality... If one is not baptized in association with the Watchtower Society, then that one is not in union with the Christ."

No, you illustrate the ignorant apostate mentality.

There is no such thing as "baptized in association with the Watchtower Society". That is fiction that you made up, or rather you followed others who made that up because you apostates do not have an independent thought.

Anonymous said...

Dear Voice of Reason:

You stated at least two things in your last comment which are not true.

One, you assert that we are attacking Jesus. Really? You knock on people's doors to tell them their church is run by the Devil and that Jesus does not know them. Pot, meet Kettle.

Two, the next assembly you attend, please listen to the two questions that are asked of the persons about to get baptized. These are not secret questions. The organization is most certainly in the mix. The baptism questions were changed in the 1980s. JWs are no longer baptized "in the name of the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit".

We can have civil discussions. Let do so. Let's speak truth as Christian men. Let's hide in the dark and distort what is true.

"The truth will set you free." - J. Christ

Shawn said...

"Then where is it going to be? Not in heaven as those ones are to be kings and priest and unrighteous are not there. And your disagreement does not make it a "Watchtower concoction."."

See, there's that Watchtower thinking again. The whole idea that only the little flock go to heaven and who will be kings and priests... is another Watchtower concoction. Additionally, I don't call it a Watchtower concoction because I disagree with it, I call it that because they are the ones who dreamed it up.

"Yes, there is an earthly resurrection. That is the point of Jesus, to remove sin. All those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out."

That doesn't mean it will be on earth. Much of the Bible describes heavenly events in earthly terms to make comprehension easier.


"If you followed Jesus, you would not be so negative toward his other followers. When you leave his other followers you are leaving him. Jesus' followers are not divided. There is no anti-Watchtower group following him and a pro-Watchtower group following him. There is one group that call themselves Jehovah's Witnesses."

I assert that Jehovah's Witnesses are following watchtower Society doctrine and not at all what Jesus taught. The Watchtower Society has mislead millions of honest-hearted people into a controlling, invasive cult. Jesus did not teach that one must be a member of a group to be His follower. Your rhetoric about a 'anti' and a 'pro' Watchtower group is evidence that you are not thinking along the lines of the first-century Christians. The first-century Christians did not call themselves Jehovah's Witnesses. So by your statement "There is one group that call themselves Jehovah's Witnesses" do you mean to tell all of us that those early Christians, including the apostles, were not following Christ?

No, the reality is that you have embraced the concept of exclusivism ( see my previous post to this thread ) that cults use to control members. You believe that if you are not in line with "God's spirit-directed organization" then you will be destroyed at Armageddon. You believe that Jehovah's Witnesses are the _only_ ones who have ( the loaded language term ) 'the truth'. It is in fact, not the truth, but a complicated deception that holds you in fear of divine retribution.

I've already proven that you are in fact baptized into the organization on another thread which I'm sure you've contributed to, but the repetition will be helpful to you...

*** w85 12/1 p. 20 Do You Honor Jehovah With Your Valuable Things? ***

Do You Honor Jehovah With Your Valuable Things?

“Dear Brothers: How are you? I want to be a missionary when I grow up. Please use this dollar to help missionaries.” So wrote three-year-old Shelley. Her childish scrawl was interpreted at the bottom of the letter by her mother.

More informally, Stephen wrote: “Dear Bible and Tract Society. I’m 8 years old. I live at 89 St. I hope you are having a fun time. I’m giving you one dollar for the Kingdom Hall fund. Send me a letter back soon.”

WHY did these youngsters write to the Watchtower Society’s headquarters? Because they wanted to honor Jehovah by using what they had in furtherance of his praise.
***

So sending money to the Watchtower Society is equivalent to honoring Jehovah. It doesn't say that 'God's organization' encourages Jehovah's Witnesses to also donate to the Watchtower Society which is a good friend of God's organization.

Moving on to a more direct link between baptism, god's organization and the Watchtower Society, we read from the Watchtower...


*** w06 4/1 p. 24 ‘Go and Make Disciples, Baptizing Them’ ***

Identified as One of Jehovah’s Witnesses

11 The second question asks the candidate, first of all, if he understands that his baptism serves to identify him as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. After undergoing immersion, he becomes an ordained minister who bears Jehovah’s name. This is both a great privilege and a serious responsibility. It also puts the one baptized in line for eternal salvation, provided he remains faithful to Jehovah.—Matthew 24:13.

...

14 The second question also reminds the candidate of his responsibility to work with Jehovah’s spirit-directed organization. We are not alone in serving God, and we need the help, support, and encouragement of “the whole association of brothers.” (1 Peter 2:17; 1 Corinthians 12:12, 13) God’s organization plays a vital role in our spiritual growth. It provides a wealth of Bible publications that help us to grow in accurate knowledge, to act wisely when we are faced with problems, and to cultivate a close relationship with God. Like a mother who makes sure that her child is well-fed and cared for, “the faithful and discreet slave” provides an abundance of timely spiritual food for our spiritual advancement.—Matthew 24:45-47; 1 Thessalonians 2:7, 8.
***

Notice that "The second question also reminds the candidate of his responsibility to work with Jehovah’s spirit-directed organization." and "God’s organization plays a vital role in our spiritual growth. It provides a wealth of Bible publications..." It doesn't say that God's organization is friendly with the Watchtower Society and approves of what it prints... it says that God's organization _is_ that one doing the printing. The position is completely unambiguous.

So ~sigh~ not only am I not 'ignorant' about the doctrine of your religion, I know it better than you do.

Anonymous said...

Regarding the baptism 'into the organization', here are the references.

------------

*** w85 6/1 30 Subjecting Ourselves to Jehovah by Dedication ***
The first question is:
On the basis of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, have you repented of your sins and dedicated yourself to Jehovah to do his will?
The second is:
Do you understand that your dedication and baptism identify you as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses in association with God’s spirit-directed organization?
Having answered yes to these questions, candidates are in a right heart condition to undergo Christian baptism.

*** w87 4/15 12 Gaining Peace With God Through Dedication and Baptism ***
Recently the two questions addressed to baptismal candidates were simplified so that candidates could answer with full comprehension of what is involved in coming into intimate relationship with God and his earthly organization.

*** w89 1/15 13 What Prevents You From Getting Baptized? ***
for the first of two questions the speaker asks them is: “On the basis of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, have you repented of your sins and dedicated yourself to Jehovah to do his will?” Only if the individual answers in the affirmative and also understands that his dedication and baptism identify him as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses in association with God’s spirit-directed organization can he acceptably undergo water immersion.

*** knowledge 176 18 Make It Your Aim to Serve God Forever ***
Baptism ‘in the name of the holy spirit’ signifies that the baptismal candidate
recognizes Jehovah’s holy spirit, or active force, as God’s instrument for carrying out His purposes and for empowering His servants to do His righteous will in association with His spirit-directed organization.

Voice of Reason said...

anon said:
"One, you assert that we are attacking Jesus. Really? You knock on people's doors to tell them their church is run by the Devil and that Jesus does not know them."

Our knocking on their doors and their being there sitting on their rumps behind them shows that we know Jesus.

"Two, the next assembly you attend, please listen to the two questions that are asked of the persons about to get baptized. "

I listened to a baptism talk yesterday.

"These are not secret questions. The organization is most certainly in the mix."

Of course. Since one person baptizes another, there is definitely an organization. But it is not the Watchtower Organization.

" The baptism questions were changed in the 1980s. JWs are no longer baptized "in the name of the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit"."

The meaning of the questions did not change. They were changed because stupid apostates claimed that they are not accountable to the congregation. Well the questions are just disclaimers to make them know that they are. But nothing changed.

Voice of Reason said...

Shawn said:
"See, there's that Watchtower thinking again."

One can not communicate with you if all you do is to state that.

Sorry, but you are done.

Shawn said...

Awww, I'm far from done! I've just started and I reveal the truth about the Watchtower Society's cult to as many people as I can. It's not the 1800's anymore. People have access to the actual truth through the wide-spread availability of information. There's still hope for you anon. You can still live a life worth living while you're still alive... Because you won't get another.

Voice of Reason said...

Shawn - "Awww, I'm far from done! I've just started and I reveal the truth about the Watchtower Society's cult"

FYI, you are incapable of having a conversation because everything a JW says you answer with "That is what the Watchtower teaches". You demean people by calling them and what they say a cult.

Thus it is impossible to take what you say seriously and it is impossible to have a conversation with you. So done.

The Pastor said...

Voice of Reason wrote: "So done."

Don't give up, man. Keep knocking on doors. You'll eventually find somebody that will fall for it. I did.

Jesus' message was refreshing and many people were naturally drawn to him. The JW message requires two books and months of love-bombing at the local Kindgom Hall, with the subtle pressure of conformity being applied from all sides.