Wednesday, September 10, 2008

Does The Governing Body Communicate With The Dead?

The Revelation book commenting on Rev.7:13-14. States:

“Yes, that elder could locate the answer and give it to John, this suggests that the resurrected ones of the 24 elders group maybe involved in the communicating of divine TRUTHS today” (page 125.) 

Is this not communicating with the dead! or put another way ‘receiving messages from the spirit world’?

“Another way that Satan misleads people is through mediums.  A medium is a person who is able to receive messages from the spirit world.  A great many people, including mediums themselves, believe that these messages come from spirits of the dead…The demons actually pretend to be spirits of the dead”. (Watchtower booklet: Spirits of the dead, can they help you or harm you? page 15)

50 comments:

Anonymous said...

Interesting take, GBL. It's merely another example of the Society's double-standard in terms of theology and doctrine. What's good for the goose is never quite good for the gander.

In my studies since I left the organization, I have compiled a list of major discrepancies in their teachings; the common thread is that the core of their beliefs are no more based on a consistent study of the Bible than those they visit at the door on Saturday morning.

When it comes to rationalization of "truth" or "new light", the friends have been trained to believe just about anything printed in the WT, no matter what mind-bending lack of logic that underpins it. Any amount of reasoning with them goes unheeded as they choose to put blinders on and plow ahead toward their goal of everlasting life.

I've never doubted their sincerity. But I do doubt their willingness to reason on the scriptures and use the Word of God to free them from their bondage. Their indoctrination, and fear of subsequent sanctions if they choose to walk away, is second-to-none in the world of religious cults. Hats off to the Society if that is their goal. They have succeeded brilliantly!

hudsoncarl said...

first of all, your headline's misleading; you mean the faithful and discreet slave, not the governing body. secondly, you're being disingenuous. why not take this a step further and say that prayer is communication with the spirit world? the point about mediums is clearly about communication with demons and not about communication with resurrected humans, i.e. the anointed. please get it straight.

Ronde said...

Ah, they are not dead if they were resurrected.

Think about it.

Jesus is not dead.

Carl you are so right.

Anon, you are wrong. That is not a double standard.

In the kingdom, new scrolls will be opened and the 144,000 will be ruling and thus communicating and they clearly will not be dead.

Anonymous said...

Ronde and Carl both prove another of my contentions; the massive use of semantics in the organization. One day it's back-call, the next it's return visit. District Assembly to District Convention. Vacation Pioneering to Auxiliary Pioneering.

You ask them if they believe in immortality of the soul, they say no out of one side of their mouth while teaching that the 144,000 souls are immortal.

They don't believe in predestination, yet they freely admit that Jehovah can look into the future at any given point and see where each of us will be.

They say it's the "slave" that feeds the flock, yet all decisions end with the twelve (or so) that comprise the governing body. They take no vote of the remnant on organizational issues. They do not consult them in any way. I know, as one of my family members currently partakes.

They say we should stay politically neutral, yet they form a decade-long alliance with the "image of the beast".

They say to "Get out of Babylon the Great" and to not do business with religious organizations, while they sell Kingdom Halls to churches left and right.

They say that we should give willingly and not under compulsion, but I dare you to come shy of ten hours a month for a few months in a row and see what visit you'll get.

They say you'll die at Armageddon for missing meetings, but cannot find such a scripture in the Bible.

They say it is proper for illegal aliens to become approved baptized members of the congregation while professing to be an organization that prides itself on being "law-abiding".

They claim to hold strictly to the laws and principles of the Bible, while DFing those who question and doubt their doctrine. The Bible encourages Christians to doubt and question and test everything that men tell us, though this is considered "apostasy" by the GB.

My list could go on, but there is no need. Hudsoncarl and Ronde and their ilk are wallowing in blindness and seem to enjoy it. I for my part will continue to pray they come to their senses.

Nathan said...

Man I can’t stop laughing for 10 minutes now. That posting was so funny GBL! Every time when I think you can’t do worse, you pull out such a ridiculous, but incredibly funny posting and prove that you are more of a joker than anything else (you want to cut a smile on our face, right?)

That was only topped by your congenial fellow poster with the “famous” name anonymous!
One of his best in my opinion is this one: “You ask them if they believe in immortality of the soul, they say no out of one side of their mouth while teaching that the 144,000 souls are immortal.” Rofl, that shows complete lack of understanding. Too funny!

Or that one: “They say you'll die at Armageddon for missing meetings, but cannot find such a scripture in the Bible.” Complete nonsense! Maybe you should go and look for Scientology! Anonymous is also a highly skilled joker.

Anonymous said...

Nate, Nate, Nate. I find it interesting that rather than refute my points (any of them), you ROFL. What are you, 12? Yet while you laugh in ignorance of your own religious beliefs, others pity you and pray for you and hope you get out while you still have some semblance of a sense of humor, not mention human decency.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that either Nathan has never fully studied the religion of his birth (even from the pages of his own books) or that he is currently studying and just hasn't run across the hardline brothers who will soon set him straight. Either way, his ignorance is as unbelievable as is his reaction to scriptural logic.

Open up your Bible, bro. You may just learn a little.

james said...

It's all very well saying that annointed ones in heaven communicate divine truths, or that the GB are directed by Jehovah receiving new light when the time is right, but how does this actually happen? Do the GB here voices? If not, what actually happens when this information from above comes down to them?

kimmy jo said...

Sounds spiritistic doesn't it?

That's a good question, how do the messages from heaven come down to the GB? (Maybe the we-ge board.)

How do they know that the demons have not intercepted the messages?

Nathan said...

Ano, Ano, Ano, I find it interesting that you don’t seem to know the basic concepts of discussion. What else is someone supposed to do, when one hears a joke, if not to laugh? I regret, that I have to inform you, that you did not present any point! All you presented were mere assertions, nothing more. Do you know the difference between assertions and serious arguments? You need to provide rationale for your assertions to give them any weight. If I would refute every senseless and wrong assertion I hear I would not be able to do anything else. If someone tells me that the sky is usually red, I would not refute this with physics arguments. I would just say, “No! Open your eyes and see that you are wrong.” Two points can be seen from this comparison. The first is that the assertion that the sky is red is obviously wrong. Everyone who is able to see can recognize that. The second point is that no rationale was provided for the assertion that the sky is red. Why should I provide rationale to show that the sky is blue?

If you want serious discussion, offer your points with reasoning and logical arguments. If you just present lurid assertions you cannot expect to get serious answers that are filled with arguments refuting your point. In order that you can be refuted you have to provide arguments that can be falsified. In any other case a simple “that is wrong” on my part is really enough!

Another point is, that your assertions do not at all represent my beliefs! Especially they do not represent my RELIGIOUS beliefs, because some of your assertions would organizational and not religious!

The “others will pray for you” (and similar statements) issue really makes me tired. It is always the same of some people who want to put themselves on a pedestal.

If I may engage in the same shallow psychological analysis as you did, I would say that you either do not know JW from the inside, or that your ego was hurt within the congregation and so you quit being a JW and now you try to build up your ego again by railing against JW.

One more thing, because I came across that one several times here already: People here really seem to be afraid of elders and circuit overseers etc. Lines like “the hardline brothers who will soon set him straight” are a good hint for that, and also for hurt egos. Don’t be afraid, everybody can have his own opinion, nobody is going to be thrown out if he has his own opinion on some matters, as long as he does not treat it as it was the only truth.

All in all if you want to see my reaction to “scriptural logic” I recommend that you present such! Mere assertions are no scriptural logic and do not deserve more than I answered. So maybe you should think about your own ignorance before criticising others.

Finally a good advise that I can only return to you: “Open up your Bible, bro. You may just learn a little.”

Ronde said...

"Ronde and Carl both prove another of my contentions; the massive use of semantics in the organization. One day it's back-call, the next it's return visit. District Assembly to District Convention. Vacation Pioneering to Auxiliary Pioneering."

No, there is a difference between changing things and your not getting things correct. Since you can't specify things correctly, how can you be trusted for any info?

"You ask them if they believe in immortality of the soul, they say no out of one side of their mouth while teaching that the 144,000 souls are immortal."

The soul is not immortal, but the 144,000 are granted immortality when they are resurrected. Simple doctrine.

"They don't believe in predestination, yet they freely admit that Jehovah can look into the future at any given point and see where each of us will be."

No, not true. We determine where each of us will be. That is not predestination as if God destines us.

"They say it's the "slave" that feeds the flock, yet all decisions end with the twelve (or so) that comprise the governing body. They take no vote of the remnant on organizational issues."

The "slave" is not the anointed, it used to be but there aren't enough left. The slave is the entire feeding program.

"They say we should stay politically neutral, yet they form a decade-long alliance with the "image of the beast"."

FYI, Jehovah's Witnessed did not do that.

"They say to "Get out of Babylon the Great" and to not do business with religious organizations, while they sell Kingdom Halls to churches left and right."

Nothing wrong with that. It is a building. What they do with it is their business.

"They say that we should give willingly and not under compulsion, but I dare you to come shy of ten hours a month for a few months in a row and see what visit you'll get."

I am consistently under 10 hours, purposely, and I get no visit. I want one.

"They say you'll die at Armageddon for missing meetings, but cannot find such a scripture in the Bible."

We do not teach that. We teach that missing meetings will make you a bad person, such as you all, and then you die at armageddon.

"They say it is proper for illegal aliens to become approved baptized members of the congregation while professing to be an organization that prides itself on being "law-abiding"."

I disagree with calling people illegal aliens. The whole thing is wrong. There should not be such borders. But anyway, there are many reasons that people transverse them.

"They claim to hold strictly to the laws and principles of the Bible, while DFing those who question and doubt their doctrine. "

No, people are not DFd for questioning and doubting.

"The Bible encourages Christians to doubt and question and test everything that men tell us, though this is considered "apostasy" by the GB."

Not true also.

"My list could go on, but there is no need. Hudsoncarl and Ronde and their ilk are wallowing in blindness and seem to enjoy it. I for my part will continue to pray they come to their senses. "

Your list shows your ignorance of the religion.

Ronde said...

If you would listen to the convention you would know the answer, kimmy jo

Anonymous said...

Nathan,

So now praying for others is an action borne of arrogance? Slow down and breathe. You're not making sense.

The trouble is, I DO know you're beliefs, assuming you are a Witness. Why? Because the organization controls your beliefs. Simple, huh?

But it seems you want some real meat, some real scriptural logic to chew on. Here goes...

The Society defines apostates (Flock book, p. 94) as: "Persons who stubbornly hold to and speak about teachings contrary to Bible truth AS TAUGHT BY JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES." Which means that you as a JW must conform your beliefs to theirs, or else keep silent.

However, this definition gets a little dicey when you look into the Bible and how Jehovah views questions and doubts and murmuring.

Luke 19:45, Mark 11:15, Matthew 21:12 all show Jesus (our Model to follow closely) as one who stood up against the leaders of Jehovah's organization.

Acts 6:1-7 show that Jehovah actually blessed the first-century Christians BECAUSE of their murmuring.

You still with me, Nate?

Acts 17:11 has Paul describing the Boreans as "noble-minded" because of their refusal to take Paul's words at face value. They only followed along as long as Paul himself remained true to the inspired Word.

Finally, 1 John 4:1 commands us as Christians to "test every inspired expression". Interesting, huh, how the Bible clears up a false teaching of the Society. According to the Bible it is not only permitted to doubt and question our leaders, it is encouraged and even commanded that we do so.

As a retort to your idea that: "Don’t be afraid, everybody can have his own opinion, nobody is going to be thrown out if he has his own opinion on some matters, as long as he does not treat it as it was the only truth", you're just plain wrong. I do not speak as one who knew JWs, I was one for over three decades. I know them from the top down, inside and out.

Here's a test for your theory that you're allowed to have your own opinions: Go up to any elder in the Hall and tell him where you found the Bible is contrary to any Society teaching and that your opinion is now different from theirs. Show him from the Bible that we're commanded to test the words of the governing body and everyone else. Then tell him you'll still be a JW, but you'll stick to your own opinion on any matter you find the Bible doesn't support.

WARNING: Don't do what I just suggested unless you're prepared to give up your family and friends. Trust me.

Remember, Nate, the Bible is your friend. Read it without filters.

Nathan said...

Yo Ano,

I slow down, sit down and read properly! I said “lines” like that are mostly used to make the author look better. I never said that praying for others is an action of arrogance! You’re trying to get your cookie too cheap!

The trouble is, you DON’T know my beliefs since you are not me and don’t know me! Quite simple, right? Right! Did JW control YOUR beliefs? Pure you! Maybe my hurt ego theory fits quite well,

You consider your next paragraphs to be “real meat”? Man these are the very basics of ex-JW and I would be disappointed if you would have not presented those. This is kind of minimum configuration! But if you want to present real meat maybe you should do some digging.

Well the emphasis should be on BIBLE TRUTH in your quotation, but never mind. If you want to be a JW you don’t have to sync your beliefs. If you think different on a certain topic write a letter, a question of readers etc. The only thing you are not supposed to do is to promote controversy within your congregation. And this simply makes sense.

ad Luke 19:25, Mark 11:15, Matthew 21:12: Did you list all three narrations of the same account to make it look more? They don’t prove any of your points. Your assertion that Jesus “stood up against the leaders of Jehovah's organization” is not backed through them. First of all those selling in the temple were not the leaders of the Jews. Secondly, what they did was NOT lawful! So Jesus showed respect for the law when he drove them out! What he did was perfectly just! Obviously you completely misunderstood those verses!

ad Acts 6:1-7: Again this scripture does not fit your point! This account as only got to do with organizational things, not with teachings! This is a big difference! Further if you see that something unfair happens it is your perfect right to go to an elder and tell him. Nothing wrong with that! Nothing will happen to you!

ad Acts 17:11 and 1 John 4:1: Well John tells us what he meant with inspired expressions! He said that every inspired expression that confesses the Lord is from God! JW believe in Jesus and his ransom! Following what John said, their expressions regarding that come from God. But again as I already said there is nothing wrong with checking teachings! Of course not all teachings of JW will be right by now, but they are improving. As I said, as long as you don’t stir up your congregation, nothing is wrong.

I am plain wrong, because your personal experience is different? Of what statistical relevance is your personal experience? True, of none! My personal experience is contrary to yours, so we end up on par! This is why personal experience alone is of no statistical relevance”

It is not my theory! It’s the truth! Again your last paragraph is kind of classical. Just throwing around stereotypes! As I said you are and were afraid, nothing more. I already had several discussions with elders, circuit overseers and others and had different opinions. And what happened? Nothing! Even a member of the GB had no problem to answer some of my, well at least tricky questions. As long as you show that you want to follow the Bible it is no problem to have different opinions on minor questions. Of course if you doubt that Jesus died in behalf of us or other major points you will have a problem, but that is just logical.

Man I hope you can do better than that! You behave like a teacher throwing around instructions, but what you call “real meat” is nothing more than milk. Give yourself another try if you still want the cookie!

Anonymous said...

ronde

your still an idiot.

Anonymous said...

Nate,

You seem to like the word ego, which is what you seem to have plenty of. I also find it interesting that you didn't refute any of the scriptures with scripture, just your parroting of the "slave".

If you want to play the role of a broken record and disseminate WT doctrine without biblical support, be my guest. The first-century Christians didn't.

And since you couldn't even answer the "milk" question without resorting to cheap insults, I guess anything deeper than Matthew 24:45 would be a stretch.

Your quote: "Did you list all three narrations of the same account to make it look more?" It's called scriptural support; even the WT falls back on it from time to time.

Your quote: "Your assertion that Jesus stood up against the leaders of Jehovah's organization is not backed through them. First of all those selling in the temple were not the leaders of the Jews. Secondly, what they did was NOT lawful!" And what they were doing was sanctioned (allowed) by the leadership. What's the difference again?

Again, I could go on. But what's the use? You aren't willing to use the Bible without WT backing and I'm not willing to spend my time arguing human-originated religious philosophy with someone who shouldn't even be posting here.

Which brings up a good point: Test your "free opinion" theory by informing your elder body that you are posting regularly on an "apostate" website. But do so at your own peril.

So Jesus showed respect for the law when he drove them out! What he did was perfectly just! Obviously you completely misunderstood those verses!

frank said...

all of you are wasting your time answering this guy.
by the way they never read any letters saying that the hours for Regular Pioneer will change to 50.
no need to answer your craps

/http://www.rightwingwatch.org/2006/11/robertson_says.html

check this out you might be surprised.

chocolatepuddingeyes said...

Frank, there's an extra slash mark in your link.

Here's the correct link:

http://www.rightwingwatch.org/2006/11/robertson_says.html

Nathan said...

Yo Ano,

seems that I touched a critical point when making assumptions about your ego. Well I don’t like that word better than others, but it mire or less jumped put of your postings.

You said: “. I also find it interesting that you didn't refute any of the scriptures with scripture”. In your opinion, what Scripture should I quote to show that you used some scriptures that do not fit your point? That is not impossible. I can only use scriptures if you present scriptures that have at least anything to do with your point! Your point was: “how Jehovah views questions and doubts and murmuring”. Then you quoted the three Bible accounts that all tell us about the occasion when Jesus threw out the vendors of the temple. The verses and your point are absolutely disjoint. Jesus was not questioning the law, he did not doubt it and he did not murmur against it when he threw them out!

Jesus corrected this very gross injustice. He definitely was allowed to do so for several reasons. He showed that what they did was not lawful, he was the son of God and he could see the condition of the hearts of the people.

So we end up that your verses could not be used for your assertion. And regarding your last posting: we indeed see a difference! What they did was not lawful and they did it on purpose and Jesus knew that beyond any doubt because he knew their hearts. Again, I never said that JWs can’t write a letter talk to elders, CO, etc. if they think something needs a new interpretation. But if you ano can not see the hearts like Jesus can and if you are not God’s son who judges all people, maybe you should abstain from throwing tables figuratively.

I indeed answered your “”milk” question” already in my last post. But if you don’t like the truth, that is up to you. And would you please show me my “cheap insults” of the kind you didn’t use before? Who loves in the glasshouse…

Do you really think that scriptural support means to quote three Bible books on the same account, when the account consists of a historic even alone? You can’t be serious about that. If you quoted just one of those, we all would have known what account you had in mind. Nobody would have doubted that the account could really be found in the Bible. Nobody would have doubted that Jesus did really throw them out. The second and the third scripture quotation did not add any quantum of information. So where was the “scriptural support”?

Scriptural support means, that you back an assumption with fitting texts from the Bible (which I asked you to do but you didn’t). And it means to use several texts that contain DIFFERENT information to solve a certain matter. You did neither!

You could go on? Maybe before that you should wait a bit and try to get your assumptions regarding your already quoted texts right! Could you please show me where I used the Bible with WT backing? And could you please tell us in detail what you think that this phrase means?

Regarding our last paragraph (because I think the quotation of my paragraph in the end was not your purpose): again this is so typical and stereotype! First people here say that talking to elders because of a different opinion will end up in being kicked out, which is nonsense. Then they say that JW should not post on this site. This is not only lame it is also wrong.

I am not associating with apostates here. Of course you can’t recognize that, because you did not think about it carefully. If I meet an apostate in the ministry or somewhere else, what will I do? I will preach to him the good news, or if I know that he is an apostate I may refute his arguments. Nothing wrong with that! Further here are several people online that are by no means apostates. Preaching to them is what we were commanded to.

I don’t really understand you ano! First you try to jump into a discussion only with assertions, backed with nothing (you still did not provide rationale) and then two postings later you try to get out of a discussion again with a few simple tricks (that don’t really work). What do you want man?

hudsoncarl said...

nathan...spot on!

Nathan said...

thx carl, good to have some people here who judge according to arguments, not according to their personal wishes.

Anonymous said...

Yes, Nathan, they certainly are funny because they do not have an idea of what they are saying.

Anonymous said...

James, does it really matter?

Afterall, since it is called the Watchtower, it means that they Watch what happens and observe the prophesies in the Bible and how it applies.

james said...

I think it matters. Imagine the scene... the GB are meeting together, how do they receive new light from Jehovah? Do they here his voice? What about a message from one of the annointed in heaven, how is this received? Do they here a voice? How would a JW explain this? It's all very well saying things like the 24 elders are communicating divine truths, but how? I think it matters because the GB/FDS make these claims with no evidence and if you really think about this claim, isn't it a bit weird?

Ronde said...

anon said:
"The trouble is, I DO know you're beliefs, assuming you are a Witness. Why? Because the organization controls your beliefs. Simple, huh?"

That shows you don't know our beliefs. The organization controls nothing. That point is even made in Next Sunday's Watchtower study that we have free will.

And the organization is 7 million of us.

"The Society defines apostates (Flock book, p. 94) as: "Persons who stubbornly hold to and speak about teachings contrary to Bible truth AS TAUGHT BY JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES." Which means that you as a JW must conform your beliefs to theirs, or else keep silent."

As taught by Jehovah's Witnesses means what all 7 million teach, not just what the GB teaches.

And that only applies in the congregation.

"I do not speak as one who knew JWs, I was one for over three decades. I know them from the top down, inside and out."

No, if you were one for 30 years, you would still be one and you would not be disagreeing with me.

"Go up to any elder in the Hall and tell him where you found the Bible is contrary to any Society teaching and that your opinion is now different from theirs."

I don't find that there are any but in a couple of occasions and I have told them that and there are no problems.


" Show him from the Bible that we're commanded to test the words of the governing body and everyone else. Then tell him you'll still be a JW, but you'll stick to your own opinion on any matter you find the Bible doesn't support."

I do that.

"WARNING: Don't do what I just suggested unless you're prepared to give up your family and friends. Trust me."

Well, you are wrong. That does not happen.

Anonymous said...

Ronde said
"
As taught by Jehovah's Witnesses means what all 7 million teach, not 1just what the GB teaches."

Sigh...show me just one thing written in the books or WT NOT written or approved by the governing body.

You really really are an idiot...

Ronde said...

anon said
"Again, I could go on. But what's the use? You aren't willing to use the Bible without WT backing"

How do you know that?

" and I'm not willing to spend my time arguing human-originated religious philosophy with someone who shouldn't even be posting here."

The only one doing that is GBLetters.

"Which brings up a good point: Test your "free opinion" theory by informing your elder body that you are posting regularly on an "apostate" website. But do so at your own peril."

the answer is simple, stop being apostate and everyone is happy.

Nathan said...

is that really all ano?

You said: "You really really are an idiot...". And you say that others use cheap insults? Nice joke!

Ronde said...

Anon said:
"Sigh...show me just one thing written in the books or WT NOT written or approved by the governing body."

The Nov 1967 W QfromReader about organ transplants.

Golden ages about vaccines.

james said...

Any JW's got any suggestions as to exactly how the 24 elders communicate divine truths with the FDS on earth? Any suggestions as to exactly how the GB receive new light from Jehovah? Do they meet together, pray and then here a voice?

Anonymous said...

Ronde getting it wrong again

The Nov 1967 W QfromReader about organ transplants.

Golden ages about vaccines.

Its ALL from the committee made up of the self appointed GB.

steve said...

James...good point,one I have often wondered about myself. How DO the GB receive their special direction from God?

The WT is just full of generalizations, it rarely gives us the nuts and bolts, how something happens in practical terms.

chocolatepuddingeyes said...

A lot of the inner workings are kept secret from the rank and file. If it weren't for the insiders or former insiders writing books or posting information, we'd never have learned that doctrine is decided by a 2/3 majority vote, for instance.

J said...

Anonymous,
Thank you for your point:
“You ask them if they believe in immortality of the soul, they say no out of one side of their mouth while teaching that the 144,000 souls are immortal.”

JW's teach the ressurection which is the same thing just spun different. This has always bothered me even when I was a JW.

You also mention their:
"Massive use of semantics"
Amen. All these JW Apologist go nuts using them. ronde being the worst. It reminds me of my favorite Seinfeld quote when the phone repairman is talking to Elaine:

"Look, I work for the phone company. I've had a lot of experience with semantics, so don't try to lure me into some maze of circular logic."

or one could say:

Look, I was a JW once. I've had a lot of experience with semantics, so don't try to lure me into some maze of circular logic.

And those those JW Appoligist:
"Faithful and discreet slave, not the governing body"

Dude do you guys have any idea who the faithful slave is? What part of the GB does not even know who they are don't you get? If you show me an connection of how the 144,000 left on this earth share they God given thoughts with the GB and the GB listens I will send you each a certified check for $250.00 and go to the Kingdom Hall again.

J said...

BTW sorry for the poor grammer on that last post. Anyhow my point stands. Show me a link. I know a few anoited ones. So what do they have to do with that 'spiritual food'.

While you are at it. Which part of the 'faithful slave' is so down on education? I have some facts to share with them.

Ronde said...

James asked
:"Any JW's got any suggestions as to exactly how the 24 elders communicate divine truths with the FDS on earth? Any suggestions as to exactly how the GB receive new light from Jehovah? Do they meet together, pray and then here a voice? "

Yes.

The subject is finding out the identity of the great crowd, and they found that out because people were learning the faith and they were not being anointed and they wondered why.

Ronde said...

Anon said:
"Ronde getting it wrong again"

What did I get wrong?

"The Nov 1967 W QfromReader about organ transplants.
Golden ages about vaccines.
Its ALL from the committee made up of the self appointed GB."

No, those were not by any governing body or self appointed. The GA was written by Clayton Woodworth and the 1967 QfromReaders was by Fred Franz who was appointed VP of the Society as there was no GB then.

Ronde said...

chocopud said:
"A lot of the inner workings are kept secret from the rank and file. If it weren't for the insiders or former insiders writing books or posting information, we'd never have learned that doctrine is decided by a 2/3 majority vote, for instance.
"

You mean you didn't know that?
How else are things to be done? Unanimously?

In every body of elders is everything unanimous?

People all have different viewpoints.

Ronde said...

J said:
"You ask them if they believe in immortality of the soul, they say 'no' out of one side of their mouth while teaching that the 144,000 souls are immortal.”
JW's teach the ressurection which is the same thing just spun different. This has always bothered me even when I was a JW."

No, it is not the same thing. Immortality of the soul means that the soul is inherently immortal or unable to die. That at death, the person's soul goes to heaven or hellfire.

We teach that the soul dies at death. That any further life is granted by God through a resurrection. The 144,000 are resurrected to spirit life and they are granted immortality meaning they are unable to die after that.

Ronde said...

J ignorantly stated:
"Which part of the 'faithful slave' is so down on education? I have some facts to share with them. "

None of the FDS are down on education. We are cautioned about university which is not education but an expensive product that they sell.

james said...

OK, Ronde has given his answer to my question, thank you Ronde. Any other JW got any suggestions as to exactly how the 24 elder class in heaven communicate with the F&DS on earth? Also exactly how the GB receive new light from Jehovah?

J said...

Ronde,
"None of the FDS are down on education. We are cautioned about university which is not education but an expensive product that they sell."

For your information that "expensive product" doubles your wages. It also contributes to your ability to do your job if you apply yourself.

That "expensive product" trains doctors to save lives.

That "expensive product" trains engineers to make cars, roads, airplanes, internet devices and the like.

For many that "expensive product" is free if they accept it. Often young JWs turn down free education based off of what is printed in the Watchtower and Awake magazine.

james said...

I asked, "Any other JW got any suggestions as to exactly how the 24 elder class in heaven communicate divine truths with the F&DS on earth? Also exactly how the GB receive new light from Jehovah?" No response. I suppose some teachings of the Watchtower are too ridiculous even for JW apologists to try to explain.

chocolatepuddingeyes said...

James,

I found this link to be very interesting:

http://www.freeminds.org/women/millerite_franz.htm

james said...

Thanks Choco. It's always interesting to read the experiences of someone on the inside, as it were, as it reveals the reality behind the myth. All this talk about 'new light', viewing the societies literature as letters from Jehovah and 'food at the proper time'. The reality is they're just books & mags written by men. This fact being proved by the constant need for changes and adjustments in what's being written. Thanks again.

Voice of Reason said...

"I asked, "Any other JW got any suggestions as to exactly how the 24 elder class in heaven communicate divine truths with the F&DS on earth? Also exactly how the GB receive new light from Jehovah?" No response. I suppose some teachings of the Watchtower are too ridiculous even for JW apologists to try to explain. "

Ah, duh.

It is called the Watchtower for a reason. Because they watch what is happening.

It is not that the GB receives new light. There has not been any new light.

Voice of Reason said...

There is nothing interesting on freeminds. His is the closest of minds.

james said...

As i said, the society make fantastic claims like the 24 elders in heaven communicate with the GB, but it's fantasy. No evidence. VoR said "It is called Watchtower for a reason. Because they watch what is happening". Anyone can do that, there's nothing special about the WT watching what is happening, as seen by their track record of getting things wrong. VoR said "It's not that the GB receives new light. There has not been any new light". Well i agree but it's not a very good defense of their claim to receive new light from Jehovah, but to be expected.

james said...

VoR said "There is nothing interesting on free minds". Wrong again. I found the link to be very interesting thank you very much.

Voice of Reason said...

James said:
"VoR said "It is called Watchtower for a reason. Because they watch what is happening". Anyone can do that, there's nothing special about the WT watching what is happening,"

Well, where is everyone else that is watching? Back in the 1870s the caption was of the scripture that told of the watchman watching.

" as seen by their track record of getting things wrong."

They have a great track record. But then at least they have a track and a record. No one else can say anything. As far as getting things wrong. Why do you focus on that rather than on the good?

" VoR said "It's not that the GB receives new light. There has not been any new light". Well i agree but it's not a very good defense of their claim to receive new light from Jehovah, but to be expected."

They don't have such a claim, and it does not matter anyway.

james said...

At least by your comments you seem to admit that the revelation book is wrong when it comments on Rev 7:13-14.