Sunday, September 14, 2008

Is The Watchtower Truly Politically Neutral?

The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society has lobbyists in Washington.
The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society joined the United Nations as an NGO.
The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society is heavilly linked to The Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe. (Click on the link provided below and scroll down to numbers 102, 103, 248, and 314 in the blue boxes to the left of the organization's name. http://www.osce.org/documents/odihr/2006) (A list that describes the position of the osce.org: http://www.osce.org/odihr/13421.html)
Germany: Jehovah's Witnesses claim (falsely) that thet were the only "religion" that opposed the Nazi political party. How can I oppose a political party and still be indifferent?
Greece: Jehovah's Witnesses lobbied every politician in Greece and gave them all a copy of the "Proclaimer's" book. How do I lobby a politician with indifference?
United States: Jehovah's Witnesses hold the record among "religious" groups for political involvement with the United States government at the Supreme Court level with the goal of influencing the application of law. Is influencing the application of law "dealing with the affairs of government" or not?
United States: The Watch Tower Society owners were found guilty of political crimes and the president and all the directors were sent to Federal prison. May political crimes be considered political activity?Jehovah's Witnesses are a political organization called "The Theocracy". Rutherford was an attorney and a politician and immediately after he stole the company, he consistently used the Watch Tower venue as a political resistance movement involved in every political issue from Prohibition to national defense. (Just a funny side note: Judge ("Booze") Rutherford used to preach that prohibition was from Satan The Devil!)
The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society staged a protest in March in France because of France's decision to tax their assets. (It didn't work. France is still taxing their assets.)
It makes one wonder why they are always advocating that witnesses should "wait on Jehovah" to solve problems and makes things right, when the above demonstrates that they themselves do not believe in "waiting on Jehovah". Hypocrites!
Before anyone says that the Watchtower used the courts to advance freedoms for all peoples, while it is true that they did not wait on Jehovah to correct things, scores of other people and organizations also used the Courts to advance freedoms for all people. Among them were:
Larry Flint, Hustler Magazine
Hugh Hefner, Playboy Magazine
Luther Campbell, Rapper
Howard Stern, Talk Show Host
Imus, Talk Show Host
and many, many others

59 comments:

kimmy jo said...

"The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society staged a protest in March in France because of France's decision to tax their assets. (It didn't work. France is still taxing their assets.)"

France is smart. The US should tax their ass too. (assets) After all they are organized as a Corporation, of course, under they protection of the religious umbrella.
Very politically involved. No differant than any other Corporation that is trying to press ahead for it's benifit.
Only those who have real human problems such as rape, molestation or another loss of some traumatic type must 'wait on Jehovah' especially if the problem is within the congregation.

hudsoncarl said...

Being neutral is not the same as availing yourself of legal avenues

Didn't the apostle Paul claim Roman citizenship in requesting an audience with Caesar?

Didn't Nehemiah ask for letters from King Artaxerxes to authorize the temple work?

Anonymous said...

They tango with the Beast when it suits their needs.

When the Beast is against them, they play the role of professional victims.

I would like to see more governments recognize them as the destructive, mind-controlling cult they are. If the elected officials knew more about the emotional and spiritual abuse endorsed by Watchtower, they would be less tolerant, in my opinion.

My goal is simple, here. If I can prevent even one person from getting baptized, I will be happy. This cult has ruined tens of thousands of lives, including the lives of many of my friends and family members.

I will never be involved with any group that practices information control and doesn't allow legitimate dissent.

kimmy jo said...

"My goal is simple, here. If I can prevent even one person from getting baptized, I will be happy. This cult has ruined tens of thousands of lives, including the lives of many of my friends and family members.

I will never be involved with any group that practices information control and doesn't allow legitimate dissent."

anony, I second that, well said.

Ronde said...

"The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society joined the United Nations as an NGO."

No they didn't. The records states that it was one person that did that, not even the president of the Society did that.

"Greece: Jehovah's Witnesses lobbied every politician in Greece and gave them all a copy of the "Proclaimer's" book. How do I lobby a politician with indifference?"

So what? What is wrong with educating them. I placed magazines with congressmen, and gave magazines to a governor.



"Before anyone says that the Watchtower used the courts to advance freedoms for all peoples, while it is true that they did not wait on Jehovah to correct things, "


FYI, that is waiting on Jehovah as that was Jehovah's way of fixing things.

I see nothing wrong with the claims that you make against the Watchtower Society, but then again whether the Watchtower is politically neutral or not does not reflect on Jehovah's Witnesses.

Ronde said...

Kimmy Jo.

You are speaking stupidly.
France can't do that because of freedom of religion.

And JWs are not polically involved. churches are.

Ronde said...

Carl, don't confuse them with logic and facts from the Bible. That will blow their circuits.

berty said...

Ronde,
please stop your delirium and take your toy-buckets to play at another seaside. You are just indescribable.

frank said...

Hugh Hefner, Playboy Magazine

you call that freedom now I know why you don't love the truth
know I know why you keep yakkee yakk and never stop.

Shawn said...

The difference, hudsoncarl, is that the apostle Paul did not write letter after letter denouncing the Roman government as 'the wild beast' and then secretly join the Roman Senate! This is exactly what the Watchtower Society has done with the UN NGO membership.

A person or group can 'avail themselves of legal avenues' without being hypocritical.

Anonymous said...

Shawn, there is and was nothing wrong with being an NGO of the UN.

And the a person's filling out of the form did not make the Watchtower Society a member. And that is not related to Jehovah's Witnesses as the Watchtower Society is not the master of the faith of Jehovah's Witnesses anyway. So why does any of that matter?

kimmy jo said...

Sorry ronde,
France IS taxing their assets.
And
They are politicaly involved when it is to their benifit/profit as a Corporation, rather than 'waiting on Jehovah' as they preach to everyone elese.

J said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
J said...

Hudsoncarl states:
"Didn't Nehemiah ask for letters from King Artaxerxes to authorize the temple work?"

Yes he also held a position as cup bearer to the king. Daniel held office as did the three Hebrews.

So there is nothing wrong with getting involved in politics scripturally. Jesus and his followers did not get involved with Rome because the kingdom of the Jews stood as an enemy of Rome; Socialism vs. Capitalism if you will. Granted Jesus was not a socialist but very similar.

The point is this. Watchtower / Jehovah's Witnesses condemn involvement in politics yet the headquarters gets involved in it.

Just like owning stock in war machines. Rank and file can't but Watchtower Bible and Tract Soc. does. The problem is that they are hypocrites.

Ronde states:
"No they didn't." Ronde if all JW's smoked weed you would say well that's just some JW's the president doesn't smoke weed. If the Watchtower Magazine said smoke weed, you would say that article was just written by a man. Don't you see what you are doing? Avoiding the facts.

Shawn said...

Blogger Anonymous said...

Shawn, there is and was nothing wrong with being an NGO of the UN.

And the a person's filling out of the form did not make the Watchtower Society a member. And that is not related to Jehovah's Witnesses as the Watchtower Society is not the master of the faith of Jehovah's Witnesses anyway. So why does any of that matter?"

Here's the problem. First of all it was not 'a person' that joined the UN NGO program, it was the Watchtower Society. Secondly, here are the requirements for consideration in the program:

"The NGO must support and respect the principles of the Charter of the UN and have a clear mission statement that is consistent with those principles;
• The NGO must be recognized nationally or internationally;
• The NGO should operate solely on a non-for-profit basis and have tax-exempt status;
• The NGO must have the commitment and the means to conduct effective information programmes, with its constituents and to a broader audience about UN activities;
• The NGO should have an established record of continuity of work for a minimum of three years and should show promise of sustained activity in the future;
• The NGO should have a satisfactory record of collaboration with UN Information Centres/Services or other parts of the UN System prior to association;
• The NGO should provide an audited annual financial statement, conducted by a qualified, independent accountant;
• The NGO should have statutes/by-laws providing for a transparent process of making decisions, elections of officers and members of the Board of Directors.

...An NGO that meets the established criteria should send an official letter from its headquarters to the Chief of the NGO Section, Department of Public Information, expressing interest in association with DPI. The letter should state the reasons why the organization seeks such association and should briefly describe its information programmes. This letter should be accompanied by at least six samples of recent information materials produced by the applying organization. Letters of reference from UN Departments, UN Programmes and Specialized Agencies, and/or UN Information Centres and Services (UNICs and UNISs) will greatly enhance consideration of the application."

So the Watchtower Society while printing that the UN is the 'wild beast', was also promising to cooperate and promote the activities of the UN - what hypocrites!

Thirdly, assuming you are baptized, you are absolutely related to the Watchtower Society.

*** w85 6/1 30 Subjecting Ourselves to Jehovah by Dedication ***
The first question is:
On the basis of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, have you repented of your sins and dedicated yourself to Jehovah to do his will?
The second is:
Do you understand that your dedication and baptism identify you as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses in association with God’s spirit-directed organization?
Having answered yes to these questions, candidates are in a right heart condition to undergo Christian baptism.

That's right, JWs are baptized into "God's spirit-directed organization"


*** w87 4/15 12 Gaining Peace With God Through Dedication and Baptism ***
Recently the two questions addressed to baptismal candidates were simplified so that candidates could answer with full comprehension of what is involved in coming into intimate relationship with God and his earthly organization.

*** w89 1/15 13 What Prevents You From Getting Baptized? ***
for the first of two questions the speaker asks them is: “On the basis of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, have you repented of your sins and dedicated yourself to Jehovah to do his will?” Only if the individual answers in the affirmative and also understands that his dedication and baptism identify him as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses in association with God’s spirit-directed organization can he acceptably undergo water immersion.

*** knowledge 176 18 Make It Your Aim to Serve God Forever ***
Baptism ‘in the name of the holy spirit’ signifies that the baptismal candidate
recognizes Jehovah’s holy spirit, or active force, as God’s instrument for carrying out His purposes and for empowering His servants to do His righteous will in association with His spirit-directed organization.

So to claim that individual Jehovah's Witnesses are not associated with the Watchtower Society is to deny that individual Jehovah's Witnesses have answered the second question in the affirmative.

Your attempt to distance yourself from this hypocritical organization is understandable. I would encourage you to continue on that path and free yourself from this disingenuous group.

Anonymous said...

Shawn climed "So the Watchtower Society while printing that the UN is the 'wild beast', was also promising to cooperate and promote the activities of the UN - what hypocrites!"

The UN is the wild beast as per the Revelation prophesy, but it has good principles.

"That's right, JWs are baptized into "God's spirit-directed organization""

Sorry, but that baptism question does not identify the Watchtower Society as the spirit directed organization. The Watchtower Society is much too small for that role. In fact I don't see Watchtower Society mentioned in any of those quotes you gave.

Jehovah's Spirit directed organization is much greater than the Watchtower Society.

Anonymous said...

You keep saying Ronde is a troll. He is. He says the same things over and over and over. You keep saying ignore him, but you keep feeding him.

Everyone who is or has been a JW knows what is meant when we say the Watchtower, the Organization, the WBTS, the Society.

Anonymous said...

'The UN is the wild beast as per the Revelation prophesy, but it has good principles.'

It is one of Satans chief tools here on earth, but it has 'good principles.'!!!

Shawn said...

"Anonymous said...

Sorry, but that baptism question does not identify the Watchtower Society as the spirit directed organization. The Watchtower Society is much too small for that role. In fact I don't see Watchtower Society mentioned in any of those quotes you gave.

Jehovah's Spirit directed organization is much greater than the Watchtower Society."

Ok, fair enough, but since you brought it up, let's look into the difference between the Watchtower Society and Jehovah's spirit-directed organization.

*** w85 12/1 p. 20 Do You Honor Jehovah With Your Valuable Things? ***

Do You Honor Jehovah With Your Valuable Things?

“Dear Brothers: How are you? I want to be a missionary when I grow up. Please use this dollar to help missionaries.” So wrote three-year-old Shelley. Her childish scrawl was interpreted at the bottom of the letter by her mother.

More informally, Stephen wrote: “Dear Bible and Tract Society. I’m 8 years old. I live at 89 St. I hope you are having a fun time. I’m giving you one dollar for the Kingdom Hall fund. Send me a letter back soon.”

WHY did these youngsters write to the Watchtower Society’s headquarters? Because they wanted to honor Jehovah by using what they had in furtherance of his praise.
***

So sending money to the Watchtower Society is equivalent to honoring Jehovah. It doesn't say that 'God's organization' encourages Jehovah's Witnesses to also donate to the Watchtower Society which is a good friend of God's organization.

Moving on to a more direct link between baptism, god's organization and the Watchtower Society, we read from the Watchtower...


*** w06 4/1 p. 24 ‘Go and Make Disciples, Baptizing Them’ ***

Identified as One of Jehovah’s Witnesses

11 The second question asks the candidate, first of all, if he understands that his baptism serves to identify him as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. After undergoing immersion, he becomes an ordained minister who bears Jehovah’s name. This is both a great privilege and a serious responsibility. It also puts the one baptized in line for eternal salvation, provided he remains faithful to Jehovah.—Matthew 24:13.

...

14 The second question also reminds the candidate of his responsibility to work with Jehovah’s spirit-directed organization. We are not alone in serving God, and we need the help, support, and encouragement of “the whole association of brothers.” (1 Peter 2:17; 1 Corinthians 12:12, 13) God’s organization plays a vital role in our spiritual growth. It provides a wealth of Bible publications that help us to grow in accurate knowledge, to act wisely when we are faced with problems, and to cultivate a close relationship with God. Like a mother who makes sure that her child is well-fed and cared for, “the faithful and discreet slave” provides an abundance of timely spiritual food for our spiritual advancement.—Matthew 24:45-47; 1 Thessalonians 2:7, 8.
***

Notice that "The second question also reminds the candidate of his responsibility to work with Jehovah’s spirit-directed organization." and "God’s organization plays a vital role in our spiritual growth. It provides a wealth of Bible publications..." It doesn't say that God's organization is friendly with the Watchtower Society and approves of what it prints... it says that God's organization _is_ that one doing the printing. The position is completely unambiguous.

So when the Watchtower Society joins the UN NGO program it was 'God's organization' that joined the UN NGO.

*** re chap. 28 p. 195 par. 31 Contending With Two Ferocious Beasts ***

31 Since World War II, the image of the wild beast—now manifested as the United Nations organization—has already killed in a literal way.
***

*** re chap. 34 p. 248 par. 9 An Awesome Mystery Solved ***

9 The UN is actually a blasphemous counterfeit of God’s Messianic Kingdom by his Prince of Peace, Jesus Christ—to whose princely rule there will be no end.
***

The Watchtower Society, 'God's organization' has willingly submitted to the 'wild beast' who they claim are blasphemous murderers!

"If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, never receive him into your homes or say a greeting to him. For he that says a greeting to him is a sharer in his wicked works."--2 John 11 (NWT)

This scripture in 2 John is used as justification for the practice of disfellowshipping members and yet not only has the Watchtower Society said a greeting to the UN, but has pledged to further its goals! If this were a rank and file member of Jehovah's Witnesses, that person would be eligible for a judicial committee.

Anonymous said...

"Everyone who is or has been a JW knows what is meant when we say the Watchtower, the Organization, the WBTS, the Society."

The usage has been that it is a cheap shot from opposers to focus on the Society and then find a flaw with them and apply it to everything.
Why don't you give us some credit?

Admin Staff said...

"The usage has been that it is a cheap shot from opposers to focus on the Society and then find a flaw with them and apply it to everything.
Why don't you give us some credit?"

Heres the problem with the statement above.
"US" does not exist.
Only the WTBTS known as Jehovahs Witnesses.
"YOU" gave away all rights to common sense and Bible understanding by being baptized into the organization.
"US" is the directives and mandates as laid down by the GB/directives from the HQ.
"YOU and US" are collectively owned by membership, "YOU and US" have no say, comment or input.
Simple really. The history of the WTBTS is a sad reflection on a man made organization claiming to be Gods appointed earthly representative.
That argument is easily disproved by Bible study.
But then, "US" wont let you do that...

tohsibor said...

"The usage has been that it is a cheap shot from opposers to focus on the Society and then find a flaw with them and apply it to everything.
Why don't you give us some credit?"

Do you mean the same way the publications and talks directed and approved by the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses uses the words ‘Christendom’ and ‘Apostates’?

Shawn said...

Anonymous said...

"Everyone who is or has been a JW knows what is meant when we say the Watchtower, the Organization, the WBTS, the Society."

The usage has been that it is a cheap shot from opposers to focus on the Society and then find a flaw with them and apply it to everything.
Why don't you give us some credit?

===============================

How is it a cheap shot to tell the truth? No one is saying there aren't honest-hearted Jehovah's Witnesses. The issue is that the leadership of Jehovah's Witnesses who operate as the Watchtower Society are deceptive and hypocritical.

The issue is pretty cut-and-dried; If an organization claims to be God's spirit-directed organization and God's sole channel of communication, it must live up to that claim and be beyond reproach. The facts however, testify to just the opposite.

The Watchtower Society didn't have to become a UN NGO. They didn't have to predict one date after another as being the end of this system of things.

They chose to do these things to meet their own ends. If they really believed that the UN was the wild beast, the they would have had nothing to do with this 'spiritually unclean' organization. Instead they secretly joined the NGO program and only withdrew when the truth came out... not on their own, but when they were discovered. That is hardly a repentant attitude, that is willful deception.

As far as the false prophesies of the date of Armageddon, they were little more than marketing campaigns to drive up membership or lessen the loss of members after a previous failed prediction. You want to talk about cheap shots, let's talk about how the Watchtower Society scared people into thinking that God's judgment was going to happen in the next few years and they would do well to be busy gathering recruits when it happened. That's borderline extortion!

kimmy jo said...

Right on Shawn and Admin staff!

It is so strange how the JW's on here keep trying to separate themselves from the Watchtower as the 'spirtit directed' Corporation that they follow. A joke,really.

Anonymous said...

Shawn seems to be a broken record on this NGO thing. But what does that have to do with Jehovah's Witnesses?

The records said that Ciro Aulicino was the representative. If it were a matter that concerned all of Jehovah's Witnesses then we all would be representatives. I never got my notice. Thus since I never got notified that I am involved in it, it does not affect me.

tohsibor said...

Anonymous said... "The records said that Ciro Aulicino was the representative. If it were a matter that concerned all of Jehovah's Witnesses then we all would be representatives. I never got my notice. Thus since I never got notified that I am involved in it, it does not affect me."

If you believe that because your name was not specifically listed or/and that you never received any sort of notification regarding being a part and supporting the United Nations that the matter does not affect you, then that is certainly your right and prerogative.

Nevertheless, the facts are in 1992 the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York applied to be a Non-Governmental Organization (NGO) Associate Member of the United Nations Department of Public Information and remained so until 2001. The application was renewed annually and is a matter of public record. Whomever was chosen to perform the enrollment task(s) as well as the renewal task(s) it did so on behalf of the Watchtower Bible and Track Society.

The Watchtower Bible and Track Society are used extensively and at many times exclusively by the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses. The affiliation and relationship is so close the terms are used interchangeably by many. Furthermore, considering the Watchtower Bible and Track Society handles the printing and distributing of the doctrine and decrees of the Governing Body in what they and all Jehovah’s Witnesses are instructed to believe is the dispensing of spiritual food at the proper time, then they are in fact all a part the same organization. The organization in which all Jehovah’s Witnesses are baptized within and pledge their loyalty to and are taught to remain faithful to even if it would mean their life.

Such action(s) of the Watchtower Bible and Track Society and the Governing Body contradicts the same council they provide to Jehovah’s Witnesses who in loyally listening to the organization behind Jehovah’s Witnesses would follow the following admonition:

***January 1, 1979 Watchtower Questions From Readers:
"In joining the YMCA as a member a person accepts or endorses the general objectives and principles of the organization. He is not simply paying for something he receives, such as when buying things being sold to the public at a store. (Compare 1 Corinthians 8:10; 10:25.) Nor is his membership merely an entry pass, as when a person buys a theater ticket. Membership means that one has become an integral part of this organization founded with definite religious objectives, including the promotion of interfaith. Hence, for one of Jehovah's Witnesses to become a member of such a so-called "Christian" association would amount to apostasy.
"Some individuals have on occasion not become members but have paid a onetime admission fee, viewing this as simply paying for a commercial service available. Even in this regard it is wise to consider whether this course will adversely affect the consciences of others? 1 Cor. 8:11-13.”
***

Indeed, “membership means that one has become an in integral part of this organization”.

Shawn said...

"Anonymous said...

Shawn seems to be a broken record on this NGO thing. But what does that have to do with Jehovah's Witnesses?"

===================================

It's called 'staying on topic'... you should try it some time along with having the guts to put your actual name behind your comments. Of course, you'd have to have a defensible position to do that. Instead, your only option is ad hominem fallacies... so I accept your left-handed apology.

WALLE said...

J said
"Nevertheless, the facts are in 1992 the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York applied to be a Non-Governmental Organization (NGO) Associate Member of the United Nations Department of Public Information and remained so until 2001."

I don't follow the WTBTS of NY. I follow the WTBTS of PA.

"The Watchtower Bible and Track Society are used extensively and at many times exclusively by the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses."

So are automobiles and subways.

"The organization in which all Jehovah’s Witnesses are baptized within and pledge their loyalty to and are taught to remain faithful to even if it would mean their life."

That organization is not the WTBTS. No one pledges to it or is to remain loyal to it.


"Such action(s) of the Watchtower Bible and Track Society and the Governing Body"

I don't know what this 'Track' Society is. and the Governing boy was not involved in that.

I don't agree with that 1979 Qfrom Readers. I was a member of a Y at one time.

Anonymous said...

Ronde has changed his name to Walle.Is that pronounced Wally?

In England a wally is an idiot, a twit. Apt name.

steve said...

If Walle is not Ronde how come he has picked up on the same 'broken record'.... being pedantic about the interchangeableness of the WTBS, Watchtower...etc.

OK... WE GET IT! Your replies are just a smokescreen to avoid answering the questions. As anonymous said, everyone who is or has been a JW KNOWS WHAT IS MEANT WHEN THOSE TERMS ARE USED!

Sorry...except you and Ronde...or maybe just you... or maybe you and your twin brother...you both have such a similar style.

Shawn said...

It's funny how ronde, walle and anonymous all missed the part of one of my previous posts where the Watchtower says it is the spirit-directed organization.

Notice that "The second question also reminds the candidate of his responsibility to work with Jehovah’s spirit-directed organization." and "God’s organization plays a vital role in our spiritual growth. It provides a wealth of Bible publications..."

So if someone on this thread is denying that the Watchtower Society is not the spirit-directed organization, they are actually 'promoting a sect' according to the Pay Attention to the Flock book and either need to be readjusted by the elders or be disfellowshipped.

Anonymous said...

Shawn,

Are you spirit directed?

Anonymous said...

"So if someone on this thread is denying that the Watchtower Society is not the spirit-directed organization, they are actually 'promoting a sect' according to the Pay Attention to the Flock book and either need to be readjusted by the elders or be disfellowshipped."

Shawn, You are an idiot. You are speaking against the congregation and then using the Watchtowers and books to back up what you say. You are such a hypocrite.

To answer your question, the Watchtower Society is not the spirit directed organization. Afterall, you did not state which WTS, the NY corp or the PA corp?

Well, since there are 7 million JW in 235 lands and most our outside of NY and PA, then you are obviously wrong.

Shawn said...

"Anonymous said...

Shawn,

Are you spirit directed?"
==================================

I am not spirit-directed in the sense that I have some special knowledge of the scriptures somehow not available to any reader of the Bible and as such I am as spirit-directed as the Watchtower Society.

Thanks for giving me the opportunity to clear that up.

Shawn said...

"Shawn, You are an idiot. You are speaking against the congregation and then using the Watchtowers and books to back up what you say. You are such a hypocrite."

====================================

First of all, I'd like to point out the attempt a character assassination. This is what happens when someone doesn't have a leg to stand on debate-wise.

I speak against the false doctrines of the Watchtower Society and hold its members to the regulations laid out for them by that organization.

I am no more under the law of the Watchtower Society any more than the first century Christians were under Jewish law.

You however have attempted to defend this disingenuous organization and are upset when I point out your own rules? That's how it works. Why when Ted Haggard, who railed against homosexuality for years, was exposed as a drug addict who hired male prostitutes was there such an outrage? Is it not because he violated the boundaries of morality he handed down to his followers?

Far from being a hypocrite, I am merely pointing out that anyone who publicly denies that the Watchtower Society (and I'm not talking about the legal entity) is God's spirit-directed organization has become an apostate and must either repent or be removed from the congregation. These are the rules to which you voluntarily submitted yourself when you were baptized in association with God's spirit-directed organization. Unless of course you have yet to be baptized, in which case your input would be irrelevant - being neither a current or former member.

Anonymous said...

Shawn said:
"I am not spirit-directed in the sense that I have some special knowledge of the scriptures somehow not available to any reader of the Bible and as such I am as spirit-directed as the Watchtower Society."

Then shut up.

Voice of Reason said...

Shawn said:
"First of all, I'd like to point out the attempt a character assassination."

Someone calling you an idiot is character assassination? What a weak character.

"I speak against the false doctrines of the Watchtower Society and hold its members to the regulations laid out for them by that organization."

This is why you are an idiot. You claim that there are regulations and rules from the Watchtower. You don't know the religion to make such statements.

Here is what our rules are such as for higher education:
Well it is up to you, you can do so.
The organization says that's your prerogative.
But we still reap what we sow. They are not the master, they don't
tell us do or don't do in everything, they just give us the
principles. It is our decision, but we will reap what we sow."

"I am no more under the law of the Watchtower Society any more than the first century Christians were under Jewish law."

I never was under the law of the Watchtower Society because it does not exist.

Anonymous said...

If I stick my fingers in my ears and repeat, "Watchtower doesn't have any rules" over and over and over, maybe I'll start believing it!

Ask one of your elders about the bedroom rules. You know, no oral sex. It must be in the rule book somewhere.

But, let's be real. You're on an APOSTATE FORUM. You've never been one for rules.

Remember:

Don't touch your girlfriend's breast.

Don't stay at a hotel that's not on the special list. (You'll need to mention Watchtower to get the good rates, even though Watchtower 'doesn't exist'.)

Don't come to the meeting without shaving or without a tie.

Don't buy a two-door car (they're evil and they prove your selfish).

Voice of Reason said...

"If I stick my fingers in my ears and repeat, "Watchtower doesn't have any rules" over and over and over, maybe I'll start believing it!"

Well, where are those rules?

"Ask one of your elders about the bedroom rules. You know, no oral sex. It must be in the rule book somewhere."

So those are not Watchtower rules, but elders ignoring bible counsel to mind one's own business. And why would one tell the elders what one does anyway?

"But, let's be real. You're on an APOSTATE FORUM. You've never been one for rules."

Well apostates can not be trusted anyway.

"Don't touch your girlfriend's breast."

Why? Unless she is lactating, what good is it?

"Don't stay at a hotel that's not on the special list. (You'll need to mention Watchtower to get the good rates, even though Watchtower 'doesn't exist'.)"

That is for our benefit. So don't knock it. If we don't follow that direction then we won't get the discounted rates.


"Don't come to the meeting without shaving or without a tie."

Why? Other than taking pride in ones appearance, that is not a rule. Elders come in their work clothes. We dress up to glorify God, not because of rules.

"Don't buy a two-door car (they're evil and they prove your selfish)."

And don't have an SUV or pickup as they are ungreen.

As I said, we have no rules. But you will reap what you sow.

Shawn said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Shawn said...

"This is why you are an idiot. You claim that there are regulations and rules from the Watchtower. You don't know the religion to make such statements."


If there were no rules, there would be no way to disfellowship anyone.

==================================

"So those are not Watchtower rules, but elders ignoring bible counsel to mind one's own business. And why would one tell the elders what one does anyway?"

The Pay Attention to the Flock book actually recommends that elders investigate reports of 'wrongdoing'. So there is no 'mind your own business' policy if you're an elder... and you know this VoR. Stop making up JW policy to save yourself embarrassment.

Voice of Reason said...

Shawn said:
"If there were no rules, there would be no way to disfellowship anyone. "

People are not disfellowshipped from violating any rules.

People are disfellowshipped for being unrepentant over gross sins. Sins are not rules.

"The Pay Attention to the Flock book actually recommends that elders investigate reports of 'wrongdoing'. So there is no 'mind your own business' policy if your an elder... and you know this VoR. Stop making up JW policy to save yourself embarrassment. "

Reports of wrongdoing is not rules. And yes, elders are not policemen and have to mind their own business. That is what the Bible says.

The 6/15/2007W article on elders says that they are not to make unnecesary or unscriptural rules.
Anything necessary or scriptural is not a rule, but a principle based on the Bible.

Voice of Reason said...

Chocolate pudding said:
"My goodness, don't you have any compassion for people? When I see the damage done to families by being in this religion it really hurts my heart."

Yeah, but what makes it your business the age of one getting baptized? What does that have to do with compassion?

The only damage done is when people are unbalanced in matters. Reasonableness is balance.

Shawn said...

Here's the list of rules straight from the Pay Attention to the Flock book that the elders used.

"Manslaughter.
A degree of guilt could result from careless driving, care-
less maintenance of one's automobile, or other careless or
thoughtless action that causes injury or death . (Compare
Deuteronomy 22 :8 .)
Being a professional boxer may be viewed in a similar
way. (w81 7/1 pp. 30-1)
Attempted suicide may be the result of deep despair or
major depression ; deal carefully and compassionately with
such a person . In most cases a judicial hearing is not
required . (Ps . 88:3, 17, 18 ; Prov. 15 :13 ; Eccl. 7 :7 ; g90
9/8 pp. 22-3 ; w90 3/15 pp . 26-30 ; w90 3/1 pp . 5-9 ; w83
8/1 pp . 3-11)
Sexual misconduct, including adultery, fornication, and
other forms of `por.nei'a . "
Uncleanness includes an intentional momentary touching
of sexual parts or caressing of breasts . (1 Thess . 4:7, 8 ;
1 Tim. 5 :1, 2 )
Such minor uncleanness can be handled at the discre-
tion of an elder or two ; it does not require a judicial
hearing .
There is a need for strong counsel, admonition, and
assistance to help the individual to maintain chaste
conduct in the future .
If not corrected, such conduct may escalate in gravity
and by frequent repetition become loose conduct .
Loose conduct is a shocking, flagrant disregard for Jeho-
vah's moral standards . (Gal. 5 :19 ; w83 3/15 p . 31 ; w73
9/15 pp . 574-6)
It may include the willful practice of heavy petting or
the fondling of breasts .
The nature, circumstances, and actual extent of what
has occurred may indicate loose conduct, which would
require judicial action .
Such practices can easily lead to por.nei'a .
"Por.nei'a" involves immoral use of the genitals of at least
one human (whether in a natural or a perverted way), and
there must have been another party to the immorality-a
human of either sex or a beast ; willing participation incurs
guilt and requires judicial action . It is not a casual touch-
ing of the sex organs between persons but involves the
manipulation of the genitals . (w83 6/1 pp . 23-6 ; w83
3/15 pp . 30-1)
It includes oral and anal sex or mutual masturbation
between persons not married to each other, homosexu-
ality, lesbianism, fornication, adultery, incest, and bes-
tiality . (Lev. 20 :10, 13, 15, 16 ; Rom. 1 :24, 26, 27, 32 ;
1 Cor . 6 :9, 10)
Also included are sexual abuse of children, including
practices involving a catamite (a boy kept for purposes
of sexual perversion) . (Deut . 23 :17, 18, Ref. Bi ., ftns. )
Victims of sexual abuse need to be treated with
extreme thoughtfulness and kindness . Elders should
always do what they reasonably can to protect
children from further abuse ; follow the Society's
directives on such matters . (g85 1/22 p . 8 )
Self-abuse, or masturbation, is not `por.nei'a, " nor
would one who was raped be guilty of porn ei'a . (w83
3/15 p . 30 ; w74 3/1 p . 160 ; it-1 pp . 862-4 ; tp p . 144)
The term por.nei'a lays emphasis on both the lewd
nature and the intent of the person's - conduct, and it
embraces all illicit sexual activity characteristic of that
found in a house of prostitution.
Copulation (as in penetration) is not necessary to
constitute por.nei'a, and neither is sexual climax .
In borderline cases, it is the responsibility of the
judicial committee to weigh carefully the Scriptures
and the particular facts in the case to determine
whether por.nei'a was involved .
This responsibility should not be taken lightly,
especially when Scriptural freedom to remarry is
involved . (Mal . 2 :16a)
Apostasy .
Apostasy is a standing away from, a falling away, defec-
tion, rebellion, abandonment ; it involves teaching false
doctrines, supporting or promoting false religion and its
holidays or interfaith activities. (Deut . 13 :13, 15 ; Josh.
22 :22, ftn . ; Acts 21 :21, ftn. ; 2 Cor. 6 :14, 15, 17, 18 ;
2 John 7, 9, 10 ; Rev . 18 :4)
Those with sincere doubts should be helped, dealt with
mercifully . (Jude 22, 23 ; w82 9/1 pp . 20-1 ; w80 8/1
pp . 21-2)
Apostasy includes action taken against true worship of
Jehovah or his established order among his dedicated
people . (Jer . 17 :13 ; 23 :15 ; 28 :15, 16 ; 2 Thess . 2 :9, 10)
Persons who deliberately spread (stubbornly hold to and
speak about) teachings contrary to Bible truth as taught
by Jehovah's Witnesses are apostates .
If it is learned that a person has taken up association with
another religious organization, the matter should be inves-
tigated, and if verified, a committee should be formed .
If it is clearly established that the person has joined
another religion and intends to remain with it, the
elders would make a brief announcement to the congre-
gation that such one has disassociated himself. (w86
10/15 p . 31)
Working secularly for a false religious organization could
put one in a position similar to that of one preaching false
doctrine . (2 Cor. 6 :14-16)
Celebrating a false religious holiday would be similar to
performing any other act of false worship . (Jer . 7 :16-19)
The Bible condemns the following :
Causing divisions and promoting sects .
This would be deliberate action disrupting the unity
of the congregation or undermining the confidence
of the brothers in Jehovah's arrangement .
It may involve or lead to apostasy . (Rom. 16 :
17, 18 ; Titus 3 :10, 11)
The practice of spiritism . (Deut . 18 :9-13 ; 1 Cor . 10 :
21, 22 ; Gal . 5 :20)
Idolatry . (1 Cor. 6 :9, 10 : 10 :14)
Idolatry includes the possession and use of images
and pictures that are employed in false religion .
Drunkenness . (1 Cor. 5 :11 ; 6 :9, 10; it-1 p . 656)
Stealing, thievery, fraud . (Lev. 6 :2, 4 ; 1 Cor. 6 :9, 10 ;
Eph. 4 :28 ; it-1 p . 870)
Deliberate, malicious lying; bearing false witness . (Prov . 6 :
16, 19; Col . 3 :9 ; Rev. 22 :15 ; it-2 pp . 244-5)
Reviling, slander . (Lev . 19 :16; 1 Cor. 6 :10; it-1 pp .
989-91 ; it-2 pp . 801-2)
Obscene speech . (Eph . 5 :3-5 ; Col . 3 :8)
Failure to abstain from blood . (Gen . 9 :4 ; Acts 15 :20,
28,29)
Greed-gambling, extortion . (1 Cor. 5 :10, 11 ; 6 :10 ;
1 Tim. 3 :8 ; it-1 pp . 1005-6)
Adamant refusal to provide materially for one's own fam-
ily-leaving wife and children destitute when having the
means to provide . (1 Tim . 5 :8; w88 11/1 pp. 22-3; km
9/73 p. 8 )
Nonneutral activities . (Isa . 2 :4 ; John 6 :15 ; 17 :16)
Fits of anger, violence . (Prov . 22:24, 25 ; Mal. 2 :16; Gal.
5 :20)
Misuse of tobacco or addictive drugs . (2 Cor . 7 : 1 ; Mark
15 :23 ; Rev . 21 :8, Int . ; 22 :15, Int.)
Loose conduct . Term not restricted to sexual immorality .
(Gal. 5 :19, Ref . Bi., ftn. ; 2 Pet. 2 :7, Ref. Bi., ftn . ; w83
3/15 p. 31 ; w73 9/15 pp. 574-6 ; it-2 p . 264)"

So there are the rules. The Bible does not outline the reasons for disfellowshipping, the Watchtower Society does and the quote above is their list of rules that must not be broken.

As far as your 'elders need to mind thier own business' policy, we read again from the Pay Attention to the Flock book for elders:

"There are certain cases that the body of elders is respon-
sible to investigate and, when necessary, appoint a judi-
cial committee to handle :
Gross sins-either those that have brought the congrega-
tion into public disrepute or those of a more private
nature. (Rom . 2 :21-24 ; 1 Cor. 5 :1 ; 2 Cor. 7 :11)
Any serious sin that constitutes a clear threat of contami-
nating the congregation . (1 Cor . 5 :6, 9-11 ; Gal. 5 :19-21 ;
1 Tim. 1 :9, 10)
When an elder or a ministerial servant commits a gross
wrong, he is morally obligated to inform the body of
elders of his being reprehensible .
He would not qualify to continue in his appointed
position of service .
The same would be true concerning a pioneer who
becomes involved in serious sin ."

...and since you're pushing the issue, I'm also going to point out that the elders are not only the investigators, they are the judges too!

"Elders Are Teachers and Judges
As "Judge of all the earth," Jehovah provides fatherly
correction and discipline whenever needed . (Gen. 18 :
25; Heb. 12:5, 6 )
He has raised up elders to serve as counselors and judges .
(Isa . 1 :26)
By judging in righteousness, you may turn others back
from a sinful course . (Prov . 14 :12 ; Jer . 10 :23, 24)
God's Word is the basis for needed correction . (2 Tim .
3 :14-17)"

That's right the elders are not only the prosecution, but the judge and jury too... it's called a kangaroo court.

It's true that the Watchtower has printed that elders are not to make 'unnecessary or unscriptural rules', but the rules quoted above leave a lot of latitude for what is 'unscriptural'.

Far from telling the elders to mind their own business, the Watchtower Society insists that they maintain a tight grip on the members in the congregation, hunting down anyone who would dare touch a breast or smoke a cigar.


...so put that in your pipe and smoke it.

Shawn said...

"The only damage done is when people are unbalanced in matters. Reasonableness is balance."

===================================

You can come back and talk to us about balance and reason when the Watchtower Society drops its unbalanced and unreasonable policy of disfellowshipping in order to maintain fear and control of its members.

Anonymous said...

Wow, shawn quoted scriptural rules from a book that he is not supposed to even haven.

What an ass.

Voice of Reason said...

Shawn said:
"You can come back and talk to us about balance and reason when the Watchtower Society drops its unbalanced and unreasonable policy of disfellowshipping in order to maintain fear and control of its members."

Well, when you all behave yourselves and play right, then none of that will be necessary.

When you stop worshipping the Watchtower Society, then you will understand.

Shawn said...

"Wow, shawn quoted scriptural rules from a book that he is not supposed to even haven.

What an ass."

=================================

Just because I'm not supposed to have it doesn't mean it isn't true.

Hehe - and by the way, wasn't it an ass that kept Balaam from certain death. Maybe you should try listening and thinking critically about what is being said instead of immediately lashing out like Balaam?

Anonymous said...

Anon said

'Wow, shawn quoted scriptural rules from a book that he is not supposed to even haven.'

I notice that you DID acknowledge that it is a book of rules while you were trying to create a smoke screen with your asinine comment

Voice of Reason said...

"shawn quoted scriptural rules from a book that he is not supposed to even have"

"I notice that you DID acknowledge that it is a book of rules "

Yes, and those are SCRIPTURAL rules.
Anything wrong with that?

Got a problem with the scriptures?

Bud said...

Shawn
Seeing that list all pulled together in one place turns my stomach. I am so glad I am no longer an elder. How did things ever get to this point?

Voice of Reason said...

Bud said:
"Seeing that list all pulled together in one place turns my stomach. I am so glad I am no longer an elder. How did things ever get to this point?"

Why are you glad you are no longer an overseer? The overseers, you claim, are the problems, so you were the problem.

How did things get to that point? You all worshipped the Watchtower too much. If you were reasonable, like I am, then none of this will be an issue.

The Pastor said...

Voice of Reason wrote: "If you were reasonable, like I am, then none of this will be an issue."

I like the fact that you think for yourself. That is the beginning of breaking free of being enslaved to a high control group like Jehovah's Witnesses.

However, for those reading these posts that may not have ever been baptized or are just curious as to how the organization operates, let's plainly and clearly examine how your "Mother", the Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses views you, Voice of Reason. Here it is. Please verify the accuracy of this direct quote from your copy of the WATCHTOWER Library CD-ROM.

*** w87 11/1 p. 20 par. 16 Are You Remaining Clean in Every Respect? ***

"This does not mean giving apostates a hearing ear or delving into their writings. Rather, it means coming to “an accurate knowledge of the sacred secret of God” through diligent personal study of the Bible and the Society’s Bible-based publications. Having this accurate knowledge, who would become so curious as to pay any attention to apostate mouthings? . . . False religious propaganda from any source should be avoided like poison!"

Again, I'm glad you are ignoring this counsel, because I personally want to help you and I'm willing to do whatever it takes.

The Society's position towards your involvement with me could not be clearer. You are being disobedient. You are having fellowship with those Jehovah hates.

Voice of Reason said...

Pastor said:
"I like the fact that you think for yourself. That is the beginning of breaking free of being enslaved to a high control group like Jehovah's Witnesses."

I have never been enslaved by JWs
because they don't do that.

"However, for those reading these posts that may not have ever been baptized or are just curious as to how the organization operates, let's plainly and clearly examine how your "Mother", the Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses views you, Voice of Reason."

That does not matter. They view me just fine. I do good work for them, in putting down apostates.


"This does not mean giving apostates a hearing ear or delving into their writings."

Does not apply to me. Never has, never will.

"Again, I'm glad you are ignoring this counsel, because I personally want to help you and I'm willing to do whatever it takes."

That is for the weak ones.

"The Society's position towards your involvement with me could not be clearer. You are being disobedient. You are having fellowship with those Jehovah hates. "

To be disobedient, there must be someone to be obedient to. You are way off on that one.

Voice of Reason said...

Pastor, you are the hypocrite. Telling me that I am being disobedient. Well, when I see you make a good example of what obedience is, then I will know what to do.

The Pastor said...

VoR wrote: "Pastor, you are the hypocrite."

Perhaps I misunderstood you. I was under the impression that you're a JW. If you're not, I apologize for saying you are disobedient. Those rules only apply to JWs.

Do you view what is written in the Watchtower magazine as valid instructions for God's people today?

Voice of Reason said...

Pastor said:
"Do you view what is written in the Watchtower magazine as valid instructions for God's people today? "

Pastor.

Listen to me. Learn Bible principle and then live your live.

You will find that is the same as all of this Watchtower stuff that you talk about. You all just get so stumbled over the watchtower but that is not our focus. We focus on Jehovah by learning his principles his teachings.

The Pastor said...

VoR,

We finally agree on something. We should not take seriously what is written in the Watchtower magazine. We should focus on Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit and the Holy Bible.

Please keep doing this. You will be rewarded.

Focus on JESUS. We are Christians. We can only reach the father through JESUS.

Anonymous said...

What came first, the Bible principle or the Watchtower telling you how to apply it?