Jehovah's Witnesses consider themselves part of "The one original religion introduced by mankind's Creator (as apposed to) the many counterfeit kinds introduced by his adversary." (Awake! 1989 Jan 8 p.7)
It is taught that there have always been Jehovah's Witnesses.
Although they really have no real proof of this statement, they insist that it is true
"Jehovah's witnesses have a history almost 6,000 years long, beginning while the first man, Adam, was still alive, … [Abel was] the first of an unbroken line of Witnesses…Jesus' disciples were all Jehovah's witnesses [sic] too."
Jehovah's Witnesses in the Divine Purpose pp.8-9 It is said that in 33 A.D. Jesus established a Slave Class to spiritually care for his people. The slave has continued uninterrupted since Jesus death, and will continue until the time of his return. Since 1919 that slave has been identified as operating in its cleansed, awaken format as the Watchtower Society.
These completely unproven statements show clearly that the Watchtower has absolutely no respect for the intelligence of its readers and believes that they can throw anything out there and it will be believed. The unfortunate fact is that it usually is!
My question is: If the Jehovah's Witnesses are the one true religion and can trace their religion all they way back to Adam, why did God chose the apostate Catholic Church to compile the Bible Canon in the 4th and 5th century and not use his "Faithful Slave"?
20 comments:
This is really important point for true Christians.
Because, they have to know, even want to know histroical fact regarding development of Biblical canon to ascertain accepted fact regarding the Bible.
By this, they will be able to explain others regarding the Bible from spiritual point of view & also historical, actual point of view.
I am supposed that later one is actually true Christians who has common sence. Even such one always welcome opposite and different thought.
Unfortunately, individual JW are not requested to learn such history.
Rather, they are just demanded to accept whatever the WT writes & say to let themselves to be brainwashed & not to look historical fact which is seemed as valuless things in God's eye according to the JW teaching.
If a slave has existed right down through the centuries, it means that for nearly 1700 years the slave class was part of Christendom, part of false religion.
The Watchtower often parades historical figures as courageous martyrs for the cause of truth, those like William Tyndale, for example, who translated the Bible into common English in the 14th century,which no doubt was a huge step in the history of the education and circulation of the Bible, as it laid the groundwork for the King James version.
What was Tyndale's religion? He was a Protestant Reformer, part of Christendom, part of false religion, part of Babylon the Great, part of Satans empire.
How could people like Tyndale, Wycliffe, Hus and the like be part of the faithful slave class, when they were in religions controlled by Satan? They could not.
So who were the slave if true religion was not revived until C T Russell came on the scene?
I've been down this path with the brothers before. When asked how Jehovah could have used the Catholics to put together the Bible or Tyndale to translate and disseminate it, they point to Jehovah as using Babylon to punish His people and then Persia to free them. They say He oftentimes uses the world to accomplish His purpose.
However, when someone of the "world" confronts them with a bible-based discussion that refutes their doctrine, they say these "worldly" people are tools of Satan that twist and deceive. They are not to be trusted.
Then you ask them if Jehovah has used the "world" in the past why not use it today? They come back with the argument that anything not coming from the Watchtower since 1914-18 when the inspection happened is Satanic. Then you show them that the beliefs and practices of the Society back then largely reflected mainline Christianity today.
That's when you are marked, shunned, cast aside, and pitied. Discussions end. Logic is thrown out the door, and the familiar mantra is repeated, "the light gets brighter".
Jehovah's Witnesses, as sincere as they are, have been tricked into defending WT doctrine and stand out as a group who uses circular reasoning as the foundation for their beliefs. The most alarming part of this is that they don't even know they're doing it.
The FDS existed in the middle ages.
They were the wheat class.
Hus, Calvin, Luther, Tindale, etc were all part of the FDS of their time. They were responsible for the Bible, not the Catholic church.
The FDS existed in the middle ages.
They were the wheat class.
Hus, Calvin, Luther, Tindale, etc were all part of the FDS of their time. They were responsible for the Bible, not the Catholic church.
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Good try, ronde. Ridiculous, but you gave it a shot!
"The FDS existed in the middle ages.
They were the wheat class."
I see. Or rather I dont. Do you think its time for you to read the bible ronde? I mean logically and on your own with out the filters of the WTBTS ?
but then, you dont have much to reason with do you?
"Jehovah's Witnesses, as sincere as they are, have been tricked into defending WT doctrine and stand out as a group who uses circular reasoning as the foundation for their beliefs. The most alarming part of this is that they don't even know they're doing it."
That's right on, well said.
'They were responsible for the Bible, not the Catholic church.'
Tyndale was a Protestant Reformer.
He held false religious beliefs. So Tyndale for example did a work approved of by God even though he believed false doctrines.
Does that mean that the missionaries of Christendom who first took the Bible to foreign lands in the 19th century, where JWs now proliferate, are part of the FDS too, despite their false beliefs?
@ronde
You are hilarious!
No GBL, not ridiculous.
Read Matt 13.
"The kingdom of the heavens has become like a man that sowed fine seed in his field."
That is Jesus and the apostles.
25 While men were sleeping, his enemy came and oversowed weeds in among the wheat, and left.
After the apostles died, the enemy, Satan brought in false teachers.
26 When the blade sprouted and produced fruit, then the weeds appeared also.
Then came the middle ages and the Catholic church as the weeds.
28 He said to them, ‘An enemy, a man, did this.’ They said to him, ‘Do you want us, then, to go out and collect them?’ 29 He said, ‘No; that by no chance, while collecting the weeds, YOU uproot the wheat with them.
While wheat and the darnel weeds grow and are immature, they look alike. Thus it is hard to distinguish them. During the middle ages, there were wheat, but they looked like the weeds. Ones like Tyndale, Luther, Wycliffe, and many other we will never even know were the wheat or anointed ones. But they had false beliefs so they looked like the weeds. But they were anointed. Jesus said so. He said that there were wheat that looked like weeds.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest; and in the harvest season I will tell the reapers, First collect the weeds and bind them in bundles to burn them up, then go to gathering the wheat into my storehouse.’”
The harvest in post 1914. After that time the anointed distinguished themselves from the weeds of false religion so the angels knew the anointed wheat from the weeds.
41 The Son of man will send forth his angels, and they will collect out from his kingdom all things that cause stumbling and persons who are doing lawlessness, 42 and they will pitch them into the fiery furnace. There is where [their] weeping and the gnashing of [their] teeth will be. 43 At that time the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Let him that has ears listen.
Since 1914, the angels have been collecting the weeds such as apostates and removing them from the sons of the kingdom.
steve said:
"They were responsible for the Bible, not the Catholic church.'
Tyndale was a Protestant Reformer.
He held false religious beliefs. So Tyndale for example did a work approved of by God even though he believed false doctrines."
So Jesus was right. That the wheat class, Tyndale, Wycliffe, Luther and others, would look like and not be distinguishable from the weeds, Catholics.
"Does that mean that the missionaries of Christendom who first took the Bible to foreign lands in the 19th century, where JWs now proliferate, are part of the FDS too, despite their false beliefs?"
They could have been wheat and like Jesus said, grew with the weeds.
Read Matt 13.
Thanks, ronde, but I have read that chapter of the Bible.
You got your explanation of that chapter right out of a Watchtower publication, didn't you?
The god that JW teach doesn't make sense. They tried to explain a lot of man made traditions as if it were scenes of the same play, but no way. The question about the bible canon is just an example. JW's has been very imaginative in composing a story that tried to explain it all. But it's not true, that god doesn't make sense. Time will tell.
GBLetters said:"
Read Matt 13.
Thanks, ronde, but I have read that chapter of the Bible."
Then what do you think of it?
"You got your explanation of that chapter right out of a Watchtower publication, didn't you?"
Nope. I don't read them. I have a talk by RE Abrahamson that deals with that very subject. Listening to it right now. Its a shame you don't expand your horizons.
"The god that JW teach doesn't make sense."
Why? What fault do you find in Jehovah?
" They tried to explain a lot of man made traditions as if it were scenes of the same play, but no way. The question about the bible canon is just an example. JW's has been very imaginative in composing a story that tried to explain it all. But it's not true, that god doesn't make sense. Time will tell. "
Your statement makes no sense. What is your point?
God does not make sense? then what does?
Ronde, did you know that
John Calvin's teachings are the basis of the Congregational, Reform and Presbyterian churches. [If Calvin was a JW, wouldn't that make those who follow his teachings Jehovah's witnesses?]
Martin Luther was a priest who saw errors in his Organization. His goal was to reform that church--not to leave it. However, the Church called his speaking out about their errors heresy and apostasy. They held a Judicial Committee meeting and summarily disfellowshipped him making anyone who spoke or listened to him subject to disfellowshiping as well. Luther went on to found Lutheran Church. [If HE was a witness then shouldn't his followers be too?]
Then there's Jan Hus, another Catholic priest who, readi not only the bible but literature not published by that Organization's Governing Body. For such 'crimes' he was
(1) Called before a Judicial Committee;
(2) was judged to be an apostate,
(3) was disfellowshipped, and burned at the stake to "keep the church clean".
I ask: Who acted more like Jehovah's Witnesses, the men who compared the teachings of bible to that of the Society, or the Organization, who's 'truth' was so threatened by exposure to God's Word that they excommunicated anyone who recognized the differences?
CEE CEE said:
"Ronde, did you know that
John Calvin's teachings are the basis of the Congregational, Reform and Presbyterian churches. "
Do I care?
"Who acted more like Jehovah's Witnesses, the men who compared the teachings of bible to that of the Society, or the Organization, who's 'truth' was so threatened by exposure to God's Word that they excommunicated anyone who recognized the differences?"
The ones that searched for the truth regardless of what they world around them thought.
The Catholic church was not an example of the truth religion.
ronde, you are interjecting man-made teachings in with the Bible. You have no basis, Biblically, to identify specific men with being the "wheat" and "weeds." You have no basis, Biblically, to identify any specific men with being of the "Faithful and discreet slave." Why? Because THE BIBLE DOES NOT GIVE YOU THE IDENTIFICATION.
By assigning names, dates, and places to vague biblical events, you are speculating, nothing more.
Brian,
"you are interjecting man-made teachings in with the Bible. You have no basis, Biblically, to identify specific men with being the "wheat" and "weeds.""
Do you know what you are saying?
What, Jesus' prophesy was meant to be fulfilled on people. Some people would be weeds and some would be wheat. The ones that acted like wheat, can be identified as such.
" You have no basis, Biblically, to identify any specific men with being of the "Faithful and discreet slave." Why? Because THE BIBLE DOES NOT GIVE YOU THE IDENTIFICATION."
Of course because the Bible was written before it happened.
"By assigning names, dates, and places to vague biblical events, you are speculating, nothing more."
So what of it? We are right.
Ronde...defending the Watchtower even though there is no biblical evidence for its position:
"So what? We're right."
Aren't you saying that Jehovah's Witnesses are right - because they say so - not because God's word says so?
You aren't be alone in that. I once heard a Circuit Overseer tell pioneers that 'Jehovah would do whatever the Watchtower said'. Some difference from Jesus, praying "not my will but thy will be done", eh?
Back to my original topic... Your "so what" attitude portrays the holy scriptures as irrelevant where there is no 'proof text' to support the WTBTS doctrine; yet you cite verses to defend their position elsewhere. Which are we to believe?
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