Sunday, September 21, 2008

New Light From Old Books And Dead Opposers

New Light from Old Books and Dead Opposers
by Gary Busselman
In support of their recent Biblical interpretation change concerning "this generation" (Matt. 24:34), the Governing Body (hereafter GB) of Jehovah's Witnesses submitted four documents. (Watchtower, 11/1/95, p. 12)
Those were:
1. Walter Bauer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament.
2. W.E. Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words.
3. J.H. Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament.
4. The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (1964), edited by Gerhard Kittle.
After reading the November 1, 1995 Watchtower, my friend, Steven A. Hickey, pastor of Harvest Covenant Church in Sioux Falls, SD (also a Biblical scholar and theologian) asked me, "How do they get 'new light' from a guy who's been dead for a hundred years?"
In my research that he inspired, I found that the GB often relies on "worldly wisdom" from old books and dead opposers, who were educated by, and members of "apostate Christendom." (Sorry folks, Watchtower language, not mine.) Here are some additional facts regarding these sources.
1. Walter Bauer (1877-1960), German lexicographer. Taught at Gottingen from 1916 to 1945. (Wycliffe Biographical Dictionary of the Church, 1982, Moody Press, Chicago.)
2. William Edwy Vine (1873-1949), vocal OPPOSER of Jehovah's Witnesses, called their teachings of conditional salvation, the denials of the Deity of Christ, and the Trinity heresies. [Vine was appealed to by the Watchtower 52 times in their encyclopedic Insight on the Scriptures alone.] Greek scholar, educator, editor, pastor and author, educated at University College of Wales; BA & MA in "Ancient Classics" from University of London, pastor at Manvers Hall Church in Bath for 40 years. Celebrated Christmas, believed in Hell and that Christ is God, that He died on a CROSS, it is proper to address Him in prayer, and that all believers partake in the Lord's Supper.
Vine denied the concept of an early Christian "organization," and a "selective" resurrection. He wrote two volumes on the "End Times" and the parousia. Vine taught that parousia should not be translated at all and that it (parousia) will start with the rapture of the Church, (when believers meet Christ in the air) and it will end with the manifestation of Christ in glory. (Publisher's Forward of Vine's Expository, 1981 ed. and W.E. Vine, His Life and Ministry, Oliphants LTD, London, 1951)
3. Joseph Henry Thayer (1828 -1901), New Testament lexicographer, born in Boston, MA, College at Harvard and seminary at Andover. Ordained a pastor in the Congregational Church in 1859. Professor of sacred literature at Andover Theological Seminary (1864-1882). Lecturer at Harvard Divinity School (1883-1901). Instrumental in founding the American School of Oriental Research in Jerusalem. (Wycliffe Biographical Dictionary of the Church, 1982, Moody Press, Chicago.)
4. Gerhard Kittle (1888-1948), German biblical scholar, born in Breslau, Germany. Instructor at Kiel (1913) and Leipzig (1917), professor of New Testament at Greifswalg (1921-1926) (ibid. p. 229)
Similarly, the Watchtower publication Insight On The Scriptures, vol. 1, p. 440 applies for credibility citing the following sources of "worldly wisdom":
1. Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, James Strong (1822-1894), Methodist biblical scholar and educator. A member of the Anglo-American Bible Revision Committee. (Wycliffe Biographical Dictionary of the Church, 1982, Moody Press, Chicago, p. 385)
2. Edward Robinson's Greek and English Lexicon, Edward Robinson (1794-1863), American biblical scholar, studied at Hamilton College and learned Greek at Andover Theological Seminary. Did much research and theological writing. (Who Was Who in Church History, Moody Press, Chicago, 1962.)
What do these Watchtower sources all have in common?
a. They are all dead. (Long-time dead men don't usually write, call or show up on videos.)
b. They were all college educated (unlike most Witnesses I know). And they read Greek and Hebrew (unlike all Witnesses I know).
c. None were Jehovah's Witnesses. All were students of, and/or members of "Christendom."
d. All were writers of what the Watchtower calls "wisdom of the world."

70 comments:

Anonymous said...

This should not be a suprise as much of what JW's believe comes from 19th century second adventism (apostate christendom) via Russell and the adventists with whom he studied and others that influenced him. Of course the WTBS will selectively quote from both secular, theological and academic sources to support either predetermined beliefs or a changed understanding and ignore other aspects from such sources that conflict with their beliefs and theology.

Sheeplike said...

You all have missed the point. The BASIC BELIEFS have never changed. God is not a trinity, their is no literal hellfire, the soul is not immortal, etc.

Anonymous said...

copy-n-paste from http://www.freeminds.org/history/busselmn.htm
which is a reprint from the Mar/Apr 1996 Free Minds Journal

Anonymous said...

dear sheeplike:

there are many sects which have the basic beliefs like no trinity hell etc.

YOU have missed the point, truth intermingled with false doctrinal organization worship does not make for the true religion.

JoePublish said...

Interesting research and comments Gary B!

JoePublish said...

Anon replied to a JW apologist: "YOU have missed the point, truth intermingled with false doctrinal organization worship does not make for the true religion."

Yes, I agree. Kind-of reminds you of that long used JW illustration that even a little poison (falsehood/lies) makes the whole religion a lie. (JW's need to ask why this illustration never applies to their own religion.)

Calling a mistake/error/falsehood/etc. "new light" is just a clever ruse - oh, look at the synonyms for ruse: trick, wile, con, scam, hoax, deception.)

Anonymous said...

sheeplike wrote: "The BASIC BELIEFS have never changed"

Isn't that nice? That's wonderful. The Bible hasn't changed in 2000 years. It's so refreshing that the 'basic' WT ideas haven't changed.

Unimpressed.

I encourage you to research the Trinity. In less than an hour, you'll discover that Watchtower has mislead you about what the doctrine actually is.

Voice of Reason said...

"me, "How do they get 'new light' from a guy who's been dead for a hundred years?""

I am not sure what the problem is?

There is no such thing as 'new light'. And the fact that those authors are dead does not change that. The Bible writers are dead. But rereading the Bible gives clarification. Gary Busselman is dead. He is wicked.

Voice of Reason said...

One thing that I don't understand is why people complain that the "Watchtower doctrines" have changed over the years?

Aren't they supposed to?

If they didn't change, then that means that the original writer had everything correct. How would that happen? No one ever answers that question.

Anonymous said...

Voice of Reason: Truth does not change.

Yet, JWs go to people's doors and tell them: "We have the Truth."

Again, if you had the TRUTH, your message and teachings would not change.

What you have are the CURRENT UNIQUE INTERPRETATIONS OF SCRIPTURE as put forth by your organization.

Nothing more, nothing less.

When your 'current truths' conflict with Scripture, which has been the case, over and over, your teachings are not TRUTH.

If I could explain it any simpler, I would.

Anonymous said...

Although I do enjoy reading this blog from time to time, actually almost daily, I fail to understand why so many who leave the Jehovah’s Witness organization seem to find it necessary to go after them and their teachings with such vigor.

If you left, for whatever the reason, that’s fine. But why do you seemingly have the obsession of pointing out their error. If it is not of God it will of its own virtue or lack thereof fail.

Why make a point of pointing out all of the errors as you see them. I can understand you creating a ministry to turn people to Christ. A positive ministry based on love and all that Christian philosophy. But you seem to be hell bent on showing them to be false prophets.

The world does not care about Jehovah’s Witnesses one way or the other. Jehovah’s Witnesses who are in good standing are not even going to look at this “evil” site for the most part. Some who do look seem to do so to preach their indoctrination to you which in my view is an error on their part.

As for me, I don’t give a good God Damn one way or the other. I just read it because I am fascinated to see what is being posted here. But then again my standard of fascination is pretty low.

Voice of Reason said...

"Voice of Reason: Truth does not change."

No one ever said it did.

"Yet, JWs go to people's doors and tell them: "We have the Truth.""

That is because we do have the truth.

"Again, if you had the TRUTH, your message and teachings would not change."

Our message and teachings have not changed. Things like the generation are not our message and teachings. That is not relevant to our message.

"What you have are the CURRENT UNIQUE INTERPRETATIONS OF SCRIPTURE as put forth by your organization."

So what of it?
I have no problem with that.

"When your 'current truths' conflict with Scripture, which has been the case, over and over, your teachings are not TRUTH."

Why is it that people say that but they have never ever given an example?

"If I could explain it any simpler, I would."

Well, if you could actually show where we conflict with scripture.

Voice of Reason said...

"Although I do enjoy reading this blog from time to time, actually almost daily, I fail to understand why so many who leave the Jehovah’s Witness organization seem to find it necessary to go after them and their teachings with such vigor."

The devil is behind them (the antijws) and their actions.

Consider that when people from other religions become JWs, they do not attack their former religions. They bring the truth to all people. That is the reason that we have the truth and teach the real gospel.

AntiWitnesses can't seem to understand that.

Secret Rapture said...

My inaugural address at the Great White Throne Judgment of the Dead, after I have raptured out billions! The Secret Rapture soon, by my hand! Stay tuned!
Read My Inaugural Address
At = http://www.angelfire.com/crazy/spaceman

Anonymous said...

Tsk, Tsk! It's not "new light". As someone commented there's no such thing. The correct wording is:

"The light grows brighter".

That term makes your point about "Old Books and Dead Opposers" all the better.

It means that Watchtower Society admits it has been stumbling around in the dark for decades while 'those evil Christians' who study God's Word without the Organization's "aides to bible understanding" understood generations ago.

Q: Does knowing that the the Society has replaced its teachings with long-standing Christian beliefs as the "light grows brighter" inspire you to place more or less trust in what Jehovah's Witnesses call 'The Truth'?

Anonymous said...

If the rapture is secret, how are we to know of it?

Voice of Reason said...

"long-standing Christian beliefs "
No one has replaced anything with that.

Anonymous said...

There is no room within my heart
for revenge, fire or hate
there is no room within my mind
for any thoughts like these.
cannot find the words to say
just how it is I feel
but I know from deepest hurt
I must forgiveness find.
The hurt that¢s
been done to us
cuts sore like a knife,
but we must not, repay in kind
what has been done to us.
Instead we must try and find
the way that is so hard,
and reach out our loving hands
to find some friendship now.
There can be no more healing thing
than opening wide our eyes
and seeing that most other folk
are really just like us.


David wrote this poem a year after his step daughter was killed in the London Bombings of 2005

Anonymous said...

"You all have missed the point. The BASIC BELIEFS have never changed."

What exactly are those BASIC BELIEFS that have never changed?

It can't be blood transfusions, because before the Watchtower changed it mind about vaccinations being "of the devil", it was OK to have blood transfusions.

It can't be organ transplats because they are OK now when once they were considered "cannibalism".

It can't be the Generation of 1914 because the Watchtower's definition of "generation" has been altered several times as those old enough to recognize Jesus had come (even if it was in secret) in 1914 has died out. An adult in 1914 would be between 115-160 years old now.

It must be be that Armageddon is coming so soon now that a young people graduating high school shouldn't plan on having careers! Because those who were young Witnesses in the 1950s and 60s heard exactly the same talk. These people are 65+ now. The one's who took the Watchtower's advice then now live around the poverty line dependent upon the US government for minimum Social Security income, Medicaid and low-income housing listening to their grandchildren being urged to take the same course - because the end is so near.
That's GOT to be it - the unchanging BASIC BELIEF of Jehovah's Witnesses.

Voice of Reason said...

"'You all have missed the point. The BASIC BELIEFS have never changed.'"

"What exactly are those BASIC BELIEFS that have never changed?"

The only ones that matter. Jehovah is God and Jesus is his son. Nothing else matters.

"It can't be blood transfusions, because before the Watchtower changed it mind about vaccinations being "of the devil", it was OK to have blood transfusions."

No, it was not ok to have blood transfusions. It was never ok to have them. Just because they were not taught against does not mean it was OK to have them.

And the Watchtower did not change its mind about vaccinations because it never wrote against them.

"It can't be organ transplats because they are OK now when once they were considered "cannibalism"."

They have always been OK and not forbidden. And it still is cannibalism.

"It can't be the Generation of 1914 because the Watchtower's definition of "generation" has been altered several times"

So what of it? Jesus still became king in 1914.


"It must be be that Armageddon is coming so soon now that a young people graduating high school shouldn't plan on having careers! "

Well, forget the MBA, because an investment banker career is out anyway.

"Because those who were young Witnesses in the 1950s and 60s heard exactly the same talk. These people are 65+ now."

What's your point? Are you saying that the end should have come sooner? Not our fault.


" The one's who took the Watchtower's advice then now live around the poverty line dependent upon the US government"

Not true. The ones who took the Watchtower's advice, i.e. Jehovah's direction, have no debt, live simple lives and are not worried about the problems of the world.



" for minimum Social Security income, Medicaid and low-income housing listening to their grandchildren being urged to take the same course - because the end is so near."

Is that a problem?

"That's GOT to be it - the unchanging BASIC BELIEF of Jehovah's Witnesses."

Except that those are not beliefs of Jehovah's Witnesses.

tohsibor said...

Voice of Reason said...

"The only ones that matter. Jehovah is God and Jesus is his son. Nothing else matters."

Really...According to whom or what? Not according to scriptures. You appear to have your own set of rules and guidelines for truth.

tohsibor said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
tohsibor said...

Voice of Reason said...
"Except that those are not beliefs of Jehovah's Witnesses."

Some are or were beliefs held by Jehovah's Witnesses and/or the organization behind Jehovah's Witnesses. Other statements may not be beliefs, but the end results of following the direction and guidance of the Faithful and Discrete Slave Class of Jehovah's Witnesses who have voices their thoughts and opinions through the pages of the Watchtower magazine.

You led a simple life and had no debt...Great. By following the direction of the organization behind Jehovah's Witnesses has not harmed you yet...Fantastic. I wish you health and happiness. However, there are those out there who have been hurt, permanently hurt, a lifetime hurt, irreversibly hurt from following the teaching behind Jehovah's Witnesses.

Let's take the example of keeping a simple life. You have no debt. How about Jehovah's Witnesses who started with no debt and have been working part time so they can spend the majority of their time in the ministry as defined by the organization behind Jehovah’s Witnesses. These people are befallen with serious illness or an accident, but now have no health insurance. They are suddenly in tens to possibly hundreds of thousands in debt. Why? Were they not living a 'simple' life?

Voice of Reason said...

"Really...According to whom or what? Not according to scriptures. You appear to have your own set of rules and guidelines for truth."

Yeah, so? Got a problem with it?

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...
Although I do enjoy reading this blog from time to time, actually almost daily, I fail to understand why so many who leave the Jehovah’s Witness organization seem to find it necessary to go after them and their teachings with such vigor.

Perhaps the answer concerns the fact that JW's faithful and discreet slave class CLAIM to be the ONE and ONLY organisation on earth today through whom God is dealing with mankind.As such it is reasonable their theology, history and practices should be examined against the Bible and Christian history to ascertain if they really do have the ONLY TRUTH as they claim.

Anonymous said...

Voice of Reason:

Your comments regarding organ transplants and vaccinations are not true.

Please apologize to your audience for not telling the truth. This will greatly increase your credibility.

Receiving an organ transplant was a disfellowshipping offense from 1967 to 1980.

Regarding the vaccines, many JW's who were children during the vaccine ban have the acid scars on their arms. They would have their arms burned with acid, to mimmick the scar of the vaccine.

Voice of Reason said...

anon said:
"Your comments regarding organ transplants and vaccinations are not true.
Receiving an organ transplant was a disfellowshipping offense from 1967 to 1980."

Where is your evidence of that? I have not seen any.

"Regarding the vaccines, many JW's who were children during the vaccine ban have the acid scars on their arms. They would have their arms burned with acid, to mimmick the scar of the vaccine. "

Yeah, so? That was their choice so what does that have to do with the religion?

chocolatepuddingeyes said...

Voice of Reason said...

Yeah, so? Got a problem with it?



David Puddy.....wearing his 8 ball jacket.

Anonymous said...

Voice of Reason wrote: "Where is your evidence of that? I have not seen any."

You have not seen any? Or, is it you won't examine any?

I have the evidence. Do you really want to see it? You have led me to believe that you are not sincere. A Google search would have brought up the references in the Watchtower magazine.

I have listed them below for your convenience. I have personally read them from the WT Library. However, please verify the articles.

-----

The ban on organ transplants began in 1967 and it was lifted in 1980. The Watchtower, Nov. 15,
1967, p. 702; The Watchtower, March 15, 1980, p. 31

Voice of Reason said...

"The ban on organ transplants began in 1967 and it was lifted in 1980. The Watchtower, Nov. 15,
1967, p. 702; The Watchtower, March 15, 1980, p. 31"

I do not agree that the 1967W amounted to a ban.

Anonymous said...

It doesn't matter if you agree. The persons who lived through the ban have given their eye-witness testimony.

Further, when the Watchtower magazine says one thing, and then prints another article that says that it not a matter to be pursued judicially, this means it previously WAS a matter that was pursued judicially. Are you a new JW? Stick around, you'll see for yourself. Or, just ask an elder.

Regarding the vaccinations, the reference to look up is as follows:

Golden Age magazine, Feb. 4, 1931"reasons why vaccination is
unscriptural." "vaccination is a direct violation of the everlasting covenant that God made with Noah after the flood" (page 293), "Vaccination has never saved a human life. It does
not prevent smallpox."

The articles published on both topics were not wisdom from above. They were the opinions and unique interpretations of Scripture from imperfect humans. These types of things continue down until our day.

Thankfully, most of their erros are not life and death matters, like the ones we're discussing.

Anonymous said...

This is not a ban?

------

*** w67 11/15 p. 702 Questions From Readers ***

"Those who submit to such operations are thus living off the flesh of another human. That is cannibalistic. However, in allowing man to eat animal flesh Jehovah God did not grant permission for humans to try to perpetuate their lives by cannibalistically taking into their bodies human flesh, whether chewed or in the form of whole organs or body parts taken from others."

Dude, seriously, let's talk like gentlemen and not play games with one another. Are we to play word games again?

Would you prefer that I state it like this: The organization condemned organ transplants in 1967, but in 1980 said these were now a conscience matter."

If that sounds better, fine. It's the same thing. JWs do not make their own rules. They follow the organization. If you can imagine a JW reading the 1967 article in 1967 and concluding that receiving an organ transplant was perfectly OK, I'm not sure how to proceed with the discussion.

For the benefit of all non-JWs, the 1967 article will suffice as testimony to the world of the Quackery that has been printed in the JW publications over the years. We need not argue over words.

Ben Dover said...

You are arguing with a troll. He just wants to incite you to anger so he can say you are an evil apostate and your responses prove it.

have you analyzed his responses? They have no substance. How can 'So What?', 'No it isn't', 'You got a better idea?' be classified as an intelligent argument?

Ignore him. His responses are out there for all to see and judge for themselves.

Ignore him, please.

Patricia Burns said...

The Lord God of Israel has VISITED (Lk.1:68 below).

In Jesus dwells ALL the fullness of the Godhead bodily (Col.2:9 below) -

o God the Father
o The Holy Spirit of God the Father
o The Word of God the Father


The only begotten son of God the Father (Jn.1:14 below), Jesus (the Word made flesh which dwelt among us - Jn.1:1, Jn.1:14 below), His beloved Son (Matt.3:17 below), was conceived of the Holy Ghost (Matt.1:20 below).

God the Father conceived within Mary (blessed among women) His very Word through His very Holy Spirit (Matt.1:20 below).


Col.2:9 For in him dwelleth ALL the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Jn.1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, (Matt.1:20, Matt.3:17 below)) full of grace and truth.

Jn.1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God (Re.1:6, Lk.1:47 below).

Re.1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God (Jn.1:1 above) AND his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Lk.1:47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour (Jn.1:14, Jn.1:1, Re.1:6 above).

Lk.1:68 Blessed [be] the Lord God of Israel; for he hath VISITED and redeemed his people,

Matt.3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son (Matt.1:20 below), in whom I am well pleased.

Matt.1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost (Jn.1:14, Matt.3:17 above).



Patricia © Bible Prophecy on the Web
Author of the self-study aid, The Book of Revelation Explained © 1982
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BibleProphecy

Anonymous said...

Obviously, Voice, you are younger than I am.

PERSONAL EXPERIENCE: I was DENIED ADMISSION by the Los Angeles County School system because my JW parent steadfastly refused to allow me to be inoculated on the basis of WTBTS teachings about vaccinations. At the height of the polio epidemic in America my family moved to a school district which did not require proof of vaccinations in order to attend public school.

The Society did not change it's position on the evils of vaccinations until the Salk Vaccine was virtually wiping out polio and proving that - contrary to the Watchtower - vaccines were effective.

Who knows how many JW's children died or were crippled because their parents followed the WTBTS' 'Godly wisdom'?

Anonymous said...

Voice "The only ones that matter. Jehovah is God and Jesus is his son. Nothing else matters."

That certainly is basic. Do you recognize that those statements can be made by almost every other Christian religion? Pentacostals say that. So do Lutherans, Presbyterians, Baptists, Methodits...

If that's all there is, then why are you chose to be a Jehovah's Witness? There's got to be more.

Anonymous said...

Just wondering...

One of the 'basic beliefs' of the first Christians was to keep the Sabbath. Why don't JW's do that?

Caring for the widows and orphans is as basic as Jesus. Si why is it that every congregation has an ecclesiastical tribunal [aka 'Judicial Committee'], like the Sanhedrin that tried Christ, but has nothing set up to care for the needy as Jesus commanded his disciples?

Voice of Reason said...

"It doesn't matter if you agree. The persons who lived through the ban have given their eye-witness testimony."

And that is their personal viewpoint because they were followers of the Society. And it does matter that I don't agree that it was not a ban because I determine what is banned or not for myself.


"Further, when the Watchtower magazine says one thing, and then prints another article that says that it not a matter to be pursued judicially, this means it previously WAS a matter that was pursued judicially."

No, it simply means that certain elders and others made it an issue. But since it was never a biblical issue, it was not and could not be banned.


" Are you a new JW? Stick around, you'll see for yourself. Or, just ask an elder."

Did I ever say that I cared what elders think about it?


"Regarding the vaccinations, the reference to look up is as follows:
Golden Age magazine, Feb. 4, 1931"

And that is the opinion of the writer and does not make it banned. If people want to follow it they could, just as they can now. WE have freedom. WE are free to follow something if we want or if we don't want to.

"The articles published on both topics were not wisdom from above. They were the opinions and unique interpretations of Scripture from imperfect humans. These types of things continue down until our day."

Yes, they were the opinions of the writers and not of the governing body as there was not one in 1931 and 1967. And no they do not continue. But if they did, what does it matter. That is no reason to be anti-JW and make me your enemy. If you want to believe that they are the opinions of the writers, do so. I do. But I am not antiJW because of it.

"Thankfully, most of their erros are not life and death matters, like the ones we're discussing. "

Nothing is a life and death matter as all JWs have life since we have Jesus.

Voice of Reason said...

This is not a ban?
*** w67 11/15 p. 702 Questions From Readers ***"

No, that is not a ban.

"Those who submit to such operations are thus living off the flesh of another human. That is cannibalistic. "

Where do you get the idea that doing so is a ban?

"However, in allowing man to eat animal flesh Jehovah God did not grant permission for humans to try to perpetuate their lives by cannibalistically taking into their bodies human flesh, whether chewed or in the form of whole organs or body parts taken from others."

That is not a scriptural ban. No scriptures are mentioned in either place.

"Dude, seriously, let's talk like gentlemen and not play games with one another. Are we to play word games again?"

No word games here. The writers can write something, but we are free to accept it or not. I choose not to accept that it is a ban, and you freely chose that it is.

"Would you prefer that I state it like this: The organization condemned organ transplants in 1967, but in 1980 said these were now a conscience matter."

You would still be wrong. Because the "organization" is not the writers of the publications, such as Fred Franz. If there were a ban, then it would have been stated over and over again.

"If that sounds better, fine. It's the same thing. JWs do not make their own rules. They follow the organization. "

That is right. That is why it is not a ban because we don't have rules.

"If you can imagine a JW reading the 1967 article in 1967 and concluding that receiving an organ transplant was perfectly OK, I'm not sure how to proceed with the discussion."

I would have read it and done like I do with the articles today. If I agree, I agree, if I don't then I don't.

"For the benefit of all non-JWs, the 1967 article will suffice as testimony to the world of the Quackery that has been printed in the JW publications over the years. We need not argue over words. "

There is no arguing over anything. You admit that you worship the Watchtower, I state that I don't.

Voice of Reason said...

"PERSONAL EXPERIENCE: I was DENIED ADMISSION by the Los Angeles County School system because my JW parent steadfastly refused to allow me to be inoculated on the basis of WTBTS teachings about vaccinations."

You, yourself, said, it. It is your personal experience, not a teaching of Jehovah's Witnesses.

Your parents made choices on what they believed, not what Jehovah's Witnesses teach from the Bible.

You, like so many other anti's, get that confused.


" At the height of the polio epidemic in America my family moved to a school district which did not require proof of vaccinations in order to attend public school."

So again, they made choices.

"The Society did not change it's position on the evils of vaccinations until the Salk Vaccine was virtually wiping out polio and proving that - contrary to the Watchtower - vaccines were effective."

The Society never had a position until 1952 where they said that they have no position.

"Who knows how many JW's children died or were crippled because their parents followed the WTBTS' 'Godly wisdom'?"

Well, since the WTBTS had no position on that and still does not, there was and is nothing to follow.

Voice of Reason said...

"Voice "The only ones that matter. Jehovah is God and Jesus is his son. Nothing else matters."
That certainly is basic."

Well, that is all that the prophesies state.

" Do you recognize that those statements can be made by almost every other Christian religion? Pentacostals say that. So do Lutherans, Presbyterians, Baptists, Methodits..."

But they don't. They believe that the son is the Father or is God.

"If that's all there is, then why are you chose to be a Jehovah's Witness? There's got to be more. "

Because there is more than what the Hebrew Prophesies (the all scripture that is inspired) give. There is the reason of the Christian congregation existed in the first century.

Voice of Reason said...

"One of the 'basic beliefs' of the first Christians was to keep the Sabbath. Why don't JW's do that?"

Huh? Where do you find that? Acts 15 makes it clear that the law is no more and since the sabbath was not prior to the law, it is no more.

"Caring for the widows and orphans is as basic as Jesus."

Well, when there are those and when there are things to be done for them. Now they can get jobs and assistance.

"why is it that every congregation has an ecclesiastical tribunal [aka 'Judicial Committee'], like the Sanhedrin that tried Christ, but has nothing set up to care for the needy as Jesus commanded his disciples?"

The judicial committes are like the courts, but as for helping that is there but on a voluntary basis and that is private.

Anonymous said...

In my experience, JWs have replaced the Mosaic Law with a new law: The Watchtower Law.

Just flip through the Elder Book online and you can get a feel for the hundreds of rules.

When you are baptized into their organization, you are agreeing to abide by rules you're not even aware of. These rules are not in the Bible, they are in the Elders Book, which is not available to publishers.

Voice of Reason said...

"In my experience, JWs have replaced the Mosaic Law with a new law: The Watchtower Law."

In my experience, the Watchtower Law exists in the mind of the antiJWs only.

"Just flip through the Elder Book online and you can get a feel for the hundreds of rules."

And that applies to them only.

"When you are baptized into their organization, you are agreeing to abide by rules you're not even aware of. These rules are not in the Bible, they are in the Elders Book, which is not available to publishers."

No, not true. There are no rules. If they are not known, then they would not be things that the publishers would be expected to follow.

J said...

VoR finally states something that truly reflects a 'Voice of Reason'.

Quote:
"I don't understand is why people complain that the "Watchtower doctrines" have changed"

"If they didn't change, then that means that the original writer had everything correct. How would that happen?"

True, true, how could the Watchtower writers ever get anything right? I mean they have been bumbling around like clowns for years.

Just another reason not to listen to what they have to say TODAY.

J said...

VoR:
"Consider that when people from other religions become JWs, they do not attack their former religions."

Is that Purple Haze? Beasters? Schwag?

Perhaps just a tightly rolled Watchtower?

Anonymous said...

VoR: Jumping the Shark Since 2008

Anonymous said...

Voice of Unreason wrote: "There are no rules. If they are not known, then they would not be things that the publishers would be expected to follow."

You are truly blind. Is it Satan that has blinded your mind?

kimmy jo said...

'voice of reason' IS 'ronde'....FULL on conflict and VERY UNREASONABLE.

check out the past comments under the name 'ronde' you can see and judge for yourself.

troll, just a troll.

IGNORE it's line by line nonsense, impoverished thoughts, void of all reason despite it's new ID.

Anonymous said...

"If you left, for whatever the reason, that’s fine. But why do you seemingly have the obsession of pointing out their error."

Hm?

Are you saying I/we are 'obessed' with preaching the truth and exposing false religion but you're not just because you're a Jehovah's Witness and you preach against Christendom?

Let me see...Jehovah's Witnesses give up millions of hours each year preaching against this world's false religions, right?

But when I/we take the time to point out the falsehoods of Jehovah's Witnesses practice it's nothing but the obession of bitter people?

Anonymous said...

VOICE SAYS:

"...why [do] people complain that the "Watchtower doctrines" have changed over the years? If they didn't change, then that means that the original writer had everything correct".

I'm just a little bit confused. Voice, what you're saying saying is that being wrong is actually proof of being right? Uhhhh.

Where does that leave the bible?

Voice of Reason said...

"'...why [do] people complain that the "Watchtower doctrines" have changed over the years? If they didn't change, then that means that the original writer had everything correct.'
I'm just a little bit confused. Voice, what you're saying saying is that being wrong is actually proof of being right? Uhhhh.
Where does that leave the bible?"

Of course you are confused, because you don't have the holy spirit.

I am saying that if you expected no changes that would mean that the July 1879 Issue of the Watchtower would have to be an Insight type book with everything we know now and more.

How would Russell know all of those things? He would have to be inspired beyond any Bible writer has been because he would have more than the Bible.

And then we would all be Russellites because we would be following his words.

But we are not.

That is why I do not find a problem with things changing. The religion is much more than Russell.

Anonymous said...

Indeed. JW beliefs are like shifting sands.

The Bible was completed 2000 years ago. It doesn't change.

Truth doesn't change.

Jehovah is a God of order, not disorder.

JW beliefs change again and again. Their publications have expiration dates.

"The truth will set you free." - J. Christ

Voice of Reason said...

"JW beliefs change again and again. Their publications have expiration dates."

Anything that has changed is because the Bible is not specific on it as it has been something that has occurred after the Bible was written.

Anonymous said...

VoR said: "Anything that has changed is because the Bible is not specific on it as it has been something that has occurred after the Bible was written."

Dude, it's past your bedtime. Give it a break. You're making JWs look bad. I'll forget you put the response above in writing.

Wrong on so many levels. I don't even know where to start.

Get some rest, us apostates will return tomorrow to deliver the truth to those that will listen.

Anonymous said...

"I fail to understand why so many who leave the Jehovah’s Witness organization seem to find it necessary to go after them and their teachings with such vigor."

It may help you to understand if your read Romans 3:4 "Let God be true though every man a liar". Think about that. These people who loyal followers of the WTBTS label 'apostate' and shun like lepers willingly pay a heavy price for actually following God's holy word rather than the pronouncements of man-made [and therefore falible]religion.

I know you're going to give us the "wait upon Jehovah" and the Organization will get it right. (Meaning "believe the lie we tell you until otherwise notified".) No doubt you have heard of examples of some JW who who 'waited upon Jehovah' (aka the Organization) and how he/she was somehow rewarded by Jehovah for what amounts to ignoring God's word and spreading the lie.

Ask yourself:

Is it true that God gives good rewards those who practice and/or preach a lie just because it's being told by the Governing Body?

If that's so then wouldn't the members of what you call 'false religion' be receiving those same good rewards from Jehovah? After all they too stay with their church while "waiting" for God to make changes in it.

Anonymous said...

"Because those who were young Witnesses in the 1950s and 60s heard exactly the same talk. These people are 65+ now."

VOICE: "What's your point? Are you saying that the end should have come sooner? Not our fault."

No, it certainly isn't your fault that Armageddon hasn't come yet. If it were up to you you'd have had the whole human race wiped off the face of the earth yesterday!

Thank God He has other ideas.

Anonymous said...

"Our message and teachings have not changed. Things like the generation are not our message and teachings. That is not relevant to our message."

Voice, Don't listen to us. Take this matter straight to the elders of your congregation and ask them whether the generation of 1914 is "relevant to our message". The WT's CD ROM will show that Jesus CAME TO EARTH (secretly) IN 1914 AND FOUND THEM TEACHING THE TRUTH AND THEREFORE HE APPOINTED THEM AS HIS OWN 'REPRESENTATIVES' ON EARTH WHILE HE WENT BACK TO HEAVEN.

When you do this take the time to look over the front cover of Zion's Watchtower/The Watchtower (I'm not sure when they changed the name.) You'll see crown and cross and signs of the trinity. If what the GB says about having been chosen in 1914 because of their 'truth', then those were the things Jesus approved of. Any repudiation of those beliefs would be moving AWAY from what they know to be approved of by Christ Jesus, wouldn't it?

Patricia Burns said...

The battle of Armageddon is a Plague event.

Trumpet events follow Seal events followed by Plague events.

Seal events have not yet concluded.

At the Sixth Plague the way is PREPARED for the soon coming battle of Armageddon, and the Dragon and the beast and the false prophet, and their armies are gathered together (by Spiritual forces) into "a place" for the battle (Re.16:12-16, Jer 51:36, Jer.51:49, Isa.63:2-3).

After the Seventh, and final, PLAGUE, after the great city Babylon comes into remembrance before God, after the fall of that great city Babylon (Re.16:17-21, Revelation chapter 18), the battle of Armageddon will be fought.

The battle will be fought after the marriage of the Lamb has taken place in heaven. The church (1 Cor.10:32) throughout all ages (His wife) has made herself ready (Re.19:17) and are the armies of the Lord that accompanies Him to the battle (Re.19:14).

The end of the battle of Armageddon will mark the beginning of the Millennium.

Directly after the battle of Armageddon (Re.19:11-21) is fought, and after the beast and the false prophet are taken in the battle and cast into the lake of fire (Re.19:20), the Lord will stand upon the mount of Olives (Zech.14:4).

Saints of the most High (Dan.7:22), the Lamb’s wife, will live AND reign with Him throughout the Millennium, the thousand years (Re.20:4).

After the Millennium the battle of Gog and Magog is fought.




Patricia © Bible Prophecy on the Web
Author of the self-study aid, The Book of Revelation Explained © 1982
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BibleProphecy

Anonymous said...

Is 'Patricia Burns' a bot? That was a weird post, was it not?

Voice of Reason said...

"Is it true that God gives good rewards those who practice and/or preach a lie just because it's being told by the Governing Body?"

Except that we are not practicing and preaching a lie as a group. Sure you can find individuals that are, but that is what the meetings are for to set them right.

Voice of Reason said...

"Voice, Don't listen to us. Take this matter straight to the elders of your congregation and ask them whether the generation of 1914 is "relevant to our message". "

They will say that it is not because that only comes up when it was studied in that particular lesson.

Why would you expect the body of elders to be a certain way?

"The WT's CD ROM will show that Jesus CAME TO EARTH (secretly) IN 1914 AND FOUND THEM TEACHING THE TRUTH AND THEREFORE HE APPOINTED THEM AS HIS OWN 'REPRESENTATIVES' ON EARTH WHILE HE WENT BACK TO HEAVEN."

No, it does not say that. Jesus did not come to earth in 1914.

"When you do this take the time to look over the front cover of Zion's Watchtower/The Watchtower (I'm not sure when they changed the name.) You'll see crown and cross and signs of the trinity."

So what? Jesus did not consider actions, he considered what they will be doing.

" If what the GB says about having been chosen in 1914 because of their 'truth', then those were the things Jesus approved of."

We do not believe anyone was chosen in 1914. We believe that Matt 24:45-47 says Jesus appointed the FDS over his belongings. In 1914 the master arrived and found them (because there was not anyone else doing so) providing spiritual food. That is a fact.

" Any repudiation of those beliefs would be moving AWAY from what they know to be approved of by Christ Jesus, wouldn't it? "

No. Jesus did not judge anything by any particular beliefs. Let me repeat. The scripture says "to give them their food at the proper time?" It does not say anything about the food being correct at that point in time.

Then it says "Happy is that slave if his master on arriving finds him doing so"

The master found them doing so. Doing what "give them their food at the proper time"

That is because no one else was doing so.

Anonymous said...

Ronde wrote: "That is a fact."

We'll need evidence. Our very lives are at stake.

Voice of Reason said...

"Is 'Patricia Burns' a bot? That was a weird post, was it not? "

All posts on this blog are weird.

Anonymous said...

Common ground!

Anonymous said...

If anyone is interested in a Jehovah's Witness viewpoint on the matter of vaccinations and transplants, they might find this article on vaccinations and this article on organ transplants interesting.

Anonymous said...

Anon wrote: "If anyone is interested in a Jehovah's Witness viewpoint on the matter of vaccinations and transplants, they might find this article on vaccinations and this article on organ transplants interesting."

Yeah, you could read all of that. The important question to ask the next JW you talk to is this: Would you let your child die, if the doctor told you your child needs a blood transfusion?

End of discussion.

Religious fanaticism, distortion of Scripture, cult of death.

Voice of Reason said...

"The important question to ask the next JW you talk to is this: Would you let your child die, if the doctor told you your child needs a blood transfusion?"

I would say: Get me a new doctor.

The doctor is the one letting the child die, not the parent.

Anonymous said...

VoR/Ronde/Anon wrote: "The doctor is the one letting the child die, not the parent."

The doctors follow the wished of the parent. So, the JW parent is killing the baby, for following a Satanic theology.

Voice of Reason said...

Someone said:
"The doctors follow the wished of the parent. So, the JW parent is killing the baby, for following a Satanic theology."

and the Voice of Reason tries to reason with that someone:

And there are doctors who can save babies and others without blood. So if telling a doctor that one does not wish to receive blood is killing the baby, then get another doctor, because there are ones who can save them without it.