The Governing Body is Unsure:
However, genuine anointed Christians do not demand special attention. They do not believe that their being of the anointed gives them special "insights," beyond what even some experienced members of the great crowd may have.
*** w05 1/15 p. 15 par. 21 Christ—The Focus of Prophecy ***Only his faithful anointed disciples would discern his royal presence. In the next article, we will see how that insight would have a profound effect on them, culminating in the gathering of millions who would become Jesus’ earthly subjects
*** ip-2 chap. 15 p. 228 par. 23 The Barren Woman Rejoices ***23 Verse 13 of Isaiah chapter 54 provides the key—all will be “taught by Jehovah.” Jesus himself applied the words of this verse to his anointed followers. (John 6:45) The prophet Daniel foretold that during this “time of the end,” the anointed would be blessed with an abundance of true knowledge and spiritual insight. (Daniel 12:3, 4) Such insight has enabled them to spearhead the greatest educational campaign in history, spreading divine teaching in all the earth. (Matthew 24:14) At the same time, such insight has helped them to see the difference between true religion and false. Isaiah 54:12 mentions “boundaries of delightsome stones.” Since 1919, Jehovah has given the anointed an ever clearer understanding of the boundaries—the lines of spiritual demarcation—setting them apart from false religion and ungodly elements of the world. (Ezekiel 44:23; John 17:14; James 1:27) They are thus set apart as God’s own people.
*** w00 5/15 p. 11 par. 6 Pay Attention to God’s Prophetic Word for Our Day ***6 In this time of the end, many faithful Christians have ‘roved about’ in the pages of God’s Word, the Bible. The result? With Jehovah’s blessing on their efforts, true knowledge has become abundant. For instance, anointed Witnesses of Jehovah have been blessed with insight, enabling them to understand that Jesus Christ became heavenly King in the year 1914.
*** km 3/00 p. 8 par. 4 Studying Daniel’s Prophecy ***4 Prepare well for the study each week, and enjoy participating in it. Appreciate your privilege of associating with Jehovah’s visible organization and benefiting from the insight and understanding provided by his faithful anointed ones.
*** dp chap. 17 p. 292 par. 11 Identifying True Worshipers in the Time of the End ***: “The ones having insight will shine like the brightness of the expanse; and those who are bringing the many to righteousness, like the stars to time indefinite, even forever.” Who are “the ones having insight” today? Again, the evidence points to the same “holy ones of the Supreme One.” After all, who but the faithful anointed remnant had the insight to discern that Michael, the Great Prince, began standing as King in 1914?
*** dp chap. 18 p. 309 par. 7 Jehovah Promises Daniel a Wonderful Reward ***In our own day, the anointed have been blessed with spiritual insight, shining as beacons of truth in this bedarkened world.
*** w98 2/15 p. 19 par. 7 Glorious Freedom Soon for the Children of God ***Meanwhile, God granted his anointed servants, born-again Christians, noteworthy insight.
*** w87 7/1 p. 23 par. 10 Divine Blessings for “the Ones Having Insight” *** “The ones having insight” are clearly the faithful remaining members of the anointed Christian congregation, who are ‘filled with accurate knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual comprehension.
*** w81 3/1 p. 26 Do You Appreciate the “Faithful and Discreet Slave”? ***This indicates that the congregation of Christ’s anointed disciples, those having insight, would be watching for the Master’s return and be found faithfully providing spiritual food at the proper time when he returned.
*** w70 11/15 p. 690 par. 22 The Need to Know What We Worship ***The anointed remnant of “people who are knowing their God” have been the ones that have prevailed, and this due to having insight.
*** w60 2/1 p. 90 par. 37 Part 31—“Your Will Be Done on Earth” ***They act with insight and keep walking in their integrity or blamelessness toward God. Realizing their being anointed with Jehovah’s spirit to preach, they do preach, that they may “impart understanding to many.”
As usual the Governing Body flip flops all over the place. Yet, for some reason, Witnesses keep on believing whatever their latest declaration of "truth" is. Remarkable.
71 comments:
So?
yawn.
Why would anyone in their right mind follow the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses? These men have blood on their hands.
“The Scriptures show that if we are part of any organization that is bloodguilty before God, we must sever our ties with it if we do not want to share in its sins.”
(Rev. 18:4, 24; Mic. 4:3) (United in Worship, 1983, Chap. 20, p. 155, par. 4)
----------
As late as 1975, Witnesses who were hemophiliacs were not allowed to use blood particles in therapy, including blood plasma and derivatives containing blood factors (Awake!, 2/22/75, p.30). The Governing Body later changed its mind. However, they failed to notify the publishers for three years. Then, the June 15, 1978 WT (p. 30) revoked its earlier ban, allowing certain blood particles to be used. Only the hemophiliacs who phoned Brooklyn headquarters between 1975 and 1978 found out they had changed their mind on this issue.
-------
Verdict: BLOODGUILTY
They also are confused when it comes to independent or critical thinking.
*** w57 8/1 p. 469 par. 7 Will You Get to Live on Earth Forever? ***
7 Though not sought by crowds as Jesus was, his followers today are hard-pressed by modern living to find solitude for meditation. In many places in the world simplicity of living has been replaced by a life of complexity, with waking hours crammed with both important and trivial matters. Moreover, people today are developing an aversion to thinking. They fear being alone with their own thoughts. If other people are not around, they fill the void with television, movies, light reading matter, or if they go to the beach or park the portable radio goes too so they will not have to be with their own thoughts. Their thinking must be channeled for them, ready-made by propagandists. This suits Satan’s purpose. He deluges the mass mind with anything and everything but God’s truth. To keep minds from doing godly thinking Satan keeps them busy with thoughts that are either trivial or ungodly. It is tailor-made thinking, and the tailor of it is the Devil. Minds work, but in the way that a horse is led. Independent thinking is difficult, unpopular and even suspect. Thought conformity is the order of our day. To seek solitude for meditation is frowned upon as antisocial and neurotic.—Rev. 16:13, 14.
*** w06 7/15 p. 22 par. 14 Focus on the Goodness of Jehovah’s Organization ***
14 In modern times, a very small number among God’s people have become disgruntled with some aspect of Christian teaching and have murmured against the earthly part of Jehovah’s organization. Why does this happen? Such murmuring is often caused by a lack of understanding of God’s way of doing things. The Creator progressively reveals the truth to his people. Hence, our understanding of the Scriptures is bound to be refined from time to time. The vast majority of Jehovah’s people rejoice over such refinements. A few become “righteous overmuch” and resent the changes. (Ecclesiastes 7:16) Pride may play a role, and some fall into the trap of independent thinking. Whatever the reason, such murmuring is hazardous, since it can draw us back into the world and its ways.
So which is it? Should we fight for or against independent thinking?
http://wtsdissident.blogspot.com/
I used to know an annointed when I was still an active JW. She was rarely at meetings, never went out in service and was too busy selling her herbs to do much else. I never respected her partaking at Memorial, because I knew we wouldn't see her too much the rest of the year. She is young & healthy too. We always just imagined one day she decided she was annointed & just ran with it. Unbelievable. How naieve the sheep are. I guess if you THINK it's true, then it is? Jeez...I am so glad not to be there anymore. No more brainwashing/mind controlling for me, no thanks!
Jehovah's Witnesses are guided by, but not followers of the Governing Body. Any Witnesses will tell you that Christ is head of the congregation.
It is also understood by all the Bible is God's Word, and the Watchtower magazine does not replace it. You could think of a WT article as a written sermon. Since it came from an imperfect human, it will never be 100% correct.
anonymous said..."You could think of a WT article as a written sermon. Since it came from an imperfect human, it will never be 100% correct."
I wonder what would happen if every sermon of a priest, pastor, or minister were written down and examined out of context years latter.
Would you hold them, and their religious group up to the same scrutiny?
No problem with scrutiny of denominations. They don't proclaim to be God's sole channel. Do you see the difference?
The Bible never changes. Truth does not change.
Watchtower beliefs change.
What we need is proof that JWs are special, different, chosen by God.
That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.
JWs believe they were SELECTED BY GOD in 1918/1919. We need proof.
I would suggest that you listen to the District convention 2008 Guided by God's Holy spirit.
That is only way to learn about this topic. Finding quotes from the Watchtower and taking them out of context is not how to learn about Jehovah's Witnesses.
There is no need to take anything out of context.
JW believe the following:
- All other churches are 'The Harlot'
- Jehovah will soon kill millions of Chinese babies
- People who leave and join other religions will be treates as dead, by active JWs.
- Oral sex between married persons is wrong
- Transfusions of hemoglobin are OK, but transfusions of plasma are wrong
- Lions were designed to eat grass, but then two people ate some fruit, and now lions eat meat
- Voting is a 'conscience matter', but if a JW votes for Obama, he will be excommunicated
What else?
Shawn and others: You would not know an independent thought if one came out and said Boo to you.
BOO!!!!!!!
"JW believe the following:
- All other churches are 'The Harlot'"
True
"- Jehovah will soon kill millions of Chinese babies"
True, but not Chinese only, but in the whole world.
"- People who leave and join other religions will be treates as dead, by active JWs."
That is what they want isn't it?
"- Oral sex between married persons is wrong"
Wrong. Says who? Nobody's business.
"- Transfusions of hemoglobin are OK, but transfusions of plasma are wrong"
wrong. Any fractions of fractions is up to the person.
"- Lions were designed to eat grass, but then two people ate some fruit, and now lions eat meat"
Well, if you say so.
"- Voting is a 'conscience matter', but if a JW votes for Obama, he will be excommunicated"
Wrong. Voting for NON-POLITICAL things is a conscience matter. Voting for political things makes one in support of that political party.
"What else?"
Well, you made it up.
Voice of Unreason wrote: "Any fractions of fractions is up to the person."
Well, now we know for sure that he is a troll.
"anonymous said... JW believe the following:
-Lions were designed to eat grass, but then two people ate some fruit, and now lions eat meat"
Amazing! You twisted JW beliefs and the Bible itself in that one line alone!
There is no reference given for the first quote, can someone supply it please.
"However, genuine anointed Christians do not demand special attention. They do not believe that their being of the anointed gives them special "insights," beyond what even some experienced members of the great crowd may have."
"Sheeplike said...
I wonder what would happen if every sermon of a priest, pastor, or minister were written down and examined out of context years latter.
Would you hold them, and their religious group up to the same scrutiny?"
I would if they claimed to be 'God's sole channel' of communication.
I would if they said that disagreeing with them was the same as disagreeing with Christ.
*** w07 4/1 p. 22 par. 5 Loyal to Christ and His Faithful Slave ***
“On arriving” to inspect the “slave” in 1918, Christ found a spirit-anointed remnant of faithful disciples who since 1879 had been using this journal and other Bible-based publications to provide spiritual “food at the proper time.” He acknowledged them as his collective instrument, or “slave,” and in 1919 entrusted them with the management of all his earthly belongings.
8 The slave’s responsibilities include the supervision of the material facilities used by Christ’s followers to carry out their Christian activities, such as the world headquarters and branch offices of Jehovah’s Witnesses, as well as their places of worship—Kingdom Halls and Assembly Halls—throughout the world. More important, the slave also oversees spiritually upbuilding programs of Bible study at weekly meetings and periodic assemblies and conventions. At these gatherings, information on the fulfillment of Bible prophecies is dispensed, and timely direction on how to apply Bible principles in daily life is given.
11 As in early Christian times, a small group of spirit-anointed overseers make up the Governing Body of Christ’s followers on earth today. By means of his “right hand” of applied power, Christ, the Head of the congregation, directs these faithful men as they supervise the Kingdom work. (Revelation 1:16, 20) In his life story, Albert Schroeder, a longtime member of the Governing Body who recently finished his earthly course, wrote: “The Governing Body meets every Wednesday, opening the meeting with prayer and asking for the direction of Jehovah’s spirit. A real effort is made to see that every matter that is handled and every decision that is made is in harmony with God’s Word the Bible.” We can have confidence in such faithful anointed Christians. Regarding them in particular, we should heed the apostle Paul’s injunction: “Be obedient to those who are taking the lead among you and be submissive, for they are keeping watch over your souls.”—Hebrews 13:17.
12 A fundamental reason for showing proper respect for the faithful slave class is that by so doing, we are in fact showing respect for the Master, Jesus Christ. Paul wrote of the anointed ones: “He that was called when a freeman is a slave of Christ. You were bought with a price.” (1 Corinthians 7:22, 23; Ephesians 6:6) Therefore, when we loyally submit to the direction of the faithful slave and its Governing Body, we are submitting to Christ, the slave’s Master. Our showing due respect for the instrument Christ is using to manage his earthly belongings is one way in which we “openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.”—Philippians 2:11.
13 Another Scriptural reason for showing respect for the faithful slave is that anointed Christians on earth are figuratively spoken of as a “temple” that Jehovah inhabits “by spirit.” As such, they are “holy.” (1 Corinthians 3:16, 17; Ephesians 2:19-22) It is to this holy temple class that Jesus has entrusted his earthly belongings, which means that certain rights and responsibilities within the Christian congregation belong exclusively to this collective slave. For this reason, all in the congregation view it as their sacred duty to follow and uphold the direction coming from the faithful slave and its Governing Body. Indeed, the “other sheep” count it a real privilege to assist the slave class in caring for the Master’s interests.—John 10:16.
14 The humble submission of the other sheep to the anointed members of spiritual Israel was foretold in the prophecy of Isaiah: “This is what Jehovah has said: ‘The unpaid laborers of Egypt and the merchants of Ethiopia and the Sabeans, tall men, will themselves come over even to you, and yours they will become. Behind you they will walk; in fetters they will come over, and to you they will bow down. To you they will pray, saying, “Indeed God is in union with you, and there is no one else; there is no other God.”’” (Isaiah 45:14) Symbolically, the other sheep today walk behind the anointed slave class and its Governing Body, following their leadership. As “unpaid laborers,” the other sheep willingly expend their physical strength and their resources in support of the worldwide preaching work that Christ assigned to his anointed followers on earth.—Acts 1:8; Revelation 12:17.
15 The other sheep are happy and grateful to serve Jehovah under the oversight of the slave class and its Governing Body. They recognize the anointed as members of “the Israel of God.” (Galatians 6:16) As figurative “strangers” and “foreigners” associated with spiritual Israel, they joyfully serve as “farmers” and “vinedressers” under the direction of the anointed, the “priests of Jehovah” and ‘ministers of God.’ (Isaiah 61:5, 6) They zealously share in preaching this good news of the Kingdom and in making disciples of people of all the nations. They give wholehearted assistance to the slave class in shepherding and nurturing newly found sheeplike ones.
16 The other sheep recognize that they have greatly benefited from the diligent efforts of the faithful slave in supplying them with timely spiritual food. They humbly acknowledge that were it not for the faithful and discreet slave, they would know little or nothing of precious Bible truths, such as Jehovah’s sovereignty, the sanctification of his name, the Kingdom, the new heavens and new earth, the soul, the condition of the dead, and the true identity of Jehovah, his Son, and the holy spirit. Out of sheer gratitude and loyalty, the other sheep lovingly support Christ’s anointed “brothers” on the earth during this time of the end.—Matthew 25:40.
***
How arrogant!...and that's just a quote from one article.
See, even if you say "We're not inspired", you can't claim divine backing while issuing one failed prophesy after another.
A claim this bold must be given with evidence. To date, the Watchtower Society has only pointed to dates where nothing happened. They aren't the 'watchman', they are the boy who cried wolf.
Anonymous said...
JWs believe they were SELECTED BY GOD in 1918/1919. We need proof.
This is a claim Ray Franz in his book In Search of Christian Freedom chapter 5 'The Faithful and Discreet Slave' shows convincingly why the 1918/19 claim is unfounded.
"There is no reference given for the first quote, can someone supply it please."
Here you go...
*** w07 5/1 p. 31 Questions From Readers ***
However, genuine anointed Christians do not demand special attention. They do not believe that their being of the anointed gives them special “insights,” beyond what even some experienced members of the great crowd may have.
***
"Do The Annointed Have Special Insight?"
They would like to think they do. The one in my congregation was in his 70's and seems to have forgotten how to shower and do basic hygiene. His clothing was always soiled. Wow, did he stink. All he spoke of was some crazy war he was in!
I guess he gave up all his family during the course of being a JW and so now he only has the cong. and no one dare step in to care for his most basic needs. Talks go over his head. Hmmm...so much for special insight.....poor guy.
There is one common thread in all of these posts that shouts out to be noticed!
"I am a free thinker"
"Don't try and tell me what to do."
"I will do what I think is right, and don't bother me with those Bible restrictions (guide lines)"
"I will not conform"
"Who are you to tell me what to do?"
You have left the Organization or are on your way out because you are rebellious. You are like your Father the Devil, you rebel, won't submit, want to govern your own life with no direction from Jehovah, the Bible or the congregation. This road leads to one conclusion.
You think you are different and free thinking....but you are only conforming to Satans rebellious attitude.
"Here you go...
*** w07 5/1 p. 31 Questions From Readers ***"
That's one to keep handy, thank you Shawn!
"Here you go...
*** w07 5/1 p. 31 Questions From Readers ***"
That's one to keep handy, thank you Shawn!"
I've just realised the probable sub text of this article. I bet it's not a humble acknowledgement of the limits of the abilities of the 'faithful slave' but rather a put-down of any 'anointed' ones (don't forget there are 8,000+) that think they can take issue with the governing body. The real message is probably, if you're in the GB you do have special insight and authority to tell others what to do, but if you're not, you don't, so butt out.
" Anonymous said...
"Here you go...
*** w07 5/1 p. 31 Questions From Readers ***"
That's one to keep handy, thank you Shawn!"
I've just realised the probable sub text of this article. I bet it's not a humble acknowledgement of the limits of the abilities of the 'faithful slave' but rather a put-down of any 'anointed' ones (don't forget there are 8,000+) that think they can take issue with the governing body. The real message is probably, if you're in the GB you do have special insight and authority to tell others what to do, but if you're not, you don't, so butt out."
=================================
That's exactly what the response to the question is.It basically says that someone who decides to partake at the memorial can do so, but that person should not be treated as special.
"That's exactly what the response to the question is.It basically says that someone who decides to partake at the memorial can do so, but that person should not be treated as special."
So...
1. The faithful and discreet slave, scripturally "appointed over all his belongings" does not have special insight.
2. The Governing Body is composed of representative members of the faithful slave.
3. The Governing Body has special insight and is God's channel of communication today.
I suppose you won't go mad if you don't try to keep all three of these doctrines in your head at the same time.
Cheers,
Brian
" Anonymous said...
You have left the Organization or are on your way out because you are rebellious. You are like your Father the Devil, you rebel, won't submit, want to govern your own life with no direction from Jehovah, the Bible or the congregation. This road leads to one conclusion.
You think you are different and free thinking....but you are only conforming to Satans rebellious attitude."
=================================
That's not the point at all! The point is that the Watchtower Society has inserted itself between its members and Christ. The people responding are not necessarily rejecting direction from the Bible, just the Watchtower Society's claim that it has divine backing.
*** w07 4/1 p. 24 pars. 12-13 Loyal to Christ and His Faithful Slave ***
12 A fundamental reason for showing proper respect for the faithful slave class is that by so doing, we are in fact showing respect for the Master, Jesus Christ. Paul wrote of the anointed ones: “He that was called when a freeman is a slave of Christ. You were bought with a price.” (1 Corinthians 7:22, 23; Ephesians 6:6) Therefore, when we loyally submit to the direction of the faithful slave and its Governing Body, we are submitting to Christ, the slave’s Master. Our showing due respect for the instrument Christ is using to manage his earthly belongings is one way in which we “openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.”—Philippians 2:11.
13 Another Scriptural reason for showing respect for the faithful slave is that anointed Christians on earth are figuratively spoken of as a “temple” that Jehovah inhabits “by spirit.” As such, they are “holy.”
***
So from this article we see that the Watchtower Society is requiring the same respect as Christ. The Watchtower Society want you to think that anyone who disagrees with them is 'following Satan', but all that really is is an ad hominem attack on anyone who would dare disagree with them.
Really, making the decision to follow the guidelines in the Bible is very different from submitting to a group of men who have made one false prediction for the end of this system after another. By their use of cult-like control techniques and false prophesy, the Watchtower Society has made a mockery of Christianity.
Many seem to think that leaving the organization means leaving Jehovah God and Jesus. It appears that many seem to think that the organization itself is God.
"when we loyally submit to the direction of the faithful slave and its Governing Body, we are submitting to Christ"
That's a lie, right there. There is no submission required to the faithful slave as a separate body (as shown by the topic at hand), this is just an attempt to make the GB appear scriptural by association.
It's this dishonesty which shows who's children they are.
Cheers,
Brian
" spiritualbrother said...
Many seem to think that leaving the organization means leaving Jehovah God and Jesus. It appears that many seem to think that the organization itself is God."
====================================
Well, since JWs are baptized into the organization, from the perspective of the Watchtower Society, they do see leaving the organization equivalent to leaving God.
*** w85 6/1 p. 30 Subjecting Ourselves to Jehovah by Dedication ***
At the close of the convention baptism talk, the baptism candidates will be in position to answer with depth of understanding and heartfelt appreciation two simple questions that serve to confirm that they recognize the implications of following Christ’s example. The first question is:
On the basis of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, have you repented of your sins and dedicated yourself to Jehovah to do his will?
The second is:
Do you understand that your dedication and baptism identify you as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses in association with God’s spirit-directed organization?
Having answered yes to these questions, candidates are in a right heart condition to undergo Christian baptism.
***
http://wtsdissident.blogspot.com/
Some of you have hit the nail on the head. Once I personally realized that Watchtower held a position in my life that can only be described as idolatry, I had to leave. My conscience would not permit me to be a part of something that removed Christ alone as my Mediator.
The "organization" is viewed as a means of salvation. It is referred to as a "ark" of salvation. Those that "leave the organization" are viewed as doomed, in the eyes of God.
Here’s what JW’s leaders officially teach (quotes pulled in context from w2001, 6/15; w2006, 5/15):
Title: "The Invisible One Directs His People"
“11 Faith helps us to see Jehovah as the one directing his earthly organization. We thus avoid having a critical attitude toward those shouldering responsibility in the congregation.
“It takes faith to recognize that Jehovah is the one teaching us through his earthly organization.
“Just as Noah and his God-fearing family were preserved in the ark, survival of individuals today depends on their faith and their loyal association with the earthly part of Jehovah’s universal organization.”
"There is no reference given for the first quote, can someone supply it please.
"However, genuine anointed Christians do not demand special attention. They do not believe that their being of the anointed gives them special "insights," beyond what even some experienced members of the great crowd may have.""
The district convention maybe.
"*** w07 5/1 p. 31 Questions From Readers ***
However, genuine anointed Christians do not demand special attention. They do not believe that their being of the anointed gives them special “insights,” beyond what even some experienced members of the great crowd may have."
That is just simple reality.
The kings and priests in the past were anointed by having oil poured on their heads. David was anointed long before he became king.
Their anointed did not mean that they were special.
The anointing with the holy spirit is the same way.
"You think you are different and free thinking....but you are only conforming to Satans rebellious attitude."
That is what I have been trying to tell them for years. They actually have no idea what independent thinking is all about but they trumpet it.
"The real message is probably, if you're in the GB you do have special insight and authority to tell others what to do, but if you're not, you don't, so butt out. "
No, that is not the case at all.
Anointing means nothing.
The authority is from the scriptures in the congregational manner. The governing body has no more authority than a body of overseers in the congregation.
The only difference is that the local overseers submit to the ones above them to keep in line with 2 Cor 13:11"
Finally, brothers, continue to rejoice, to be readjusted, to be comforted, to think in agreement, to live peaceably; and the God of love and of peace will be with YOU. "
Think in agreement. That is what the Bible says.
Brian said:
"1. The faithful and discreet slave, scripturally "appointed over all his belongings" does not have special insight."
Why would a slave have special insight? It is the master that has insight. The slave just serves.
"2. The Governing Body is composed of representative members of the faithful slave."
No, the slave is much more than the GB as it is all who share in the teaching work.
"3. The Governing Body has special insight and is God's channel of communication today."
No, they don't have special insight. They just study more, pray more and are in a spiritual environment.
"I suppose you won't go mad if you don't try to keep all three of these doctrines in your head at the same time."
The ones who worship the GB are going mad.
"Many seem to think that leaving the organization means leaving Jehovah God and Jesus. It appears that many seem to think that the organization itself is God. "
No, not at all, but since the organization is made up of 7 million others serving Jehovah and if one leaves it, then that one is all by his/her lonesome, not serving Jehovah with the others.
What does Jehovah think of that? Jehovah has provided Kingdom Hall all over the world and association and literature, etc. He sees no reason to leave what he has provided.
Brian said;
"That's a lie, right there. There is no submission required to the faithful slave as a separate body (as shown by the topic at hand), this is just an attempt to make the GB appear scriptural by association.
It's this dishonesty which shows who's children they are."
Except where is the problem? I mean in everyday life how is there a focus on the FDS or the GB? I don't see it. But all of the opposers constantly focus on them, and I don't understand why.
Shawn said;
"Well, since JWs are baptized into the organization, from the perspective of the Watchtower Society, they do see leaving the organization equivalent to leaving God."
No, we are not baptized into the organization. Our baptism puts us in association with the worldwide organization. Which is a good thing.
And since Jehovah has provided much to and through is organization, the earthy part, leaving the earthly part is rejecting the heavenly part.
"Once I personally realized that Watchtower held a position in my life that can only be described as idolatry, I had to leave."
why? You made that choice to put the Watchtower as your worship. I never worshipped them. I just agree with the theology that is taught because it is right and agrees with the Bible. And I agree with its position as the hub of the organization. Why can't others do that?
" My conscience would not permit me to be a part of something that removed Christ alone as my Mediator."
Well, since you are not one of the anointed Christ is not your mediator. That is a simple fact. Just as Moses was the mediator of the old covenant between Jehovah and the Israelites, Jesus is the mediator between Jehovah and spiritual Israel. I do not believe you are spiritual Israel, thus you do not need some to mediate a covenant you are not part of.
But many will say that they pray through Jesus. Well, prayer is not done through a mediator, it is through a priest. Jesus is high priest for all.
"The "organization" is viewed as a means of salvation. It is referred to as a "ark" of salvation. Those that "leave the organization" are viewed as doomed, in the eyes of God. "
That is correct that the earthly part of Jehovah's organization is the ark of salvation that people need to get aboard to be saved, because how can ones reject the earthly part and still be recognized by the heavenly part?
VoR, if Jesus is not your Mediator, who is?
If it is not Christ, you're not a Christian.
Sorry, bud. Simple Biblical fact.
You rely on a unique interpretation of Scripture. Your conclusions are ones that persons do not arrive at when reading the Bible. Your beliefs come from the leadership of JWs.
Also, before I forget, please tell us why you believe that oral sex between married JWs is OK, when the Watchtower magazine specifically says that it is not?
-------------
*** w83 3/15 p. 31 Honor Godly Marriage! ***
"What, though, if one mate wants or even demands to share with his or her partner in what is clearly a perverted sex practice? The above-presented facts show that porneia involves unlawful sexual conduct outside the marital arrangement. Thus, a mate’s enforcing perverted acts, such as oral or anal sex, within the marriage would not constitute a Scriptural basis for a divorce that would free either for remarriage."
Why do JWs disfellowship people that vote for Obama? Do you have a Scriptural answer?
"VoR, if Jesus is not your Mediator, who is?"
No one. I don't need one as I am not in a covenant.
"If it is not Christ, you're not a Christian."
Nope. That is not what Christianity is about or being a Christian is about. It is about the atonement which is different than the mediatorship.
"Sorry, bud. Simple Biblical fact."
Nope. You are lost there.
There is a difference between Mosest the mediator and Aaron the priest. Different jobs for different people.
Jesus did both of those jobs for different people also. Very elementary.
"You rely on a unique interpretation of Scripture. Your conclusions are ones that persons do not arrive at when reading the Bible. Your beliefs come from the leadership of JWs."
No, nothing unique about comparing the mediatorship of Moses and to whom that was with the priesthood of Aaron and to whom that was. That existed for 1900 years for a purpose, to be a model for the Christian system.
"Also, before I forget, please tell us why you believe that oral sex between married JWs is OK, when the Watchtower magazine specifically says that it is not?"
I did not say it was 'ok', I said it was up to the people involved. and the Watchtower does not have the authority to declare things "ok" or not. They are not masters over our faith.
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*** w83 3/15 p. 31 Honor Godly Marriage! ***
Thus, a mate’s enforcing perverted acts, such as oral or anal sex, within the marriage would not constitute a Scriptural basis for a divorce that would free either for remarriage."
Exactly my point. It is not basis for divorce as it is not pornea. and it is perverted as sucking on one's tailpipe is perverted. Putting one's mouth on the orifice where waste products come out is unclean. duh.
"Why do JWs disfellowship people that vote for Obama? Do you have a Scriptural answer? "
He is black and is a follower of The rev. Jeremiah wright. What else.
And ones who vote for McCain because Palin is a woman and women are not to be president as Mccain will not last 4 or 8 years as he is too old."
That is a joke, not to be taken seriously.
But the serious answer is: Can you imagine the blacks wanting to vote for Obama because he is black and the conservatives for McCain and the women for Hillary and now Palin. then the congregation would be divided. Can you imagine the elders and CO's and DO's preaching for a candidate? I can't because the whole thing is silly.
Voice of Reason wrote: "the Watchtower does not have the authority to declare things "ok" or not."
In all seriousness, when you write things like this, you lose all credibility as a JW.
Are you really a JW?
The Watchtower magazine could not be any clearer. It calls oral sex between married persons a "perverted act".
Can you defend the notion that oral sex between married persons is a perverted act using the Bible?
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*** w83 3/15 p. 31 Honor Godly Marriage! ***
"...perverted acts, such as oral or anal sex, within the marriage..."
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This is a clear example in which the Watchtower magazines does indeed tell JWs what is not OK.
"Voice of Reason wrote: 'the Watchtower does not have the authority to declare things "ok" or not.'
In all seriousness, when you write things like this, you lose all credibility as a JW.
Are you really a JW?'"
Of course because I know and follow 2 Cor 1:24 and so does the Watchtower
"Not that we are the masters over YOUR faith, but we are fellow workers for YOUR joy, for it is by [YOUR] faith that YOU are standing."
Where do you get the idea that JWs don't follow that? Since the apostles are not masters of our faith, how can the Watchtower be? I suggest you read the 6/15/2007W. I don't see that fellow workers declare things right or wrong.
"The Watchtower magazine could not be any clearer. It calls oral sex between married persons a "perverted act".
Can you defend the notion that oral sex between married persons is a perverted act using the Bible?"
No, it is not saying that it is wrong, it is saying that it is perverted, which it is.
And I don't have to use the Bible to state that it is perverted. How can putting a mouth on the place where waste product comes out be clean?
But if people want to do it, that is their business. I don't care.
VoR said: "And I don't have to use the Bible to state that it is perverted."
No, you do have to use the Bible. Your flagship magazine tells 'true Christians' that this is perverted.
Is this human wisdom or wisdom from God?
Sir, JWs look to their 'mother' to interpret the Bible and to tell them what is right and what is wrong.
They allow the WT magazine to tell them what matters are for them to decide, e.g., blood fractions.
You're running from the truth, here.
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The WTS/FDS/GB teaches that a Christian (JW) cannot store their blood to be transfused later. Why then is it a conscience matter for a jw to use hemoglobin-based products made out of expired stored human and animal blood?
We're not interested in your common sense. Your common sense is human wisdom.
From the BIBLE, show me where blood fractions are a conscience matter, whereas whole blood or red blood cells are WRONG to accept?
VoR said: "No, it is not saying that it is wrong, it is saying that it is perverted, which it is."
Are you saying that when the WT magazine calls something perverted, that it's "not wrong"?
Are we playing word games again? Please help me out.
"Is this human wisdom or wisdom from God? "
Well, the Bible does say that out of one's anus comes apostate reasonings.
I already stated the purpose of those organs, and you ignored what I wrote.
VoiceofReason said:
"No, they (the governing body) don't have special insight. They just study more, pray more and are in a spiritual environment."
So they are not God's channel of communication today? They do not claim to be God-directed? They do not receive guidance from resurrected anointed ones?
VOR, your statement may well be true, but it is not what they themselves claim - or did you not see the quotations from the WTS literature posted here?
I suggest, the next time you are amongst a group of elders, you say that the governing body do not have any special insight. You'll be dragged straight into a judicial committee.
The fact is, the GB demand exact obedience from their followers, or else face disfellowshipping. However you may personally rationalise this, the organisation does not support the things you are saying here and you are therefore an apostate.
Cheers,
Brian
Voice of reason said
No, we are not baptized into the organization. Our baptism puts us in association with the worldwide organization. Which is a good thing.
At Matt 28:19 JESUS said "Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."
No mention 'in association' with any organization.
As is often the case the GB of JW's goes "beyond what is written".
If JWs were not baptized into their organization, the organization wouldn't be so obsessed with the 'status' of its members.
We've all read about how the elders will follow people in their cars and camp outside their home, to get evidence of the appearance of wrongdoing, so as to proceed jucicially.
Unreal.
Read George Orwell's book, 1984, for a dose of how the organization operates.
vor/ronde says,
"Well, the Bible does say that out of one's anus comes apostate reasonings."
I guess you, vor/ronde would have the low down on the anus reasonings.
As far as the Bible stating this, I guess I never read that part. I think it's about where your head's at, not what the Bible says.
'"VoiceofReason said:
'No, they (the governing body) don't have special insight. They just study more, pray more and are in a spiritual environment.'
Brian replied:"So they are not God's channel of communication today? They do not claim to be God-directed? They do not receive guidance from resurrected anointed ones?"
No.
No, it is not the governing body that is the channel. The channel is the GB and writing and teaching and publishing committee to the congregations through the elders and COs and DOs and the literature too.
I said study more, pray more and that is what makes them spirit directed. Why did you ignore that part of what I wrote? What is your reason for ignoring it?
I specifically wrote "study more, pray more" Did you miss that?
I will write it again.
They just study more, pray more
They just study more, pray more
They just study more, pray more
They just study more, pray more
They just study more, pray more
They just study more, pray more
If that does not mean spirit directed, then what does?
Brian said:
"I suggest, the next time you are amongst a group of elders, you say that the governing body do not have any special insight. You'll be dragged straight into a judicial committee."
You are wrong. The overseers of my congregation know that I do not believe that Jerusalem was destroyed in 607 and they know that I post on apostate forums. I was not in a judicial committee.
"The fact is, the GB demand exact obedience from their followers, or else face disfellowshipping. "
That is total BS. Capital B. Capital S. And you know the rest.
What is there to obey? Nothing?
You complain about the GB, but what is there to obey?
"However you may personally rationalise this, the organisation does not support the things you are saying here and you are therefore an apostate."
Well, let me inform you of something. I am the organization. The organization is not the Watchtower or the GB, it is 7 million of us. and we comprise the earthly part of Jehovah's organization.
Brian, you are not fooling anyone. You know nothing of this religion.
A stupid anonymous person wrote:
"At Matt 28:19 JESUS said "Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."
No mention 'in association' with any organization."
DUH.
When one person, then another than another, etc gets baptized, they form an organization. At pentecost "the crowd of persons was all together about one hundred and twenty". Well, that is in the Bible and that is an organization.
And there were 3000 baptized on pentecost. They formed an organization. Thus your lame attempt from quoting Matt 28 ignored the results. It is not get baptized into an organization.
It is when they get baptized they form an organization and they are accountable to that organization.
"If JWs were not baptized into their organization, the organization wouldn't be so obsessed with the 'status' of its members."
When the 3000 got baptized at pentecost, they were formed an organization. It is not that they got baptized into it because there was not one at the time. It is that their baptism, formed an organization and since then everyone baptized added to that organization.
"We've all read about how the elders will follow people in their cars and camp outside their home, to get evidence of the appearance of wrongdoing, so as to proceed jucicially."
And you read wrong. As if they care about such things.
Why is it that all of the congregations that I have been in none of those things happened?
Ronde wrote: "Why is it that all of the congregations that I have been in none of those things happened?"
You seem to know very little about JWs. Perhaps your congregations are in your head? Have you seen that movie, A Beautiful Mind?
I would like to know what arguments there is that you will be saved if you are in the congregation. Is there any bible-verses or may be the bible say something different?
vor/ronde says,
"Well, the Bible does say that out of one's anus comes apostate reasonings."
I guess you, vor/ronde would have the low down on the anus reasonings.
As far as the Bible stating this, I guess I never read that part. I think it's about where your head's at, not what the Bible says.
"I would like to know what arguments there is that you will be saved if you are in the congregation. Is there any bible-verses or may be the bible say something different? "
The fact that the congregation is the fulfillment of the Bible. And the fact that Christians don't seek salvation, they seek to please God and salvation will come.
'And the fact that Christians don't seek salvation, they seek to please God and salvation will come.'
According to JWs Christians who seek to please God in all sincerity and truth, but who end up being in any other religion apart from JW, will be destroyed by God. So no salvation for them, no matter how hard they tried.
Of course someone will get all pedantic and say they are not Christians, but that is just a smokescreen to avoid having to contemplate how cruel and unjust their view of God is.
Voice Of Reason said:
"They just study more, pray more
They just study more, pray more
They just study more, pray more
They just study more, pray more
They just study more, pray more
They just study more, pray more
If that does not mean spirit directed, then what does?" There are lots of people who study and pray. Study and prayer does not mean spirited directed, at least not in the sense that "God's channel today" intends. Repeating a falsehood doesn't make it any less wrong.
"The overseers of my congregation know that I do not believe that Jerusalem was destroyed in 607 and they know that I post on apostate forums. I was not in a judicial committee."
I congratulate you for realising the lie at the root of many of the WTS teachings, but I find it incredible that no action has been taken against you since many have been disfellowshipped for doubting the 'faithful and discreet slave'. If you truly are a witness and as free as you say, what congregation do you belong to?
"Brian, you are not fooling anyone. You know nothing of this religion."
Ah, again you are very wrong. I have been a JW for 35 years and I know for a fact that what you have said here would not be acceptable in any congregation I have ever been in or that follows the society's guidelines and printed literature.
Cheers,
Brian
Voice of Reason, promoting Apostate ideas since 2008!
Ironically, dude, your ideas, as written here, help us.
I cannot, in good conscience, ask you to stop posting your nonsense.
The Internet will record all of these words for future generations to read.
It's weird to think that long after we're all dead, folks will be able to read our words, and determine what is really the truth.
Like I said a long time ago, when all of you apologists are old men and women, let's dicuss this again.
So far, every JW has died of old age or sickness/accidents. You'll be no different.
Millions Now Living Will Surely be Dead!
Some thougths about the salvation.
The last Sunday WT-study was about the dragnet illustration. Before it was understud it means all christian religions, but new light on that say: It means JW organization. The illustration say that when the dragnet gets full angels will separate the bad fish from the good, in the conclusion of system of things. So where will the angels find bad fishes? And will the organization be the safe place for salvation?
VOR (alias Ronde) made this startleling revelaton in another post (here is Ronde's direct quote):
"I don't trust them [the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses] for any explanation. I have said that over and over. Come on."
This discussion about the "anointed ones" as regards to the governing body are totally two issues. Those of the anointed ones really do have "insight" into the bible if they are true anointed ones and as such will no longer be INSIDE the watchtower society. They were given certain insight about the false teachings inside Jerusalem and they have already left when Jesus made his inspection visit recently. As regards to the governing body, they WILL not accept anyone pointing out any of their false teachings even by the "anointed ones" and have disfellowshipped many for this. They are the "law" not the anointed ones. The so called anointed ones left inside the Watchtower society today are the weeds sown by Satan in the sowing of the seeds (Jesus illustration) all the fine seed, true anointed ones have been taken out for the cities destruction soonto take place. 2nd Thess 2 covers the events right now. The man of lawlessness is sitting INSIDE the temple of God proclaiming to be God. They will not listen to the truth and be saved so God will give them an delusion for them to continue beleiving in the lies. Read one of my web pages in www.pitn.net also http://bucketwoman.livejournal.com/ thanks for reading this.
So much ignorance. Jehovah is The Only True God and soon his Son Jesus Christ will destroy those destroying the earth, and His Kingdom that his Witnesses are trying to tell you about will rule mankind forever on earth. When you decline His Witnesses, you decline him. All in opposition will be destroyed. This is the facts regardless of your cynicism.
Sorry Mark, Your life is a fantasy. Jesus is not going to kill 99% of human life on the planet to make you feel better about spending a few mornings a month handing out tracts with pictures of children hugging lions and pandas. Notice how I don't capitalize every other word. That's because normal people can contribute to a conversation without implying they have an evil, murderous proper noun on their side.
Mark, when you die... in 'this' world, just like the rest of us who didn't spend their whole lives handing out tracts, you'll think of me... or you'll have realized the truth about the men you are giving your life to and start really living.
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