We do not believe God "chose the Watchtower society in 1919".
We believe that the people working for the Watchtower Society were doing God's will and because of that he chose them and the WTBTS was a means of doing God's will.
"Jehovah's Witnesses believe themselves to be honest people -- and indeed, they are extremely trustworthy. However, they err in assuming that this honesty extends to all aspects of their lives.
"Like almost everybody else (though to a greater degree), they seem incapable of objectively weighing the pros and cons of their core beliefs.
You might say, "Surely a devastatingly logical argument could break through to any Witness!" but that is a forlorn hope, as we shall see."
Geez, coming from you Ronde (Voice of Reason, Anonymous, etc.), I take that as a compliment.
Why do I say that?
If you were the barometer for reasonableness, may I (or anyone else for that matter) never match it (because the world would be in serious trouble).
What I have repeatedly observed Ronde is that you have placed your own foot in your mouth (many times) - you got no assist from anyone on that. It was all you.
Do you know how often people have responded like this: "Ronde, you are an idiot." It's been more than two people and so using the Biblical two-witness rule, I guess you are what you are!
p.s. I'm not sure if you really are a JW. Perhaps you're coming back from being DF (I can see that for sure). One thing is for sure, you're going to see the light one day because you are one very loose canon:
JW's believe that the True God, Jehovah, and his son Jesus are perfect. No one believes the organization is perfect, since the organization itself admits it.
Sheeplike said... "JW's believe that the True God, Jehovah, and his son Jesus are perfect. No one believes the organization is perfect, since the organization itself admits it."
The Organization behind Jehovah’s Witnesses also teaches they are the one true religion and God’s sole channel of communication to people today. This is despite the fact that they have a long history of false prophesies and blood guilt including the banning of Organ Transplants:
'Questions from Readers’ section in The Watchtower, Aug. 1, 1961, page 480 = Conscious choice.
'Questions from Readers' section in The Watchtower, Nov. 15, 1967, p. 702 = Prohibited Cannibalism.
After 13 years the Society flipped back to their old teaching again…
The Watchtower March 15, 1980 p. 31 = Conscious choice.
How is the above an example of “light getting brighter” as their claim to why they change their teachings? Is the above proof of an organization directed by God?
Additional confusing doctrines include who will be resurrected:
Watchtower of July 1879, page 8 = Sodomites will be resurrected.
Watchtower of June 1, 1952, page 338 = Men of Sodom will not be resurrected.
Watchtower of August 1, 1965, page 479 = Men of Sodom will be resurrected.
Live Forever Paradise Earth 1982 edition, page 179 = Men of Sodom will be resurrected.
Watchtower of June 1, 1988 page 31 = Men of Sodom will not be resurrected.
Live Forever Paradise Earth 1989 edition, page 179 = Men of Sodom will not be resurrected.
Insight Volume 2, page 985 = Men of Sodom will be resurrected.
Revelation book, page 273 = Men of Sodom will not be resurrected.
Again, is the above an example of "light getting brighter" and an organization directed by God? An organization which does a 180 degree turn back to an old teaching and reverses several times over has no logical reason for doing so besides being the guesses and predictions of men, not the direction of God.
Sheeplike said... "JW's believe that the True God, Jehovah, and his son Jesus are perfect. No one believes the organization is perfect, since the organization itself admits it."
In other words, Sheeplike is admitting that JWs, and the WTBTS, are NO DIFFERENT from other religions and the organizational hierachy of those other religions. Which I find surprising, since I was always told that (1) JWs are far different from, and far better than, ALL other religions, and (2) The JWs religion is GOD'S ORGANIZATION (which supports (1)).
Now, in other religious news:
"Catholic's believe that the True God, The Father, and his son Jesus are perfect. No one believes the Catholic Church is perfect, since the Catholic Church itself admits it."
"Mormon's believe that the True God, Jehovah, and his son Jesus are perfect. No one believes the Church of Latter Day Saints is perfect, since the Church of Latter Day Saints itself admits it."
"Anglican's believe that the True God, The Holy Father, and his son Jesus are perfect. No one believes the Church of England is perfect, since the Church of England itself admits it."
"Scientologists believe that the "Tech" of L. Ronald Hubbard, and the Bridge to Freedom, is perfect. No one believes the Church of Scientology is perfect, since the Church of Scientology itself admits it."
"Members of the People's Church believe that the True God, The Father, and his son Jesus are perfect. No one believes the Reverend Jim Jones is perfect, since the Reverend Jim Jones himself admits it."
I still stand by my reasoning that, a productive, active, JW would not be commenting on here. I too believe that VOR is DF'd and trying to ease his own conscience by "witnessing" on here. It doesn't work. If you are on here, you ain't no JW! Not really. I was out for almost 7 yrs before I even considered looking online at information about the organization. I was still programmed not to do that. If you are still attending meetings, going out in field service and going to conventions and conducting bible studies, you wouldn't even have all the time free that you spend on here commenting. Don't you have some studying to do? I still say VOR is DF'd. I stand by that theory.
Sheeplike said: "JW's believe that the True God, Jehovah, and his son Jesus are perfect. No one believes the organization is perfect, since the organization itself admits it. '"
But if the opposers understood that, they would have nothing to complain about. Their life is all about complaining.
"The Organization behind Jehovah’s Witnesses also teaches they are the one true religion and God’s sole channel of communication to people today."
The organization is Jehovah's Witnesses, and we are the one true religion.
" This is despite the fact that they have a long history of false prophesies and blood guilt including the banning of Organ Transplants:"
No, we have not had any false prophesies. Because certain people have said and printed certain things does not mean that WE have done so.
And it has been said here before that organ transplants were not banned.
"'Questions from Readers' section in The Watchtower, Nov. 15, 1967, p. 702 = Prohibited Cannibalism."
That was not a prohibition.
"The Watchtower March 15, 1980 p. 31 = Conscious choice."
It was always a choice of conscience.
"How is the above an example of “light getting brighter” as their claim to why they change their teachings? Is the above proof of an organization directed by God?"
Yes, that was directed by God, because after 1967 and prior to 1982 transplants were dangerous and rejected by the body.
"Additional confusing doctrines include who will be resurrected:"
Nothing confusing about that. It has not happened yet so what Jesus does is not determined by what the Watchtower says.
Voice of Reason said... ""'Questions from Readers' section in The Watchtower, Nov. 15, 1967, p. 702 = Prohibited Cannibalism." That was not a prohibition."
Voice of Reason, any Christian knows Cannibalism if prohibited. And that was certainly the view of the organization of Jehovah’s Witnesses. I surely hope you actually read the referenced material. When the question was posed: “"Is there any Scriptural objection to donating one's body for use in medical research or to accepting organs for transplant from such a source?” In part here’s the answer the organization behind Jehovah’s Witnesses provided:
*** “When men of science conclude that this normal process will no longer work and they suggest removing the organ and replacing it directly with an organ from another human, this is simply a shortcut. Those who submit to such operations are thus living off the flesh of another human. That is cannibalistic. However, in allowing man to eat animal flesh Jehovah God did not grant permission for humans to try to perpetuate their lives by cannibalistically taking into their bodies human flesh, whether chewed or in the form of whole organs or body parts taken from others." (The Watchtower, Nov. 15, 1967, p. 702) ***
Yes, the organization indeed referred to it as Cannibalism. And yes, Cannibalism is prohibited by Christians. You can split hairs on words and try to convince yourself differently, but that was the direction provided.
"I hate to break it you, pal, but Jehovah has failed to 'clean' his congregation of all of us that have 'returned to our vomit'."
If you say so.
"There are apostates that are elders, pioneers and Bethelites. We get the same information from the 'Mother' that you get"
No you do not. I get more than you will ever get. That is because you have no idea what what JWs get because you do not know the teachigns.
"Not to mention those of us living in the same house with active JWs."
That means nothing too.
"The Faithful & Discreet Slave has been unable to shut down the Internet. I think they need to pray for more Holy Spirit."
And we use that to give spiritual food.
"What percentage of publishers have the elder book? Less than 10%? What percentage of ex-JWs have the elder book? More than 50%?"
That means nothing.
"Ironically, it's the ex-JWs that more about the way the organization is run than the active JWs. Maybe Jehovah will stop the leaks. "
Not true. it is the exjws that worship the organization and the people. It is the JWs that know more about Jehovah and Jesus as we worship Jehovah and follow the Christ.
Voice of Reason said... "The organization is Jehovah's Witnesses, and we are the one true religion."
Response… Only a select few write the Watchtowers as well as other publications followers of the Organization behind Jehovah’s Witnesses put their faith in as being the one channel God is using to direct people today. The organization is made up of “ordinary” Jehovah’s Witnesses, but they receive their instructions from a select few members.
Voice of Reason said... "Yes, that was directed by God, because after 1967 and prior to 1982 transplants were dangerous and rejected by the body."
Response… There is no research and no proof of that claim. Following that line of thought is a result of making up excuses and trying to justify in one’s own mind how the organization behind Jehovah’s Witnesses can come to such a conclusion.
Voice of Reason said… "Nothing confusing about that. It has not happened yet so what Jesus does is not determined by what the Watchtower says."
Response… It most certainly is confusing going back and forth to whether a certain group of people will be resurrected or not. Especially, when the teachings come from an organization who claims to be directed by God and chosen as the true religion since 1919 (As the Organization behind Jehovah’s Witnesses claims and teaches its followers). You’re right though, what Jesus does is not determined by what the Watchtower says. And as a follower of Christ, what a Christian does is not determined by what the Watchtower says. Unfortunately, for Jehovah’s Witnesses they are instructed and trained to follow what they are taught through the Watchtower.
VOR replied to someone: "Not true. it is the exjws that worship the organization and the people."
If ever there was a false statement, the one above by VOR tops them all!
ExJWs do NOT worship the organization, nor any JW. That's why they are call EX-JW's! Because they no longer believe that Jehovah God is using this organization to dispense spiritual food to the so-called only true religion.
VOR...you dumbass. I said I was out of the organization for 7 years. I was a baptised publisher! I left on my own. Not DF'd, like you obviously are! So, this statement by you is retarded!>"Then you admit that you are not a JW and you are in no position to be saying what JWs do and should or should not do.
That says it all."
Nobody admitted sh**. I do know when I was attending meetings(for over 30 yrs) that we were always taught not to be searching online anything about the JW's because it would be apostate teachings. So, what does that say about you? HMMM?
Exjw1995 said: "'VOR replied to someone: "Not true. it is the exjws that worship the organization and the people."' If ever there was a false statement, the one above by VOR tops them all!"
Oh really? Then why are Jehovah's witnesses focusing on Jehovah but yet the exjws focus on the watchtower?
"ExJWs do NOT worship the organization, nor any JW. That's why they are call EX-JW's!"
Then why did you let what humans do stumble you by thinking that the people matter? That is what worship is. If you do not or did not worship the Watchtower, then why do you focus on them rather than going to your own church?
" Because they no longer believe that Jehovah God is using this organization to dispense spiritual food to the so-called only true religion. "
So who is he using? So if you do not believe that Jehovah God is using Jehovah's Witnesses, then you are saying that you were a Witness just because you thought that they were. Thus your focus was still on the people.
I am one of Jehovah's witnesses because we have the truth from the Bible and there are 7 million others and we have an organized preaching work and together we form a congregation.
anon said: "VOR...you dumbass. I said I was out of the organization for 7 years."
Well, which anon are you?
And I said that you were never in the organization.
" I was a baptised publisher! I left on my own. Not DF'd, like you obviously are! "
No you weren't. Baptized publishers do not write to other baptized publishers like that. Baptized publishers do not leave. You simply were dunked and you call that baptism.
"Then you admit that you are not a JW and you are in no position to be saying what JWs do and should or should not do. That says it all."
Nobody admitted sh**. I do know when I was attending meetings(for over 30 yrs) that we were always taught not to be searching online anything about the JW's because it would be apostate teachings. So, what does that say about you?"
We were taught that?
No, there is no such thing as "we were taught". We were cautioned, yes, but not taught.
I LOVE the way Jehovah God is using VOR to expose the Watchtower and it's lies and misleading interpretations of scripture and the unreasonableness of those who follow the organization!
Thank you God for VOR/ronde and Thank you for all those who respond to his unreasonableness with TRUTH!
Voice of Reason said... "I am one of Jehovah's witnesses because we have the truth from the Bible and there are 7 million others and we have an organized preaching work and together we form a congregation. Thus we are the true religion."
Voice of Reason, you may have some ‘truth‘ according to the Bible, but you also have much ‘truth’ as interpreted by the organization behind Jehovah’s Witnesses along with their interpretation of the Bible. There is no significance to the number of 7 million others. There are religious organizations with fewer, just about the same number, and many more who are followers of their faith. Other faiths have a preaching work defined by their interpretation of what the scriptures require, just as Jehovah’s Witnesses have an organization that defines to them what their preaching work requires. Many other faiths form congregations as well. Again, none of that proves Jehovah’s Witnesses make up a so-called one true religion.
According to the Organization behind Jehovah's Witnesses, their 'What Does God Require Of Us' brochure, provides a list of what makes up the true religion. The following religious organizations (and others), meet the requirements:
-Assemblies of Yahweh -Assemblies of the Called out Ones of Ya -House of Yahweh -The Assembly of YHWHHoshua -Christadelphians
Robishot said (He writes backwards so his name must be backwards)
"Voice of Reason, you may have some ‘truth‘ according to the Bible, but you also have much ‘truth’ as interpreted by the organization behind Jehovah’s Witnesses along with their interpretation of the Bible."
That is a weak statement. So what if what we have has been interpreted by writers at the WTBTS? Does that automatically make it wrong or questionable, or is it that you can't come to grips with it and deal with it so you simply spring that line on it?
" There is no significance to the number of 7 million others. There are religious organizations with fewer, just about the same number, and many more who are followers of their faith. "
The point was that we believe and follow the Bible as a one faith. One Lord, One faith, one baptism as the Bible says.
"Other faiths have a preaching work defined by their interpretation of what the scriptures require, "
That is less effective than what you say that our ministry is.
"just as Jehovah’s Witnesses have an organization that defines to them what their preaching work requires."
The organization does not define the preaching work. We do what we can.
" Many other faiths form congregations as well. Again, none of that proves Jehovah’s Witnesses make up a so-called one true religion."
No, they do not form the 'one congregation' as the Bible directs.
"According to the Organization behind Jehovah's Witnesses,"
What is that? Are you referring to the Writing committee? Your term is not the correct one.
" their 'What Does God Require Of Us' brochure, provides a list of what makes up the true religion. The following religious organizations (and others), meet the requirements: -Assemblies of Yahweh -Assemblies of the Called out Ones of Ya -House of Yahweh -The Assembly of YHWHHoshua -Christadelphians"
Considering how long they have been around, they should have a congregation in this area and should be preaching to everyone. I don't see that.
Since during the year 1985 onward, that one baptism is in the name of the father, the son and “God's spirit directed organization” according to what is stated from the platform during baptismal talks as directed from the Watchtower as instructed by the Organization behind Jehovah’s Witnesses:
****************** *** Watchtower 1985 June 1 p.30 Subjecting Ourselves to Jehovah by Dedication *** At the close of the convention baptism talk, the baptism candidates will be in position to answer with depth of understanding and heartfelt appreciation two simple questions that serve to confirm that they recognize the implications of following Christ's example. The first question is: On the basis of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, have you repented of your sins and dedicated yourself to Jehovah to do his will? The second is: Do you understand that your dedication and baptism identify you as one of Jehovah's Witnesses in association with God's spirit-directed organization? Having answered yes to these questions, candidates are in a right heart condition to undergo Christian baptism. ******************
A baptism as stated in the Scriptures is in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit:
********* Matthew 28:19 - "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit." *********
Why does the Organization behind Jehovah’s Witnesses teach in the Watchtower to be baptized in association with God’s spirit-directed organization? Where did Jesus state such a thing? No where ever does Jesus even suggest such a thing. It is made up by the Organization behind Jehovah’s Witnesses.
All of your other points are just your opinions and/or your experiences, and although they may coincide with what the Organization behind Jehovah’s Witnesses teaches to its followers, it does not make it factual, accurate or any better than another.
No, Robishot, Nothing changed in the baptism in 1985. They just put a disclaimer that people can not say that they are not accountable to the congregation for being disfellowshipped if they are unrepentant sinners.
Prior to that people complained that they did not agree to that when baptized, when in fact they did. The 1985 questions just remove their complaint.
"Watchtower to be baptized in association with God’s spirit-directed organization? Where did Jesus state such a thing?"
Yes, Jesus did. He told his 11 apostles to go and make disciples and those disciples would be associated with the spirit directed organization. They were not to be baptized and just let go.
Ronde wrote: "He told his 11 apostles to go and make disciples and those disciples would be associated with the spirit directed organization"
We'll need a book, chapter and verse on that one. I've looked and looked and looked and looked and looked and cannot find the word organization in my NWT.
Have you guys written another Mickey Mouse version of the Bible, and not told us about it yet?
Voice of Reason said... “Prior to that people complained that they did not agree to that when baptized, when in fact they did. The 1985 questions just remove their complaint."
Now that’s a scary thought. The Organization behind Jehovah’s Witnesses changes something as sacred as baptism vows because of the complaints of people. Could you please quote chapter and verse where that is acceptable? It can make one wonder what other teachings and practices the Organization behind Jehovah’s Witnesses changes or enforces because of superficial reasons such as the whims of people.
Could you imagine if Jesus changed his teachings because of the complaints of people? Why would people complaining be acceptable justification for changing Jesus instructions for baptizing in the name of The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit?
Jehovah's Witnesses often try to defend their religion against various charges by comparing themselves to the Israelites and then saying, "Well, the Israelites were God's chosen people even though they made mistakes. And even though we make mistakes we are still God chosen people today."
Well of course that simple argument simply doesn't cut it. The Israelites, according to the Bible, came into existence as a result of a promise that God made to Abraham. God caused Abraham's descendents to multiply profusely and grow into a populous nation. They existed because God said he would cause them to come into existence, and that he would make them his special people because of his promise to Abraham. Their being a chosen people had nothing to do with their conduct as individuals or as a nation -- their relationship with God had little to do with them, and everything to do with God.
Eventually God made himself known to the Israelites as "Jehovah", caused the Israelites to worship him, and gave them the Law. However, people outside of the Jewish nation could also worship Jehovah, as did Job and his friends. And as we know, God eventually abandoned the Israelites for their unfaithfulness, and formed "the Christian congregation".
The Christian congregation was different in principle from the Israelite congregation. In the latter, people had no choice whether to belong; they were Jews by birth. On the other hand, people had to make a conscious decision about joining the Christian congregation. They became or remained Christians because of their conduct and their relationship with God and Christ. The Israelites remained Israelites no matter what bad things they did. But a Christian might no longer be a Christian for any number of reasons. In fact, the standards written by various New Testament writers were a litmus test for Christianity. Anyone violating certain standards of conduct was by definition not a Christian (of course, one can split hairs no end about the details, but we're talking about gross violations of what virtually all professed Christians agree on). Anyone who repudiated the Christian faith was no longer a Christian, whereas a Jew who repudiated his religion remained a Jew.
Jesus instituted the Christian congregation, meaning the entire body of faithful Christians, and said that he would be "with" them until he returned. Assuming that that holds true today, the entire body of faithful Christians on earth would constitute the Christian congregation. Here is where JWs get into serious trouble.
Jehovah's Witnesses teach that they and they alone are real Christians and therefore that "the entire body of faithful Christians on earth" is composed exclusively of JWs. Oh, a few individuals will allow that a few outside their organization might be true Christians, but that is not what the JW organization that "speaks" through the printing presses of its Watchtower Society teach. The leaders have stated quite explicitly that salvation for Christians cannot be obtained outside the JW organization, that it is in fact exclusively the "ark of salvation". By such teachings, JWs condemn all other supposed Christians as fakes, imposters, as members of wicked "Christendom". Therefore one should expect that JWs, both as individuals and as an organization, would be a cut above others who claim to be Christian and would always have been so. After all, no one becomes a Christian by birth, but by choice.
Jehovah's Witnesses also teach that there were no real Christians on earth until the 1870s, when the Watchtower Society's founder, Chares Taze Russell, began his Bible studies. They teach that Russell was the first modern-day member of "the anointed", of the "faithful and discreet slave class". However, this conflicts with another teaching that "one generation of the 'slave' class fed the next succeeding generation". JWs have never explained this contradiction.
At any rate, JWs teach that somehow God brought them into existence in the 1870s as "the Bible Students" under the leadership of C. T. Russell. After Russell died and J. F. Rutherford became their leader, they teach that in 1919 Christ made an inspection of all of the Christian religions on the earth, found all of them except one -- the Bible Students -- wanting, and chose their leaders "to be over all Christ's belongings." Thus we find that JWs teach not only that their religion was instituted by God himself in the 1870s, and their leaders appointed as "the faithful slave", but that Christ reaffirmed it and gave these leaders great spiritual authority over the entire body of Christians in the world in 1919.
What do Jehovah's Witnesses actually base all this reasoning on, beyond their arguable interpretations of the Bible? Why, on their claim that they and they alone were so much better than all other Christian groups that Christ specially appointed their leaders in 1919 to have spiritual authority. In other words, they base these claims on their claims that their conduct was and remains a cut above that of everyone else, and that their teachings are virtually identical to those of the early Christians.
To sum it up, Jehovah's Witnesses teach that they are God's chosen people today because of their conduct and their teachings, whereas the Israelites were God's chosen by virtue of birth. The two situations cannot be compared.
This naturally leaves the Witnesses open to criticism. What if their claims of being such good Christians are not true? What if their leadership has proved itself unfaithful to God by, say, telling lies in God's name? Would these disqualify them from being "God's chosen"? Of course they would! The truth of the base claim of JW leaders to speak for God relies on whether they in fact speak for God. But since God doesn't answer questions of this sort, people must observe JWs and judge for themselves whether they measure up. And that is what is happening on the H2O forum and anywhere else free discussion can be had.
On this forum and others it quickly becomes evident that many JW teachings, and their most fundamental one of all, cannot stand up to criticism. They have no means at all of proving that they are "God's chosen". The best they can do is compare themselves to the Israelites and whimper, "well, they were God's chosen despite their faults, and so are we". JWs as individuals have been so heavily indoctrinated with the fundamental teaching that they can do nothing else. Their faith in the Organization is based on mere claims, not demonstrable facts -- and all JW know this. That's why many of them become so angry when their basic doctrine is challenged.
Jehovah's Witnesses could in principle prove their critics wrong by simply offering demonstrable proof of their claims. However, they will once again prove the critics right by failing to give substantive answers to the questions raised in this post. Any answers given will almost certainly contain much personal invective, consist largely of ad hominem attacks and unsupported assertions. Such answers will further prove my basic claim -- JWs are not much different from any other Christian religion, but they are hypocrites because they claim to be so much better.
"A baptism as stated in the Scriptures is in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit"
I looked it up (Matt 28:19 & 20). Sure enough it says just that and nothing more the way the JW baptismal ceremony requires.
ATT JWs: Trinity issue asside, why do you to add to the bible's statement that believers be baptized in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit?
Voice of Reason said... "There is no such thing a a baptism vow. It is not a vow but a public expression of one's dedication."
Unfortunately, the Organization behind Jehovah's Witnesses makes the claim that it is ‘a public expression of one's dedication’, but just before the baptism it has all respective candidates stand for all to see and to answer "Yes" to the two questions I sited earlier. Again, it includes:
Do you understand that your dedication and baptism identify you as one of Jehovah's Witnesses in association with God's spirit-directed organization?
There is no scriptural requirement or need to perform such a thing which requires baptismal candidates to state "Yes" or agree to any such notion. Clearly, it is something added by the Organization behind Jehovah's Witnesses. Or as you stated, "The 1985 questions just remove their complaint." This would mean the Organization behind Jehovah's Witnesses makes changes to their practices and doctrines to please complainers.
So which one is it? Do they just add to the requirements set out in the scriptures for no reason, or their reason is to please complainers?
Either way, they are guilty of adding to the Scriptures and adding extra burdens upon sincere people which should not be in place.
55 comments:
I've been reading some comments from JW's - like Voice of Reason - and it appears that they have mastered this training!
Your premise is wrong.
We do not believe God "chose the Watchtower society in 1919".
We believe that the people working for the Watchtower Society were doing God's will and because of that he chose them and the WTBTS was a means of doing God's will.
This whole blog is circular reasoning.
Blog owner portrays s/he is knowledgeable about the Witnesses.
Witnesses prove blog owner knows nothing about Witnesses.
Good one Ronde (now you’re imitating me?).
You know what they say ‘imitation is a form a flattery'.
LOL
I'm sorry Joepublish, but you have pretty much made a fool out of me on this web-blog.
I have had to resort to all types of silly arguments. Changing my alias often. But, everyone always figures out who I am.
What am I to do?
I'm sorry Joepublish, but you have pretty much made a fool out of me on this web-blog.
I have had to resort to all types of silly arguments. Changing my alias often. But, everyone always figures out who I am.
What am I to do?
"Jehovah's Witnesses believe themselves to be honest people -- and indeed, they are extremely trustworthy. However, they err in assuming that this honesty extends to all aspects of their lives.
"Like almost everybody else (though to a greater degree), they seem incapable of objectively weighing the pros and cons of their core beliefs.
You might say, "Surely a devastatingly logical argument could break through to any Witness!" but that is a forlorn hope, as we shall see."
http://members.aol.com/beyondjw/dwjw.htm
Joepub,
If you were a real person, with at least of hint of reasonableness, then you would be worth listening to.
But you are neither of the two.
Geez, coming from you Ronde (Voice of Reason, Anonymous, etc.), I take that as a compliment.
Why do I say that?
If you were the barometer for reasonableness, may I (or anyone else for that matter) never match it (because the world would be in serious trouble).
What I have repeatedly observed Ronde is that you have placed your own foot in your mouth (many times) - you got no assist from anyone on that. It was all you.
Do you know how often people have responded like this: "Ronde, you are an idiot." It's been more than two people and so using the Biblical two-witness rule, I guess you are what you are!
p.s. I'm not sure if you really are a JW. Perhaps you're coming back from being DF (I can see that for sure). One thing is for sure, you're going to see the light one day because you are one very loose canon:
www.freeminds.org
JW's believe that the True God, Jehovah, and his son Jesus are perfect. No one believes the organization is perfect, since the organization itself admits it.
Ronde
I am the original Haunter of your life:
Your still an idiot.
This reminds me of the Truth Fairy video on You Tube.
Sheeplike said...
"JW's believe that the True God, Jehovah, and his son Jesus are perfect. No one believes the organization is perfect, since the organization itself admits it."
The Organization behind Jehovah’s Witnesses also teaches they are the one true religion and God’s sole channel of communication to people today. This is despite the fact that they have a long history of false prophesies and blood guilt including the banning of Organ Transplants:
'Questions from Readers’ section in The Watchtower, Aug. 1, 1961, page 480 = Conscious choice.
'Questions from Readers' section in The Watchtower, Nov. 15, 1967, p. 702 = Prohibited Cannibalism.
After 13 years the Society flipped back to their old teaching again…
The Watchtower March 15, 1980 p. 31 = Conscious choice.
How is the above an example of “light getting brighter” as their claim to why they change their teachings? Is the above proof of an organization directed by God?
Additional confusing doctrines include who will be resurrected:
Watchtower of July 1879, page 8 = Sodomites will be resurrected.
Watchtower of June 1, 1952, page 338 = Men of Sodom will not be resurrected.
Watchtower of August 1, 1965, page 479 = Men of Sodom will be resurrected.
Live Forever Paradise Earth 1982 edition, page 179 = Men of Sodom will be resurrected.
Watchtower of June 1, 1988 page 31 = Men of Sodom will not be resurrected.
Live Forever Paradise Earth 1989 edition, page 179 =
Men of Sodom will not be resurrected.
Insight Volume 2, page 985 = Men of Sodom will be resurrected.
Revelation book, page 273 = Men of Sodom will not be resurrected.
Again, is the above an example of "light getting brighter" and an organization directed by God? An organization which does a 180 degree turn back to an old teaching and reverses several times over has no logical reason for doing so besides being the guesses and predictions of men, not the direction of God.
Sheeplike said...
"JW's believe that the True God, Jehovah, and his son Jesus are perfect. No one believes the organization is perfect, since the organization itself admits it."
In other words, Sheeplike is admitting that JWs, and the WTBTS, are NO DIFFERENT from other religions and the organizational hierachy of those other religions. Which I find surprising, since I was always told that (1) JWs are far different from, and far better than, ALL other religions, and (2) The JWs religion is GOD'S ORGANIZATION (which supports (1)).
Now, in other religious news:
"Catholic's believe that the True God, The Father, and his son Jesus are perfect. No one believes the Catholic Church is perfect, since the Catholic Church itself admits it."
"Mormon's believe that the True God, Jehovah, and his son Jesus are perfect. No one believes the Church of Latter Day Saints is perfect, since the Church of Latter Day Saints itself admits it."
"Anglican's believe that the True God, The Holy Father, and his son Jesus are perfect. No one believes the Church of England is perfect, since the Church of England itself admits it."
"Scientologists believe that the "Tech" of L. Ronald Hubbard, and the Bridge to Freedom, is perfect. No one believes the Church of Scientology is perfect, since the Church of Scientology itself admits it."
"Members of the People's Church believe that the True God, The Father, and his son Jesus are perfect. No one believes the Reverend Jim Jones is perfect, since the Reverend Jim Jones himself admits it."
~Peter M.
I still stand by my reasoning that, a productive, active, JW would not be commenting on here. I too believe that VOR is DF'd and trying to ease his own conscience by "witnessing" on here. It doesn't work. If you are on here, you ain't no JW! Not really. I was out for almost 7 yrs before I even considered looking online at information about the organization. I was still programmed not to do that. If you are still attending meetings, going out in field service and going to conventions and conducting bible studies, you wouldn't even have all the time free that you spend on here commenting. Don't you have some studying to do? I still say VOR is DF'd. I stand by that theory.
Sheeplike said:
"JW's believe that the True God, Jehovah, and his son Jesus are perfect. No one believes the organization is perfect, since the organization itself admits it. '"
But if the opposers understood that, they would have nothing to complain about. Their life is all about complaining.
Ronde wrote: "But if the opposers understood that, they would have nothing to complain about. Their life is all about complaining."
Complaining? A small part of my time and energy is devoted to helping people get out of destructive cults. That is quite positive.
Of course, if you're in a cult, this can certainly be viewed as complaining.
Toshibor, you are wrong again.
"The Organization behind Jehovah’s Witnesses also teaches they are the one true religion and God’s sole channel of communication to people today."
The organization is Jehovah's Witnesses, and we are the one true religion.
" This is despite the fact that they have a long history of false prophesies and blood guilt including the banning of Organ Transplants:"
No, we have not had any false prophesies. Because certain people have said and printed certain things does not mean that WE have done so.
And it has been said here before that organ transplants were not banned.
"'Questions from Readers' section in The Watchtower, Nov. 15, 1967, p. 702 = Prohibited Cannibalism."
That was not a prohibition.
"The Watchtower March 15, 1980 p. 31 = Conscious choice."
It was always a choice of conscience.
"How is the above an example of “light getting brighter” as their claim to why they change their teachings? Is the above proof of an organization directed by God?"
Yes, that was directed by God, because after 1967 and prior to 1982 transplants were dangerous and rejected by the body.
"Additional confusing doctrines include who will be resurrected:"
Nothing confusing about that. It has not happened yet so what Jesus does is not determined by what the Watchtower says.
"I still stand by my reasoning that, a productive, active, JW would not be commenting on here."
And as every non-JW on here, they are wrong.
" I too believe that VOR is DF'd and trying to ease his own conscience by "witnessing" on here. It doesn't work. If you are on here, you ain't no JW!"
Then you admit that you are not a JW and you are in no position to be saying what JWs do and should or should not do.
That says it all.
Ronde wrote: "Then you admit that you are not a JW and you are in no position to be saying what JWs do and should or should not do.
That says it all."
Huh?
I hate to break it you, pal, but Jehovah has failed to 'clean' his congregation of all of us that have 'returned to our vomit'.
There are apostates that are elders, pioneers and Bethelites. We get the same information from the 'Mother' that you get
Not to mention those of us living in the same house with active JWs.
The Faithful & Discreet Slave has been unable to shut down the Internet. I think they need to pray for more Holy Spirit.
What percentage of publishers have the elder book? Less than 10%?
What percentage of ex-JWs have the elder book? More than 50%?
Ironically, it's the ex-JWs that more about the way the organization is run than the active JWs.
Maybe Jehovah will stop the leaks.
Voice of Reason said...
""'Questions from Readers' section in The Watchtower, Nov. 15, 1967, p. 702 = Prohibited Cannibalism."
That was not a prohibition."
Voice of Reason, any Christian knows Cannibalism if prohibited. And that was certainly the view of the organization of Jehovah’s Witnesses. I surely hope you actually read the referenced material. When the question was posed: “"Is there any Scriptural objection to donating one's body for use in medical research or to accepting organs for transplant from such a source?” In part here’s the answer the organization behind Jehovah’s Witnesses provided:
***
“When men of science conclude that this normal process will no longer work and they suggest removing the organ and replacing it directly with an organ from another human, this is simply a shortcut. Those who submit to such operations are thus living off the flesh of another human. That is cannibalistic. However, in allowing man to eat animal flesh Jehovah God did not grant permission for humans to try to perpetuate their lives by cannibalistically taking into their bodies human flesh, whether chewed or in the form of whole organs or body parts taken from others." (The Watchtower, Nov. 15, 1967, p. 702)
***
Yes, the organization indeed referred to it as Cannibalism. And yes, Cannibalism is prohibited by Christians. You can split hairs on words and try to convince yourself differently, but that was the direction provided.
"any Christian knows Cannibalism if prohibited."
Then why does a good hamstring taste like chicken?
"And that was certainly the view of the organization of Jehovah’s Witnesses. I surely hope you actually read the referenced material."
Why can't anyone state anything outside that 1967 W that says that.
"You can split hairs on words and try to convince yourself differently, but that was the direction provided. "
Not true. If that was direction, it would have been stated as such.
That was not a congregational teaching.
"I hate to break it you, pal, but Jehovah has failed to 'clean' his congregation of all of us that have 'returned to our vomit'."
If you say so.
"There are apostates that are elders, pioneers and Bethelites. We get the same information from the 'Mother' that you get"
No you do not. I get more than you will ever get. That is because you have no idea what what JWs get because you do not know the teachigns.
"Not to mention those of us living in the same house with active JWs."
That means nothing too.
"The Faithful & Discreet Slave has been unable to shut down the Internet. I think they need to pray for more Holy Spirit."
And we use that to give spiritual food.
"What percentage of publishers have the elder book? Less than 10%?
What percentage of ex-JWs have the elder book? More than 50%?"
That means nothing.
"Ironically, it's the ex-JWs that more about the way the organization is run than the active JWs.
Maybe Jehovah will stop the leaks. "
Not true. it is the exjws that worship the organization and the people. It is the JWs that know more about Jehovah and Jesus as we worship Jehovah and follow the Christ.
Ronde,
I like your catch-all statement. I would like to use it, myself.
"That means nothing."
Dear Ronde:
That means nothing.
Voice of Reason said...
"The organization is Jehovah's Witnesses, and we are the one true religion."
Response…
Only a select few write the Watchtowers as well as other publications followers of the Organization behind Jehovah’s Witnesses put their faith in as being the one channel God is using to direct people today. The organization is made up of “ordinary” Jehovah’s Witnesses, but they receive their instructions from a select few members.
Voice of Reason said...
"Yes, that was directed by God, because after 1967 and prior to 1982 transplants were dangerous and rejected by the body."
Response…
There is no research and no proof of that claim. Following that line of thought is a result of making up excuses and trying to justify in one’s own mind how the organization behind Jehovah’s Witnesses can come to such a conclusion.
Voice of Reason said…
"Nothing confusing about that. It has not happened yet so what Jesus does is not determined by what the Watchtower says."
Response…
It most certainly is confusing going back and forth to whether a certain group of people will be resurrected or not. Especially, when the teachings come from an organization who claims to be directed by God and chosen as the true religion since 1919 (As the Organization behind Jehovah’s Witnesses claims and teaches its followers). You’re right though, what Jesus does is not determined by what the Watchtower says. And as a follower of Christ, what a Christian does is not determined by what the Watchtower says. Unfortunately, for Jehovah’s Witnesses they are instructed and trained to follow what they are taught through the Watchtower.
VOR replied to someone: "Not true. it is the exjws that worship the organization and the people."
If ever there was a false statement, the one above by VOR tops them all!
ExJWs do NOT worship the organization, nor any JW. That's why they are call EX-JW's! Because they no longer believe that Jehovah God is using this organization to dispense spiritual food to the so-called only true religion.
VOR...you dumbass. I said I was out of the organization for 7 years. I was a baptised publisher! I left on my own. Not DF'd, like you obviously are! So, this statement by you is retarded!>"Then you admit that you are not a JW and you are in no position to be saying what JWs do and should or should not do.
That says it all."
Nobody admitted sh**. I do know when I was attending meetings(for over 30 yrs) that we were always taught not to be searching online anything about the JW's because it would be apostate teachings. So, what does that say about you? HMMM?
Exjw1995 said:
"'VOR replied to someone: "Not true. it is the exjws that worship the organization and the people."'
If ever there was a false statement, the one above by VOR tops them all!"
Oh really? Then why are Jehovah's witnesses focusing on Jehovah but yet the exjws focus on the watchtower?
"ExJWs do NOT worship the organization, nor any JW. That's why they are call EX-JW's!"
Then why did you let what humans do stumble you by thinking that the people matter? That is what worship is. If you do not or did not worship the Watchtower, then why do you focus on them rather than going to your own church?
" Because they no longer believe that Jehovah God is using this organization to dispense spiritual food to the so-called only true religion. "
So who is he using? So if you do not believe that Jehovah God is using Jehovah's Witnesses, then you are saying that you were a Witness just because you thought that they were. Thus your focus was still on the people.
I am one of Jehovah's witnesses because we have the truth from the Bible and there are 7 million others and we have an organized preaching work and together we form a congregation.
Thus we are the true religion.
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anon said:
"VOR...you dumbass. I said I was out of the organization for 7 years."
Well, which anon are you?
And I said that you were never in the organization.
" I was a baptised publisher! I left on my own. Not DF'd, like you obviously are! "
No you weren't. Baptized publishers do not write to other baptized publishers like that. Baptized publishers do not leave. You simply were dunked and you call that baptism.
"Then you admit that you are not a JW and you are in no position to be saying what JWs do and should or should not do.
That says it all."
Nobody admitted sh**. I do know when I was attending meetings(for over 30 yrs) that we were always taught not to be searching online anything about the JW's because it would be apostate teachings. So, what does that say about you?"
We were taught that?
No, there is no such thing as "we were taught". We were cautioned, yes, but not taught.
Ronde/VoR wrote: "there is no such thing as "we were taught". We were cautioned, yes, but not taught."
That means nothing.
I LOVE the way Jehovah God is using VOR to expose the Watchtower and it's lies and misleading interpretations of scripture and the unreasonableness of those who follow the organization!
Thank you God for VOR/ronde and Thank you for all those who respond to his unreasonableness with TRUTH!
Voice of Reason said...
"I am one of Jehovah's witnesses because we have the truth from the Bible and there are 7 million others and we have an organized preaching work and together we form a congregation.
Thus we are the true religion."
Voice of Reason, you may have some ‘truth‘ according to the Bible, but you also have much ‘truth’ as interpreted by the organization behind Jehovah’s Witnesses along with their interpretation of the Bible. There is no significance to the number of 7 million others. There are religious organizations with fewer, just about the same number, and many more who are followers of their faith. Other faiths have a preaching work defined by their interpretation of what the scriptures require, just as Jehovah’s Witnesses have an organization that defines to them what their preaching work requires. Many other faiths form congregations as well. Again, none of that proves Jehovah’s Witnesses make up a so-called one true religion.
According to the Organization behind Jehovah's Witnesses, their 'What Does God Require Of Us' brochure, provides a list of what makes up the true religion. The following religious organizations (and others), meet the requirements:
-Assemblies of Yahweh
-Assemblies of the Called out Ones of Ya
-House of Yahweh
-The Assembly of YHWHHoshua
-Christadelphians
Robishot said (He writes backwards so his name must be backwards)
"Voice of Reason, you may have some ‘truth‘ according to the Bible, but you also have much ‘truth’ as interpreted by the organization behind Jehovah’s Witnesses along with their interpretation of the Bible."
That is a weak statement. So what if what we have has been interpreted by writers at the WTBTS? Does that automatically make it wrong or questionable, or is it that you can't come to grips with it and deal with it so you simply spring that line on it?
" There is no significance to the number of 7 million others. There are religious organizations with fewer, just about the same number, and many more who are followers of their faith. "
The point was that we believe and follow the Bible as a one faith. One Lord, One faith, one baptism as the Bible says.
"Other faiths have a preaching work defined by their interpretation of what the scriptures require, "
That is less effective than what you say that our ministry is.
"just as Jehovah’s Witnesses have an organization that defines to them what their preaching work requires."
The organization does not define the preaching work. We do what we can.
" Many other faiths form congregations as well. Again, none of that proves Jehovah’s Witnesses make up a so-called one true religion."
No, they do not form the 'one congregation' as the Bible directs.
"According to the Organization behind Jehovah's Witnesses,"
What is that? Are you referring to the Writing committee? Your term is not the correct one.
" their 'What Does God Require Of Us' brochure, provides a list of what makes up the true religion. The following religious organizations (and others), meet the requirements:
-Assemblies of Yahweh
-Assemblies of the Called out Ones of Ya
-House of Yahweh
-The Assembly of YHWHHoshua
-Christadelphians"
Considering how long they have been around, they should have a congregation in this area and should be preaching to everyone.
I don't see that.
Ronde wrote: "So what if what we have has been interpreted by writers at the WTBTS?"
It's simple. Their interpretation is no more valid that anyone else's.
It's about respect for God's Word. The Bible 'works'. It doesn't need a few strangers in Brooklyn to shed light on it.
""So what if what we have has been interpreted by writers at the WTBTS?"
It's simple. Their interpretation is no more valid that anyone else's. "
I will answer this:
It is not about their interpretations being more valid. It is that they are correct even when not using interpretations.
Ronde wrote: "It is that they are correct even when not using interpretations"
This is what is known as a Personal Opinion. Everyone has one.
Or, to quote you, "That means nothing."
Voice of Reason said...
"…one baptism…"
Since during the year 1985 onward, that one baptism is in the name of the father, the son and “God's spirit directed organization” according to what is stated from the platform during baptismal talks as directed from the Watchtower as instructed by the Organization behind Jehovah’s Witnesses:
******************
*** Watchtower 1985 June 1 p.30 Subjecting Ourselves to Jehovah by Dedication ***
At the close of the convention baptism talk, the baptism candidates will be in position to answer with depth of understanding and heartfelt appreciation two simple questions that serve to confirm that they recognize the implications of following Christ's example. The first question is:
On the basis of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, have you repented of your sins and dedicated yourself to Jehovah to do his will?
The second is:
Do you understand that your dedication and baptism identify you as one of Jehovah's Witnesses in association with God's spirit-directed organization?
Having answered yes to these questions, candidates are in a right heart condition to undergo Christian baptism.
******************
A baptism as stated in the Scriptures is in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit:
*********
Matthew 28:19 - "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit."
*********
Why does the Organization behind Jehovah’s Witnesses teach in the Watchtower to be baptized in association with God’s spirit-directed organization? Where did Jesus state such a thing? No where ever does Jesus even suggest such a thing. It is made up by the Organization behind Jehovah’s Witnesses.
All of your other points are just your opinions and/or your experiences, and although they may coincide with what the Organization behind Jehovah’s Witnesses teaches to its followers, it does not make it factual, accurate or any better than another.
That diagram was taken from Danny Hazzard.
Is GBLetters Danny Hazzard?
Neither have had an original thought in ... ever.
No, Robishot, Nothing changed in the baptism in 1985. They just put a disclaimer that people can not say that they are not accountable to the congregation for being disfellowshipped if they are unrepentant sinners.
Prior to that people complained that they did not agree to that when baptized, when in fact they did. The 1985 questions just remove their complaint.
"Watchtower to be baptized in association with God’s spirit-directed organization? Where did Jesus state such a thing?"
Yes, Jesus did. He told his 11 apostles to go and make disciples and those disciples would be associated with the spirit directed organization. They were not to be baptized and just let go.
Ronde wrote: "He told his 11 apostles to go and make disciples and those disciples would be associated with the spirit directed organization"
We'll need a book, chapter and verse on that one. I've looked and looked and looked and looked and looked and cannot find the word organization in my NWT.
Have you guys written another Mickey Mouse version of the Bible, and not told us about it yet?
Voice of Reason said...
“Prior to that people complained that they did not agree to that when baptized, when in fact they did. The 1985 questions just remove their complaint."
Now that’s a scary thought. The Organization behind Jehovah’s Witnesses changes something as sacred as baptism vows because of the complaints of people. Could you please quote chapter and verse where that is acceptable? It can make one wonder what other teachings and practices the Organization behind Jehovah’s Witnesses changes or enforces because of superficial reasons such as the whims of people.
Could you imagine if Jesus changed his teachings because of the complaints of people? Why would people complaining be acceptable justification for changing Jesus instructions for baptizing in the name of The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit?
Hey, kids, Brother Some has showed up again.
"Some brothers complained about the baptism questions. So, we had to change them."
Unreal. Cult, cult, cult.
Voice of Reason said-No, Robishot, Nothing changed in the baptism in 1985.
Dude, you are in denial.
SHAME ON YOU to claim that the CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE "chose" some IDIOTS back in 1919.
A psychiatrist should take care of you and fast
Tohsibor said:"something as sacred as baptism vows"
There is no such thing a a baptism vow. It is not a vow but a public expression of one's dedication.
"SHAME ON YOU to claim that the CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE "chose" some IDIOTS back in 1919."
No one claims that.
We claim that in 1919 we were free from Babylon the great.
Are Jehovah's Witnesses God's Chosen?
Jehovah's Witnesses often try to defend their religion against various charges by comparing themselves to the Israelites and then saying, "Well, the Israelites were God's chosen people even though they made mistakes. And even though we make mistakes we are still God chosen people today."
Well of course that simple argument simply doesn't cut it. The Israelites, according to the Bible, came into existence as a result of a promise that God made to Abraham. God caused Abraham's descendents to multiply profusely and grow into a populous nation. They existed because God said he would cause them to come into existence, and that he would make them his special people because of his promise to Abraham. Their being a chosen people had nothing to do with their conduct as individuals or as a nation -- their relationship with God had little to do with them, and everything to do with God.
Eventually God made himself known to the Israelites as "Jehovah", caused the Israelites to worship him, and gave them the Law. However, people outside of the Jewish nation could also worship Jehovah, as did Job and his friends. And as we know, God eventually abandoned the Israelites for their unfaithfulness, and formed "the Christian congregation".
The Christian congregation was different in principle from the Israelite congregation. In the latter, people had no choice whether to belong; they were Jews by birth. On the other hand, people had to make a conscious decision about joining the Christian congregation. They became or remained Christians because of their conduct and their relationship with God and Christ. The Israelites remained Israelites no matter what bad things they did. But a Christian might no longer be a Christian for any number of reasons. In fact, the standards written by various New Testament writers were a litmus test for Christianity. Anyone violating certain standards of conduct was by definition not a Christian (of course, one can split hairs no end about the details, but we're talking about gross violations of what virtually all professed Christians agree on). Anyone who repudiated the Christian faith was no longer a Christian, whereas a Jew who repudiated his religion remained a Jew.
Jesus instituted the Christian congregation, meaning the entire body of faithful Christians, and said that he would be "with" them until he returned. Assuming that that holds true today, the entire body of faithful Christians on earth would constitute the Christian congregation. Here is where JWs get into serious trouble.
Jehovah's Witnesses teach that they and they alone are real Christians and therefore that "the entire body of faithful Christians on earth" is composed exclusively of JWs. Oh, a few individuals will allow that a few outside their organization might be true Christians, but that is not what the JW organization that "speaks" through the printing presses of its Watchtower Society teach. The leaders have stated quite explicitly that salvation for Christians cannot be obtained outside the JW organization, that it is in fact exclusively the "ark of salvation". By such teachings, JWs condemn all other supposed Christians as fakes, imposters, as members of wicked "Christendom". Therefore one should expect that JWs, both as individuals and as an organization, would be a cut above others who claim to be Christian and would always have been so. After all, no one becomes a Christian by birth, but by choice.
Jehovah's Witnesses also teach that there were no real Christians on earth until the 1870s, when the Watchtower Society's founder, Chares Taze Russell, began his Bible studies. They teach that Russell was the first modern-day member of "the anointed", of the "faithful and discreet slave class". However, this conflicts with another teaching that "one generation of the 'slave' class fed the next succeeding generation". JWs have never explained this contradiction.
At any rate, JWs teach that somehow God brought them into existence in the 1870s as "the Bible Students" under the leadership of C. T. Russell. After Russell died and J. F. Rutherford became their leader, they teach that in 1919 Christ made an inspection of all of the Christian religions on the earth, found all of them except one -- the Bible Students -- wanting, and chose their leaders "to be over all Christ's belongings." Thus we find that JWs teach not only that their religion was instituted by God himself in the 1870s, and their leaders appointed as "the faithful slave", but that Christ reaffirmed it and gave these leaders great spiritual authority over the entire body of Christians in the world in 1919.
What do Jehovah's Witnesses actually base all this reasoning on, beyond their arguable interpretations of the Bible? Why, on their claim that they and they alone were so much better than all other Christian groups that Christ specially appointed their leaders in 1919 to have spiritual authority. In other words, they base these claims on their claims that their conduct was and remains a cut above that of everyone else, and that their teachings are virtually identical to those of the early Christians.
To sum it up, Jehovah's Witnesses teach that they are God's chosen people today because of their conduct and their teachings, whereas the Israelites were God's chosen by virtue of birth. The two situations cannot be compared.
This naturally leaves the Witnesses open to criticism. What if their claims of being such good Christians are not true? What if their leadership has proved itself unfaithful to God by, say, telling lies in God's name? Would these disqualify them from being "God's chosen"? Of course they would! The truth of the base claim of JW leaders to speak for God relies on whether they in fact speak for God. But since God doesn't answer questions of this sort, people must observe JWs and judge for themselves whether they measure up. And that is what is happening on the H2O forum and anywhere else free discussion can be had.
On this forum and others it quickly becomes evident that many JW teachings, and their most fundamental one of all, cannot stand up to criticism. They have no means at all of proving that they are "God's chosen". The best they can do is compare themselves to the Israelites and whimper, "well, they were God's chosen despite their faults, and so are we". JWs as individuals have been so heavily indoctrinated with the fundamental teaching that they can do nothing else. Their faith in the Organization is based on mere claims, not demonstrable facts -- and all JW know this. That's why many of them become so angry when their basic doctrine is challenged.
Jehovah's Witnesses could in principle prove their critics wrong by simply offering demonstrable proof of their claims. However, they will once again prove the critics right by failing to give substantive answers to the questions raised in this post. Any answers given will almost certainly contain much personal invective, consist largely of ad hominem attacks and unsupported assertions. Such answers will further prove my basic claim -- JWs are not much different from any other Christian religion, but they are hypocrites because they claim to be so much better.
"A baptism as stated in the Scriptures is in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit"
I looked it up (Matt 28:19 & 20). Sure enough it says just that and nothing more the way the JW baptismal ceremony requires.
ATT JWs: Trinity issue asside, why do you to add to the bible's statement that believers be baptized in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit?
Voice of Reason said...
"There is no such thing a a baptism vow. It is not a vow but a public expression of one's dedication."
Unfortunately, the Organization behind Jehovah's Witnesses makes the claim that it is ‘a public expression of one's dedication’, but just before the baptism it has all respective candidates stand for all to see and to answer "Yes" to the two questions I sited earlier. Again, it includes:
Do you understand that your dedication and baptism identify you as one of Jehovah's Witnesses in association with God's spirit-directed organization?
There is no scriptural requirement or need to perform such a thing which requires baptismal candidates to state "Yes" or agree to any such notion. Clearly, it is something added by the Organization behind Jehovah's Witnesses. Or as you stated, "The 1985 questions just remove their complaint." This would mean the Organization behind Jehovah's Witnesses makes changes to their practices and doctrines to please complainers.
So which one is it? Do they just add to the requirements set out in the scriptures for no reason, or their reason is to please complainers?
Either way, they are guilty of adding to the Scriptures and adding extra burdens upon sincere people which should not be in place.
Hi,
I am wondering if Jehovah's witnesses can donate their body for research after death?
Can they receive any organ donation then?
No, JWs can not donate their bodies after death because they are dead and thus unable to donate anything.
However, living people can donate the dead cadaver to medicine for use.
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