The brother who over many decades had been the top-dog at the Spainish Branch of the Watchtower, Antonio "Toti" Rodriguez was demoted as the head of the Legal Dept. and has been assigned a desk in the "Service Dept." at Ajalvir, (Spanish Bethel).
Word has it that the recent ruling in the Spanish courts against the Society over Social Security contributions and pensions for Bethel workers was the reason. It's going to cost the Watchtower Society millions, but I'm sure they'll pass the cost down to the publishers.
The letter from from Watchtower Headquarters to the Spanish congregations makes it seems like it was their idea to give the brothers Social Security and pensions. They praised themelves in the letter saying what a loving arrangement to provide for those who've worked so long in furthering Kingdom interests. What a loving arrangement indeed, when you need the Courts to force your hand!
Poor "Toti". He tried really hard to keep the Spanish government from collecting Social Security and pensions for people employed at Bethel.
Word has it that the recent ruling in the Spanish courts against the Society over Social Security contributions and pensions for Bethel workers was the reason. It's going to cost the Watchtower Society millions, but I'm sure they'll pass the cost down to the publishers.
The letter from from Watchtower Headquarters to the Spanish congregations makes it seems like it was their idea to give the brothers Social Security and pensions. They praised themelves in the letter saying what a loving arrangement to provide for those who've worked so long in furthering Kingdom interests. What a loving arrangement indeed, when you need the Courts to force your hand!
Poor "Toti". He tried really hard to keep the Spanish government from collecting Social Security and pensions for people employed at Bethel.
118 comments:
The Awake! had this to say: (g80 1/22 pp. 13-15) The End of Today’s Economic Systems
The possibility of today’s economic systems crashing has been a more frequent topic of discussion among economists lately.
The American Institute for Economic Research makes the following observations:
“During the next several years, the following economic developments seem highly probable:
“A severe and prolonged worldwide depression. . . .
“During a prolonged depression, social disorder might well become extreme. . . .Any person or family who appears to be substantially better off than those who are most adversely affected may become the target for mob violence.”
“Into the streets they will throw their very silver, and an abhorrent thing their own gold will become”
Concerning what lies ahead for the entire world, the Bible speaks of a “great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world’s beginning until now, no, nor will occur again.” During that time, paper money will be worthless. Why, Bible prophecy even says: “Into the streets they will throw their very silver, and an abhorrent thing their own gold will become. Neither their silver nor their gold will be able to deliver them in the day of Jehovah’s fury.”—Ezek. 7:19.
No human leader, nor any form of human government, will be able to forestall the coming “great tribulation,” since it is God’s judgment against this present wicked system. That is why his Word warns: “Do not put your trust in nobles, nor in the son of earthling man, to whom no salvation belongs.” (Ps. 146:3) What, then, is the right course to take? The Bible answers: “Trust in Jehovah with all your heart and do not lean upon your own understanding.”—Prov. 3:5.
In addition, such ones will have the assurance of God’s protection during the coming crash, and of surviving into a righteous new system. (1 John 2:15-17; Ps. 37:27, 34, 37)
“Raise yourselves erect and lift your heads up, because your deliverance is getting near”
So, regardless of how severe the money squeeze becomes, there is the sure hope of the best of times directly ahead in God’s new order. —Luke 21:28.
I think you better come up with some facts to back up your assertion as to why he was reassigned. Then again, you messed up on the pioneer hour decrease and have kept silent about it. Good job!
The letters from Social Security and Pensions, from Spain Goverment:
http://johnhenrykurtz.blogspot.com/2008/09/y-conocern-la-verdad-y-la-verdad-los_24.html
http://www.boe.es/boe/dias/2007/12/22/pdfs/A53061-53061.pdf
So what?
who cares?
Why is what you write all about what people do?
It is been told that in 2006 two former bethelites sent a complaint to the authorities about the social insurance and all rest of it.
He is a useless as a legal adviser.
The authorities sent an inspection to Bethel and sey up a decision that social security should be paid for the last 5 years...lost of million for them.
The decision was published in the goverment publications in 2007.
"It is been told that in 2006 two former bethelites sent a complaint to the authorities about the social insurance and all rest of it."
Apostates suck
LGB does have inside ifo, traitor that he is....
Just heard the Dec KM will announce the pioneer hours cut to 50 for regular pioneers and 30 for auxillery pioneers.
Time is running out Judas to repent your wicked ways. We are clearly getting to the end of this system of things.
And yet another cult member wrote: "We are clearly getting to the end of this system of things."
Yes, we've heard that one already. It's been 'just around the corner' since 1874. I'm quaking in my boots.
Here's some advice. Prepare to grow old and die, just like EVERY single other human in history.
IF ONLY we could be swept away into a Paradise. Or, meet Allah and get 72 virgins.
Keep on dreaming, pal. Keep on dreaming. You've been sold a rotten lot of goods, just like I was.
I've left the Watchtower lies and life is grand.
I can now focus on the real Christ Jesus and my real friends and family.
Theocratic Joker wrote:
"The letter from Watchtower Headquarters to the Spanish congregations makes it seems like it was their idea to give the brothers Social Security and pensions...saying what a loving arrangement to provide for those who've worked so long…"
TJ, please give us the opportunity to read that letter by posting a copy of it here or providing a link to where we might read it.
If the Organization has in fact lovingly provided for the Bethelites of Spain with Social Security, then we can expect that EVERY BETHELITE in EVERY COUNTRY should be covered by some form of Social Security.
If it turns out that it is ONLY the brothers at Spain’s Bethel who are covered by Social Security, then I shall believe your assertion that the GB has taken credit for what was not due.
I’d appreciate your using your contacts to check with Bethelites in other countries who’s governments offer retirement benefits (like the USA; UK, Canada, Australia and Germany) to find out if THEY are now covered by some form of Social Security. The answer will be a deciding factor in this discussion.
Thanks.
BTW, IMHO, this is a much more important topic than the reason for "Toti's" apparent reassignment.
JHK, thanks for the links you provided. Now if only we can see what the WT wrote...
VOICE said:
"So what." "Who cares."
Sheesh, kid! No wonder some people think you are Ronde reincarnated.
If you don’t care, why are you here?
You—not I--have put your life in the hands of a group of men who you can neither number nor name, and couldn’t pick out of a police line-up if you had to.
These men say they alone 'channel' for God of this Universe and you buy it without so much as a crossing thought as to how it is that the “Almighty” got so feeble that He couldn’t’ take care of His own business without the help of a voting committee!
Pah-leez!
We are Jehovah's Witnesses, we do not have a Watchtower fantasy.
Only apostates worship the Watchtower.
"You—not I--have put your life in the hands of a group of men who you can neither number nor name, and couldn’t pick out of a police line-up if you had to."
Oh really?
How is that done?
Daniel: I've been lurking here for a few weeks. Just wanted to say:
1) I agree that the subject of the social security wages/benefits is much more important than one man's reassignment. I did see the links in one poster's comments, but has this subject been summarized in another post?
2) This blog obviously has an agenda. If you don't agree with that agenda, it's awfully perplexing why you continually return, faithfully reading post after post and then adding imbecilic comments like "So? And your point?". At the risk of being presumptuous, I'd wager that these people are so fascinated by this blog because of their own crises of conscience. It's only a matter of time before they flip-flop and become the Watchtower's more vociferous detractors.
Ronde wrote: "Only apostates worship the Watchtower"
Up is down, blue is red, etc, etc.
Cognitive Dissonance at its finest.
"Spanish Branch Overseer Demoted Because He Lost His Case In Court"
LOL! Top dog or Bethel dishwasher, at least he's got Social Security now!
Ronde, when are you going to admit that you are Voice of Reason? Not that it really matters though because your reasonings expose you.
Your "who cares" responses have appeared under many aliases.
What you feel to understand is that "other" people (not you personally) do indeed care.
The real truth about JW's is important for all to see (both JW's and non-JW's).
www.freeminds.org
Like someone else said, if you really don't care - why are you here? (You would think that GBL was talking only to you.)
Ronde
Your still and idiot
Ronde
Your still an idiot.
This blog obviously has an agenda. If you don't agree with that agenda, it's awfully perplexing why you continually return, faithfully reading post after post and then adding imbecilic comments like "So? And your point?". At the risk of being presumptuous, I'd wager that these people are so fascinated by this blog because of their own crises of conscience. It's only a matter of time before they flip-flop and become the Watchtower's more vociferous detractors."
No, where did you ever get such a crazy idea?
It is simply the phrase, Keep your friends close and your enemies closer. This blog and other anti-Witnesses are enemies to the true God and the good news. So we keep an eye on what God's enemies are doing.
Ronde, where in the Bible does this statement come from: "Keep your friends close and your enemies closer"?
Or, is this another quote from one of your worldly movies, like the quotes you took from the Rocky movie. LOL
Ronde, you are some sort of hybrid JW. Most likely reproved or DF'd and trying to take on all exJW's as your calling from Jehovah to set things straight with Him?
Whatever the case, you need to assess what you are trying to accomplish here. The reason I say that is because I don't see you accomplishing anything accept making a fool of youself and by extension, all JW's.
Where does it say that Ronde posted that or anything?
Letter from Spain Branch to all congregations about the GB's gift of Social Security and pensions to bethelites.
http://johnhenrykurtz.blogspot.com/2008/09/y-conocern-la-verdad-y-la-verdad-los.html
Theocratic Joker posted: "They praised themelves in the letter saying what a loving arrangement to provide for those who've worked so long in furthering Kingdom interests. What a loving arrangement indeed, when you need the Courts to force your hand!"
It is par for the course. A similar story is behind the institution of the 'donation arrangement'. Give the followers one story of a ‘loving simplified arrangement’, while the Organization behind Jehovah’s Witnesses was forced to do so.
In a February 21, 1990 letter to congregations, the Society explained the new policy this way…
“By adopting the distribution of literature based completely on donation, Jehovah's people are able to greatly simplify our Bible education work and separate ourselves from those who commercialize religion.”
However, here is the breakdown of events from what really transpired:
-Early in 1980 State of California informs Jimmy Swaggart Ministries that tax is due for religious books and tapes sold in the state since 1974. Swaggart does eventually pay the tax--$183,000.00--but sues for a refund. This is the beginnings of the case’s movement toward the U.S. Supreme Court.
-In February, 1989 the U.S. Supreme Court rules it is illegal for Texas (along with 14 other states) to exempt religious books from sales tax. Interestingly, some states had been taxing religious books all along.
-During the summer of 1989, the Organization behind Jehovah’s Witnesses distributes "free" books released at conventions throughout the United States. Jehovah’s Witnesses are instructed to place donations in contribution boxes to cover the cost of the publication.
-On June 22, 1989 the Organization behind Jehovah’s Witnesses, files Amicus Curiae ("friend of the court") brief with the U.S. Supreme Court for the Jimmy Swaggart case. Others file similar briefs include National Council of Churches and Society for Krishna Consciousness.
-January 17, 1990 the U.S. Supreme Court rules against Jimmy Swaggart Ministries, declaring that the sales tax must be paid.
-On February 9, 1990 the Organization behind Jehovah’s Witnesses prepares a letter for congregations announcing that literature will no longer be sold at Kingdom Hall and no price will be set in door-to-door distribution [a.k.a. ‘simplified arrangement’].
-By February 25, 1990 the February 9th letter from the Organization behind Jehovah’s Witnesses is read at Sunday meetings of Jehovah's Witnesses throughout the United States.
-Starting with the March 1, 1990 Watchtower the new policy of distributing literature without naming a price goes into effect immediately.
-The March 15, 1990, WATCHTOWER magazine and March 22nd AWAKE!--printed earlier--still say "25 cents (U.S.) a copy" and "$5.00 (U.S.) per year." The April 1, 1990, Watchtower no longer carries a price.
The fact that the Watchtower of March 15 and Awake 22 still stated the printed cost shows further evidence of it not being a well planned ‘simplifying arrangement’, but a quick change to save the Organization behind Jehovah’s Witnesses money. The needs and consideration of the followers and readers was not put first, but once again the Organization’s business is the most important thing. Does that read as from an organization claiming has Christ as the Head of the Congregation and is being led by the Holy Spirit?
If any deny the fact that the Organization behind Jehovah's Witnesses actually filed a legal brief in Jimmy Swaggart's case, all the court documents are easily and readily available on the internet. Just perform a search for it.
Voice of Reason said...Why is what you write all about what people do?
I really feel sorry for you Voice of Reason. Some post you question why attack the Watchtower, it's the people that matter not the organization. In other posts you question why people are being written about. Do you realize it is just grasping at straws?
No matter how you look at it, the Watchtower Society is just like any other relgion/sect at best, and a cult at worst. They are no better than another organizations claim they have they superior ways. Your defense arguments can be applied and used for anyone who is standing behind their beliefs.
It still does not make it right or truth. And while you have chosen to continue supporting and defending JWs - which I'll presume is out of sincerity - does not make everyone else evil/bad/wicked or/and insincere.
Many of come tho the knowledge that the teachings of JWs are not all correct and that it is actually harmful. Jesus Christ has become the answer for those still needing something to look at for direction beside a man-made Faithful and Discreet Slave Class which does not exist in the Bible. Remember, Jesus wants all of us to be Faithful and Discreet as individuals.
Anonymous said...Where does it say that Ronde posted that or anything?
That means nothing.
The Questioner said...I think you better come up with some facts to back up your assertion as to why he was reassigned. Then again, you messed up on the pioneer hour decrease and have kept silent about it. Good job!
Is it January already? I guess until then the Pioneer hour decrease will not be in effect.
Even IF LGB is wrong, I guess they can claim new light and new understanding...You know just like the Watchtower.
At least it did not cost anyone their life, unlike the Watchtower's flip-flop stance on Organ Transplants and the still in effect blood transfusion doctrines.
Voice of Reason said...
"You—not I--have put your life in the hands of a group of men who you can neither number nor name, and couldn’t pick out of a police line-up if you had to."
Oh really? How is that done?
Stop playing coy. As any JW is completely aware of the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses [a.k.a. A group of men] uses the Watchtower magazine to voice their doctrines and "new light" teachings according to their interpretations of scripture using selective verses from their copy [New World Translation] of the Bible.
Anonymous...So we keep an eye on what God's enemies are doing.
Naughty-Naught Anonymous. That's exactly what you should not be doing. According to the teachings of the Watchtower you should not even glance at Apostate sites and/or information.
It is a step in the right direction though. Think independently, think critical, think period. Don't follow a bunch of old guys in Bethel and their twisted version of life and the Bible.
Anonymous said...LOL! Top dog or Bethel dishwasher, at least he's got Social Security now!
Absolutely!!! Too bad a supposed Holy Spirit did not direct a supposed God's Spirit-directed Organization to make the provisions, but Satan's governments did.
What a loving provision of Satan to force the WTS to provide Social Security to its memeber(s)!
anon 3:37...don't you know that the Society has always, always told the JW's NOT to be surfing the net for anything about JW's, unless it's the official WTBS site? Anything else can lead to being led astray? If you are not tempted to be misled, then you should not be on here reading ANYTHING! I never did for 7 years after I left, so it's been just in the last few months that I could break my mind free of those old shackles & actually read something online about the JW's. You should not be tempted, as you are told not to be doing this over & over! You are disobedient. Either poop or get off the pot...so to speak!
Sheeplike said...The Awake! had this to say: (g80 1/22 pp. 13-15) The End of Today’s Economic Systems
Wow...that was written when they still had that literal 1914 generation belief. They must have been preparing people for the end which is suppose to have become before the 70-80 years since 1914 passed.
Whoops...that's right they changed that teaching right around the 80 years have passed mark! New light, after our false teaching about a generation and the "Creator's Promise":
"Why Awake is Published...Most important, this magazine builds confidence in the CREATOR'S PROMISE of a peaceful and secure new world BEFORE the generation that SAW the events of 1914 passes away." {Awake for seven and a half years up to Oct 22 1995}
"Why Awake is Published...Most important, this magazine builds confidence in the Creator's promise of a peaceful and secure world that is about to replace the present wicked, lawless system of things." {Awake from Nov 8 1995} [Reference to '1914 generation' deleted]
Too bad the WT didn't learn after all the leading it did to make JWs believe the end was going to be in 1975.
Anonymous said...Apostates suck
A Biblical definition (As opposed to the Jehovah's Witnesses definition) is someone who denies Jesus and His teachings. Most Chrisitans certainly do not do such a thing.
Jehovah's Witnesses on the other hand, strip Jesus of His deity - His God-Ship. That make Jehovah's Witnesses apostates.
The donation arrangement is simplified because the publishers and congregations do not have to collect sales tax and figure out pricing anymore.
"Stop playing coy. As any JW is completely aware of the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses [a.k.a. A group of men] uses the Watchtower magazine to voice their doctrines and "new light" teachings according to their interpretations of scripture using selective verses from their copy [New World Translation] of the Bible. "
Yeah, but how is that done to where we put our lives in their hands?
Voice of Reason said...The donation arrangement is simplified because the publishers and congregations do not have to collect sales tax and figure out pricing anymore.
You really have your own brand of JW religion - Don't you?
Prior to the donation arrangement in the U.S., JW's asked 25 cents for each journel there was no sales tax added on to the figure.
The donation arrangment had not a thing to do with the publishers and every thing to do with the Watchtower Society not wanting to pay sales tax despite their efforts and "friend of the court" filling with Jimmy Swaggart to prevent it.
Voice of Reason said...Yeah, but how is that done to where we put our lives in their hands?
Research the Watchtower Society's historical teachings on Vaccines, Organ Transplants, Rape (Including a woman MUST cry/yell out in order to not be a fornicator and disfellowshipped), and of course the well known blood transfusion issue.
If you (apparently) can think for yourself (You don't avoid so-called apostate) sites. That's fantastic! However, for many the psychological conditioning received by the Watchtower put their life in serious danger both in the past and present. If you do not THINK so - Again good for you. However, others do THINK the Watchtower does so. The important thing is for people to THINK, examine, invetigate and question anything/anyone tells them. Even more so investigate an organization who claims an exclusive connection with God Almighty.
"It is simply the phrase, Keep your friends close and your enemies closer. This blog and other anti-Witnesses are enemies to the true God and the good news. So we keep an eye on what God's enemies are doing."
Chad? It that you?
For those who may not be aware of real truth's statement concerning the historical teachings of the Organization behind Jehovah's Witnesses regarding the issue of rape, please examine the following:
***
“Thus if a Christian woman does not cry out and does not put forth every effort to flee, she would be viewed as consenting to the violation. The Christian woman who wants to keep clean and obey God’s commandments, then, if faced with this situation today, needs to be courageous and to act on the suggestion made by the Scriptures and scream. Actually this counsel is for her welfare; for, if she should submit to the man’s passionate wishes, she would not only be consenting to fornication or adultery, but be plagued by the shame. There would be shame, not only from the repulsiveness of the experience, but of having been coerced into breaking God’s law by having sex connections with one other than a legal marriage mate.” (The Watchtower, 1-15-64, p.63)
***
***
“Would it be different if the man had a weapon and threatened to kill you if you did not submit? No, the Scriptures plainly state that Christians are under obligation to ‘flee from fornication.’ (1 Cor. 6:18) It is true that you face the possibility of death in this case.” (Watchtower, 6/1/68, p. 348)
***
***
“If she did not scream she would be as good as dead anyhow…Also, that if she did not scream she would ruin her relationship with Jehovah God and the Christian congregation; that then she would be disfellowshipped or excommunicated from it and that this would be worse than being killed as far as she was concerned.” (Awake!, 3/8/74, p. 14)
***
***
“She told him that if he touched her she would scream as he had never heard anyone scream before. She explained that if she did not she would ruin her relationship with Jehovah God and the Christian congregation….A Christian woman is under obligation to resist, for the issue of obedience to God’s law to ‘flee from fornication’ is involved.” (Watchtower, 10/15/80, p. 7)
***
***
“Treat Him Respectfully – The intended victim should remember that the rapist is a human. No doubt there are circumstances in his life that have precipitated his behavior. So although a woman should not cower in fear and permit a rapist to intimidate her, at the same time she should treat him understandingly as a fellow human.” (Awake!, 2/22/84, p. 24)
***
***
“But if I gave in and he raped me, I would eventually die and have no hope of a resurrection.” (Awake!, 2/22/84, p. 25)
***
***
“...If a woman does not cry out when attacked, it indicates she is submitting to the man and is committing a sin against Jehovah." (Awake! 8/22/89, p. 24)
***
Doesn't exactly sound like something Jesus would make his followers believe, huh? Nonetheless, this is exactly what the Organization behind Jehovah's Witnesses taught its followers.
"Prior to the donation arrangement in the U.S., JW's asked 25 cents for each journel there was no sales tax added on to the figure."
And...?
But if states ruled that the literature was taxable then the congregations would have to pay X% of the price and pass that on. What a mess. It is the publishers who would have to collect it, but it would be part of the cover price, from the people and the congregation would collect it from the people.
"The donation arrangment had not a thing to do with the publishers and every thing to do with the Watchtower Society not wanting to pay sales tax despite their efforts and "friend of the court" filling with Jimmy Swaggart to prevent it. "
That shows the complete ignorance of the apostaposers. The WTBTS would not be a part of it as they are manufacturers. The WTBTS would not pay anything as they do not sell to the public, other than if people go to the Bethel bookstore and get literature.
It would be the congregations that collect it and there may be an arrangement where they would pass it to the Society and they would forward it to the states like many other businesses with multi-state presence do.
But that would add tons of paperwork.
"Research the Watchtower Society's historical teachings on Vaccines, Organ Transplants, Rape (Including a woman MUST cry/yell out in order to not be a fornicator and disfellowshipped), and of course the well known blood transfusion issue."
And we had and have the choice to do what we want in such matters. We could take vaccines and organ transplants if we wanted.
Blood is bad medicine so wise people don't take it anyway. As for rape, it is not true that a woman must scream as there is no way to prove that she did or didn't. But the principle applies that she must resist.
"If you (apparently) can think for yourself (You don't avoid so-called apostate) sites."
It is hard to tell apostates that they are stupid losers if those sites are avoided.
" That's fantastic! However, for many the psychological conditioning received by the Watchtower put their life in serious danger both in the past and present."
Actually the opposite is true. People who follow what is written have better lives.
" If you do not THINK so - Again good for you. However, others do THINK the Watchtower does so. The important thing is for people to THINK, examine, invetigate and question anything/anyone tells them. Even more so investigate an organization who claims an exclusive connection with God Almighty."
I question everything. That is why I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses.
"Anonymous said...for you anonymous who complained about using anonymous for posting comments: look yourself at the mirror. don't talk to much"
I agree. And the ones who change names (ahem Joepublish) also.
"Chad? It that you?"
Yeah, it is me hanging here.
" the Organization behind Jehovah's Witnesses taught its followers. "
What is this organization?
Isn't that which is behind Jehovah's Witnesses, the Bible?
And those quotes from the Watchtowers and Awakes do not represent the beliefs of Jehovah's Witnesses. I don't know why you posted them.
Voice of reason, keep convincing yourself of your twisted logic and explaining everything that is in print as either something Jehovah's Witnesses don't follow or follow if they want to as it is their choice.
Each time you respond you seem to have a selective logic which applies only in certain cases but then defies others. The Watchtower has taught you well.
Voice of Reason...And those quotes from the Watchtowers and Awakes do not represent the beliefs of Jehovah's Witnesses. I don't know why you posted them.
That's a flat out lie. Of course it represents the Witnesses. It is their flagship publication where they receive new light and study from it every week as well as distribute it more than any other publication (Including their twisted version of the Bible). Who are you kidding? At least try to sound reasonable and honest.
"Each time you respond you seem to have a selective logic which applies only in certain cases but then defies others. The Watchtower has taught you well. "
If a person does not read the Watchtower, then how can a person be taught by the Watchtower?
Voice of Reason (alias Ronde) lyingly said: "And those quotes from the Watchtowers and Awakes do not represent the beliefs of Jehovah's Witnesses. I don't know why you posted them."
Now let's see what the GB of Jehovah's Witnesses have said regarding these journals:
(From 1987 3/1 Watchtower study article:)
{Note the Sub-title!}
"The Watchtower and Awake!: Champions of Truth"
"15 The “faithful and discreet slave” class, the “watchman,” today uses the Watchtower magazine under the direction of the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses as its main channel for dispensing spiritual “food at the proper time.”
18... Each article in both The Watchtower and Awake! and every page, including the artwork, is scrutinized by selected members of the Governing Body before it is printed. They spend many hours in researching the Bible and other reference material to make sure that what is written is the truth and that it faithfully follows the Scriptures."
Of course, the reason that Ronde (alias Voice of Reason) would like to distance himself from these journals is because they contain many errors (read untruths).
For this reason, Ronde is a hybrid JW (like many of his associates) who are quite embarassed by the number of falsehoods found in these journals.
Ronde cannot stand when you quote from these journals, especially those quotes that contain failed prophecies, untruths, misleading/false statements, etc.
Let's see, how long before they change the generation again??? Or, how many other children are going to be influenced to pioneer (instead of seeking an eduction) because they are told the new system is very near, so near they don't have to be concerned about the future in this system of things!
Boy, JW's like Ronde are really hurting people - we can only hope that he/they will see the light... I'm optimistic about Ronde because he likes to visit sites that expose JW's teachings and history.
Yes, I do believe that Ronde/Voice of Reason/Anonymous has one foot out (even if he doesn't see it that way).
Any main-stream JW would be shocked at his presence on this site and thus his association with ex-members!
Apparently he feels the need to discipline them before Jehovah does at Armegeddon. Hey, isn't that running ahead of Jehovah???
"That's a flat out lie. Of course it represents the Witnesses."
No, it represented the writer's views at the time it was written.
But it does not represent what Jehovah's Witnesses today believe.
"It is their flagship publication where they receive new light and study from it every week as well as distribute it more than any other publication (Including their twisted version of the Bible)."
Wrong.
The study articles are not distributed other than to the congregation.
Who are you kidding? At least try to sound reasonable and honest.
"
Ronde wrote: "Blood is bad medicine so wise people don't take it anyway"
This is the stupidity resulting from believing that reading the Awake magazine is equal to a college education.
Blood saves the lives of people every day, including JWs. Those 'acceptable' fractions save people's lives.
"This is the stupidity resulting from believing that reading the Awake magazine is equal to a college education."
College education <> job
skills = job.
"Blood saves the lives of people every day, including JWs. Those 'acceptable' fractions save people's lives. "
Blood fractions are not blood.
"Any main-stream JW would be shocked at his presence on this site and thus his association with ex-members! "
So you admit there are exmembers here and you criticize me?
You are the sinners. The ones who need to repent. So you need to focus on yourselves.
"...we had and have the choice to do what we want in such matters. We could take vaccines and organ transplants if we wanted..."
Yeah, just like JWs have a 'choice' to have a blood transfusion today. But choose "yes" and see how fast you're disfellowshipped.
Ronde wrote: "Blood fractions are not blood"
Uh-huh.
Epic Failure.
It's ethical hypocrisy. JW lives are saved by blood fractions. There is only one reason that these fractions are available. Someone donated the blood, from which they were taken.
"witness 4 jesus said...Jehovah's Witnesses on the other hand, strip Jesus of His deity - His God-Ship. That make Jehovah's Witnesses apostates."
Jehovah's Witnesses believe what Jesus taught. The Father- Jehovah, was and is his God (John 20:17). Witnesses believe and teach exactly what is in the Lord's prayer concerning who God is.
Jesus is Divine and a Mighty God- but he is not his Father.
Anyone who believes otherwise is not Christian- a follower of Christ.
Anon 10/11 4:02PM
"It is been told that in 2006 two former bethelites sent a complaint to the authorities about the social insurance and all rest of it."
Gotta ask: Which demonstrates love of their neighbor--a corporation unwilling to provide benefits for those who work for it or the ones who fought for--and won--the protection their brothers were entitled too?
"Apostates suck."
This comment refers to the two former Bethelites who initiated the procedings which found that the Watchtower's workers should have been covered and were not. Such a remark is not uncommon for 'loyal' members of the Witz, whose attitude suggests that speaking the truth is wrong, but actually doing the wrong is alright.
A JW apologist wrote: "Jesus is Divine and a Mighty God- but he is not his Father. Anyone who believes otherwise is not Christian- a follower of Christ"
Again, you're admitting that you are polytheistic. There is no Scriptural support for more than ONE God. Yet, you say Jesus is a God. You then have two Gods. There is only ONE God.
Next, you imply that we believe Jesus is 'the Father'. I don't know anyone who believes this. Jesus is the Son.
Next, you go on to define what a Christian IS and what it ISN'T.
Are you born again? Is Christ your Mediator? If not, then YOU are the one who is not a Christian. There is one Shepherd, ONE flock.
Ronde replied, "So you admit there are exmembers here and you criticize me?"
What are you saying Ronde, that you too are an ex-member? Or, are you some hybrid JW who hides inner frustrations of their beliefs and release your tension on this web-blog?
Voice of Reason,
please check out:
(cut and paste into your browsers address box)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2Kwz3UWydA
Voice of Reason said...
Wrong.
The study articles are not distributed other than to the congregation.
Stop splitting hairs on the issue. You know very well that both the Watchtower and the Awake which are the publication provided by the so-called Faithful and Discreet Slave Class [As defined by JWs], are placed in the public's hands.
It is relatively recent there is the spilt between the public version of the Watchtower and what is studied in the congregation.
Either way, the teachings in either the congregation or public comes from a so-called Faithful and Discreet Slave Class of Jehovah's Witneeses that followers are admonished to pledge their loyality to...If you do not follow that it is your choice, but that is the teachings of the Watchtower Society.
Sheeplike said... Jesus is...is not his Father.
Agreed. Jesus is the Son, then there's the Father and the Holy Spirit. Separate beings and one God-Ship. You need to study the scriptures more to understand the principle and concept of the Trinity.
Voice of Reason said...You are the sinners. The ones who need to repent. So you need to focus on yourselves.
And you are not a sinner? You have not a thing to repent from? You do not need to focus on yourself? Are you perfect? Shouldn't you be cultivating the Fruits of The Spirit?
Are you truly convincing yourself that you're better than everyone else?
According to Romans 3:22-23:
"For there is no difference; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,"
There is NO DIFFERENCE - ALL HAVE SINNED. That includes you Voice of Reason. You and any JW is no better than another human being on this planet. Everyone sins. There is no difference.
"Yeah, just like JWs have a 'choice' to have a blood transfusion today. But choose "yes" and see how fast you're disfellowshipped. "
Of course, because the Bible says to abstain from blood. But it does not comment on vaccines or organ transplants unless they have blood.
Thus stop worry about what the Watchtower says and focus on the Bible and you will abstain from blood and make choices on the rest.
"JW lives are saved by blood fractions. There is only one reason that these fractions are available. Someone donated the blood, from which they were taken. "
Where do you get the idea that JWs can't give blood to create fractions. We don't give blood because it is put into a general stock to be transfused but blood can be given for tests and separated.
You people are so full of myths.
"Gotta ask: Which demonstrates love of their neighbor--a corporation unwilling to provide benefits for those who work for it or the ones who fought for--and won--the protection their brothers were entitled too?"
As Tina Turner says:"What's love got to do with it"?
It is not the Watchtower Society's job to provide benefits for the workers. If they have needs, then they can find work elsewhere. They are not a corporation out to produce profit for the owners. They do voluntary work of producing religious literature.
""Apostates suck."
"This comment refers to the two former Bethelites who initiated the procedings which found that the Watchtower's workers should have been covered and were not. "
NO, that comment is a truism in that apostates have evil ends and they do not work with people but work against them.
"Such a remark is not uncommon for 'loyal' members of the Witz, whose attitude suggests that speaking the truth is wrong, but actually doing the wrong is alright. "
AntiWitnesses do not speak truth. That is why they are anti's.
"A JW apologist wrote:"
The person used the alias of sheeplike. One need not give the name of JW apologist.
"'Jesus is Divine and a Mighty God- but he is not his Father. Anyone who believes otherwise is not Christian- a follower of Christ'
Again, you're admitting that you are polytheistic. There is no Scriptural support for more than ONE God. Yet, you say Jesus is a God. You then have two Gods. There is only ONE God."
And we do not believe in more than one God. We believe that Jesus is the son of the one God and thus is not God. But his being a god means that he was and is, but not when he was human, a divine spirit being greater than humans.
"Next, you imply that we believe Jesus is 'the Father'. I don't know anyone who believes this. Jesus is the Son."
The trinity is a mystery so you don't know what you believe.
"Are you born again? Is Christ your Mediator? If not, then YOU are the one who is not a Christian. There is one Shepherd, ONE flock."
No one is born again anymore. There are some that are anointed with holy spirit but they are not technically born again. And Christ mediated the new covenant with those anointed ones only.
Christians are followers of Christ. Not just anointed ones.
"What are you saying Ronde, that you too are an ex-member? Or, are you some hybrid JW who hides inner frustrations of their beliefs and release your tension on this web-blog? "
Ronde did not say that, I did.
No, I am not an exjw and never will be one. I don't have inner frustrations. I just hate exjws and their stupidity.
Voice of Reason said...Where do you get the idea that JWs can't give blood to create fractions.
It's irony and hypocritical. JWs are allowed the take fractions of blood but not whole blood. Yet, in order to obtain fractions they are sourced from whole blood. You are not abstaining from whole blood by taking pieces/fractions of it. They were better off with the teaching of not receiving any sort of blood (Whole or fractions).
This "fractions of blood" concept makes JWs look with more ridiculous than before. Especially considering the whole notion of not receiving blood transfusions due to the WTS interpretaion of scriputre is dumb enough in itself.
Let me ask you this...Are all JW Vegetarians? Do they eat hamburgers/stake? Do they cook extremely well-done all the red meat they eat? If not, they are ingestion whole blood every time they eat it.
voice of reason...I just hate exjws and their stupidity.
It doesn't read like you are applying the teachings of Jesus Christ. Is that a Watchtower teaching?
Voice of Reason said... No one is born again anymore.
So claims you and the teachings of the Watchtower. You can believe it all you want - No one else has to listen to those Anti-Christ teachings.
Voice of Reason said... The trinity is a mystery so you don't know what you believe.
Sorry to read that Voice of Reason. Do more bible study and research. Let the Holt Spirit open your eyes and heart to it. Do not wait on a bunch of men claiming to be a Faithful and Discreet slave class to give you scriptural truths!
Voice of Reason said... And we do not believe in more than one God. We believe that Jesus is the son of the one God and thus is not God. But his being a god means that he was and is, but not when he was human, a divine spirit being greater than humans.
Does the New World Translation Bible of JWs refer to Jesus as "a god" at John 1:1 or not?
If it does that makes Jesus "a god". It is plain and simple. If he is a god, but then JW's claim Jehovah is the god, you have multiple gods. You can ignore the logic, but that is what it means.
Voice of Reason said... And Christ mediated the new covenant with those anointed ones only.
So says you, other Jehovah's Witnesses and their beliefs and teachings.
It really is some claim. Christ mediated a new covenant with a so-called class of annointed people who all happen to belong to the same organization that made up the teaching. If one of those anoionted ones that organization, and leave JWs they are then no longer going to heaven and will be destroyed forever too.
JW's really need some new light from the Watchtower to help them with that one...lol.
to epitome
That video is just another lame attack on the Watchtower by making statements and quotes.
Do you all forget and ignore that there are Jehovah's Witnesses who are such because we believe in the Bible and do not worship the Watchtower?
Voice of Reason said...
That video is just another lame attack on the Watchtower by making statements and quotes.
Do you all forget and ignore that there are Jehovah's Witnesses who are such because we believe in the Bible and do not worship the Watchtower?
You mean the video attacks the Watchtower like the Watchtower attacks all other religions and beliefs that do not go along with their interpretations?
There certainly are JW's who believe the Bible. Unfortunately, many of them have a twisted version made by the people who back the Watchtower. JW's are taught not only loyalty to God and the Bible but to an Organization. If you do not believe that you are not accepting all the teachings of JWs. And then you sounds like any other member of any other religion.
If you are not following the Watchtower Organization and loyal submitting to its writings as directed by the Governing Body of JW, you are picking and choosing whta to follow, just like any other person in any other religion.
Don't deny the facts.
"Either way, the teachings in either the congregation or public comes from a so-called Faithful and Discreet Slave Class of Jehovah's Witneeses that followers are admonished to pledge their loyality to...If you do not follow that it is your choice, but that is the teachings of the Watchtower Society. "
And I don't see a problem with that.
Thus it is not a problem. If it were a problem, I would see a problem with it.
Get it?
Got it?
Good.
But as I said, being one of Jehovah's Witnesses is not about the teachings of the Watchtower Society. The teachings of the Watchtower Society are about being Jehovah's Witnesses. Get it right.
"It doesn't read like you are applying the teachings of Jesus Christ. Is that a Watchtower teaching? "
Teaching of Jesus?
Jesus hates exjws too, that is why they will be destroyed at armageddon.
But he loves them enough to call them back to serving him and that is why I am here to help you all come back to Christ.
Voice of Reason said: "[insert whatever insane, unbiblical teaching that pops into your head]"
"Spiritually Deficient since 1874!"
"The truth will set you free." - J. Christ
Watchtower will enslave you.
If Ronde has been sent from God, we all need to consider a new God.
:-)
Voice of Reason said...But as I said, being one of Jehovah's Witnesses is not about the teachings of the Watchtower Society. The teachings of the Watchtower Society are about being Jehovah's Witnesses. Get it right.
So as you stated: The teachings of the Watchtower Society (I.E. No blood transfusions, must follow and loyal listen to the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses, etc.) are about being a Jehovah's Witnesses.
What part of your own logic do you not understand? By your own admission for someone to understand what it is like to be a Jehovah's Witness (Being a Jehovah's Witness) they look to the teaching of the Watchtower Society.
Like I stated before it still does not change the fact that you pick and choose what to follow. Like any other follower of any other religion.
"must follow and loyal listen to the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses,"
Why is that such an issue?
Since the GB is the overseers of the worldwide congregation, if it is not a congregational matter, then it does not matter.
Voice of Reason said..."must follow and loyal listen to the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses,"
Why is that such an issue?
Since the GB is the overseers of the worldwide congregation, if it is not a congregational matter, then it does not matter.
There is no stipulation that a JW is to follow and loyally listen to the governing body of JWs on ONLY congregation matters. It includes ALL matters, and loyally following and submitting to all directions they give in the JW life. If you do not believe so or choose not to do so you are going against the governing body.
Voice of Reason said...Jesus hates exjws too, that is why they will be destroyed at armageddon.
Please quote chapter and verse where Jesus made or even implied such a statement.
Ronde wrote: "Why is that such an issue?"
Christians follow Christ alone. You follow a group of men. How many times do we have to answer the same questions for you?It's like talking to a brick wall.
Remember the kids' toys that you pull the string on, and they say stuff?
-----> Pull String on Ronde/VoR----
"The slave! The slave! Follow the slave or die! All non-JWs will die! Jehovah hates Chinese people! The Slave, people! The slave!"
You make it circular reasoning.
You state that JWs have to follow the GB in all matters as per the GB or they are going against the GB.
But I don't think they even want that kind of authority. They simply want you to behave yourselves and follow the Bible. They do not want you to follow them. They want you to serve with them.
"Please quote chapter and verse where Jesus made or even implied such a statement. "
No problem.
Rev 20:10 "devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone"
Since the devil is cast into the lake of fire, those who follow the devil, apostates, will follow him there.
Rev 20:15 "whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."
Since ones who are exjws have left the faith where one learns of the Word of life, then they leave the book of life.
"Christians follow Christ alone. "
While Christians follow the Christ as was taught in the Follow the Christ DC, Christians do not do so alone.
Christians serve with others, that is why the word "Christians" is plural.
"You follow a group of men."
And you make that statement based on what? Your ignorance?
See, this is what is great about OPINONS.
In my opinion, JWs will be among the first to be pitched into the Lake of Fire.
Isn't that nice?
Ronde wrote: "And you make that statement based on what? Your ignorance?"
If your religion prints it, you believe it.
Could it be any clearer?
We need the Bible, you need a group of men to INTERPRET the Bible, via their publications.
It is FUNNY how this Rodrigues had to go to the WORLDLY COURT SYSTEM to get what is rightlfully his from the Watchtower org. Shame on him for this!!!! And yet, good for him!!
If this REALLY were Jehovah's organization on earth wouldn't you think he would have had that covered so one of his 'special people' wouldn't have to go to Satan's world for help??
WOW!
P.S. vor...SHUT UP.
VOR said...Since ones who are exjws have left the faith
What faith? JW faith? Please. It's a/the true faith per your opinion or/and the opinions of maybe 7 million others. The other over 7 billion people have a different take on the matter.
Voice of Reason, replied, "That video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2Kwz3UWydA) is just another lame attack on the Watchtower by making statements and quotes."
VOR, those statements and quotes were ERRORS and UNTRUTHS! (It caused many to be mislead!)
The point being... no matter how much you feel you are going to the Bible for your faith, the explanation of those scriptures comes from the GB. And, as that video showed, the GB has been wrong (many times mind you) in the past.
So, what makes you feel you can trust them for any of their explanations of Bible scriptures?
Also, keep in mind, the GB has insisted that God gives them this understanding... if that's true, when mistakes are made, then by default it must be God that is wrong. But, that cannot be so, can it VOR?
You belong in this religion because your logic follows the circular reasonsing and excuses found in this religion, specifically its leaders - the Governing Body.
VOR...
Can you REALLY know for sure that the explanation of the "generation" will not change again?
epitome said:
"VOR, those statements and quotes were ERRORS and UNTRUTHS! (It caused many to be mislead!)"
So what about it? What does that have to do with Jehovah's Witnesses?
I keep saying that over and over that the Watchtower's faults of the past, present or future do not taint or nullify that Jehovah's Witnesses are the true religion. That is because Jesus is the truth, the messiah who died and redeemed us. Nothing that anyone does can change that.
The Watchtower only helps people to fulfill the preaching of the good news.
"The point being... "
No, there is no point other than you all like to criticize the Watchtower because you think that brings Jehovah's Witnesses down. You are wrong.
"no matter how much you feel you are going to the Bible for your faith, the explanation of those scriptures comes from the GB. And, as that video showed, the GB has been wrong (many times mind you) in the past."
That is the lamest excuse. Why don't you talk to people personally about that and we all will show you that you are wrong. Why can't you personally itemize those things? You can't because you would be shown that you are wrong.
Each JW knows the Bible truths from the Bible.
"So, what makes you feel you can trust them for any of their explanations of Bible scriptures?"
I don't trust them for any explanation. I have said that over and over. Come on.
epitome said:
"Can you REALLY know for sure that the explanation of the "generation" will not change again?"
Do I really care?
NO.
Do I know what it is now?
No.
That is because it has never changed.
It is the way that Jesus meant it to be and it has not changed nor will it.
VOR, are you ThirdWitness by any chance?
"VOR, are you ThirdWitness by any chance? "
I can only wish to be him.
No but we serve shoulder to shoulder in the faith.
'epitome said:
"Can you REALLY know for sure that the explanation of the "generation" will not change again?"
Do I really care?
NO.
Do I know what it is now?
No.
That is because it has never changed.
It is the way that Jesus meant it to be and it has not changed nor will it.'
JW to Catholic:
Do you know that your present interpretation of the Bible is wrong?
Catholic: Do I really care? NO.
JW: Do you know what you believe?
Catholic: No.
The Word of God has never changed. It is the way God meant it to be and it has not changed nor will it.
The Pope's thoughts, the Catholic churches thoughts on what it means are irrelevant. But I will stay Catholic because they have the truth.
JW: Just the same as us then.
Ronde (alias VOR) admitted, "I don't trust them [the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses] for any explanation. I have said that over and over. Come on."
For all JWs out there, interesting how you have members that don't "trust" the GB for their explanations/interpretations of the Bible. Yes, the ones hand-picked by God, the 144,000 are not to be "trusted". So all JW's publications - so-called Bible aids - which contain the GB's "explanations" and "interpretations" of scripture are NOT to be trusted either.
Thanks so much Ronde for clearly and succinctly stating what all of us have been blogging about under on this web-blog.
And, congratulations because you are on the same page - regarding the above - as all exJWs!
"And, congratulations because you are on the same page - regarding the above - as all exJWs! "
Nope, I will never be on the same page as exjws.
Afterall exjws like Joepublish are so lame that they are now anonymous.
But as I said, I don't need interpretations from the GB because the truth that JWs have stands regardless of who says it.
Welcome Ronde to a growing number of exJW's who have discovered what many current JW's don't want to admit.
Dear, Voice of Reason. I'm sorry, but if you're not Ronde, than I'm not Joepublish. LOL
"Welcome Ronde to a growing number of exJW's who have discovered what many current JW's don't want to admit. "
I won't answer for Ronde but I will say, that exjws are idiots who can't think for themselves because they ain't got enough braincells.
"Dear, Voice of Reason. I'm sorry, but if you're not Ronde, than I'm not Joepublish. LOL "
I am not Ronde.
Voice of Reason (alias Ronde) replied: "I won't answer for Ronde but I will say, that exjws are idiots who can't think for themselves because they ain't got enough braincells."
I'll let the readers of this blog make their own assessment:
www.freeminds.org
www.silentlambs.org
www.sixscreensofthewatchtower.com
www.jwfacts.com
You see Ronde... JW's are instructed to NOT read material outside the JW's. Now, I ask you... who is really using their braincells?
Voice of Reason (alias Ronde) replied: "I am not Ronde."
Voice of Reason. Let me ask you a question. Do you know what a lie is? Do you know what a half-truth is?
I'm just curious because I'm trying to see if in your head you have some justification for lieing.
You are Ronde and most who have followed this blog KNOW that you are Ronde. So, everytime you deny it, you make a fool of yourself.
Of course, that is no doubt not your REAL name and perhaps you are using that fact to justify your lieing. But you see, people on this blog don't know you're real name. They know your previous alias Ronde.
So, when you say that Voice of Reason is not Ronde... that is a lie.
I'm surprised your religion hasn't discussed with you that lieing is wrong.
Perhaps you forget who the father of the lie is???
Voice of Reason replied: "I won't answer for Ronde but I will say, that exjws are idiots who can't think for themselves because they ain't got enough braincells."
That pretty much tells me that you are indeed Ronde (your previous alias)!
"You see Ronde... JW's are instructed to NOT read material outside the JW's. Now, I ask you... who is really using their braincells? "
Because sites like the ones you listed do not have true information about JWs.
"You are Ronde and most who have followed this blog KNOW that you are Ronde. So, everytime you deny it, you make a fool of yourself."
I am not Ronde.
"Of course, that is no doubt not your REAL name and perhaps you are using that fact to justify your lieing. But you see, people on this blog don't know you're real name. They know your previous alias Ronde."
So what's the fricken problem?
"So, when you say that Voice of Reason is not Ronde... that is a lie."
So what you are asserting is that VOR WAS Ronde. So stating that VOR is not Ronde is true.
You need some coffee.
"That pretty much tells me that you are indeed Ronde (your previous alias)! "
So if it is previous, why do you call me that?
Shawn
"
Vaccines
"Vaccination is a direct violation of the holy law of Jehovah God" - The Golden Age, 1935-APR-24, Page 471
"Vaccination is a direct violation of the everlasting covenant that God made with Noah after the flood." - The Golden Age, 1931-JAN-4, Page 293.
"
Since when does the GA or the Watchtower set bans?
Ronde said, "So what you are asserting is that VOR WAS Ronde."
No, what I am asserting is that you need professional help from a mental health counselor.
Seriously Ronde... the longer you wait the worse your symtomps can get.
Just trying to help.
Ronde replied: "So what's the fricken problem?"
Another example of just how far JW's will go with their bad language.
Ronde, let me ask a question that others have asked you.
Are your parents aware of your behavior on this web-blog?
I ask because its obvious you don't care what Jehovah God feels about your behavior or your bad language.
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