Saturday, October 18, 2008

Difficult For The Watchtower To Get Their Story Straight

Scriptural foundation:
(1 John 4:1) . . .Beloved ones, do not believe every inspired expression, but test the inspired expressions to see whether they originate with God, because many false prophets have gone forth into the world.

(Deuteronomy 18:22) 22 when the prophet speaks in the name of Jehovah and the word does not occur or come true, that is the word that Jehovah did not speak. With presumptuousness the prophet spoke it. You must not get frightened at him.. . .
***w799/1pp.29-30pars.28-29TheRoyal"Shepherd"ofBibleProphecy***
Unlike the clergy class, those of the Jeremiah class have been sent by Jehovah to speak in his name
..... the Jeremiah class back up their message by quoting the words, "This is what Jehovah has said."

***
g933/22p.4WhySoManyFalseAlarms?***
Jehovah’s Witnesses, in their eagerness for Jesus’ second coming, have suggested dates that turned out to be incorrect. Because of this, some have called them false prophets. Never in these instances, however, did they presume to originate predictions ‘in the name of Jehovah.’ Never did they say, ‘These are the words of Jehovah.’—February 15, 1981, page 19.
presumptuous - full of, characterized by, or showing presumption or readiness to presume in conduct or thought.
Moses refers to presumptuousness, not lying. While liars would certainly be recognized as subject to this judgment, Moses did not say "lies" or "falsehood", he said "presumptuousness". A readiness to believe.

And less than 2 years after they claimed to speak in Gods name they denied ever having said it!

39 comments:

Anonymous said...

This is what has bothered me... the contradictions in their writings. These quotes that the GBL has extracted from the GB's literature expose this religion as NOT the one being the sole truthful religion. It's even painful to see the extent that the writers will arrange words to present an excuse for their mistakes and in arranging these words they forget what was said in the past publications.

Anonymous said...

Of course, the GB of JW's states that the light gets brighter and brighter, but what does the history of JW's teachings show?

http://wtsdissident.blogspot.com/2008/09/light-shines-more-and-more.html

Truth be Known said...

I just read that link immediately above... it is excellent.

Ronde, please read the entire article... it is well written and can help you see through the illogical explanation of mistakes from the GB.

Voice of Reason said...

"This is what has bothered me... the contradictions in their writings. "

None of this bothers me because I do not analyze the literature to that extent. I learned what Christianity is and follow it.

Voice of Reason said...

"Jehovah’s Witnesses, in their eagerness for Jesus’ second coming, have suggested dates that turned out to be incorrect. " & "Never in these instances, however, did they presume to originate predictions ‘in the name of Jehovah.’ Never did they say, ‘These are the words of Jehovah.’—"

And that is correct, they did not say that Jehovah said that or even that the Bible indicates that.

So no problem there.

"those of the Jeremiah class have been sent by Jehovah to speak in his name..... the Jeremiah class back up their message by quoting the words, "This is what Jehovah has said.""

That is different. They do that by using the Bible.

So the 'false alarms' are not from the Jeremiah class.

greg said...

I have the 1993 awake that says JWs are not false prophets because they never said "these are the words of Jehovah" when making a false prediction. ON THE VERY SAME PAGE is the prediction of THE CREATORS PROMISE that the generation alive in 1914 would see armageddon.

Anonymous said...

Ronde wrote: "So the 'false alarms' are not from the Jeremiah class."

Pulled your head out of the sand, long enough to lie to us. A cheerful Sunday to ya!

Voice of Reason said...

"I have the 1993 awake that says JWs are not false prophets because they never said "these are the words of Jehovah" when making a false prediction. ON THE VERY SAME PAGE is the prediction of THE CREATORS PROMISE that the generation alive in 1914 would see armageddon. "

And that bothers you?

Why?

Why would what was written in a magazine affect your service to Jehovah's with his people?

You let people stumble you from the road to life?

friend of voice of reason said...

Voice of Reason, please seek professional help immediately. You probably are suffering from schizophrenia or multiple personality disorder. You need a psychiatrist and probably medication. In many of your comments, you're double talking, illogical and almost incoherent at times. You are mentally unstable.

I sure hope this is not a result of being a part of Jehovah’s Witnesses for too long.

Shawn said...

"Voice of Reason said...

"This is what has bothered me... the contradictions in their writings. "

None of this bothers me because I do not analyze the literature to that extent. I learned what Christianity is and follow it."

====================================

That's funny since the topic of this blog post begins with a guideline for Christians, namely, to test every inspired expression to see whether it originates with God. VoR, this is your personal responsibility as a Christian. You can't do this by listening to a talk or reading one of the Watchtower Society's 'study aids'.

Voice of Reason said...

Shawn said:
"That's funny since the topic of this blog post begins with a guideline for Christians, namely, to test every inspired expression to see whether it originates with God. VoR, this is your personal responsibility as a Christian. You can't do this by listening to a talk or reading one of the Watchtower Society's 'study aids'. "


Well, listening to meetings talks and reading the literature is part of learning. I don't think that 'test every inspired expression to see whether it originates with God.' because we have the Bible. The issue now a days is to apply the Bible to our lives, not make an issue out of every doctrinal point.

As Shatner so well put it in SNL
"GET A LIFE, will you people?"

Shawn said...

Voice of Reason said...

"Jehovah’s Witnesses, in their eagerness for Jesus’ second coming, have suggested dates that turned out to be incorrect. " & "Never in these instances, however, did they presume to originate predictions ‘in the name of Jehovah.’ Never did they say, ‘These are the words of Jehovah.’—"

And that is correct, they did not say that Jehovah said that or even that the Bible indicates that.

So no problem there.

But there is a problem VoR. These people claim to be 'God's sole channel of communication' and at the same time issue one failed prophesy after another. Take a look a a couple of quotes from the Watchtower Society...

"The Watchtower is not the instrument of any man or set of men, nor is it published according to the whims of men. No man's opinion is expressed in The Watchtower. God feeds his own people, and surely God uses those who love and serve him according to his own will. Those who oppose The Watchtower are not capable of discerning the truth that God is giving to the children of his organization, and this is the very strongest proof that such opposers are not of God's organization." Watchtower 1931 Nov. 1 p.327

"It is vital that we appreciate this fact and respond to the directions of the "slave" as we would to the voice of God, because it is His provision." Watchtower 1957 June 15 p.370

and yes they did say that Jehovah and the Bible predicted the end of this system...

We see no reason in changing the figures - nor could we change them if we would. They are, we believe, God's dates, not ours. But bear in mind that the end of 1914 is not the date for the beginning, but for the end of the time of trouble.
The Watchtower July 15, 1894 p. 226

…the full end of the times of the Gentiles, i.e., the full end of their lease of dominion, will be reached in A.D. 1914; and that date will be the farthest limit of the rule of imperfect men.
The Time Is At Hand 1889 p. 76-77.


"those of the Jeremiah class have been sent by Jehovah to speak in his name..... the Jeremiah class back up their message by quoting the words, "This is what Jehovah has said.""

That is different. They do that by using the Bible.

You do this all the time. You use indefinite terms to the point were your rebuttal doesn't make any sense. "That is different"? What is 'That'? 'Different' from what? Please use some of the techniques you should have learned in the Theocratic Ministry School.


So the 'false alarms' are not from the Jeremiah class."

There is no 'Jeremiah class'. This is another Watchtower Society concoction crafted to bestow credibility and divine backing to the Watchtower Society. Since were on the topic of 'alarms', take a look at this. It turns out that the Watchtower Society itself claimed that "if that date pass it would merely prove that our chronology, our "alarm clock," went off a little before the time." -January 1st 1911 issue of the Watchtower

Voice of Reason said...

Shawn said:
"These people claim to be 'God's sole channel of communication' "

Well, don't focus on 'these people' focus on yourself and how you can be the channel. We are all to be preachers of the good news.

That is why I don't have that copout because I don't blame others, I focus on my own faith.

Anonymous said...

Just what is your faith Ronde???

Shawn said...

Voice of Reason said...

"I have the 1993 awake that says JWs are not false prophets because they never said "these are the words of Jehovah" when making a false prediction. ON THE VERY SAME PAGE is the prediction of THE CREATORS PROMISE that the generation alive in 1914 would see armageddon. "

And that bothers you?
Yes!

Why?

Because it was an out and out lie!

Why would what was written in a magazine affect your service to Jehovah's with his people?

Because the Watchtower is the primary means that the Watchtower Society uses to 'feed' its members.

*** km 3/94 p. 1 par. 1 Hold Fast the Public Declaration of Your Hope Without Wavering ***

1 The Watchtower Study is the primary means by which spiritual “food at the proper time” is provided for God’s people today.
***

*** km 4/90 p. 8 par. 2 Presenting the Good News—By Boldly Offering Subscriptions ***

2 How have you personally been helped by reading The Watchtower and Awake!? Likely we could each relate ways the magazines have helped us. Some might say that they have been the primary means of alerting us to the significance of the times in which we live.
***

...or at least the primary means that the Watchtower Society uses to alert us of the next prophesy that will fail.

*** km 5/83 p. 1 par. 5 Bearing Witness to the Truth ***

5 Since The Watchtower is a primary channel for dispensing the truth to others, we need to be well acquainted with each magazine we present.
***


You let people stumble you from the road to life?

Far from being 'stumbled', the exJWs on this and other blogs have recognized that the Watchtower Society's organization in not leading people down the 'road to life', but is misleading people from the actual teachings of Christ.

VoR, you're on the road to nowhere.

Voice of Reason said...

Shawn said:
"Because the Watchtower is the primary means that the Watchtower Society uses to 'feed' its members."

What about those of us who are not members of the Watchtower Society?

Since there are 7 million JWs and only 500 are members of the WTS, what about the rest of us?


"the exJWs on this and other blogs have recognized that the Watchtower Society's organization in not leading people down the 'road to life', but is misleading people from the actual teachings of Christ."

There is no such thing as an exjw. They are Witnesses who have lost faith and become inactive JWs.
In other words, they are ones who do not live up to their dedication to Jehovah God.

Shawn said...

Voice of Reason said...

Shawn said:
"That's funny since the topic of this blog post begins with a guideline for Christians, namely, to test every inspired expression to see whether it originates with God. VoR, this is your personal responsibility as a Christian. You can't do this by listening to a talk or reading one of the Watchtower Society's 'study aids'. "


Well, listening to meetings talks and reading the literature is part of learning. I don't think that 'test every inspired expression to see whether it originates with God.' because we have the Bible.

Ummm... the advice to 'test every inspired expression' comes from the Bible. Are you really that dumb?

The issue now a days is to apply the Bible to our lives, not make an issue out of every doctrinal point.

That's exactly what the Watchtower Society tells JWs to do.

*** w04 2/15 p. 17 par. 10 Guard Against Deception ***

10 Second, we love the organization that has taught us the precious truths that so plainly separate us from Babylon the Great. At the same time, we recognize that our knowledge of God’s purpose is not perfect; our understanding has undergone adjustments over the years. Loyal Christians are content to wait on Jehovah for all such refinements. (Proverbs 4:18) Meanwhile, we will not abandon the organization that God is pleased to use, for we see the clear evidence of his blessing upon it.—Acts 6:7; 1 Corinthians 3:6.
***

However, when it comes to religion, 'every doctrinal point' is important. Even the Watchtower Society thinks so...

*** w94 6/1 p. 10 par. 11 Have You Found the Right Religion? ***

Many of the clergy, although they have the Bible, use religion as a means to glorify themselves. They dilute pure truths with traditions and human philosophies
***

Unfortunately, the Watchtower Society is guilty of diluting the scriptures with their dispensational apocalypticism.


As Shatner so well put it in SNL
"GET A LIFE, will you people?"

Hey, if we're annoying you with the truth about the Watchtower Society, you can always go to your mother organization's official web site where you can have your 'ears tickled' all day.

Shawn said...

Voice of Reason said...

Shawn said:
"These people claim to be 'God's sole channel of communication' "

Well, don't focus on 'these people' focus on yourself and how you can be the channel. We are all to be preachers of the good news.

The statement that one should "focus on yourself and how you can be the channel" is not a teaching of the Watchtower Society. Since you are promoting a teaching that is not in line with the Society, you are promoting a sect and are in line for being disfellowshipped.

*** w60 7/15 p. 439 par. 2 Staying Awake with the “Faithful and Discreet Slave” ***

. The facts show that during this time and up to the present hour the “slave” class has served as God’s sole collective channel for the flow of Biblical truth to men on earth. Just as the early Christian congregation collectively served as the channel of communication from heaven to earth, so in our time. (Eph. 3:10) Abundant spiritual food and amazing details as to the doing of God’s will have been flowing through this unique channel actually as a miraculous evidence of the operation of holy spirit.
***

Notice that the article doesn't say anything about individual JWs becoming the 'sole channel'. No the 'faithful and discreet slave' is 'unique' in its relationship with God. So we can chalk your statement up to good ol' VoR-just-made-this-up-to-try-to-win-an-argument-doctrine.

From the Pay Attention to the Flock book that elders use to determine when to disfellowship a member...

"Apostasy includes action taken against true worship of
Jehovah or his established order among his dedicated
people . (Jer . 17 :13 ; 23 :15 ; 28 :15, 16 ; 2 Thess . 2 :9, 10)
Persons who deliberately spread (stubbornly hold to and
speak about) teachings contrary to Bible truth as taught
by Jehovah's Witnesses are apostates ."


That is why I don't have that copout because I don't blame others, I focus on my own faith.

Well I hope that works for you, because, if the elders in your congregation find out what you're doing, you'll be all alone to focus on your own faith.

Shawn said...

Voice of Reason said...

Shawn said:
"Because the Watchtower is the primary means that the Watchtower Society uses to 'feed' its members."

What about those of us who are not members of the Watchtower Society?

Since there are 7 million JWs and only 500 are members of the WTS, what about the rest of us?

Wrong again VoR... You're baptized into the Watchtower Society...

*** w85 6/1 p. 30 Subjecting Ourselves to Jehovah by Dedication ***

At the close of the convention baptism talk, the baptism candidates will be in position to answer with depth of understanding and heartfelt appreciation two simple questions that serve to confirm that they recognize the implications of following Christ’s example. The first question is:

On the basis of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, have you repented of your sins and dedicated yourself to Jehovah to do his will?

The second is:

Do you understand that your dedication and baptism identify you as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses in association with God’s spirit-directed organization?

Having answered yes to these questions, candidates are in a right heart condition to undergo Christian baptism.
***


"the exJWs on this and other blogs have recognized that the Watchtower Society's organization in not leading people down the 'road to life', but is misleading people from the actual teachings of Christ."

There is no such thing as an exjw. They are Witnesses who have lost faith and become inactive JWs.
In other words, they are ones who do not live up to their dedication to Jehovah God.

Wrong again. There are plenty of exJWs, myself included, who have not merely 'lost faith and become inactive' but have actively rejected the teachings of the Watchtower Society as false. I am very active in helping people recognize this fact. I've publicly declared that the Watchtower Society, its organization, doctrine and direction, do not represent Jehovah's will.

Voice of Reason said...

As Shatner so well put it in SNL
"GET A LIFE, will you people?"

"Hey, if we're annoying you with the truth about the Watchtower Society, you can always go to your mother organization's official web site where you can have your 'ears tickled' all day."

It is not that it is truth about the Watchtower Society, it is that the annoyance is that it is not relevant to Jehovah's Witnesses.

Voice of Reason said...

Shawn said:
"'What about those of us who are not members of the Watchtower Society?
Since there are 7 million JWs and only 500 are members of the WTS, what about the rest of us?'

Wrong again VoR... You're baptized into the Watchtower Society...
Do you understand that your dedication and baptism identify you as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses in association with God’s spirit-directed organization?"

You are wrong again.

There is no baptism into the Watchtower Society. The WTS is not God's spirit directed organization. It is a printing company used by God's spirit directed organization. The spirit directed organization is all Jehovah's Witnesses who are organized to do Jehovah's will.


"'There is no such thing as an exjw. They are Witnesses who have lost faith and become inactive JWs.
In other words, they are ones who do not live up to their dedication to Jehovah God.'

Wrong again. There are plenty of exJWs, myself included, who have not merely 'lost faith and become inactive' "

You did not have faith at all.

"but have actively rejected the teachings of the Watchtower Society as false."

What about the teachings of Jehovah's Witnesses who are not part of the Watchtower Society? I am not a member of the Watchtower, what about my teachings?

" I am very active in helping people recognize this fact. I've publicly declared that the Watchtower Society, its organization, doctrine and direction, do not represent Jehovah's will."

The problem is that you do not know Jehovah's will.

I publicly declare the kingdom good news with millions of other Jehovah's Witnesses and together we form a congregation to do Jehovah's will.

Anonymous said...

Ronde wrote: "You did not have faith at all."

Still reading hearts, eh? You can Christ, man. You and Christ.

I wish I had that power.

http://www.jwfacts.com/

Shawn said...

Voice of Reason said...

You are wrong again.

There is no baptism into the Watchtower Society. The WTS is not God's spirit directed organization. It is a printing company used by God's spirit directed organization. The spirit directed organization is all Jehovah's Witnesses who are organized to do Jehovah's will.

Well, not according to the Watchtower Society...

*** w60 7/15 p. 444 par. 18 Staying Awake with the “Faithful and Discreet Slave” ***

18 Lastly, we can stay awake by being respectful and obedient. We know that Jehovah is using the Watch Tower Society of the “faithful and discreet slave” as a governing agency on earth today. It deserves our respect and fullest support. It is written: “Remember those who are governing you, who have spoken the word of God to you, and as you contemplate how their conduct turns out imitate their faith.” (Heb. 13:7) At times there are heard from immature ones slighting remarks, careless talk or outright criticism of the Society’s operations. Such is outright lack of respect for the means Jehovah is remarkably using to perform his will in this pre-Armageddon time. Truly the Society as directed by God’s holy spirit merits our deepest respect and wholehearted obedience.
***

Notice that "Jehovah is using the Watch Tower Society of the “faithful and discreet slave” as a governing agency on earth today." The Watchtower Society is the governing agency, not you or any other individual JW.

Here's the official description of the difference that VoR is talking about...

*** w98 3/15 pp. 18-19 par. 3 Living Up to Christian Dedication in Freedom ***

3 Someone may argue that the way the Witnesses speak about the Watch Tower Society—or more often just “the Society”—indicates that they view it as more than a legal instrument. Do they not consider it to be the final authority on matters of worship? The book Jehovah’s Witnesses—Proclaimers of God’s Kingdom clarifies this point by explaining: “When The Watchtower [June 1, 1938] referred to ‘The Society,’ this meant, not a mere legal instrumentality, but the body of anointed Christians that had formed that legal entity and used it.” The expression therefore stood for “the faithful and discreet slave.” (Matthew 24:45) It is in this sense that the Witnesses generally used the term “the Society.” Of course, the legal corporation and “the faithful and discreet slave” are not interchangeable terms. Directors of the Watch Tower Society are elected, whereas Witnesses who make up ‘the faithful slave’ are anointed by Jehovah’s holy spirit.

Notice that it says "“When The Watchtower [June 1, 1938] referred to ‘The Society,’ this meant, not a mere legal instrumentality, but the body of anointed Christians that had formed that legal entity and used it.”"

It is in this sense that I and others on this blog refer to the Watchtower Society and we have a precedent in the Watchtower Society's own publications.


You did not have faith at all.

Who are you to tell me where my faith was at any time? If two people fall in love, but then break up, does that mean they were never in love? No, of course not! That assertion is absurd.

"but have actively rejected the teachings of the Watchtower Society as false."

What about the teachings of Jehovah's Witnesses who are not part of the Watchtower Society? I am not a member of the Watchtower, what about my teachings?

Your teachings are irrelevant, and as I've pointed out, put you in line to be disfellowshipped. No one cares what you believe because you are not actually following the direction given by the 'faithful and discreet slave.

" I am very active in helping people recognize this fact. I've publicly declared that the Watchtower Society, its organization, doctrine and direction, do not represent Jehovah's will."

The problem is that you do not know Jehovah's will.

And you do? You don't even know what the organization you belong to teaches. Much like the studies that have shown that many terrorists do not know the political objectives of the terrorist organizations they join.

I publicly declare the kingdom good news with millions of other Jehovah's Witnesses and together we form a congregation to do Jehovah's will.

You publicly declare the teachings of the Watchtower Society who teaches that only by becoming one of Jehovah's Witnesses can you attain salvation which is in direct violation of the teachings of Christ.

Voice of Reason said...

Shawn said:
"'Voice of Reason said...
There is no baptism into the Watchtower Society. The WTS is not God's spirit directed organization. It is a printing company used by God's spirit directed organization. The spirit directed organization is all Jehovah's Witnesses who are organized to do Jehovah's will.'

Well, not according to the Watchtower Society...

*** w60 7/15 p. 444 par. 18
18 Lastly, we can stay awake by being respectful and obedient. We know that Jehovah is using the Watch Tower Society of the “faithful and discreet slave” as a governing agency on earth today. "

Did you ignore paragraph 1 where it said that the slave class operates through the legal servant, the WTBTS of PA.

But then that was 1960. I am interested in today.

And this applies to you:
" At times there are heard from immature ones slighting remarks, careless talk or outright criticism of the Society’s operations. Such is outright lack of respect for the means Jehovah is remarkably using to perform his will in this pre-Armageddon time. Truly the Society as directed by God’s holy spirit merits our deepest respect and wholehearted obedience."

"Notice that "Jehovah is using the Watch Tower Society of the “faithful and discreet slave” as a governing agency on earth today." The Watchtower Society is the governing agency, not you or any other individual JW."

You misread it. the WTS is the agency used by the FDS, the legal servant. The WTS can be abolished and Jehovah's Witnesses will still exist and still preach. The WTS is not necessary for God's will to be done anymore.

Shawn said...

Voice of Reason said...

Shawn said:
"'Voice of Reason said...
There is no baptism into the Watchtower Society. The WTS is not God's spirit directed organization. It is a printing company used by God's spirit directed organization. The spirit directed organization is all Jehovah's Witnesses who are organized to do Jehovah's will.'

Well, not according to the Watchtower Society...

*** w60 7/15 p. 444 par. 18
18 Lastly, we can stay awake by being respectful and obedient. We know that Jehovah is using the Watch Tower Society of the “faithful and discreet slave” as a governing agency on earth today. "

Did you ignore paragraph 1 where it said that the slave class operates through the legal servant, the WTBTS of PA.

But then that was 1960. I am interested in today.

And this applies to you:
" At times there are heard from immature ones slighting remarks, careless talk or outright criticism of the Society’s operations. Such is outright lack of respect for the means Jehovah is remarkably using to perform his will in this pre-Armageddon time. Truly the Society as directed by God’s holy spirit merits our deepest respect and wholehearted obedience."

That's just it! The Society can't possibly be the organization that Jehovah is using because they consistently issue false prophesies.

"Notice that "Jehovah is using the Watch Tower Society of the “faithful and discreet slave” as a governing agency on earth today." The Watchtower Society is the governing agency, not you or any other individual JW."

You misread it. the WTS is the agency used by the FDS, the legal servant. The WTS can be abolished and Jehovah's Witnesses will still exist and still preach. The WTS is not necessary for God's will to be done anymore.

Since you seemed to miss it last in my last post, here's a recent description of the organizational structure.

*** w98 3/15 pp. 18-19 par. 3 Living Up to Christian Dedication in Freedom ***

3 Someone may argue that the way the Witnesses speak about the Watch Tower Society—or more often just “the Society”—indicates that they view it as more than a legal instrument. Do they not consider it to be the final authority on matters of worship? The book Jehovah’s Witnesses—Proclaimers of God’s Kingdom clarifies this point by explaining: “When The Watchtower [June 1, 1938] referred to ‘The Society,’ this meant, not a mere legal instrumentality, but the body of anointed Christians that had formed that legal entity and used it.” The expression therefore stood for “the faithful and discreet slave.” (Matthew 24:45) It is in this sense that the Witnesses generally used the term “the Society.” Of course, the legal corporation and “the faithful and discreet slave” are not interchangeable terms. Directors of the Watch Tower Society are elected, whereas Witnesses who make up ‘the faithful slave’ are anointed by Jehovah’s holy spirit.

Notice that it says "“When The Watchtower [June 1, 1938] referred to ‘The Society,’ this meant, not a mere legal instrumentality, but the body of anointed Christians that had formed that legal entity and used it.”"

It is in this sense that I and others on this blog refer to the Watchtower Society and we have a precedent in the Watchtower Society's own publications.

steve said...

Very good, well thought out, well backed comments above.


'I publicly declare the kingdom good news with millions of other Jehovah's Witnesses and together we form a congregation to do Jehovah's will.'


That people are hearing the KINGDOM GOOD NEWS is a myth...Ask anyone on the street what they know about JWs and they will tell you that they dont have blood and dont celebrate birthdays and christmas...

And dont tell me to get out and preach it...you did that last time and it wasnt very intelligent...and I dont believe it anyway.

Voice of Reason said...

Shawn said:
"That's just it! The Society can't possibly be the organization that Jehovah is using because they consistently issue false prophesies."

Then don't go by the Watchtower Society, go by what Jehovah's Witnesses teach.


"It is in this sense that I and others on this blog refer to the Watchtower Society and we have a precedent in the Watchtower Society's own publications."

Well, La de da.

No one cares.

Voice of Reason said...

"Using the New World Translation is not independent of the Watchtower Society. Take a look at how distorted this 'translation' actually is."

How about the Greek text and many other Bible translations? Oh, you are stuck now. You can only trash the NWT but you are so limited in your closed mindedness that you you can't deal with things outside of the NWT.

"Again, independent study only parallels the Watchtower Society's doctrine if you're using their doctored bible."

And I was not doing was I?

Voice of Reason said...

Steve said:
"That people are hearing the KINGDOM GOOD NEWS is a myth...Ask anyone on the street what they know about JWs and they will tell you that they dont have blood and dont celebrate birthdays and christmas..."

Well go out and preach it.

"And dont tell me to get out and preach it...you did that last time and it wasnt very intelligent...and I dont believe it anyway. "

Jesus is the one that said so. All authority was given him and he said to make disciples.

Shawn said...

Voice of Reason said...

Shawn said:
"That's just it! The Society can't possibly be the organization that Jehovah is using because they consistently issue false prophesies."

Then don't go by the Watchtower Society, go by what Jehovah's Witnesses teach.

[putting aside, for the moment, your stupid semantics of JWs and legal entities] Well, since JWs taught that the end of the system would arrive before the end of the 20th century, I could not promote 'what Jehovah's Witnesses' teach either.

"It is in this sense that I and others on this blog refer to the Watchtower Society and we have a precedent in the Watchtower Society's own publications."

Well, La de da.

No one cares.

You seem to care because you make this dumb assertion that Jehovah's Witnesses do not teach what the Watchtower Society tells them to on almost every blog post.

Shawn said...

Voice of Reason said...

"Using the New World Translation is not independent of the Watchtower Society. Take a look at how distorted this 'translation' actually is."

How about the Greek text and many other Bible translations? Oh, you are stuck now. You can only trash the NWT but you are so limited in your closed mindedness that you you can't deal with things outside of the NWT.

If insisting on using the oldest best texts for a translation of the Holy Scriptures is 'closed minded', then I'll have to say that I am when it comes to the liberties take by the 'translation committee' who didn't even have one person who could actually... translate!

Since you seem to like Greek texts so much, let's talk about them. As it turns out, there are no Greek texts that use the tetragrammaton. There is no evidence that the divine name was removed from the Christian Greek scriptures. The Watchtower Society justifies adding the divine name to its English translation by saying that when translators translated Greek scripture that quoted Hebrew scripture, they used the tetragrammaton where the scripture quoted used the tetragrammaton.

*** Rbi8 p. 1564 1D The Divine Name in the Christian Greek Scriptures ***

Sometime during the second or third century C.E. the scribes removed the Tetragrammaton from both the Septuagint and the Christian Greek Scriptures and replaced it with Ky′ri‧os, “Lord” or The‧os′, “God.”

The truth is that there is no evidence that some apostate movement in the 2nd century intentionally removed the divine name from the Greek scriptures. The controversies at the time had nothing to do with whether the divine name should be used. There were four main schools of thought at the time.

There were the 'adoptionists', who thought that Jesus was entirely human, not born of a virgin, who God adopted as his son at baptism.

There were the Docetists, who believed that Jesus was entirly divine, only appearing to be in the flesh on earth.

There were the separationists who believed that Jesus was a human who was also inhabited by the divine Christ that joined Jesus at baptism and separated from him at his execution.

Then there were those that held to what we think of as 'orthodox' Christianity... who eventually acquired enough believers to reduce the other schools of thought to static.

There were fierce debates about the nature of Jesus, but apparently no arguments over the use of the divine name. We have evidence of the disagreements of the time, which is why we know about these other 'Christian' teachings. It would follow that if there were some debate over the use of the divine name that we would see some kind of evidence that the debate existed. I would also expect that if the Watchtower Society had evidence of this anti-divine name debate, they would let the rest of us know about it.

Doctrinal Influence

There also appears to be the influence of existing Watchtower Society doctrine in the New World Translation. Take a look at John 17:3 from several translations.

And this is eternal life, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom Thou hast sent. (John 17:3, NASB)


Now this is eternal life, that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. (John 17:3, NIV)


But this is the everlasting life in order that they may be knowing you the only true God and Jesus Christ whom you sent forth. (John 17:3, The Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures)

And this is the age-lasting life, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent. (John 17:3, The Emphatic Diaglott)


This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ. (John 17:3, The New World Translation)

The NWT says something very different from the others. The other translations say that everlasting life comes through knowing the true God and Jesus Christ. The NWT however, says that learning about God and Christ is how everlasting life is gained. The Watchtower Society uses John 17:3 to emphasize studying their publications instead of what the scripture is actually about, a Christian's personal relationship with God and Christ.

* "Fred Franz however, was the only one with sufficient knowledge of the Bible languages to attempt translation of this kind. He had studied Greek for two years in the University of Cincinnati but was only self-taught in Hebrew." ["Crisis of Conscience"; by Raymond Franz; Commentary Press, Atlanta; 1983 edition; footnote 15; page 50.]

However, in 1954 the Watchtower Society was on trial in Scotland in order to prove that Jehovah's Witnesses were a genuine religion whose members could be exempt from military service, Franz was put to the test regarding his abilities as a translator. I have the scan of the entire transcript of this trial if anyone is interested.

Tuesday, 23rd November, 1954:
Frederick William Franz, Examined:

Q. Have you also made yourself familiar with Hebrew?
A. Yes....
Q. So that you have a substantial linguistic apparatus at your command?
A. Yes, for use in my biblical work.
Q. I think you are able to read and follow the Bible in Hebrew, Greek, Latin, Spanish, Portuguese, German, and French?
A. Yes.
Q. It is the case, is it not, that in 1950 there was prepared and issued what is called the New World Translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures?
A. Yes....
Q. I think that it was your duty, was it not, before the issue of that New World Translation by your Society to check that translation for accuracy?
A. That is true.
Q. In light of your studies and in light of your knowledge?
A. That is true.
Q. And did you do so?
A. I did so....
Q. And was it your duty on behalf of the Society to check the translation into English from the original Hebrew of that first volume of the Old Testament Scriptures?
A. Yes....
Q. In so far as translation of the Bible itself is undertaken, are you responsible for that?
A. I have been authorised to examine a translation and determine its accuracy and recommend its acceptance in the form in which it is submitted.
Q. Are the translators members of the Editorial Committee?
A. That is a question which I, as a member of the Board of Directors, am not authorised to disclose....
Q. When did you go to the University?....
Q. Did you graduate?
A. No, I did not....
Q. Had you done any Hebrew in the course of your University work?
A. No, I had not, but in the course of my editorial work, my special research work for the president of the Society, I found it was very necessary to have knowledge of Hebrew, and so I undertook a personal study of that.

ADJOURNED

Wednesday, 24th November, 1954:
Frederick William Franz, Cross Continued:

Q. You, yourself, read and speak Hebrew, do you?
A. I do not speak Hebrew.
Q. You do not?
A. No.
Q. Can you, yourself, translate that into Hebrew?
A. Which?
Q. That fourth verse of the Second Chapter of Genesis?
A. You mean here?
Q. Yes?
A. No, I won’t attempt to do that.


— Douglas Walsh Trial, Pursuer’s Proof, 1954, pp. 7-9, 88, 91-92, 102-103

What Franz "wouldn't attempt" to translate into Hebrew is what many have said as a simple exercise an average first or second-year Hebrew student in seminary would be able to do even though he testified that he had 'a substantial linguistic apparatus at his command' and that he could "read and follow the Bible in Hebrew". Franz could neither speak Hebrew nor translate the English to Hebrew. The President of the Watchtower allowed Jehovah's Witnesses to believe he is a Bible scholar having an education in Biblical languages. The facts show otherwise. He is not a scholar.

What about the others on the translation committee? Here's a rundown of their credentials.

Nathan H. Knorr: No training in biblical languages. Entered Brooklyn headquarters in 1923; 3rd president of WTS from 1942 to 1977.

Milton G. Henschel: No training in biblical languages. Private secretary and traveling companion to N. H. Knorr from late 1940s until early 1970s. 4th president of WTS from 1992 to 2000.

Albert D. Schroeder: No training in biblical languages. Took 3 years of mechanical engineering, unspecified language courses in college, dropped out in 1932 and soon entered Brooklyn headquarters. Registrar of "Gilead School" from 1942 to 1959.

George D. Gangas: No training in biblical languages. Greek-speaking Turkish national, entered Brooklyn headquarters in 1928 as a Greek translator from English to modern Greek (as opposed to the Greek of the first century) publications.

So that's it. The only one who claimed any ability to translate the scriptures from their original languages, Franz, couldn't do it when cross examined. The rest of the men on the translation committee were completely unqualified for the task. If the Watchtower Society really believed that "IT IS a very responsible thing to translate the Holy Scriptures from their original languages of Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek into modern speech", then why didn't they staff the translation committee with people who could actually do the job?

So yeah, I guess I am stuck. I'm stuck wondering why an organization that claims to be 'God's visible organization' be so dishonest in hobbling together a version of the bible that prefers to support their doctrines over accurately rendering the text?


"Again, independent study only parallels the Watchtower Society's doctrine if you're using their doctored bible."

And I was not doing was I?

Umm... whatever you were doing wasn't in English, that's for sure.

Steve said...

'Jesus is the one that said so. All authority was given him and he said to make disciples.'

Well la de da.

Jesus said so. So what? What makes you think I give a fig about what someone said in a 2000 year old book?

Truth be Known said...

Voice of Reason (alias Ronde) said, "As Shatner so well put it in SNL "GET A LIFE, will you people?"

Once again Ronde quotes from a worldly person (appearing on a questionable TV program for true Christians) to close an argument.

Hmmm... Ronde, you are just not right.

What did you get DF'd for? (You always avoid the truthful answer to this... funny how I know this, isn't it?)

Voice of Reason said...

"(appearing on a questionable TV program for true Christians) "

If I watch it, it is proper for Christians.

Voice of Reason said...

This whole blog is a joke, so how can we respond other than with a joke.

Shawn said...

‪Voice of Reason‬ said..."(appearing on a questionable TV program for true Christians) "If I watch it, it is proper for Christians

President Nixon said:

If the President does it, it's not illegal.

Hmmm. There's a striking similarity in those two statements.

Voice of Reason said...

"President Nixon said:
If the President does it, it's not illegal."

I agree.

what is the point of being the president if one has to be limited as others are?

Anonymous said...

http://www.jwfacts.com/

Anonymous said...

Ronde is DF'd!

Funny how someone who has been DF'd feels the need to fill this web-blog with ridiculous arguments.

Perhaps he thinks of it as a form of penance.

Mind-off = Ronde.