I know this mentality has been going on forever. Back in the 70s and 80s my dad was totally disabled with a heart condition. He could hardly walk to the bathroom without getting chest pain and short of breath. They hounded him til the day he died to go in service.
Mow my father in law. same thing, he has been suffering a broken neck and heart disease for decades. He cannot attend meetings or go door to door. Imagine this: His Star pioneer wife screams at him and calls him a pharisee for not going.
Amazing closed mindedness and ignorance of the human condition coming straight from the wt into the minds of idiots.
It is called subliminal messaging. The paragraphs Theocratic Joker has placed up for our viewing, shows how the organization behind Jehovah’s Witnesses is very cautious and crafty on how it phrases taking care of one’s health, but the more important things need to come first. What would those ‘more important things consist of? Well, the paragraphs go on to relate it is basically Field Service (“An active share in the work of spiritual healing”). A person who is feeling sick or depressed then comes across this information along with “This joyful activity benefits us” as if going out in field service will definitely help aliments people are dealing with day to day.
While stating, “Our attitude should differ from that of those who have “no hope””, it plants in the mind of the faithful member of JW’s that if they're thinking about their sickness too much or too often they’re just like so-called ”worldly people” and it makes them a part of Satan’s system. The fact of the matter is most people will worry and will be concerned (Perhaps even very concerned of their health). They should not have the extra burden of worrying they’re like those with “no hope”.
The writer then presents what can seem to the reader as the solution of being like those with “no hope”…field service.
The truth is those people need rest and to take care of themselves first. If the sickness is mental and/or emotional they need psychiatric help as well. Field Service is not going to fix or help those problems. Granted, some individuals may be hypochondriacs and for those they do need to fix their mind on other things which may include helping people. However, for the majority who are sick, Field Service is not the answer contrary to the opinion and support of the organization behind Jehovah’s Witnesses.
The kicker is the “hope” the Watchtower is using as taking selectively from the scriptures does not speak about a Paradise Earth (Paradise Earth is not even in the Bible). Notice how they site verse 2 and 12. What about all the other verses the chapter? Like verse 6 for example:
“and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,“
There is no mention of a Paradise Earth or perfect health on Earth that the organization behind Jehovah’s Witnesses is leading readers to believe. Rather it is the hope of being resurrected to be together with Christ. For Jehovah’s Witnesses it is only for a select 144,000; according to the organization behind Jehovah’s Witnesses’ interpretation and teachings of scripture. For Chrisitans it includes many others.
As a last side point, verse 16 also states:
“and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.”
Don’t expect that to be in the New World Translation Bible as put forth by the organization behind Jehovah's Witnesses. They probably again placed the word 'stake' there as the Reasoning from the Scriptures publications from the Organization behind Jehovah’s Witnesses claims the original Greek word “Stauros” cannot mean cross. Which is wrong, as Stauros was being used to signify a cross for at least 100 years prior to the time of Jesus. That is a whole other ball of wax though, which I encourage everyone to do their research and not to take my word and certainly not the word of an organization. Do the research!
i dont agree with on that fully. it maybe interpreted that way, but its in my eyes foremost to keep witnesses from getting too much into alternative medicine or similar. its a plague within the witnesses, since they believe easily whatever they are taught and that means that they go crazy with medicin stuff rather that study and increase the indoctrination.
Voice of Reason said...No, it is not required for everlasting life, but an attitude more humble than yours is.
Practice what you preach. You judge people, hate them and condemn them to death based on your opinion and interpretation of scriptures. Your comments stink of haughtiness.
That Watchtower article is certainly awful to people who are suffering. Could you imagine Jesus saying such things to people who are sick? Thank God I look to my exemplier Christ for strength and support and not the Watchtower.
Your credibility is slightly less than zero. How can we trust you? You continually falsify what JWs believe. Don't try to bullshit a bullshitter. You should know this by now.
When I had a breakdown, I was told the remedy was to pray more, study more, go to all the meetings and go in filed service. I did all those things. It didnt work. I was then told it was me that was at fault because Jehovah's direction always works.
I could not pray...I felt completely down and unworthy. I could not read a page of a book of any sort, never mind study. I struggled through the meetings and the last thing I wanted to do was go and tell people about the new system when I felt so crap.
I sometimes went to the doors and came away without knocking after having an internal struggle with myself.
The problem with the JWs is, and most other religions too, they havent got a Plan B. If prayer and the other stuff doesnt work, then its your fault and youre on your own. So much for the loving care that is supposed to identify true Christians.
The leaders of the JW religion are 'Symptom Warriers'. They are obsessed with works and things that are measurable. Spontaneous works, propelled by love of God and neighbor are foreign to them.
They brag about their Spiritual Routine. Serving God is a regimented requirement. It does not spring from a heart filled with appreciation and love. It springs from fear of displeasing a tyrant God and his human caretakers.
Annon; "so I think the article is about to balance your view and mind when you are sick with serious illness"
Wow. That's a word you will almost NEVER hear from the Watchtower. Balance? Did they even mention the word in the article? Why couln't they just said that from the beggining?
Our circuit overseer said he once knew an elderly woman who had a broken arms/legs/limbs....oh....but she could still move her mouth and that did not stop her from preaching thru a mirror! So whats our excuse? (oh the guilt trip.....as long as you can fricking move your mouth....you better be using it till the last minute..lol). Oh and the elderly sister died. They did not say if any brothers went to go vist her....oh wait they did, but only the secretary to collect her 'time'....how loving.
VOR (alias Ronde) replied in part: "Ronde didn't write that, I did. I am not Ronde."
Okay, if you've never been a JW, you would wonder how someone who professes to be Christian could tell a lie.
Well, JW's leaders have a teaching called Theocratic Warfare - in short what this means is if you lie for Theocratice reasons, it's okay.
So, I want to thank you Ronde for helping all non-JW's reading this web-blog to see Theocratice Warfare with their own eyes and how people like yourself use it to excuse their obvious lies.
VOR (who lies that he's not Ronde) said: "What would you all know about the JW religion or the leaders?"
I'll leave that to the non-JW's to decide whether all of us ex's know anything about the JW religion and its leaders.
Fact is, we are their only hope should they someday want to see what is wrong with this religion because WE HAVE LIVED IT - many of us previously as faithful and loyal as any other JW.
People like VOR (alias Ronde) would say anything - even lie - in order to cover up the serious sins of this religion (i.e. policies that protected pedophilia, false prophecies, membership with the Wild Beast in the form of NGO support, etc. etc. etc.).
VOR (alias Ronde) replied, "IT is right in that people are too focused on their health."
This coming from someone who has quoted lines from the movie Rocky. Ronde has quoted them in response to how he lives his life!
That's why Ronde disappeared and reappeared as Voice of Reason, because he developed such a bad reputation as a JW on this web-blog (I also believe he's using Anonymous and other alias as well).
So, Ronde, if you aren't taking exercise too serious, you need to stop playing those Rocky theme songs when you exercise - get out in service and stop visiting sites that expose your religion!
Then again, you may find these indisputable sites helpful in finding the real truth about JWs:
anon said: Wow. That's a word you will almost NEVER hear from the Watchtower. Balance? Did they even mention the word in the article? Why couln't they just said that from the beggining?
My Response: How do you so sure you never hear the word "Balance" from the WT. And yes that word didn't appear in this particular page, but also the word "Suck it up". That's why I said earlier that it is an interpretation (that in my opinion is not right so I didn't agree).
Another things is GBL didn't present the rest of the article (before and after this page), so the information is limited. If we have the complete article, maybe much of the debate about this topic here will not be neccesary.
"Our circuit overseer said he once knew an elderly woman who had a broken arms/legs/limbs....oh....but she could still move her mouth and that did not stop her from preaching thru a mirror! So whats our excuse? (oh the guilt trip.....as long as you can fricking move your mouth....you better be using it till the last minute..lol). Oh and the elderly sister died. They did not say if any brothers went to go vist her....oh wait they did, but only the secretary to collect her 'time'....how loving."
Then why don't you set the example rather than coming on here and complaining? I don't complain, I set the proper example.
"to cover up the serious sins of this religion (i.e. policies that protected pedophilia, false prophecies, membership with the Wild Beast in the form of NGO support, etc. etc. etc.)."
Sorry to tell you but those are not sins of my religion.
My religion protected no pedophiles, was not with the UN, etc.
If you claim the Watchtower did that but the watchotwer is not my religion. Jehovah's Witnesses is.
Voice of Reason said... Then why don't you set the example.
I have set the example as MANY others. By leaving the religion known as Jehovah's Witnesses who are provided doctrine and teachings by a bunch of men who appoint themselves as a Faithful and Discreet Slave Class/Governing Body Members [which doesn't exist in the Bible], and in turn dispense their thoughts through various publications; primarily the Watchtower.
I set the example in leaving and encouraging all my friends and family and anyone to follow Christ and not an organization. A religion can be part of your worship to God, it should not be the focus. The Organization puts themselves as deserving the same loyality and devotion as one should give to The Son, The Father and The Holy Spirit.
Whether you choose to follow it, believe it, go against it, or deny it, the organization as can be inclusive but not exclusive to be represented by the terms...
Faithful and Discreet Slace Class of Jehovah's Witnesses
The Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses
The (Watchtower) Society
The Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses
The Watchtower Bible Tract Society
...drills into the minds of its followers through their publications and talks, assemblies and conventions, that they are to be obeyed and followed as loyally as one would be to Christ. They teach loyality to the organization is key to salvation. That is a lie. That is not Chrisitan.
Christ ALONE is The Way, The Truth, The Light:
John 14:6 (New King James Version) "Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."
Just like a politician, so many here just love to take things out of context. "
Ok, let's talk about taking things out of context. First of all LGB is posting whole pages of the Watchtower. The reader is free to look at the quotes in context.
*** Rbi8 p. 1564 1D The Divine Name in the Christian Greek Scriptures ***
Concerning the use of the Tetragrammaton in the Christian Greek Scriptures, George Howard of the University of Georgia wrote in Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 96, 1977, p. 63: “Recent discoveries in Egypt and the Judean Desert allow us to see first hand the use of God’s name in pre-Christian times. These discoveries are significant for N[ew] T[estament] studies in that they form a literary analogy with the earliest Christian documents and may explain how NT authors used the divine name. In the following pages we will set forth a theory that the divine name,( יהוה and possibly abbreviations of it), was originally written in the NT quotations of and allusions to the O[ld] T[estament] and that in the course of time it was replaced mainly with the surrogate ? [abbreviation for Ky′ri‧os, “Lord”]. This removal of the Tetragram[maton], in our view, created a confusion in the minds of early Gentile Christians about the relationship between the ‘Lord God’ and the ‘Lord Christ’ which is reflected in the MS tradition of the NT text itself.”
We concur with the above, with this exception: We do not consider this view a “theory,” rather, a presentation of the facts of history as to the transmission of Bible manuscripts.
The translation committee did not consider George Howard's views as theory, but George Howard did. In the article The "NEW WORLD TRANSLATION"— Scholarly and Honest? by B J Kotwall (Investigator 19, 1991 July), George Howard responded to the Watchtower Society's claims.
The University of Georgia January 9, 1990
Steven Butt P.O. _____ Portland, ME 04104
Dear Mr. Butt:
Thank you for your letter of 3 January 1990. I have been distressed for sometime about the use the Jehovah’s Witnesses are making of my publications. My research does not support their denial of the deity of Christ. What I tried to show was that there is evidence that the Septuagint Bibles used by the writers of the New Testament contained the Hebrew Tetragrammaton. I argued that it is reasonable to assume that the NT writers, when quoting from the Septuagint, retained the Tetragrammaton in the quotations. This does not support the JW’s insertion of "Jehovah" in every place they want. To do this is to remove the NT from its original "theological climate." My opinion of the New World Translation (based on limited exposure) is that it is odd. I suspect that it is a Translation designed to support JW theology. Finally, my theory about the Tetragrammaton is just that, a theory. Some of my colleagues disagree with me (for example Albert Pietersma). Theories like mine are important to be set forth so that others can investigate their probability and implications. Until they are proven (and mine has not been proven) they should not be used as a surety for belief.
Sincerely, George Howard
Going further, the Watchtower Society's New World Translation (NWT) committee was not consistent in its 'restoration' of the divine name to the Greek scriptures. The NWT appendix states that haAdohn is a title limited exclusively to Jehovah God and that Adoni refers to Jesus as My Lord. They mostly followed this rule, breaking it when Jesus is referred to as Jehovah.
So when the Watchtower Society discontinues its intellectually dishonest practices of misquoting scholars to support their doctrine, then maybe you can point the finger of blame at others.
Anon...Another things is GBL didn't present the rest of the article (before and after this page), so the information is limited.
You mean like the Watchtower does in its publications such as Reasoning From the Scriptures, where it partially quotes and takes text sources out of context?
"Some like to pick and choose what to follow in the JW religion. Much like yourself and Voice of Reason. "
No, it is not picking and choosing, it is realizing that we are individuals but the Watchtower is written for 10 million and it is not written for us individually so we have to discern what fits with our lives.
"I have set the example as MANY others. By leaving the religion known as Jehovah's Witnesses who are provided doctrine and teachings by a bunch of men who appoint themselves as a Faithful and Discreet Slave Class/Governing Body Members"
That is the wrong example.
The doctrine and teachings are true to the best we can know today. Those who are in other religions do not have any truth.
But JWs do not worry about and focus on (or should not be) the governing body and FDS. I set that proper example.
"You mean like the Watchtower does in its publications such as Reasoning From the Scriptures, where it partially quotes and takes text sources out of context?"
If that is the case then why can't you prove it? Or do you just put forth hot air?
Voice of Reason...The doctrine and teachings are true to the best we can know today. Those who are in other religions do not have any truth.
Circular logic. And no proof or facts. Your claim of truth is your opinion.
The doctrine and teachings of my XYZ religion are true to the best we can know today. Those who are in other religions outside of my XYZ religion do not have any truth.
Voice Of Reason...the Watchtower is written for 10 million and it is not written for us individually so we have to discern what fits with our lives.
Wow, you come up with new teachings everytime - Don't you?
Who ever stated the Watchtower is written for (only) 10 million? There are 7 million JW, and 7 billion people on the earth. Who make up the 10 million?
Voice of reason...Says what? The teachings are for the general populous, not for every individual equally.
You need to start your own religion. That certainly is not the teachings of JWs. You are excusing what counsel and information is applicable to you. You judge people. Claim you hate people. You make claims you have truth because you say so. Yet, you say you have God. Start a cult. JW is not cult-like enought for you.
Voice of Reason...If that is the case then why can't you prove it? Or do you just put forth hot air?
No need to prove anything to anyone. No hot air here. People need to do the research and thinking for themselves. When I did that's when I discovered it. However, feel free to continue on with the rules and teachings you believe you want to apply from JWs. Call yourself a JW, or whatever you believe yourself to be. Your really a sick individual that needs help. I pity you.
"Wow, you come up with new teachings everytime - Don't you? Who ever stated the Watchtower is written for (only) 10 million? There are 7 million JW, and 7 billion people on the earth. Who make up the 10 million? "
There are about 10 million that attend the meetings for the study articles and 35 million for the public articles. But that was just a general figure. Your ignorance is showing by your focusing on that.
"Some like to pick and choose what to follow in the JW religion. Much like yourself and Voice of Reason. "
No, it is not picking and choosing, it is realizing that we are individuals but the Watchtower is written for 10 million and it is not written for us individually so we have to discern what fits with our lives."
================================
Let's see what the Watchtower Society has to say about your views, shall we?
*** w06 11/1 pp. 22-23 pars. 1-7 Do You Share Jehovah’s View of Sacred Things? ***
THE world in general pays less and less attention to sacred things. French sociologist Edgar Morin stated: “All the foundations upon which morals are based—God, nature, homeland, history, reason—have lost their unquestionable nature. . . . People pick and choose their values.” This reflects “the spirit of the world,” or “the spirit that now operates in the sons of disobedience.” (1 Corinthians 2:12; Ephesians 2:2) That irreverent spirit is not shared by those who have dedicated themselves to Jehovah and who willingly submit to his rightful sovereignty. (Romans 12:1, 2) ...
7 Submission to Christ also involves our showing proper respect for the men used by him to take the lead in the work he is now directing. The role of the spirit-anointed ones who make up the Governing Body and of the overseers appointed by them in the branches, districts, circuits, and congregations should be recognized as a sacred responsibility. This arrangement therefore commands our deep respect and submission.—Hebrews 13:7, 17. ***
*** w91 3/15 p. 16 par. 14 Keep Pace With Jehovah’s Celestial Chariot ***
14 To that end, we need a good routine of personal prayer, private study, and participation in the holy ministry of the good news. (Romans 15:16) Recall Ezekiel’s example in eating the roll containing God’s message. Ezekiel consumed the entire roll, not part of it. He did not pick and choose morsels that might have been more to his personal taste. Similarly, our personal study of the Bible and Christian publications should be regulated to keep pace with the flow of spiritual food, and we should partake of all that is put on the spiritual table ***
*** w84 6/1 p. 31 Insight on the News ***
The report, says one church historian, shows a “‘pick-and-choose’ Christianity” where individual members select or reject beliefs according to their own spiritual goals. In fact, two thirds of those surveyed “saw no harm in rejecting some of their church’s doctrines.” Said one woman: “I feel that in religious training, as in any other thing, you are taught the basics. From those basics, you sort out what you want or pick it apart as you see fit.”
However, the apostle Paul, under inspiration, wrote that this was not to be the case with true Christians when he said: “Now I exhort you, brothers, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ that you should all speak in agreement, and that there should not be divisions among you, but that you may be fitly united in the same mind and in the same line of thought.”—1 Corinthians 1:10. ***
*** w67 10/1 pp. 585-586 Finding Freedom with Jehovah’s Visible Organization ***
ORGANIZATION IS THE ORDER OF THE UNIVERSE
4 Do not these promises of God give concrete reality to his kingdom? They mean that God will make his kingdom under Christ just as real in governmental functions as the governments of men now ruling. God’s promises mean, too, that provision must be made to administer that kingdom and see that its laws are properly enforced. The prophet Jeremiah foretold this as the purpose of Jehovah, who says: “I will raise up over them shepherds who will actually shepherd them; and they will be afraid no more.” (Jer. 23:4) Isaiah testified as to the benefits of this arrangement: “Look! A king will reign for righteousness itself; and as respects princes, they will rule as princes for justice itself.” (Isa. 32:1) But this prophecy of Isaiah reveals something further, namely, that this administration of God’s righteousness will begin even before God removes the governments of this system of things. For the prophecy continues: “And each one must prove to be like a hiding place from the wind and a place of concealment from the rainstorm, like streams of water in a waterless country, like the shadow of a heavy crag in an exhausted land.” (Isa. 32:2) All this emphasizes a well-ordered arrangement of persons, a concerted, united effort to accomplish a purpose. That means organization.
5 To some persons, though, one’s conforming to the rules or regulations of an organization is stifling to one’s individuality. Others, reasoning similarly, say that God is dealing with them personally, directing each one in an understanding of the Bible. However, the spiritual laws of God are just as necessary to our well-being as natural laws; and who among the individualists would refuse to conform to God’s law of eating and drinking, for example, for fear of losing his individuality? Men can go on hunger strikes in protest against social or political evils, but they do not escape the need for food. Furthermore, these physical needs and the laws that govern them are common to all men. We are not free to pick and choose according to our individual whims.
6 Why, then, is it reasonable to believe that spiritual laws do not apply with the same uniformity to all? In fact, it is more important for God’s living, intelligent Creatures to have law, order and organization than it is for the inanimate, nonsoulical or soulless bodies of nature. Plants grow and stars move in orbit with no free will choice. God’s laws of nature control them and they cannot resist. As a result, the universe of such bodies is orderly and harmonious throughout. But man is a freewill agent and can, if he so desires, exercise his choice of action in an indiscriminate way. If all men were to do so, however, only a state of anarchy would result. So, to say that we do not need organization or that God directs each individual independently is to deny the interdependent order of the universe and the common provision that Jehovah has made for the sustenance of our physical needs. In fact, our very possession of free will should emphasize to us the need for organization, theocratic organization, that is, ruled by God from the top down. ***
Opps, wrong again Voice of Reason! Apparently you are not free "to discern what fits with our lives." That attitude exhibits "the spirit of the world".
"You need to start your own religion. That certainly is not the teachings of JWs. You are excusing what counsel and information is applicable to you."
How would you know what the teachings of JWs are since you just focus on what is written? There is much more to it than that?"
=================================
Sorry, wrong again. There are more facets of the Watchtower Society's organization that just what is written, but that doesn't mean that what is written doesn't matter or is somehow overridden by these other facets from the point of view of Jehovah's Witnesses. The materials produced by the faithful and discreet slave are the primary means by which Jehovah's Witnesses receive their beliefs.
"You mean like the Watchtower does in its publications such as Reasoning From the Scriptures, where it partially quotes and takes text sources out of context?"
If that is the case then why can't you prove it? Or do you just put forth hot air?"
==================================
First of all, I snicker when I read your pseudo-biblesque phrases like 'put forth hot air'. I'm guessing you think this makes you sound scholarly, but it really just makes you sound like an idiot... especially when it's paired with the content of your message.
If you'd like to see a fluorescent example of the Watchtower Society taking text sources out of context, open your copy of the New World Translation, one of the most intellectually dishonest versions of the Bible available.
*** Rbi8 p. 1564 1D The Divine Name in the Christian Greek Scriptures ***
Concerning the use of the Tetragrammaton in the Christian Greek Scriptures, George Howard of the University of Georgia wrote in Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 96, 1977, p. 63: “Recent discoveries in Egypt and the Judean Desert allow us to see first hand the use of God’s name in pre-Christian times. These discoveries are significant for N[ew] T[estament] studies in that they form a literary analogy with the earliest Christian documents and may explain how NT authors used the divine name. In the following pages we will set forth a theory that the divine name,( יהוה and possibly abbreviations of it), was originally written in the NT quotations of and allusions to the O[ld] T[estament] and that in the course of time it was replaced mainly with the surrogate ? [abbreviation for Ky′ri‧os, “Lord”]. This removal of the Tetragram[maton], in our view, created a confusion in the minds of early Gentile Christians about the relationship between the ‘Lord God’ and the ‘Lord Christ’ which is reflected in the MS tradition of the NT text itself.”
We concur with the above, with this exception: We do not consider this view a “theory,” rather, a presentation of the facts of history as to the transmission of Bible manuscripts.
The translation committee did not consider George Howard's views as theory, but George Howard did. In the article The "NEW WORLD TRANSLATION"— Scholarly and Honest? by B J Kotwall (Investigator 19, 1991 July), George Howard responded to the Watchtower Society's claims.
The University of Georgia January 9, 1990
Steven Butt P.O. _____ Portland, ME 04104
Dear Mr. Butt:
Thank you for your letter of 3 January 1990. I have been distressed for sometime about the use the Jehovah’s Witnesses are making of my publications. My research does not support their denial of the deity of Christ. What I tried to show was that there is evidence that the Septuagint Bibles used by the writers of the New Testament contained the Hebrew Tetragrammaton. I argued that it is reasonable to assume that the NT writers, when quoting from the Septuagint, retained the Tetragrammaton in the quotations. This does not support the JW’s insertion of "Jehovah" in every place they want. To do this is to remove the NT from its original "theological climate." My opinion of the New World Translation (based on limited exposure) is that it is odd. I suspect that it is a Translation designed to support JW theology. Finally, my theory about the Tetragrammaton is just that, a theory. Some of my colleagues disagree with me (for example Albert Pietersma). Theories like mine are important to be set forth so that others can investigate their probability and implications. Until they are proven (and mine has not been proven) they should not be used as a surety for belief.
Sincerely, George Howard
Going further, the Watchtower Society's New World Translation (NWT) committee was not consistent in its 'restoration' of the divine name to the Greek scriptures. The NWT appendix states that haAdohn is a title limited exclusively to Jehovah God and that Adoni refers to Jesus as My Lord. They mostly followed this rule, breaking it when Jesus is referred to as Jehovah.
I also love how you demand examples and proof from all of us while you pull your own version of JW doctrine out of thin air. Your arguments are so easily disproven it's laughable, but I'm sure you're a legend in your own mind.
"Opps, wrong again Voice of Reason! Apparently you are not free "to discern what fits with our lives." That attitude exhibits "the spirit of the world"."
Since Jesus did not micromanage the lives of his followers, the ones who call him Lord, whatever makes you think that the governing body micromanages the lives of their brothers?
Shawn, you ought to put the CD away and learn that being one of Jehovah's Witnesses is not about quotes from the Watchtower, it is about a heart that is serving Jehovah.
Voice of Reason...Shawn, you ought to put the CD away and learn that being one of Jehovah's Witnesses is not about quotes from the Watchtower, it is about a heart that is serving Jehovah.
VoR, you should stop living in a facade of thinking your serving Jehovah when you pick and choose what to follow and apply from the spiritual food provided to you through the Watchtower.
As to Jehovah's name in the Christian Greek scriptures.
Matt 4:10 "Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. American Standard Version"
It is written? Where Deut 6:13.
"Thou shalt fear Jehovah thy God; and him shalt thou serve, and shalt swear by his name. American Standard Version 1901 Info"
If Jesus said it is written, then he would have quoted it as it was written, with is Father's name.
What this professor says or theorizes does not change it.
Like I said, don't worry about what the Watchtower printed in what book. Use the Bible.
Voice of Reason...Since Jesus did not micromanage the lives of his followers, the ones who call him Lord, whatever makes you think that the governing body micromanages the lives of their brothers?
You're right Jesus did not micromanage to lives of Christians. However, the governing body certainly likes to try to. People like yourself prove they will ultimately fail with some individuals, since simple counsel and direction concerning not even viewing apostate (As defined by the Watchtower) sites you choose to ignore.
"The materials produced by the faithful and discreet slave are the primary means by which Jehovah's Witnesses receive their beliefs. "
Except there is nothing marked "Written by the FDS"
Provisions by Jehovah are all equal.
What matters is not who writes what but what we do with what Jehovah gives us."
=================================
Here's why the Watchtower Society doesn't list the authors and editors of their publications.
*** jv chap. 10 pp. 142-146 Growing in Accurate Knowledge of the Truth *** It was to Jehovah as their Grand Instructor that readers of the Watch Tower were encouraged to look, even as all of Jehovah’s Witnesses are today. (Isa. 30:20) This was strongly emphasized in The Watchtower of November 1, 1931, in the article “Taught of God,” which stated: “The Watchtower recognizes the truth as belonging to Jehovah, and not to any creature. The Watchtower is not the instrument of any man or set of men, nor is it published according to the whims of men. . . . Jehovah God is the great Teacher of his children. To be sure, the publication of these truths is put forth by imperfect men, and for this reason they are not absolutely perfect in form; but they are put forth in such form as reflects God’s truth that he teaches his children.” ***
In 1931, when Jehovah's Witnesses saw many other policy changes, the Watchtower Society stopped listing the writers and editors because, in their words "all credit is given to Jehovah God". At first glace this may not sound bad at all. After all, they are trying to give glory to God, right? Not necessarily. If someone were to vandalize a bunch of cars and then 'give you the credit' for it, you probably wouldn't be too happy. By not crediting the human writers for the articles that are written, the Watchtower Society is saying "Watchtower is not the instrument of any man or set of men, nor is it published according to the whims of men". In other words, the information in the Watchtower society's publications comes from God. True, they admit that the publications are written by imperfect men, but are "put forth in such form as reflects God’s truth that he teaches his children.” The emphasis is on the claim that the Watchtower publications are 'God's truth'. It's a subtle shift from declaring the good news to actually writing it and in effect, assuming divine authority.
Voice of Reason said... Shawn, you are all smoke and mirrors. As to Jehovah's name in the Christian Greek scriptures. Matt 4:10 "Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. American Standard Version"
Sorry, didn't catch where Jesus stated the name "Jehovah" in that verse. Can you please point to any gospel record, where Jesus says the name Jehovah?
Feel free to link verses and hopscotch the Bible. Others can do that too!
"Sorry, didn't catch where Jesus stated the name "Jehovah" in that verse. Can you please point to any gospel record, where Jesus says the name Jehovah?"
Jesus said "for it is written,"
Where was it written? In deut 6:13 as per Blue Letterbible.org.
"Sorry, didn't catch where Jesus stated the name "Jehovah" in that verse. Can you please point to any gospel record, where Jesus says the name Jehovah?"
Jesus said "for it is written,"
Where was it written? In deut 6:13 as per Blue Letterbible.org.
Who did the linking and hopscotching?
It was Jesus."
=================================
Sorry Voice of Reason, but you're dead wrong again. I've covered this subject in this blog post.
As it turns out, there are no Greek texts that use the tetragrammaton. There is no evidence that the divine name was removed from the Christian Greek scriptures. The Watchtower Society justifies adding the divine name to its English translation by saying that when translators translated Greek scripture that quoted Hebrew scripture, they used the tetragrammaton where the scripture quoted used the tetragrammaton.
*** Rbi8 p. 1564 1D The Divine Name in the Christian Greek Scriptures ***
Sometime during the second or third century C.E. the scribes removed the Tetragrammaton from both the Septuagint and the Christian Greek Scriptures and replaced it with Ky′ri‧os, “Lord” or The‧os′, “God.”
The truth is that there is no evidence that some apostate movement in the 2nd century intentionally removed the divine name from the Greek scriptures. The controversies at the time had nothing to do with whether the divine name should be used. There were four main schools of thought at the time.
There were the 'adoptionists', who thought that Jesus was entirely human, not born of a virgin, who God adopted as his son at baptism.
There were the Docetists, who believed that Jesus was entirly divine, only appearing to be in the flesh on earth.
There were the separationists who believed that Jesus was a human who was also inhabited by the divine Christ that joined Jesus at baptism and separated from him at his execution.
Then there were those that held to what we think of as 'orthodox' Christianity... who eventually acquired enough believers to reduce the other schools of thought to static.
There were fierce debates about the nature of Jesus, but apparently no arguments over the use of the divine name. We have evidence of the disagreements of the time, which is why we know about these other 'Christian' teachings. It would follow that if there were some debate over the use of the divine name that we would see some kind of evidence that the debate existed. I would also expect that if the Watchtower Society had evidence of this anti-divine name debate, they would let the rest of us know about it.
The task of translating the bible does not allow for the insertion of what one thinks should be there. By inserting the divine name where it doesn't exist in our oldest, best texts, the Watchtower Society has perverted what was originally written to support their own doctrine.
Thanks for giving me another opportunity to expose the dishonesty of the Watchtower Society. Keep up the good work!
"Right. According to your works, you pick and choose what to follow and throw out some of the stuff Jehovah gives you as not needed. Nice attitude. "
No, I just apply what fits to me and not to someone over in London. Remember that Jehovah created us as individuals. We are not cookie cut out like the angels.
If Jesus did not use God's name- which is a matter of historical fact- how does the Lord's prayer make sense?
Sanctify whose name?
When Jesus recited the prayer, was he praying to himself?"
==================================
The historical fact is that there are no Greek texts that use the tetragramaton... none. Now, either you translate those texts as they were written or you lie about what was written. The Watchtower Society chose to lie in their 'translation' of the new testament.
For instance, if I were to say to you that "your name is synonymous with 'cult follower'", I would not have actually uttered your name but I would have addressed you directly. This is what Jesus did in His model prayer. He addressed God directly without actually saying his name.
Implying if Jesus didn't say God's name that He was praying to Himself is called a straw man argument and it is ridiculous! People address others all the time without naming them directly.
Your going to have to do better than this. What you need to do is find an early Greek text of the new testament that actually uses God's name. When you find it, then we can talk. Otherwise, you're just parroting the Watchtower Society... and we already have them beat with their own words.
No, I just apply what fits to me and not to someone over in London."
=====================================
Christians are Christians no matter where they are. If you were in London would you be a different type of Jehovah's Witness? Would the teachings of the Christ have a different meaning if you lived next to the Thames?
Sigh... Voice of Reason, you've painted yourself into another corner. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that God has different standards for people depending on where they live! The real problem here is that you are stuck between the scriptures and what the Watchtower Society teaches. No one is asking you to give up Christianity here. All we're asking is that you take a realistic look into the scriptures and a realistic look into the history of the organization you belong to. Really, I think you are in the same situation as Saul of Tarsus. I believe you are sincere, but I also believe you are meant for a greater good.
Shawn: "As it turns out, there are no Greek texts that use the tetragrammaton. There is no evidence that the divine name was removed from the Christian Greek scriptures."
I was not talking about Greek texts. I was talking about the integrity of our lord and savior.
You can put your faith in your Greek texts. but I put my faith in the Lord and savior Jesus.
"Right. And in the original writings Deut 6:13 would contain the tetragrammaton. Translating that to Jehovah is arguable as well. Nice try. Again, show where Jesus said the name Jehovah."
We are not saying that he said 'Jehovah', because the angel that spoke to Mary did not say 'Jesus', did he? The angel did not speak to her in English did he?
Shawn: "As it turns out, there are no Greek texts that use the tetragrammaton. There is no evidence that the divine name was removed from the Christian Greek scriptures."
I was not talking about Greek texts. I was talking about the integrity of our lord and savior.
You can put your faith in your Greek texts. but I put my faith in the Lord and savior Jesus."
==================================
Excuse me, but the Greek texts we're talking about are the basis for the Christian faith. If you are interested in what was actually recorded, you will want to refer to the oldest, best texts that are available. The oldest, best texts of the new testament that are available in Greek do not use the divine name. That being the case, why did the Watchtower Society take liberties by inserting it into their 'translation' of the Bible? If you're truly concerned with the integrity of our lord and savior, then certainly you're concerned about the honesty of the translation of the Bible you reference.
The fact is that the Watchtower Society does not have a single person who is qualified to translate the original texts and yet they produced their own version of the scriptures.
The fact is that your faith is based on a dishonest rendering of the Bible that is published and promoted by the Watchtower Society. A translation that promotes, first and foremost, their own doctrine ahead of what was actually written.
A couple of years ago,when my personal JW was hospitalized, one of the pioneers came to to her hospital room get her report. (As if she had brought it with her.) The nurse told the pioneer not to disturb her as she'd had a bad night. The sister told the nurse:
"This [turning in her time slip] will make her feel much better"
and ignoring medical advise, walk right in and asked for it.
Many JWs came to visit over that week. Two brought cards, one a small plant and everyone left their out of date copies of WT & Awake magazines in the visiting rooms and on her bed table. I guess they were using her illness as an excuse to "place" them with the staff.
Voice of Reason...We are not saying that he said 'Jehovah', because the angel that spoke to Mary did not say 'Jesus', did he? The angel did not speak to her in English did he?
Let me simplify this for you some more. Please show me where Jesus says the name of God specifically. Whether it be Yahweh, Jehovah, or anything else. You won't find it. He calls him Father, not a specific name. You will not find any honest Greek text indicating anything contrary.
Voice of Reason...You can put your faith in your Greek texts. but I put my faith in the Lord and savior Jesus.
How do you put faith in something or someone in which you have nothing supporting it. You choose to ignore Greek text which contain the oldest and most reliable writings on the Lord Jesus. What wriitngs or/and history are you basing your faith on then? Do you just make up what you want to believe?
Voice of Reason...We are not cookie cut out like the angels.
Angels are cookie cut out huh? That's pretty funny. You need to do some more research. There are different types of angels with different duties. Especially, to say the least the angel JW's believe is Jesus - Michael the Archangel. Are you sure you want to stand by that statement?
Why does everyone continue to feed into vor's stupid arguments and comments? There are so many good comments here and none of them are from vor. Vor just picks things apart and contradicts itself, ALL THE TIME. SO WHY EVEN GIVE VOR THE TIME OF DAY??
Sheeplike said: "If Jesus did not use God's name- which is a matter of historical fact- how does the Lord's prayer make sense? Sanctify whose name? When Jesus recited the prayer, was he praying to himself? "
Don't confuse them with logic and reason. If they can't copy and paste from another site, they can't handle it.
Sheeplike said: "If Jesus did not use God's name- which is a matter of historical fact- how does the Lord's prayer make sense? Sanctify whose name? When Jesus recited the prayer, was he praying to himself? "
Don't confuse them with logic and reason. If they can't copy and paste from another site, they can't handle it.
"Let me simplify this for you some more. Please show me where Jesus says the name of God specifically. Whether it be Yahweh, Jehovah, or anything else. You won't find it. He calls him Father, not a specific name. You will not find any honest Greek text indicating anything contrary. "
When he quoted from the Hebrew scriptures he would have quoted it using it.
"How do you put faith in something or someone in which you have nothing supporting it."
The integrity of the Christ is enough isn't it?
" You choose to ignore Greek text which contain the oldest and most reliable writings on the Lord Jesus. What wriitngs or/and history are you basing your faith on then? Do you just make up what you want to believe? "
"Angels are cookie cut out huh? That's pretty funny. You need to do some more research. There are different types of angels with different duties. Especially, to say the least the angel JW's believe is Jesus - Michael the Archangel. Are you sure you want to stand by that statement? "
Yes.
there are differnent types of angels. But they do not have individual personalities like we do.
Sheeplike said... "If Jesus did not use God's name- which is a matter of historical fact- how does the Lord's prayer make sense? Sanctify whose name? When Jesus recited the prayer, was he praying to himself?"
Sanctify whose name? When Jesus recited the prayer, was he praying to himself?
The word “sanctify” or “hallowed” means to set apart as holy. So if we are to “sanctify” God’s name as holy, it would mean we are to treat Him with holiness and reverence in all of our acts of worship so that we reveal the person behind the name in all that we do. The focus is not on the actual literal name of God, but rather what we do and how we treat Him. Jesus taught his disciples to pray “Our Father. . .” instead of saying “Jehovah”. This is in harmony with people who are God’s sons that cry out “Abba! Father!” when they address Him. How would your father like it if you always addressed him by his first name instead of calling him “Daddy” or “Father”?
Looking at the family arrangment, do the children have equal authority as the parents? No. Does the fact that a parent is in a greater position of authority than their child, prove that one is inferior to the parent? Of course not. If it was the case, one can argue that a child is less human than their parent, because the child obeyed the parent’s rules. Being in a greater position of authority doesn’t make a person inherently better than someone else, does it? At Luke 2:51, the Bible says that Jesus was subject to Mary and Joseph. Does this mean that He was inferior to them?
Just as a son is no more or no less “human” than his father, so Jesus as God’s Son is no more or no less “God” than his Father is “God.” This is why the Jews endeavored to stone Jesus for blasphemy. They understood Jesus’ claim to be the “Son of God” as a claim that made Him “equal” in nature to the one and only true God. This is also why Jesus called the Father His “God” at John 20:17. His Father would always be His “God,” just as our human fathers will always be our “human” ancestors.
Because God in His very nature cannot be seen, tempted, nor physically die to pay for the sins of mankind, it was necessary for Jesus to add a human nature to His Divine person so that He could redeem mankind. Philippians 2:5-10 explains how Jesus continued to exist in God’s “form” (i.e., nature), but relinquished His right to enjoy equality with God so that He could limit Himself to the human nature he had adopted in order to redeem mankind. Thus, by adding a human dimension to His Divine person, Jesus became the visible “image of the invisible God” (Colossians 1:15).
Jesus is God, but not the Father. Jesus is not the same person as the Father, but yet possess God’s nature as the only true God. As the Son of God, Jesus is equal in nature to God the Father, but chose to be confined to the limitations of His humanity while on earth so that He could purchase mankind’s redemption. That is why as human Jesus stated that The Father is greater than he was due to Jesus’ present form.
In trying to explain away the Trinity some focus on the fact that the word “Trinity” is not found in the Bible. But does the actual word being present in the Bible serve as proof as to whether something exists or is factual? Are we to argue that the concept of a theocracy—in which God will rule mankind—is not Biblical just because the word “theocracy” is not found in the Bible?
Simply because the word “Trinity” is not found in the Bible does not prove that it is not a Biblical teaching. At Matthew 28:19, Jesus said: “Go therefore and make disciples… baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.…” Notice that in this verse, plurality within unity is indicated by the fact that the word “name” is in the singular form while the definite article “the” is placed in front of each of the persons: “…the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.…” The doctrine of the Trinity is not Modalism—the view that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all one person; nor is it Tritheism—the view that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are three separate Gods. Each member is separate and distinct in his personhood, yet they comprise the one God. Thus, in defining the Trinity doctrine, the Athanasian Creed states: “Neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Substance.…and yet they are not three Gods, but one God.”
Voice of Reason said...[Another attacking remark of a persons character which ignores the points made concerning the flaws and ingnorance in his beliefs and teachings].
Ronde wrote: "But it is the exjws that can not think for themselves because they just copy and paste from other sites."
I've read many things on this site that are not copied from other sites. Many personal experiences, like the ones from Kimmy Jo, whose child was molested and nothing was done about it.
But then again, why would Ronde care. The same person who put the full blame on the victims of child abuse and their parents! OMG
Ronde, your contributions to this web-blog have not helped your cause.
In reading what you have wrote over the past few months, I'm very concerned about your mental stability.
I really believe that you are not a well person. Please seek help before you harm yourself.
Voice of Reason seek professional help immediately. You probably are suffering from schizophrenia or multiple personality disorder. You need a psychiatrist and probably need to take medications. You're double talking, illogical and almost incoherent. You are mentally unstable.
I sure hope this is not a result of being a part of the Watchtower Society for too long.
Well written response. One caveat, if you will allow me: The 144,000 are the only ones who will go to heaven and rule with Christ, the rest will “live forever in paradise on earth as perfect beings.”
94 comments:
which part of the page?
I know this mentality has been going on forever. Back in the 70s and 80s my dad was totally disabled with a heart condition. He could hardly walk to the bathroom without getting chest pain and short of breath. They hounded him til the day he died to go in service.
Mow my father in law. same thing, he has been suffering a broken neck and heart disease for decades. He cannot attend meetings or go door to door. Imagine this: His Star pioneer wife screams at him and calls him a pharisee for not going.
Amazing closed mindedness and ignorance of the human condition coming straight from the wt into the minds of idiots.
Anonymous said...
which part of the page?
It is called subliminal messaging. The paragraphs Theocratic Joker has placed up for our viewing, shows how the organization behind Jehovah’s Witnesses is very cautious and crafty on how it phrases taking care of one’s health, but the more important things need to come first. What would those ‘more important things consist of? Well, the paragraphs go on to relate it is basically Field Service (“An active share in the work of spiritual healing”). A person who is feeling sick or depressed then comes across this information along with “This joyful activity benefits us” as if going out in field service will definitely help aliments people are dealing with day to day.
While stating, “Our attitude should differ from that of those who have “no hope””, it plants in the mind of the faithful member of JW’s that if they're thinking about their sickness too much or too often they’re just like so-called ”worldly people” and it makes them a part of Satan’s system. The fact of the matter is most people will worry and will be concerned (Perhaps even very concerned of their health). They should not have the extra burden of worrying they’re like those with “no hope”.
The writer then presents what can seem to the reader as the solution of being like those with “no hope”…field service.
The truth is those people need rest and to take care of themselves first. If the sickness is mental and/or emotional they need psychiatric help as well. Field Service is not going to fix or help those problems. Granted, some individuals may be hypochondriacs and for those they do need to fix their mind on other things which may include helping people. However, for the majority who are sick, Field Service is not the answer contrary to the opinion and support of the organization behind Jehovah’s Witnesses.
The kicker is the “hope” the Watchtower is using as taking selectively from the scriptures does not speak about a Paradise Earth (Paradise Earth is not even in the Bible). Notice how they site verse 2 and 12. What about all the other verses the chapter? Like verse 6 for example:
“and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,“
There is no mention of a Paradise Earth or perfect health on Earth that the organization behind Jehovah’s Witnesses is leading readers to believe. Rather it is the hope of being resurrected to be together with Christ. For Jehovah’s Witnesses it is only for a select 144,000; according to the organization behind Jehovah’s Witnesses’ interpretation and teachings of scripture. For Chrisitans it includes many others.
As a last side point, verse 16 also states:
“and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.”
Don’t expect that to be in the New World Translation Bible as put forth by the organization behind Jehovah's Witnesses. They probably again placed the word 'stake' there as the Reasoning from the Scriptures publications from the Organization behind Jehovah’s Witnesses claims the original Greek word “Stauros” cannot mean cross. Which is wrong, as Stauros was being used to signify a cross for at least 100 years prior to the time of Jesus. That is a whole other ball of wax though, which I encourage everyone to do their research and not to take my word and certainly not the word of an organization. Do the research!
i dont agree with on that fully. it maybe interpreted that way, but its in my eyes foremost to keep witnesses from getting too much into alternative medicine or similar. its a plague within the witnesses, since they believe easily whatever they are taught and that means that they go crazy with medicin stuff rather that study and increase the indoctrination.
When you're a cult member, you have to EARN your everlasting life. Don't get sick, and God forbid, don't miss a meeting.
Where does it say that?
No one hounds anyone to go out in service.
IT is right in that people are too focused on their health.
Ronde wrote: "No one hounds anyone to go out in service."
Is it required for everlasting life?
Where does the Watchtower come up with this stuff?????
OMG...it is so ridiculous and outrageous the sh-- they come up with.
Although obsession is not good with any matter, to take care of ones health is much more important than peddling mags and a dried up message.
Sorry, I don't agree with the interpretation of the article as indicated by the post title
even if the org really force sick people to go out in service, how much time ones able to contribute, let alone it will not be effective
so I think the article is about to balance your view and mind when you are sick with serious illness
"Ronde wrote: "No one hounds anyone to go out in service."
Is it required for everlasting life? "
Ronde didn't write that, I did.
I am not Ronde.
No, it is not required for everlasting life, but an attitude more humble than yours is.
Voice of Reason said...No, it is not required for everlasting life, but an attitude more humble than yours is.
Practice what you preach. You judge people, hate them and condemn them to death based on your opinion and interpretation of scriptures. Your comments stink of haughtiness.
That Watchtower article is certainly awful to people who are suffering. Could you imagine Jesus saying such things to people who are sick? Thank God I look to my exemplier Christ for strength and support and not the Watchtower.
Voice of Reason said... IT is right in that people are too focused on their health.
So saith Voice of Reason along with the followers of hating and judging people.
Yes, suck it up.
Matt Smith won the Lucas Oil Nationals while suffering pain from 10 kidney stones. Winners never quit. He sucked it up and won.
Somebody wrote: "I am not Ronde."
Your credibility is slightly less than zero. How can we trust you? You continually falsify what JWs believe. Don't try to bullshit a bullshitter. You should know this by now.
When I had a breakdown, I was told the remedy was to pray more, study more, go to all the meetings and go in filed service. I did all those things. It didnt work. I was then told it was me that was at fault because Jehovah's direction always works.
I could not pray...I felt completely down and unworthy. I could not read a page of a book of any sort, never mind study. I struggled through the meetings and the last thing I wanted to do was go and tell people about the new system when I felt so crap.
I sometimes went to the doors and came away without knocking after having an internal struggle with myself.
The problem with the JWs is, and most other religions too, they havent got a Plan B. If prayer and the other stuff doesnt work, then its your fault and youre on your own. So much for the loving care that is supposed to identify true Christians.
The leaders of the JW religion are 'Symptom Warriers'. They are obsessed with works and things that are measurable. Spontaneous works, propelled by love of God and neighbor are foreign to them.
They brag about their Spiritual Routine. Serving God is a regimented requirement. It does not spring from a heart filled with appreciation and love. It springs from fear of displeasing a tyrant God and his human caretakers.
"The leaders of the JW religion are"
What would you all know about the JW religion or the leaders?
Annon;
"so I think the article is about to balance your view and mind when you are sick with serious illness"
Wow. That's a word you will almost NEVER hear from the Watchtower. Balance? Did they even mention the word in the article? Why couln't they just said that from the beggining?
Our circuit overseer said he once knew an elderly woman who had a broken arms/legs/limbs....oh....but she could still move her mouth and that did not stop her from preaching thru a mirror! So whats our excuse? (oh the guilt trip.....as long as you can fricking move your mouth....you better be using it till the last minute..lol). Oh and the elderly sister died. They did not say if any brothers went to go vist her....oh wait they did, but only the secretary to collect her 'time'....how loving.
VOR (alias Ronde) replied in part: "Ronde didn't write that, I did. I am not Ronde."
Okay, if you've never been a JW, you would wonder how someone who professes to be Christian could tell a lie.
Well, JW's leaders have a teaching called Theocratic Warfare - in short what this means is if you lie for Theocratice reasons, it's okay.
So, I want to thank you Ronde for helping all non-JW's reading this web-blog to see Theocratice Warfare with their own eyes and how people like yourself use it to excuse their obvious lies.
VOR (who lies that he's not Ronde) said: "What would you all know about the JW religion or the leaders?"
I'll leave that to the non-JW's to decide whether all of us ex's know anything about the JW religion and its leaders.
Fact is, we are their only hope should they someday want to see what is wrong with this religion because WE HAVE LIVED IT - many of us previously as faithful and loyal as any other JW.
People like VOR (alias Ronde) would say anything - even lie - in order to cover up the serious sins of this religion (i.e. policies that protected pedophilia, false prophecies, membership with the Wild Beast in the form of NGO support, etc. etc. etc.).
VOR (alias Ronde) replied, "IT is right in that people are too focused on their health."
This coming from someone who has quoted lines from the movie Rocky. Ronde has quoted them in response to how he lives his life!
That's why Ronde disappeared and reappeared as Voice of Reason, because he developed such a bad reputation as a JW on this web-blog (I also believe he's using Anonymous and other alias as well).
So, Ronde, if you aren't taking exercise too serious, you need to stop playing those Rocky theme songs when you exercise - get out in service and stop visiting sites that expose your religion!
Then again, you may find these indisputable sites helpful in finding the real truth about JWs:
www.sixscreensofthewatchtower.com
www.jwfacts.com
www.freeminds.org
ETC.
Just like a politician, so many here just love to take things out of context.
The article is fair and balanced. Why do you not quote from articles containing reminders about how to help the elderly or ill?
AND, the preaching work is done out of love, never judgement.
anon said:
Wow. That's a word you will almost NEVER hear from the Watchtower. Balance? Did they even mention the word in the article? Why couln't they just said that from the beggining?
My Response:
How do you so sure you never hear the word "Balance" from the WT.
And yes that word didn't appear in this particular page, but also the word "Suck it up".
That's why I said earlier that it is an interpretation (that in my opinion is not right so I didn't agree).
Another things is GBL didn't present the rest of the article (before and after this page), so the information is limited. If we have the complete article, maybe much of the debate about this topic here will not be neccesary.
"Our circuit overseer said he once knew an elderly woman who had a broken arms/legs/limbs....oh....but she could still move her mouth and that did not stop her from preaching thru a mirror! So whats our excuse? (oh the guilt trip.....as long as you can fricking move your mouth....you better be using it till the last minute..lol). Oh and the elderly sister died. They did not say if any brothers went to go vist her....oh wait they did, but only the secretary to collect her 'time'....how loving."
Then why don't you set the example rather than coming on here and complaining? I don't complain, I set the proper example.
"to cover up the serious sins of this religion (i.e. policies that protected pedophilia, false prophecies, membership with the Wild Beast in the form of NGO support, etc. etc. etc.)."
Sorry to tell you but those are not sins of my religion.
My religion protected no pedophiles, was not with the UN, etc.
If you claim the Watchtower did that but the watchotwer is not my religion. Jehovah's Witnesses is.
Sheeplike said...Just like a politician, so many here just love to take things out of context.
Some like to pick and choose what to follow in the JW religion. Much like yourself and Voice of Reason.
Voice of Reason said... Then why don't you set the example.
I have set the example as MANY others. By leaving the religion known as Jehovah's Witnesses who are provided doctrine and teachings by a bunch of men who appoint themselves as a Faithful and Discreet Slave Class/Governing Body Members [which doesn't exist in the Bible], and in turn dispense their thoughts through various publications; primarily the Watchtower.
I set the example in leaving and encouraging all my friends and family and anyone to follow Christ and not an organization. A religion can be part of your worship to God, it should not be the focus. The Organization puts themselves as deserving the same loyality and devotion as one should give to The Son, The Father and The Holy Spirit.
Whether you choose to follow it, believe it, go against it, or deny it, the organization as can be inclusive but not exclusive to be represented by the terms...
Faithful and Discreet Slace Class of Jehovah's Witnesses
The Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses
The (Watchtower) Society
The Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses
The Watchtower Bible Tract Society
...drills into the minds of its followers through their publications and talks, assemblies and conventions, that they are to be obeyed and followed as loyally as one would be to Christ. They teach loyality to the organization is key to salvation. That is a lie. That is not Chrisitan.
Christ ALONE is The Way, The Truth, The Light:
John 14:6 (New King James Version)
"Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."
Voice of Reason...My religion protected no pedophiles, was not with the UN, etc.
You are in denial. Face the facts!
Voice Or Reason...I don't complain, I set the proper example.
Really? According to the teachings of Jehovah's Witnesses you should not even be looking at this site not to mention posting messages.
You can lie to yourself all you want, you're actions reveal differently than what your type.
"Sheeplike said...
Just like a politician, so many here just love to take things out of context. "
Ok, let's talk about taking things out of context. First of all LGB is posting whole pages of the Watchtower. The reader is free to look at the quotes in context.
Secondly, the Watchtower Society has taken someone's comment out of context to support their dishonest translation of the Bible.
*** Rbi8 p. 1564 1D The Divine Name in the Christian Greek Scriptures ***
Concerning the use of the Tetragrammaton in the Christian Greek Scriptures, George Howard of the University of Georgia wrote in Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 96, 1977, p. 63: “Recent discoveries in Egypt and the Judean Desert allow us to see first hand the use of God’s name in pre-Christian times. These discoveries are significant for N[ew] T[estament] studies in that they form a literary analogy with the earliest Christian documents and may explain how NT authors used the divine name. In the following pages we will set forth a theory that the divine name,( יהוה and possibly abbreviations of it), was originally written in the NT quotations of and allusions to the O[ld] T[estament] and that in the course of time it was replaced mainly with the surrogate ? [abbreviation for Ky′ri‧os, “Lord”]. This removal of the Tetragram[maton], in our view, created a confusion in the minds of early Gentile Christians about the relationship between the ‘Lord God’ and the ‘Lord Christ’ which is reflected in the MS tradition of the NT text itself.”
We concur with the above, with this exception: We do not consider this view a “theory,” rather, a presentation of the facts of history as to the transmission of Bible manuscripts.
The translation committee did not consider George Howard's views as theory, but George Howard did. In the article The "NEW WORLD TRANSLATION"— Scholarly and Honest? by B J Kotwall (Investigator 19, 1991 July), George Howard responded to the Watchtower Society's claims.
The University of Georgia
January 9, 1990
Steven Butt
P.O. _____
Portland, ME 04104
Dear Mr. Butt:
Thank you for your letter of 3 January 1990. I have been distressed for sometime about the use the Jehovah’s Witnesses are making of my publications. My research does not support their denial of the deity of Christ. What I tried to show was that there is evidence that the Septuagint Bibles used by the writers of the New Testament contained the Hebrew Tetragrammaton. I argued that it is reasonable to assume that the NT writers, when quoting from the Septuagint, retained the Tetragrammaton in the quotations. This does not support the JW’s insertion of "Jehovah" in every place they want. To do this is to remove the NT from its original "theological climate." My opinion of the New World Translation (based on limited exposure) is that it is odd. I suspect that it is a Translation designed to support JW theology. Finally, my theory about the Tetragrammaton is just that, a theory. Some of my colleagues disagree with me (for example Albert Pietersma). Theories like mine are important to be set forth so that others can investigate their probability and implications. Until they are proven (and mine has not been proven) they should not be used as a surety for belief.
Sincerely,
George Howard
Going further, the Watchtower Society's New World Translation (NWT) committee was not consistent in its 'restoration' of the divine name to the Greek scriptures. The NWT appendix states that haAdohn is a title limited exclusively to Jehovah God and that Adoni refers to Jesus as My Lord. They mostly followed this rule, breaking it when Jesus is referred to as Jehovah.
So when the Watchtower Society discontinues its intellectually dishonest practices of misquoting scholars to support their doctrine, then maybe you can point the finger of blame at others.
Anon...Another things is GBL didn't present the rest of the article (before and after this page), so the information is limited.
You mean like the Watchtower does in its publications such as Reasoning From the Scriptures, where it partially quotes and takes text sources out of context?
Just checking.
"Some like to pick and choose what to follow in the JW religion. Much like yourself and Voice of Reason. "
No, it is not picking and choosing, it is realizing that we are individuals but the Watchtower is written for 10 million and it is not written for us individually so we have to discern what fits with our lives.
"I have set the example as MANY others. By leaving the religion known as Jehovah's Witnesses who are provided doctrine and teachings by a bunch of men who appoint themselves as a Faithful and Discreet Slave Class/Governing Body Members"
That is the wrong example.
The doctrine and teachings are true to the best we can know today. Those who are in other religions do not have any truth.
But JWs do not worry about and focus on (or should not be) the governing body and FDS. I set that proper example.
"Voice of Reason...My religion protected no pedophiles, was not with the UN, etc.
You are in denial. Face the facts! "
No, there are no facts otherwise.
No pedophiles were ever protected. The eyewitnesses always had the option to do what they wanted.
And certain people who worked at the WTS filed application with the UN NGO, not the religion. Those ones are not religious leaders.
"'Voice Or Reason...I don't complain, I set the proper example.'
Really? According to the teachings of Jehovah's Witnesses you should not even be looking at this site not to mention posting messages.
You can lie to yourself all you want, you're actions reveal differently than what your type. "
Says what? The teachings are for the general populous, not for every individual equally.
You need to balance things out.
"You mean like the Watchtower does in its publications such as Reasoning From the Scriptures, where it partially quotes and takes text sources out of context?"
If that is the case then why can't you prove it? Or do you just put forth hot air?
Voice of Reason...The doctrine and teachings are true to the best we can know today. Those who are in other religions do not have any truth.
Circular logic. And no proof or facts. Your claim of truth is your opinion.
The doctrine and teachings of my XYZ religion are true to the best we can know today. Those who are in other religions outside of my XYZ religion do not have any truth.
Voice Of Reason...the Watchtower is written for 10 million and it is not written for us individually so we have to discern what fits with our lives.
Wow, you come up with new teachings everytime - Don't you?
Who ever stated the Watchtower is written for (only) 10 million? There are 7 million JW, and 7 billion people on the earth. Who make up the 10 million?
Voice of reason...Says what? The teachings are for the general populous, not for every individual equally.
You need to start your own religion. That certainly is not the teachings of JWs. You are excusing what counsel and information is applicable to you. You judge people. Claim you hate people. You make claims you have truth because you say so. Yet, you say you have God. Start a cult. JW is not cult-like enought for you.
Voice of Reason...If that is the case then why can't you prove it? Or do you just put forth hot air?
No need to prove anything to anyone. No hot air here. People need to do the research and thinking for themselves. When I did that's when I discovered it. However, feel free to continue on with the rules and teachings you believe you want to apply from JWs. Call yourself a JW, or whatever you believe yourself to be. Your really a sick individual that needs help. I pity you.
"Wow, you come up with new teachings everytime - Don't you?
Who ever stated the Watchtower is written for (only) 10 million? There are 7 million JW, and 7 billion people on the earth. Who make up the 10 million? "
There are about 10 million that attend the meetings for the study articles and 35 million for the public articles. But that was just a general figure. Your ignorance is showing by your focusing on that.
"You need to start your own religion. That certainly is not the teachings of JWs. You are excusing what counsel and information is applicable to you."
How would you know what the teachings of JWs are since you just focus on what is written? There is much more to it than that?
"Voice of Reason said...
"Some like to pick and choose what to follow in the JW religion. Much like yourself and Voice of Reason. "
No, it is not picking and choosing, it is realizing that we are individuals but the Watchtower is written for 10 million and it is not written for us individually so we have to discern what fits with our lives."
================================
Let's see what the Watchtower Society has to say about your views, shall we?
*** w06 11/1 pp. 22-23 pars. 1-7 Do You Share Jehovah’s View of Sacred Things? ***
THE world in general pays less and less attention to sacred things. French sociologist Edgar Morin stated: “All the foundations upon which morals are based—God, nature, homeland, history, reason—have lost their unquestionable nature. . . . People pick and choose their values.” This reflects “the spirit of the world,” or “the spirit that now operates in the sons of disobedience.” (1 Corinthians 2:12; Ephesians 2:2) That irreverent spirit is not shared by those who have dedicated themselves to Jehovah and who willingly submit to his rightful sovereignty. (Romans 12:1, 2) ...
7 Submission to Christ also involves our showing proper respect for the men used by him to take the lead in the work he is now directing. The role of the spirit-anointed ones who make up the Governing Body and of the overseers appointed by them in the branches, districts, circuits, and congregations should be recognized as a sacred responsibility. This arrangement therefore commands our deep respect and submission.—Hebrews 13:7, 17.
***
*** w91 3/15 p. 16 par. 14 Keep Pace With Jehovah’s Celestial Chariot ***
14 To that end, we need a good routine of personal prayer, private study, and participation in the holy ministry of the good news. (Romans 15:16) Recall Ezekiel’s example in eating the roll containing God’s message. Ezekiel consumed the entire roll, not part of it. He did not pick and choose morsels that might have been more to his personal taste. Similarly, our personal study of the Bible and Christian publications should be regulated to keep pace with the flow of spiritual food, and we should partake of all that is put on the spiritual table
***
*** w84 6/1 p. 31 Insight on the News ***
The report, says one church historian, shows a “‘pick-and-choose’ Christianity” where individual members select or reject beliefs according to their own spiritual goals. In fact, two thirds of those surveyed “saw no harm in rejecting some of their church’s doctrines.” Said one woman: “I feel that in religious training, as in any other thing, you are taught the basics. From those basics, you sort out what you want or pick it apart as you see fit.”
However, the apostle Paul, under inspiration, wrote that this was not to be the case with true Christians when he said: “Now I exhort you, brothers, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ that you should all speak in agreement, and that there should not be divisions among you, but that you may be fitly united in the same mind and in the same line of thought.”—1 Corinthians 1:10.
***
*** w67 10/1 pp. 585-586 Finding Freedom with Jehovah’s Visible Organization ***
ORGANIZATION IS THE ORDER OF THE UNIVERSE
4 Do not these promises of God give concrete reality to his kingdom? They mean that God will make his kingdom under Christ just as real in governmental functions as the governments of men now ruling. God’s promises mean, too, that provision must be made to administer that kingdom and see that its laws are properly enforced. The prophet Jeremiah foretold this as the purpose of Jehovah, who says: “I will raise up over them shepherds who will actually shepherd them; and they will be afraid no more.” (Jer. 23:4) Isaiah testified as to the benefits of this arrangement: “Look! A king will reign for righteousness itself; and as respects princes, they will rule as princes for justice itself.” (Isa. 32:1) But this prophecy of Isaiah reveals something further, namely, that this administration of God’s righteousness will begin even before God removes the governments of this system of things. For the prophecy continues: “And each one must prove to be like a hiding place from the wind and a place of concealment from the rainstorm, like streams of water in a waterless country, like the shadow of a heavy crag in an exhausted land.” (Isa. 32:2) All this emphasizes a well-ordered arrangement of persons, a concerted, united effort to accomplish a purpose. That means organization.
5 To some persons, though, one’s conforming to the rules or regulations of an organization is stifling to one’s individuality. Others, reasoning similarly, say that God is dealing with them personally, directing each one in an understanding of the Bible. However, the spiritual laws of God are just as necessary to our well-being as natural laws; and who among the individualists would refuse to conform to God’s law of eating and drinking, for example, for fear of losing his individuality? Men can go on hunger strikes in protest against social or political evils, but they do not escape the need for food. Furthermore, these physical needs and the laws that govern them are common to all men. We are not free to pick and choose according to our individual whims.
6 Why, then, is it reasonable to believe that spiritual laws do not apply with the same uniformity to all? In fact, it is more important for God’s living, intelligent Creatures to have law, order and organization than it is for the inanimate, nonsoulical or soulless bodies of nature. Plants grow and stars move in orbit with no free will choice. God’s laws of nature control them and they cannot resist. As a result, the universe of such bodies is orderly and harmonious throughout. But man is a freewill agent and can, if he so desires, exercise his choice of action in an indiscriminate way. If all men were to do so, however, only a state of anarchy would result. So, to say that we do not need organization or that God directs each individual independently is to deny the interdependent order of the universe and the common provision that Jehovah has made for the sustenance of our physical needs. In fact, our very possession of free will should emphasize to us the need for organization, theocratic organization, that is, ruled by God from the top down.
***
Opps, wrong again Voice of Reason! Apparently you are not free "to discern what fits with our lives." That attitude exhibits "the spirit of the world".
" Voice of Reason said...
"You need to start your own religion. That certainly is not the teachings of JWs. You are excusing what counsel and information is applicable to you."
How would you know what the teachings of JWs are since you just focus on what is written? There is much more to it than that?"
=================================
Sorry, wrong again. There are more facets of the Watchtower Society's organization that just what is written, but that doesn't mean that what is written doesn't matter or is somehow overridden by these other facets from the point of view of Jehovah's Witnesses. The materials produced by the faithful and discreet slave are the primary means by which Jehovah's Witnesses receive their beliefs.
" Voice of Reason said...
"You mean like the Watchtower does in its publications such as Reasoning From the Scriptures, where it partially quotes and takes text sources out of context?"
If that is the case then why can't you prove it? Or do you just put forth hot air?"
==================================
First of all, I snicker when I read your pseudo-biblesque phrases like 'put forth hot air'. I'm guessing you think this makes you sound scholarly, but it really just makes you sound like an idiot... especially when it's paired with the content of your message.
If you'd like to see a fluorescent example of the Watchtower Society taking text sources out of context, open your copy of the New World Translation, one of the most intellectually dishonest versions of the Bible available.
*** Rbi8 p. 1564 1D The Divine Name in the Christian Greek Scriptures ***
Concerning the use of the Tetragrammaton in the Christian Greek Scriptures, George Howard of the University of Georgia wrote in Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 96, 1977, p. 63: “Recent discoveries in Egypt and the Judean Desert allow us to see first hand the use of God’s name in pre-Christian times. These discoveries are significant for N[ew] T[estament] studies in that they form a literary analogy with the earliest Christian documents and may explain how NT authors used the divine name. In the following pages we will set forth a theory that the divine name,( יהוה and possibly abbreviations of it), was originally written in the NT quotations of and allusions to the O[ld] T[estament] and that in the course of time it was replaced mainly with the surrogate ? [abbreviation for Ky′ri‧os, “Lord”]. This removal of the Tetragram[maton], in our view, created a confusion in the minds of early Gentile Christians about the relationship between the ‘Lord God’ and the ‘Lord Christ’ which is reflected in the MS tradition of the NT text itself.”
We concur with the above, with this exception: We do not consider this view a “theory,” rather, a presentation of the facts of history as to the transmission of Bible manuscripts.
The translation committee did not consider George Howard's views as theory, but George Howard did. In the article The "NEW WORLD TRANSLATION"— Scholarly and Honest? by B J Kotwall (Investigator 19, 1991 July), George Howard responded to the Watchtower Society's claims.
The University of Georgia
January 9, 1990
Steven Butt
P.O. _____
Portland, ME 04104
Dear Mr. Butt:
Thank you for your letter of 3 January 1990. I have been distressed for sometime about the use the Jehovah’s Witnesses are making of my publications. My research does not support their denial of the deity of Christ. What I tried to show was that there is evidence that the Septuagint Bibles used by the writers of the New Testament contained the Hebrew Tetragrammaton. I argued that it is reasonable to assume that the NT writers, when quoting from the Septuagint, retained the Tetragrammaton in the quotations. This does not support the JW’s insertion of "Jehovah" in every place they want. To do this is to remove the NT from its original "theological climate." My opinion of the New World Translation (based on limited exposure) is that it is odd. I suspect that it is a Translation designed to support JW theology. Finally, my theory about the Tetragrammaton is just that, a theory. Some of my colleagues disagree with me (for example Albert Pietersma). Theories like mine are important to be set forth so that others can investigate their probability and implications. Until they are proven (and mine has not been proven) they should not be used as a surety for belief.
Sincerely,
George Howard
Going further, the Watchtower Society's New World Translation (NWT) committee was not consistent in its 'restoration' of the divine name to the Greek scriptures. The NWT appendix states that haAdohn is a title limited exclusively to Jehovah God and that Adoni refers to Jesus as My Lord. They mostly followed this rule, breaking it when Jesus is referred to as Jehovah.
I also love how you demand examples and proof from all of us while you pull your own version of JW doctrine out of thin air. Your arguments are so easily disproven it's laughable, but I'm sure you're a legend in your own mind.
"Opps, wrong again Voice of Reason! Apparently you are not free "to discern what fits with our lives." That attitude exhibits "the spirit of the world"."
Since Jesus did not micromanage the lives of his followers, the ones who call him Lord, whatever makes you think that the governing body micromanages the lives of their brothers?
Shawn, you ought to put the CD away and learn that being one of Jehovah's Witnesses is not about quotes from the Watchtower, it is about a heart that is serving Jehovah.
"The materials produced by the faithful and discreet slave are the primary means by which Jehovah's Witnesses receive their beliefs. "
Except there is nothing marked "Written by the FDS"
Provisions by Jehovah are all equal.
What matters is not who writes what but what we do with what Jehovah gives us.
Voice of Reason said... What matters is not who writes what but what we do with what Jehovah gives us.
Right. According to your works, you pick and choose what to follow and throw out some of the stuff Jehovah gives you as not needed.
Nice attitude.
Voice of Reason...Shawn, you ought to put the CD away and learn that being one of Jehovah's Witnesses is not about quotes from the Watchtower, it is about a heart that is serving Jehovah.
VoR, you should stop living in a facade of thinking your serving Jehovah when you pick and choose what to follow and apply from the spiritual food provided to you through the Watchtower.
Shawn, you are all smoke and mirrors.
As to Jehovah's name in the Christian Greek scriptures.
Matt 4:10 "Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. American Standard Version"
It is written? Where
Deut 6:13.
"Thou shalt fear Jehovah thy God; and him shalt thou serve, and shalt swear by his name.
American Standard Version 1901 Info"
If Jesus said it is written, then he would have quoted it as it was written, with is Father's name.
What this professor says or theorizes does not change it.
Like I said, don't worry about what the Watchtower printed in what book. Use the Bible.
Voice of Reason...Since Jesus did not micromanage the lives of his followers, the ones who call him Lord, whatever makes you think that the governing body micromanages the lives of their brothers?
You're right Jesus did not micromanage to lives of Christians. However, the governing body certainly likes to try to. People like yourself prove they will ultimately fail with some individuals, since simple counsel and direction concerning not even viewing apostate (As defined by the Watchtower) sites you choose to ignore.
" Voice of Reason said...
"The materials produced by the faithful and discreet slave are the primary means by which Jehovah's Witnesses receive their beliefs. "
Except there is nothing marked "Written by the FDS"
Provisions by Jehovah are all equal.
What matters is not who writes what but what we do with what Jehovah gives us."
=================================
Here's why the Watchtower Society doesn't list the authors and editors of their publications.
*** jv chap. 10 pp. 142-146 Growing in Accurate Knowledge of the Truth ***
It was to Jehovah as their Grand Instructor that readers of the Watch Tower were encouraged to look, even as all of Jehovah’s Witnesses are today. (Isa. 30:20) This was strongly emphasized in The Watchtower of November 1, 1931, in the article “Taught of God,” which stated: “The Watchtower recognizes the truth as belonging to Jehovah, and not to any creature. The Watchtower is not the instrument of any man or set of men, nor is it published according to the whims of men. . . . Jehovah God is the great Teacher of his children. To be sure, the publication of these truths is put forth by imperfect men, and for this reason they are not absolutely perfect in form; but they are put forth in such form as reflects God’s truth that he teaches his children.”
***
In 1931, when Jehovah's Witnesses saw many other policy changes, the Watchtower Society stopped listing the writers and editors because, in their words "all credit is given to Jehovah God". At first glace this may not sound bad at all. After all, they are trying to give glory to God, right? Not necessarily. If someone were to vandalize a bunch of cars and then 'give you the credit' for it, you probably wouldn't be too happy. By not crediting the human writers for the articles that are written, the Watchtower Society is saying "Watchtower is not the instrument of any man or set of men, nor is it published according to the whims of men". In other words, the information in the Watchtower society's publications comes from God. True, they admit that the publications are written by imperfect men, but are "put forth in such form as reflects God’s truth that he teaches his children.” The emphasis is on the claim that the Watchtower publications are 'God's truth'. It's a subtle shift from declaring the good news to actually writing it and in effect, assuming divine authority.
Voice of Reason said...
Shawn, you are all smoke and mirrors.
As to Jehovah's name in the Christian Greek scriptures.
Matt 4:10 "Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. American Standard Version"
Sorry, didn't catch where Jesus stated the name "Jehovah" in that verse. Can you please point to any gospel record, where Jesus says the name Jehovah?
Feel free to link verses and hopscotch the Bible. Others can do that too!
"Sorry, didn't catch where Jesus stated the name "Jehovah" in that verse. Can you please point to any gospel record, where Jesus says the name Jehovah?"
Jesus said "for it is written,"
Where was it written? In deut 6:13 as per Blue Letterbible.org.
Who did the linking and hopscotching?
It was Jesus.
"the governing body certainly likes to try to"
You are wrong.
Voice of Reason said...
"the governing body certainly likes to try to"
You are wrong.
You are wrong.
" Voice of Reason said...
"Sorry, didn't catch where Jesus stated the name "Jehovah" in that verse. Can you please point to any gospel record, where Jesus says the name Jehovah?"
Jesus said "for it is written,"
Where was it written? In deut 6:13 as per Blue Letterbible.org.
Who did the linking and hopscotching?
It was Jesus."
=================================
Sorry Voice of Reason, but you're dead wrong again. I've covered this subject in this blog post.
As it turns out, there are no Greek texts that use the tetragrammaton. There is no evidence that the divine name was removed from the Christian Greek scriptures. The Watchtower Society justifies adding the divine name to its English translation by saying that when translators translated Greek scripture that quoted Hebrew scripture, they used the tetragrammaton where the scripture quoted used the tetragrammaton.
*** Rbi8 p. 1564 1D The Divine Name in the Christian Greek Scriptures ***
Sometime during the second or third century C.E. the scribes removed the Tetragrammaton from both the Septuagint and the Christian Greek Scriptures and replaced it with Ky′ri‧os, “Lord” or The‧os′, “God.”
The truth is that there is no evidence that some apostate movement in the 2nd century intentionally removed the divine name from the Greek scriptures. The controversies at the time had nothing to do with whether the divine name should be used. There were four main schools of thought at the time.
There were the 'adoptionists', who thought that Jesus was entirely human, not born of a virgin, who God adopted as his son at baptism.
There were the Docetists, who believed that Jesus was entirly divine, only appearing to be in the flesh on earth.
There were the separationists who believed that Jesus was a human who was also inhabited by the divine Christ that joined Jesus at baptism and separated from him at his execution.
Then there were those that held to what we think of as 'orthodox' Christianity... who eventually acquired enough believers to reduce the other schools of thought to static.
There were fierce debates about the nature of Jesus, but apparently no arguments over the use of the divine name. We have evidence of the disagreements of the time, which is why we know about these other 'Christian' teachings. It would follow that if there were some debate over the use of the divine name that we would see some kind of evidence that the debate existed. I would also expect that if the Watchtower Society had evidence of this anti-divine name debate, they would let the rest of us know about it.
The task of translating the bible does not allow for the insertion of what one thinks should be there. By inserting the divine name where it doesn't exist in our oldest, best texts, the Watchtower Society has perverted what was originally written to support their own doctrine.
Thanks for giving me another opportunity to expose the dishonesty of the Watchtower Society. Keep up the good work!
Voice Of Reason...Where was it written? In deut 6:13 as per Blue Letterbible.org.
Right. And in the original writings Deut 6:13 would contain the tetragrammaton. Translating that to Jehovah is arguable as well. Nice try.
Again, show where Jesus said the name Jehovah.
Please check a good, neutral reference book.
The meaning of Jesus' name is the same as Joshua's name.
It means 'Salvation or Help of Jehovah'.
If Jesus did not use God's name- which is a matter of historical fact- how does the Lord's prayer make sense?
Sanctify whose name?
When Jesus recited the prayer, was he praying to himself?
"Right. According to your works, you pick and choose what to follow and throw out some of the stuff Jehovah gives you as not needed.
Nice attitude. "
No, I just apply what fits to me and not to someone over in London.
Remember that Jehovah created us as individuals. We are not cookie cut out like the angels.
" Sheeplike said...
If Jesus did not use God's name- which is a matter of historical fact- how does the Lord's prayer make sense?
Sanctify whose name?
When Jesus recited the prayer, was he praying to himself?"
==================================
The historical fact is that there are no Greek texts that use the tetragramaton... none. Now, either you translate those texts as they were written or you lie about what was written. The Watchtower Society chose to lie in their 'translation' of the new testament.
For instance, if I were to say to you that "your name is synonymous with 'cult follower'", I would not have actually uttered your name but I would have addressed you directly. This is what Jesus did in His model prayer. He addressed God directly without actually saying his name.
Implying if Jesus didn't say God's name that He was praying to Himself is called a straw man argument and it is ridiculous! People address others all the time without naming them directly.
Your going to have to do better than this. What you need to do is find an early Greek text of the new testament that actually uses God's name. When you find it, then we can talk. Otherwise, you're just parroting the Watchtower Society... and we already have them beat with their own words.
"Blogger Voice of Reason said...
No, I just apply what fits to me and not to someone over in London."
=====================================
Christians are Christians no matter where they are. If you were in London would you be a different type of Jehovah's Witness? Would the teachings of the Christ have a different meaning if you lived next to the Thames?
Sigh... Voice of Reason, you've painted yourself into another corner. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that God has different standards for people depending on where they live! The real problem here is that you are stuck between the scriptures and what the Watchtower Society teaches. No one is asking you to give up Christianity here. All we're asking is that you take a realistic look into the scriptures and a realistic look into the history of the organization you belong to. Really, I think you are in the same situation as Saul of Tarsus. I believe you are sincere, but I also believe you are meant for a greater good.
"
Voice of Reason said...
"the governing body certainly likes to try to"
You are wrong.
You are wrong.
No, You are wrong.
Shawn:
"As it turns out, there are no Greek texts that use the tetragrammaton. There is no evidence that the divine name was removed from the Christian Greek scriptures."
I was not talking about Greek texts.
I was talking about the integrity of our lord and savior.
You can put your faith in your Greek texts. but I put my faith in the Lord and savior Jesus.
"Right. And in the original writings Deut 6:13 would contain the tetragrammaton. Translating that to Jehovah is arguable as well. Nice try.
Again, show where Jesus said the name Jehovah."
We are not saying that he said 'Jehovah', because the angel that spoke to Mary did not say 'Jesus', did he? The angel did not speak to her in English did he?
" Voice of Reason said...
Shawn:
"As it turns out, there are no Greek texts that use the tetragrammaton. There is no evidence that the divine name was removed from the Christian Greek scriptures."
I was not talking about Greek texts.
I was talking about the integrity of our lord and savior.
You can put your faith in your Greek texts. but I put my faith in the Lord and savior Jesus."
==================================
Excuse me, but the Greek texts we're talking about are the basis for the Christian faith. If you are interested in what was actually recorded, you will want to refer to the oldest, best texts that are available. The oldest, best texts of the new testament that are available in Greek do not use the divine name. That being the case, why did the Watchtower Society take liberties by inserting it into their 'translation' of the Bible? If you're truly concerned with the integrity of our lord and savior, then certainly you're concerned about the honesty of the translation of the Bible you reference.
The fact is that the Watchtower Society does not have a single person who is qualified to translate the original texts and yet they produced their own version of the scriptures.
The fact is that your faith is based on a dishonest rendering of the Bible that is published and promoted by the Watchtower Society. A translation that promotes, first and foremost, their own doctrine ahead of what was actually written.
A couple of years ago,when my personal JW was hospitalized, one of the pioneers came to to her hospital room get her report. (As if she had brought it with her.) The nurse told the pioneer not to disturb her as she'd had a bad night. The sister told the nurse:
"This [turning in her time slip] will make her feel much better"
and ignoring medical advise, walk right in and asked for it.
Many JWs came to visit over that week. Two brought cards, one a small plant and everyone left their out of date copies of WT & Awake magazines in the visiting rooms and on her bed table. I guess they were using her illness as an excuse to "place" them with the staff.
Voice of Reason said...
"
Voice of Reason said...
"the governing body certainly likes to try to"
You are wrong.
You are wrong.
No, You are wrong.
No, you are wrong.
Voice of Reason...We are not saying that he said 'Jehovah', because the angel that spoke to Mary did not say 'Jesus', did he? The angel did not speak to her in English did he?
Let me simplify this for you some more. Please show me where Jesus says the name of God specifically. Whether it be Yahweh, Jehovah, or anything else. You won't find it. He calls him Father, not a specific name. You will not find any honest Greek text indicating anything contrary.
Voice of Reason...You can put your faith in your Greek texts. but I put my faith in the Lord and savior Jesus.
How do you put faith in something or someone in which you have nothing supporting it. You choose to ignore Greek text which contain the oldest and most reliable writings on the Lord Jesus. What wriitngs or/and history are you basing your faith on then? Do you just make up what you want to believe?
Voice of Reason...We are not cookie cut out like the angels.
Angels are cookie cut out huh? That's pretty funny. You need to do some more research. There are different types of angels with different duties. Especially, to say the least the angel JW's believe is Jesus - Michael the Archangel. Are you sure you want to stand by that statement?
Why does everyone continue to feed into vor's stupid arguments and comments?
There are so many good comments here and none of them are from vor. Vor just picks things apart and contradicts itself, ALL THE TIME.
SO WHY EVEN GIVE VOR THE TIME OF DAY??
Sheeplike said:
"If Jesus did not use God's name- which is a matter of historical fact- how does the Lord's prayer make sense?
Sanctify whose name?
When Jesus recited the prayer, was he praying to himself? "
Don't confuse them with logic and reason. If they can't copy and paste from another site, they can't handle it.
Voice of Reason said... Don't confuse them with logic and reason. If they can't copy and paste from another site, they can't handle it.
That describes YOU to the letter. You're double talking and illogical in many of your posts. You really need professional help.
"Sigh... Voice of Reason, you've painted yourself into another corner. "
I didn't know this was an art studio.
"Nowhere in the Bible does it say that God has different standards for people depending on where they live! "
That was not the point.
The point was that you can not read something in the WT and then apply it to me.
"The real problem here is that you are stuck between the scriptures and what the Watchtower Society teaches."
I am not stuck anywhere.
Voice of Reason..."Don't confuse them with logic and reason. If they can't copy and paste from another site, they can't handle it."
An ad hominem attack? You're going to have to do better than that.
Sheeplike said:
"If Jesus did not use God's name- which is a matter of historical fact- how does the Lord's prayer make sense?
Sanctify whose name?
When Jesus recited the prayer, was he praying to himself? "
Don't confuse them with logic and reason. If they can't copy and paste from another site, they can't handle it.
"A couple of years ago,when my personal JW was hospitalized,"
I wish I had a personal JW.
Voice of Reason said...
"
Voice of Reason said...
"the governing body certainly likes to try to"
You are wrong.
You are wrong.
Anonymous then said.
No, You are wrong.
No, you are wrong.
Then I repeat
No, you are wrong
"Let me simplify this for you some more. Please show me where Jesus says the name of God specifically. Whether it be Yahweh, Jehovah, or anything else. You won't find it. He calls him Father, not a specific name. You will not find any honest Greek text indicating anything contrary. "
When he quoted from the Hebrew scriptures he would have quoted it using it.
"How do you put faith in something or someone in which you have nothing supporting it."
The integrity of the Christ is enough isn't it?
" You choose to ignore Greek text which contain the oldest and most reliable writings on the Lord Jesus. What wriitngs or/and history are you basing your faith on then? Do you just make up what you want to believe? "
Faith in Jesus is not about Greek texts.
"Angels are cookie cut out huh? That's pretty funny. You need to do some more research. There are different types of angels with different duties. Especially, to say the least the angel JW's believe is Jesus - Michael the Archangel. Are you sure you want to stand by that statement? "
Yes.
there are differnent types of angels. But they do not have individual personalities like we do.
"Voice of Reason..."Don't confuse them with logic and reason. If they can't copy and paste from another site, they can't handle it."
"An ad hominem attack? You're going to have to do better than that."
Well, it is so typical of apostaposers to copy and paste because they can't think for themselves.
Sheeplike said...
"If Jesus did not use God's name- which is a matter of historical fact- how does the Lord's prayer make sense? Sanctify whose name?
When Jesus recited the prayer, was he praying to himself?"
Sanctify whose name?
When Jesus recited the prayer, was he praying to himself?
The word “sanctify” or “hallowed” means to set apart as holy. So if we are to “sanctify” God’s name as holy, it would mean we are to treat Him with holiness and reverence in all of our acts of worship so that we reveal the person behind the name in all that we do. The focus is not on the actual literal name of God, but rather what we do and how we treat Him. Jesus taught his disciples to pray “Our Father. . .” instead of saying “Jehovah”. This is in harmony with people who are God’s sons that cry out “Abba! Father!” when they address Him. How would your father like it if you always addressed him by his first name instead of calling him “Daddy” or “Father”?
Looking at the family arrangment, do the children have equal authority as the parents? No. Does the fact that a parent is in a greater position of authority than their child, prove that one is inferior to the parent? Of course not. If it was the case, one can argue that a child is less human than their parent, because the child obeyed the parent’s rules. Being in a greater position of authority doesn’t make a person inherently better than someone else, does it? At Luke 2:51, the Bible says that Jesus was subject to Mary and Joseph. Does this mean that He was inferior to them?
Just as a son is no more or no less “human” than his father, so Jesus as God’s Son is no more or no less “God” than his Father is “God.” This is why the Jews endeavored to stone Jesus for blasphemy. They understood Jesus’ claim to be the “Son of God” as a claim that made Him “equal” in nature to the one and only true God. This is also why Jesus called the Father His “God” at John 20:17. His Father would always be His “God,” just as our human fathers will always be our “human” ancestors.
Because God in His very nature cannot be seen, tempted, nor physically die to pay for the sins of mankind, it was necessary for Jesus to add a human nature to His Divine person so that He could redeem mankind. Philippians 2:5-10 explains how Jesus continued to exist in God’s “form” (i.e., nature), but relinquished His right to enjoy equality with God so that He could limit Himself to the human nature he had adopted in order to redeem mankind. Thus, by adding a human dimension to His Divine person, Jesus became the visible “image of the invisible God” (Colossians 1:15).
Jesus is God, but not the Father. Jesus is not the same person as the Father, but yet possess God’s nature as the only true God. As the Son of God, Jesus is equal in nature to God the Father, but chose to be confined to the limitations of His humanity while on earth so that He could purchase mankind’s redemption. That is why as human Jesus stated that The Father is greater than he was due to Jesus’ present form.
In trying to explain away the Trinity some focus on the fact that the word “Trinity” is not found in the Bible. But does the actual word being present in the Bible serve as proof as to whether something exists or is factual? Are we to argue that the concept of a theocracy—in which God will rule mankind—is not Biblical just because the word “theocracy” is not found in the Bible?
Simply because the word “Trinity” is not found in the Bible does not prove that it is not a Biblical teaching. At Matthew 28:19, Jesus said: “Go therefore and make disciples… baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.…” Notice that in this verse, plurality within unity is indicated by the fact that the word “name” is in the singular form while the definite article “the” is placed in front of each of the persons: “…the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.…” The doctrine of the Trinity is not Modalism—the view that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all one person; nor is it Tritheism—the view that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are three separate Gods. Each member is separate and distinct in his personhood, yet they comprise the one God. Thus, in defining the Trinity doctrine, the Athanasian Creed states: “Neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Substance.…and yet they are not three Gods, but one God.”
Voice of Reason said...[Another attacking remark of a persons character which ignores the points made concerning the flaws and ingnorance in his beliefs and teachings].
Keep it up VoR, you're on a roll!
Ronde wrote: "because they can't think for themselves"
That's funny. You're a part of relgion that WON'T ALLOW you to think for yourself.
Leadership labels it "Independent Thinking" and it's considered evil.
Enjoy your cult meeting, tonight.
"That's funny. You're a part of relgion that WON'T ALLOW you to think for yourself. "
But it is the exjws that can not think for themselves because they just copy and paste from other sites.
Ronde wrote: "But it is the exjws that can not think for themselves because they just copy and paste from other sites."
I've read many things on this site that are not copied from other sites. Many personal experiences, like the ones from Kimmy Jo, whose child was molested and nothing was done about it.
But then again, why would Ronde care. The same person who put the full blame on the victims of child abuse and their parents! OMG
Ronde, your contributions to this web-blog have not helped your cause.
In reading what you have wrote over the past few months, I'm very concerned about your mental stability.
I really believe that you are not a well person. Please seek help before you harm yourself.
Old news.
This was a talk in the 2006 District convention.
Didn't you pay attention?
Voice of Reason seek professional help immediately. You probably are suffering from schizophrenia or multiple personality disorder. You need a psychiatrist and probably need to take medications. You're double talking, illogical and almost incoherent. You are mentally unstable.
I sure hope this is not a result of being a part of the Watchtower Society for too long.
http://www.jwfacts.com/index_files/5min.htm
Well written response.
One caveat, if you will allow me:
The 144,000 are the only ones who will go to heaven and rule with Christ, the rest will “live forever in paradise on earth as perfect beings.”
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