The November 15th, 2008 Watchtower admits that some witnesses left the organization because of their teachings.
In the page from the Watchtower posted above, paragraph 10 says:
Some may have left God's flock because they did not agree with some Scriptural
teaching. The Israelites freed from Egyptian bondage "forgot [God's] works" on their behalf
and "did not wait for his counsel." (Ps. 106:13) It may be helpful to remind an inactive
one that "the faithful and discreet slave" is dispensing excellent spiritual food. (Matt. 24:45)
That is how the person originally learned the truth. So why should he not be determined to walk in the truth again? -2 John 4. (This is a point that they still do not get and they think that people do not know it. They do not now, nor have they ever, taught the truth!)
Paragraph 11 says:
When endeavoring to help those who have strayed from God's flock, the elder
might refer to the disciples who abandoned Jesus because of rejecting one of his teachings. (John 6:53, 66) (Yeah, well when Jesus himself teaches me something, I will entertain the thought.)
By cutting off association with Christ and his faithful followers, they lost their spirituality and their joy. Have those who stopped associating with the Christian congregation found another place where there is rich spiritual food? No, for there is none! (Wrong again, Watchtower. There is freedom, happiness, joy and a satisfying life without the Watchtower and its constantly changing teachings and its billions of man made rules!)
88 comments:
article states,
"By cutting off association with Christ and his faithful followers, they lost their spirituality and
their joy."
I say,
That is a ridiculous statement!
Leaving the Watchtower is in no way the same as "cutting off assoc. with Christ". One does not "lose spirituality or joy" by leaving the Watchtower either!! CONTRARY, I have FOUND these things since leaving and feel even closer to Christ!!
"Some may have left God's flock because they did not agree with some Scriptural teaching."
This implies that people leave because they disagree with the scriptures. They completely ignore the people who leave because of the Watchtower Society's unscriptural teachings and policies... like the ban on vaccines, organ transplants, blood transfusions, disfellowshipping and beards... some of which were over-turned only after many faithful JWs died.
Or, it could be that those who have left have realized that the Watchtower Society uses cult control techniques on its members.
Or maybe they left because they realized that the New World Translation is dishonest version of the bible.
It could be that people left because they found out that one of the Watchtower Society's key dates 607 B.C.E, was not the year the temple in Jerusalem was destroyed.
Maybe they left because they realized that the governing body has put itself between Jehovah's Witnesses and Christ.
Really, there are so many reasons to leave the Watchtower Society's organization, that disagreeing with what is in the scriptures is pretty low on the list.
Maybe the numbers are down and this is how the Watchtower is trying to explain to the flock about the decline in numbers.
This is an excellent example of the fear tactics used by cults. This one is called 'Exit Phobia'. They warn their current members that everything OUTSIDE the cult is bad, evil, unhappy.
Talk with any Apostate and they will tell you how overjoyed they are to have left a mind-control organization.
I did not leave them, but they disfellowshiped me because I reasoned, using the Scriptures before and after meetings to prove false some WT-ideas. I love my brothers and sisters and I want to help them in every matter when it is possible. True christians are known by their love. Intrestingly the 15 dec 2008 warns about apostates, because they can apeare to be generous.(the article with highligths from Jude)
"Interestingly the 15 dec 2008 warns about apostates, because they can appear to be generous.(the article with highlights from Jude)"
So the article says they need to fear the generosity of apostates? That's really setting in the fear!
Ha,Ha,Ha
You people are soooooo Ignorant !!!!!
Anonymous said... Ha,Ha,Ha
You people are soooooo Ignorant !!!!!
Reading the comments from this blog post shows anything but ignorance. It reads from enlightened people who have done the research and investigation of the Watchtower Society and refuses to ignore the past and present fallings of an organization the claims exclusive rights to God's approval and blessings.
These are thinking and discerning individuals who do not just go along with whether an organization wants to interpret as truth.
Btw, "Ha, Ha, Ha" is not a strong argument to the contrary.
"Interestingly the 15 dec 2008 warns about apostates, because they can appear to be generous.(the article with highlights from Jude)"
First of all that statement is making the JW extra suspicious and fearfull. So does that mean that if an apostate were to invite one in for coffee and bible discussion one should be worried about the coffee? Ha, stupid reasoning.
Everyone should be warned about the apparent generosity of the JW's because it is not without an ulterior motive. They are doing what they are suppose to do, it is not sincere. So beware of THEIR generosity, it is a snare and a racket!
Ronde (alias VOR) admitted, "I don't trust them [the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses] for any explanation. I have said that over and over. Come on."
That's very interesting what Ronde (alias Voice of Reason) said about not trusting the GB. Why?
Well, look at what the GB teaches its members below. It states that they review EVERYTHING to ensure it represents the "truth" and 'faithfully follows the Bible'.
"The Watchtower and Awake!: Champions of Truth"
"15 The “faithful and discreet slave” class, the “watchman,” today uses the Watchtower magazine under the direction of the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses as its main channel for dispensing spiritual “food at the proper time.”
18... Each article in both The Watchtower and Awake! and every page, including the artwork, is scrutinized by selected members of the Governing Body before it is printed. They spend many hours in researching the Bible and other reference material to make sure that what is written is the truth and that it faithfully follows the Scriptures."
Hmmm, looks like Ronde (alias VOR) has exposed himself as a rebellious JW!
One more step Ronde and you'll be an exJW. What do you think of that?
Jehovah's Witnesses have the true religions.
Those that disagree do not know Jehovah's Witnesses.
Shawn,
You are wrong.
There were no bans on vaccinations or organ transplants.
We covered that already, Can't you read?
And blood transfusions are bad medicine and against God's law.
And nothing prohibiting beards except that they look bad.
anon misquoted me in saying
Ronde (alias VOR) admitted, "I don't trust them [the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses] for any explanation. I have said that over and over. Come on."
Well. the truth of the teachings of Jehovah's Witnesses stand on its own and we don't need to be concerned about the FDS.
Be one of Jehovah's Witnesses because it is the true religion not because of the FDS.
VOR (alias Ronde) claims: "Jehovah's Witnesses have the true religion."
However, he also stated: "I don't trust them [the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses] for any explanation. I have said that over and over."
You decide for yourself the mental stability of Ronde.
VOR (alias Ronde) stated: "Those that disagree do not know Jehovah's Witnesses."
Ronde, I prefere to let the reader decide for themselves whether they know JW's:
www.silentlambs.org
www.jwfacts.com
www.freeminds.org
www.sixscreensofthewatchtower.com
VOR (alias Ronde) stated: "Those that disagree do not know Jehovah's Witnesses."
Ronde, I prefere to let the reader decide for themselves whether they know JW's:
www.silentlambs.org
www.jwfacts.com
www.freeminds.org
www.sixscreensofthewatchtower.com
VOR (alias Ronde) replied: "anon misquoted me in saying
Ronde (alias VOR) admitted, "I don't trust them [the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses] for any explanation. I have said that over and over. Come on."
Not true Ronde. When the words are are surrounded by quotes, that's a direct quote. You said and I quote again:
"I don't trust them [the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses] for any explanation. I have said that over and over. Come on."
Then you said: "Well. the truth of the teachings of Jehovah's Witnesses stand on its own and we don't need to be concerned about the FDS."
However, that's NOT what JW's are taught. Please reread this, direct quote from the GB: "The “faithful and discreet slave” class, the “watchman,” today uses the Watchtower magazine under the direction of the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses as its main channel for dispensing spiritual “food at the proper time.”
Where does it say that JW's don't need to be concerned about the FDS?
I think this is so simple, it might be 2nd Grade level stuff.
With no FDS, there are no JWs. That simple.
The leadership of the religion interpret Scripture and define the "current" teachings.
Anyone not keeping in step with the "current" Truth is not a JW.
Is this really so complicated, Ronde?
Voice of Reason said...
You are wrong.
There were no bans on vaccinations or organ transplants.
Response...
No, you are wrong:
"Vaccination is a direct violation of the everlasting covenant that God made with Noah after the flood.... Vaccination never saved human life. It does not prevent smallpox." -- The Golden Age (predecessor to Awake!), Feb. 4, 1931
"When there is a diseased or defective organ, the usual way health is restored is by taking in nutrients. The body uses the food eaten to repair or heal the organ, gradually replacing the cells. When men of science conclude that this normal process will no longer work and they suggest removing the organ and replacing it directly with an organ from another human, this is simply a shortcut. Those who submit to such operations are thus living off the flesh of another human. That is cannibalistic. However, in allowing man to eat animal flesh Jehovah God did not grant permission for humans to try to perpetuate their lives by cannibalistically taking into their bodies human flesh, whether chewed or in the form of whole organs or body parts taken from others." (The Watchtower, Nov. 15, 1967, p. 702)
Voice of Reason said...We covered that already, Can't you read?
Response...Can you?
Voice of Reason said...And blood transfusions are bad medicine and against God's law.
Response...That's a straw man argument "bad medicine". Whether or not blood transfusions are bad medicine has not a thing to do with the matter at hand. As for it is against God's law, then if the penalty for violating God's Law on blood requires the death of the person, why did Jehovah let the Israelite people who violated His Blood Law live at 1 Samuel 14:31-34? If God intended His command to "abstain...from blood" in Acts 15:28-29 to apply to human blood transfusions (rather than just prohibiting the eating of blood from sacrificial animals), why is there no mention of blood transfusions anywhere in the Bible? When we consider the fact that evidence exists for the practice of blood being transferred from a healthy person to an old or sick person as early as "two thousand years before Christ," why is Scripture silent about this practice and only mentions the physical eating of blood?
Voice of Reason said...And nothing prohibiting beards except that they look bad.
If you have a beard you would be restricted in receiving responsibilites and assignments in the congregation. If it is not applied in your KH, fine - However, ask any Elder, Ministreal Servant, Pioneer, and many other JWs. They know beards are not permitted.
" Voice of Reason said...
Shawn,
You are wrong.
There were no bans on vaccinations or organ transplants.
We covered that already, Can't you read?
And blood transfusions are bad medicine and against God's law.
And nothing prohibiting beards except that they look bad."
==================================
I'm sure we covered this subject before, but apparently you were the one who wasn't reading. Here's the run-down for ya'...
Vaccines
"Vaccination is a direct violation of the holy law of Jehovah God" - The Golden Age, 1935-APR-24, Page 471
"Vaccination is a direct violation of the everlasting covenant that God made with Noah after the flood." - The Golden Age, 1931-JAN-4, Page 293.
---------------------------------
Organ Transplants
*** w67 11/15 p. 702 Questions From Readers ***
Among savages the practice is found of giving a sick man some blood to drink drawn from the veins of a relative.” Some might argue that therapeutic practices involved in modern organ transplant operations are more scientific than such primitive treatment. Nonetheless, it is evident that men practicing medicine have not been beyond using treatments that amount to cannibalism if such have been thought justified.
***
---------------------------------
Beards
*** w98 1/1 p. 4 The Truth Transforms Lives ***
A Bible study was started with him, and as Bible truth began to affect his heart, the changes he made were visible to all. One of the first evidences of his change was that he cut short his long hair and shaved off his straggly beard.
***
*** w95 5/1 p. 24 Perseverance Leads to Progress ***
I showed him what the Bible had to say, and to my joyful surprise, the next day he called me over to watch as he broke his pipe and lighter along with his crucifix, destroyed his pornographic films, and shaved off his beard. A changed man in a matter of minutes!
***
That's right... get rid of your porn and your beard.
*** w89 9/15 p. 32 “There Was the God I Had Been Looking For” ***
The young Spaniard was a drug user, with a beard and long hair. However, after the young man received the book, there was a remarkable transformation in the lad. He shaved off his beard, cut his hair, and stopped using drugs. Learning this, Edwin was eager to meet him.
***
Drugs and beards go hand in hand.
*** w75 8/15 p. 501 par. 9 Do Not Let Yourself Be Ensnared by Fads and Entertainment ***
Not wanting to be responsible for even one person’s being stumbled so as to miss the way to everlasting life, this new Kingdom publisher shaved off his beard.
***
Beards kill.
*** w56 7/15 p. 444 The President’s Visit to Singapore and Thailand ***
After reading a single tract this brother’s eyes were opened. He soon shaved his beard, cut his long hair and removed his flowing robes and quit using his “miraculous” powers
***
*** be study 15 p. 133 par. 1 Good Personal Appearance ***
For men, a neat personal appearance may include being clean-shaven. In areas where mustaches are widely viewed as dignified, any who wear these should keep them neatly trimmed.
***
Notice that the guideline is clean-shaven or a mustache, beards are not included as being something that could be viewed as 'dignified'.
---------------------------------
Blood transfusions
"Every three seconds someone needs blood. Blood and blood products are used to treat accident and burn victims, cancer patients and other patients undergoing surgeries and medical treatments. "
- http://www.bloodtransfusion.com/facts.asp
"Each year, almost 5 million Americans need a blood transfusion. "
-national Heart, Lung and Blood Institute
Blood transfusions are merely another type of tissue transplant, like organ transplants. Far from being 'bad medicine', blood transfusions save millions of lives a year - which is the whole point of medicine.
The prohibition in the Bible is against eating blood.
*** w03 2/15 p. 15 par. 18 Why Observe the Lord’s Evening Meal? ***
Eating human flesh and drinking blood would be cannibalism, a violation of God’s law. (Genesis 9:3, 4; Leviticus 17:10)
***
Cannibalism is a violation of God's law. Organ transplants are no longer considered cannibalism because the recipient is not eating human flesh. Why then is another type of tissue transplant, blood, considered a violation of God's law? It's just another example of the Watchtower Society's arbitrary policies that cause it's members serious harm.
I just love it when VOR's (alias Ronde) own literature proves him a liar. The spin that Ronde puts on these embarrassing comments in the Watchtower is the epitome of denial.
It's why I left... teachings from the GB that proved unscriptural. So, the GB stumbled me out of their religion.
"VOR (alias Ronde) claims: "Jehovah's Witnesses have the true religion."'
However, he also stated: "I don't trust them [the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses] for any explanation. I have said that over and over.""
That is because the religion of Jehovah's Witnesses is not dependant upon the governing body. The religion of Jehovah's Witnesses exists because of Jehovah and his word. The GB leads the congregations, not the religion.
Anon.
None of those site you listed have accurate information about Jehovah's Witnesses.
All they do is have copies of the Watchtower and other publications. That does not represent JWs.
Afterall, I don't base my beliefs on publications, I base it on the Bible.
And those sites just talk about people.
"However, that's NOT what JW's are taught. Please reread this, direct quote from the GB: "The “faithful and discreet slave” class, the “watchman,” today uses the Watchtower magazine under the direction of the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses as its main channel for dispensing spiritual “food at the proper time.”
Where does it say that JW's don't need to be concerned about the FDS?
"
The fact that I am a JW and am not concerned about it. What more does one need?
"Vaccination is a direct violation of the everlasting covenant that God made with Noah after the flood..."
That is not a ban.
"(The Watchtower, Nov. 15, 1967, p. 702)"
That also is not a ban.
"If you have a beard you would be restricted in receiving responsibilites and assignments in the congregation. If it is not applied in your KH, fine - However, ask any Elder, Ministreal Servant, Pioneer, and many other JWs. They know beards are not permitted. "
Sure, because that is the prerogative of those overseeing the congregation and because the congregation itself would not accept them.
"It's why I left... teachings from the GB that proved unscriptural. So, the GB stumbled me out of their religion. "
So what does the GB have to do with the religion of Jehovah's Witnesses?
VOR (alias Ronde) said: "That is because the religion of Jehovah's Witnesses is not dependant upon the governing body. The religion of Jehovah's Witnesses exists because of Jehovah and his word. The GB leads the congregations, not the religion."
Is that the same GB that you said:
"I don't trust them [the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses] for any explanation. I have said that over and over. Come on." ?
VOR (alias Ronde): "That is because the religion of Jehovah's Witnesses is not dependant upon the governing body."
Your religion is the current interpretations of your Governing Body. If you don't know that, you are NOT one of JW's.
VOR (alias Ronde) said: "So what does the GB have to do with the religion of Jehovah's Witnesses?"
If you were one of JW's, you would not be asking that question.
VOR (alias Ronde) stated: "Sure, because that is the prerogative of those overseeing the congregation and because the congregation itself would not accept them."
Where is the scriptural support for this position of the congregation and btw, where did they get this directive from to begin with - was it not the GB of your religion?
VOR (alias Ronde) replied: "The fact that I am a JW and am not concerned about it. What more does one need?"
You are NOT one of JW's Ronde - you only pretend to be one because your life is upside-down, isn't it?
No, you are NOT a JW. But, you ARE very confused Ronde. Look, there are counselors that can help you. Perhaps you were brought up in this religion and you are so confused because of all those erroneous teachings of your sect.
Look, there's no harm in seeking counsel... it can help you.
VOR (alias Ronde) said: "None of those site you listed have accurate information about Jehovah's Witnesses."
Actually, these sites have caused many thinking people to see the way that the GB has protected its image despite all of the false predictions, errors in interpretion and misleading statements. And, a history full of mistakes!
Your opinion is not what matters here Ronde, nor is mine.
Let the JW reader start with:
www.jwfacts.com
be study 15 p. 133 par. 1
Good Personal Appearance
"For men, a neat personal appearance may include being clean-shaven. In areas where mustaches are widely viewed as dignified, any who wear these should keep them neatly trimmed."
Nowhere in print does the organization say beards are 'outlawed'. It all depends on local custom. I know for a fact that their are servants with beards in different countries. In certain places, Witness
women are topless because that is what all the women in those areas do.
This is just one example of the inventive misquoting done by detractors!
Oh my goodness, you shouldn't have told Ronde about the topless girls...
He'll move there... I know he will.
Ronde said: "None of those site you listed have accurate information about Jehovah's Witnesses."
One thing is good Ronde, that you are reading all these sites... they will help you in the long run.
www.jwfacts.com
www.silentlambs.org
www.freeminds.org
www.sixscreensofthewatchtower.com
And, there's plenty more when you finish with those.
Just do a search "Jehovah's Witnesses" in your Internet search engine.
" Sheeplike said...
be study 15 p. 133 par. 1
Good Personal Appearance
"For men, a neat personal appearance may include being clean-shaven. In areas where mustaches are widely viewed as dignified, any who wear these should keep them neatly trimmed."
Nowhere in print does the organization say beards are 'outlawed'. It all depends on local custom. I know for a fact that their are servants with beards in different countries. In certain places, Witness
women are topless because that is what all the women in those areas do.
This is just one example of the inventive misquoting done by detractors!"
==================================
I think it's telling that you say "Nowhere in print does the organization say...". That's because you know as well as the rest of us that if a brother grows a beard, he won't get and/or loose privileges in the hall. It's true that in places with extreme weather, the brothers have beards, but for the most part, the Society discourages beards with peer pressure. It's another example of the Watchtower Society enforcing uniformity as a means of control.
Voice of Reason said...The GB leads the congregations, not the religion.
In Chrisitan congregations, Jesus leads the congregations.
Voice of Reason...The fact that I am a JW and am not concerned about it. What more does one need?
One needs more than than just the opinions and decisions of you. Neither you not the Governing body has any right to make decisions for others.
Voice of reason...None of those site you listed have accurate information about Jehovah's Witnesses.
So, *you* claim. I claim they do. Everyone else should see and decide for themselves.
Voice of Reason said...And those sites just talk about people.
So, what do you have left exactly? If the people do not matter to you and the Governing Body does not matter to you, what does matter; their version of the Bible? You make no sense.
You are slow.
This is from a talk from the 2007 District Convention on Help ones return to the Flock.
"That's because you know as well as the rest of us that if a brother grows a beard, he won't get and/or loose privileges in the hall. It's true that in places with extreme weather, the brothers have beards, but for the most part, the Society discourages beards with peer pressure. It's another example of the Watchtower Society enforcing uniformity as a means of control."
And that is a problem... how?
It is not the Watchtower Society that enforces anything.
It is that the congregation and the public ministry would not view the person as a minister.
Beards are not viewed well by society in general.
"In Chrisitan congregations, Jesus leads the congregations. "
Oh really?
Then how does this Jesus communicate with the congregations?
Jesus does take the lead but that is by appointing older men to lead in the congregations. He delegates.
" Voice of Reason said...
"Vaccination is a direct violation of the everlasting covenant that God made with Noah after the flood..."
That is not a ban.
"(The Watchtower, Nov. 15, 1967, p. 702)"
That also is not a ban.
"If you have a beard you would be restricted in receiving responsibilites and assignments in the congregation. If it is not applied in your KH, fine - However, ask any Elder, Ministreal Servant, Pioneer, and many other JWs. They know beards are not permitted. "
Sure, because that is the prerogative of those overseeing the congregation and because the congregation itself would not accept them."
=================================
Let's look at other matters that the Watchtower Society says are in 'direct violation' of God's law and see if your claim that being in direct violation is not the same as a ban. Here are some examples from the Watchtower Society's publications siting 'direct violations' paired with list of disfellowshipping offenses given to elders in the 'Pay Attention to the Flock' book.
*** w03 12/1 p. 20 Do You Always Need a Bible Command? ***
Yet, even without a direct law, Joseph perceived that adultery was a sin not only against his own conscience but also “against God.” (Genesis 39:9) Evidently, Joseph recognized that adultery was in violation of God’s thinking and will, as expressed in Eden.—Genesis 2:24.
***
Pay Attention...
"Sexual misconduct, including adultery, fornication, and
other forms of `por.nei'a . "
*** w91 4/1 p. 21 par. 7 A Pure Language for All Nations ***
They bowed down to the sun and the moon and the constellations of the zodiac, which was in direct violation of God’s law. (Deuteronomy 4:19; 2 Kings 23:5)
***
Pay Attention...
"The practice of spiritism . (Deut . 18 :9-13 ; 1 Cor . 10 :
21, 22 ; Gal . 5 :20)"
*** w86 2/15 p. 25 True Worship Triumphs ***
Why was usury wrong?
This was in direct violation of Jehovah’s law. (Leviticus 25:36; Deuteronomy 23:19) “The hundredth,” if exacted monthly, would amount to 12 percent per year. (5:11) The people already were in dire straits due to famine and heavy Persian taxation. (5:3, 4) Yet the rich heartlessly imposed high interest upon their poor brothers.
***
Pay Attention...
"Stealing, thievery, fraud . (Lev. 6 :2, 4 ; 1 Cor. 6 :9, 10 ;
Eph. 4 :28 ; it-1 p . 870)"
*** w72 10/1 p. 585 Do You Look to Science for a Better World? ***
. Ignoring the God they claimed to represent, they were bowing down in worship to the sun in the sky! This was in direct violation of God’s command at Deuteronomy 4:15-19.
***
Pay Attention...
"Apostasy .
Apostasy is a standing away from, a falling away, defec-
tion, rebellion, abandonment ; it involves teaching false
doctrines, supporting or promoting false religion and its
holidays or interfaith activities. (Deut . 13 :13, 15 ; Josh.
22 :22, ftn . ; Acts 21 :21, ftn. ; 2 Cor. 6 :14, 15, 17, 18 ;
2 John 7, 9, 10 ; Rev . 18 :4)"
*** w70 10/15 p. 612 “The Truth Will Set You Free” ***
Although such adoration of images is fostered by the Catholic church, the Bible is unyielding in its denunciation of it. It is a direct violation of the second of the Ten Commandments, “You must not make for yourself a carved image . . . You must not bow down to them.” (Ex. 20:4, 5) In equally plain speech, the Christian apostle Paul exhorts: “Flee from idolatry.”—1 Cor. 10:14.
***
Pay Attention...
"Idolatry . (1 Cor. 6 :9, 10 : 10 :14)
Idolatry includes the possession and use of images
and pictures that are employed in false religion ."
*** w67 12/1 p. 720 par. 4 By Man’s Way or by God’s Way—Which? ***
4 However, as a further justification for their course, what do medics claim? This, that transfusion is not a feeding of blood to a patient and hence is not a violation of God’s law. But really this is unscientific reasoning. For the very reason that the transfused material is not taken directly into the mouth to go through the regular digestive processes of the body, the transfusion method becomes the quickest and most direct way of feeding the body on what is forbidden by God’s law stated to Noah and reaffirmed by the Christian Council of Jerusalem.
***
Pay Attention...
"Failure to abstain from blood . (Gen . 9 :4 ; Acts 15 :20,
28,29)"
Every instance of a matter being in direct violation of God's law has a place on the list of reasons why a person can be disfellowshipped. The case of vaccines being in direct violation of God's law constitutes a ban.
Now, on to your reasoning about the ban on beards...
"that is the prerogative of those overseeing the congregation"
Not only do the overseers of the congregation not have scriptural support for this 'prerogative', they are specifically prohibited from assuming such control in 2 Corinthians 1:23-24.
"23 Now I call upon God as a witness against my own soul that it is to spare YOU that I have not yet come to Corinth. 24 Not that we are the masters over YOUR faith, but we are fellow workers for YOUR joy, for it is by [YOUR] faith that YOU are standing."
VoR, I suspect the reason that you don't offer support for your claims is because you can't find any. Time after time, your claims are shot down using the Watchtower Society's publications.
" Voice of Reason said...
"In Chrisitan congregations, Jesus leads the congregations. "
Oh really?"
===================================
Yes, really.
(Colossians 1:13-20) 13 He delivered us from the authority of the darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of the Son of his love, 14 by means of whom we have our release by ransom, the forgiveness of our sins. 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him. 17 Also, he is before all [other] things and by means of him all [other] things were made to exist, 18 and he is the head of the body, the congregation. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that he might become the one who is first in all things; 19 because [God] saw good for all fullness to dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile again to himself all [other] things by making peace through the blood [he shed] on the torture stake, no matter whether they are the things upon the earth or the things in the heavens.
***
(Ephesians 1:19-23) . . ., 20 with which he has operated in the case of the Christ when he raised him up from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above every government and authority and power and lordship and every name named, not only in this system of things, but also in that to come. 22 He also subjected all things under his feet, and made him head over all things to the congregation, 23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills up all things in all.
***
No where in the Bible does it say that Jesus 'delegates' his responsibility as head of the Christian congregation.
VOICE OF REASON:
"There were no bans on vaccinations or organ transplants.We covered that already, Can't you read?"
Listen, Voice, I was raised in the "Truth" and when I was ready for kindergarten (in the 1940s) the school board would not allow me to attend because my Jehovah's Witnesses parents refused to have me vaccinated based on the Watchtower's repeated statements that "Vaccination is a direct violation of the everlasting covenant that God made". (GA 02/04/31)
This is a real life experience share with other children of JWs. If you still can't believe this, you can (1) go to the KH library and look it up, and (2) ask some 60-80 year old JWs who were raised in the truth if at one time vaccinations were considered "unscriptural".
"Voice of Reason said...
"That's because you know as well as the rest of us that if a brother grows a beard, he won't get and/or loose privileges in the hall. It's true that in places with extreme weather, the brothers have beards, but for the most part, the Society discourages beards with peer pressure. It's another example of the Watchtower Society enforcing uniformity as a means of control."
And that is a problem... how?
It is not the Watchtower Society that enforces anything.
It is that the congregation and the public ministry would not view the person as a minister.
Beards are not viewed well by society in general."
=================================
The direction given to the congregations comes directly from the Watchtower Society.
*** be study 15 p. 133 par. 1 Good Personal Appearance ***
For men, a neat personal appearance may include being clean-shaven. In areas where mustaches are widely viewed as dignified, any who wear these should keep them neatly trimmed.
***
Society in general doesn't care if someone has a beard. It has less to do with public appearance and more to do with the Watchtower Society's control techniques.
"Jehovah's Witnesses have the true religions." (VOR)
Who told you that?
Was it [A] from WATCHTOWER literature?
[B] Did you learn it at the Kingdom Hall where the WATCHTOWER'S agenda is used exclusively?
[C] Was it from Jehovah's Witnesses who are taught that the WATCHTOWER is Jehovah's sole "channel of communication)?
[D] Did you read it in the WATCHTOWER'S own doctored version of the bible?
Do you notice something every one of those ways you might have learned that JWs have "the truth" have one thing common--the WATCHTOWER.
No matter how many sources you hear that "JWs have the truth" from, it all has one (1!) source--and that source is the Governing Body of the WATCHTOWER.
"I was raised in the "Truth" and when I was ready for kindergarten (in the 1940s) the school board would not allow me to attend because my Jehovah's Witnesses parents refused to have me vaccinated based on the Watchtower's repeated statements that "Vaccination is a direct violation of the everlasting covenant that God made". (GA 02/04/31)"
The GA is not the Watchtower.
And that was your parents' choice
and not the position of Jehovah's Witnesses then or now.
Hey Shawn,
If you like blood transfusions, why don't you get one?
If you like beards, why doesn't that picture of you have one?
""Jehovah's Witnesses have the true religions." (VOR)
"Who told you that?
Was it [A] from WATCHTOWER literature?"
Nope. It was studying various Bibles and religions.
"[B] Did you learn it at the Kingdom Hall where the WATCHTOWER'S agenda is used exclusively?"
Nope. It was from debating many others and finding that we are right.
"[C] Was it from Jehovah's Witnesses who are taught that the WATCHTOWER is Jehovah's sole "channel of communication)?"
Nope, it was from the fact that the non-Jws do not have the truth.
"[D] Did you read it in the WATCHTOWER'S own doctored version of the bible?"
Nope. It was from using various bibles.
"Do you notice something every one of those ways you might have learned that JWs have "the truth" have one thing common--the WATCHTOWER."
Nope, then how did I learn it?
"No matter how many sources you hear that "JWs have the truth" from, it all has one (1!) source--and that source is the Governing Body of the WATCHTOWER."
What about me who does not learn from the GB of the WT.
VoR, please share those drugs with us. That must be some good stuff.
I would like to attend your Kingdom Hall. It sounds like my type of congregation. One where I can follow the Bible and not be disfellowshipped.
May I have the address of this Super Special Differen Kingdom Hall that Doesn't Follow the Prescious Slave/Governing Body?
voice of reason...And that was your parents' choice
and not the position of Jehovah's Witnesses then or now.
Voice of Reason, please seek professional help immediately. You probably are suffering from schizophrenia or multiple personality disorder. You need a psychiatrist and probably medication. In many of your comments, you're double talking, illogical and almost incoherent at times. You are mentally unstable.
I sure hope this is not a result of being a part of Jehovah’s Witnesses for too long.
" Voice of Reason said...
Hey Shawn,
If you like blood transfusions, why don't you get one?
If you like beards, why doesn't that picture of you have one?"
===================================
These a both really demented points. No one goes out and gets a blood transfusion for fun any more than someone gets chemotherapy for fun. It's a medical procedure, not a hobby.
Secondly, I never said I liked beards. I said that the Watchtower Society dictates arbitrary restrictions on its members.
Voice of Reason said...
""Jehovah's Witnesses have the true religions." (VOR)
"Who told you that?
Was it [A] from WATCHTOWER literature?"
Nope. It was studying various Bibles and religions.
If you studied those various bibles and religions as poorly as you studied the doctrines of the Watchtower Society, then your conclusion that you have 'the truth' is pretty arbitrary.
"[B] Did you learn it at the Kingdom Hall where the WATCHTOWER'S agenda is used exclusively?"
Nope. It was from debating many others and finding that we are right.
But you don't say how you know you're right. All you do is make up your own policies that are not in line with what Jehovah's Witnesses believe. Your comments on this blog show that you are one of Jehovah's Witnesses in name only.
"[C] Was it from Jehovah's Witnesses who are taught that the WATCHTOWER is Jehovah's sole "channel of communication)?"
Nope, it was from the fact that the non-Jws do not have the truth.
More circular reasoning from the 'voice'. On top of that, this is a bifurcated argument. Even if non-JWs do not have 'the truth', it doesn't automatically mean that the Watchtower Society does. If you have two people making two different statements...
person 1) "1 + 1 = 8"
Person one is clearly wrong, but you can't say person 2 is right until you hear what they have to say. If person 2 says
person 2) "From the death of Jacob to the death of Christ.-1845 years,-- is the measure of the first or twelve tribe dispensation: From the death of Christ in the Spring of A. D. 33, until the Spring of A. D. 1878, is the measure of the second-another period of 1845 years. -The two dispensations are equal in length, the second beginning where the first ends, at the cross, or death of Christ. That was the meeting place or point of reconciliation
between God and man, "reconciled to God by the death of
his Son:“-Rom. v. 10. Hence Christ is our “Mercy Seat.”
The two cherubim made “of one measure and one size” (1
Kines vi. 25.) placed with wings extended on either side of the
mercy seat, illustrate the equality of the two dispensations.
Types are exact, for being a feature of the law, they must be
fulfilled even to the jots and tittles. Hence though in some re-
spects the dispensations lap, there is a feature in which they do
not lap, or that part of the law would not be a perfect shadow.
The wonderful equality in the substance of these dispensations as well as in various measures is familiar to you.
From the death of Jacob to the birth of Christ is equal to the
period from the death of Christ to the Autumn of A. D. 1844.
each being 1811 1/2 years. Each of these points was marked by
an important event in reference to the coming of the Lord.
The tarrying of Jesus for 30 years before his baptism and
entrance on the harvest work. has its parallel in the tarrying
time between 1844 and 1874, at which later point the harvest
of the Gospel dispensation began. Christ’s personal ministry
of 3 1/2 years, ending at his death, has its parallel in the 3 1/2
years of harvest from the Autumn of 1874 until the Spring of
1878."
Then both people would be dead wrong.
"[D] Did you read it in the WATCHTOWER'S own doctored version of the bible?"
Nope. It was from using various bibles.
Which bibles were those? Because if you compare an intellectually honest translation like the Oxford Annotated Bible to the New World Translation, then you'll see huge discrepancies... and it just happens that the discrepancies in the NWT support the doctrine of the Watchtower Society.
"Do you notice something every one of those ways you might have learned that JWs have "the truth" have one thing common--the WATCHTOWER."
Nope, then how did I learn it?
Finally, a good question from VoR! We all want to know where you got your beliefs because they aren't what Jehovah's Witnesses believe.
"No matter how many sources you hear that "JWs have the truth" from, it all has one (1!) source--and that source is the Governing Body of the WATCHTOWER."
What about me who does not learn from the GB of the WT.
What about you? What about Buddhists or Hindus? They didn't learn from the GB either, but then, they don't claim to be JWs either.
Let's face it VoR, you're completely disingenuous. I don't really believe that you believe the drivel you post on this blog. I bet you go to the Watchtower study and recite the answers that the Watchtower Society feeds you in the study articles like a good little sheep. If not, then you should join us in your dissent.
Thank you Shawn! You really said it all regarding Ronde. I still believe he is very disturbed and needs professional help.
the 'truth' says you can't go to college. oops, the 'truth' says you can go to college. oops, too many graduates realized how unethical and unresearched the publications are, study a little further and decide to leave...so the 'truth' told them not to go to college and get back on that career as a janitor.
stay sad in depressed in this world so the jws can keep their membership numbers up.
http://www.njvaccinationchoice.org/
"the 'truth' says you can't go to college. oops, the 'truth' says you can go to college. "
No one said one can't or can. It is a personal choice. Always has been, always will be.
The philosophy is: Do what you want, but do what is wise.
"oops, too many graduates realized how unethical and unresearched the publications are, study a little further and decide to leave...so the 'truth' told them not to go to college and get back on that career as a janitor."
Not true. That means that the "Witness" was not a real Witness in the first place if they leave the faith because of criticism of the publications.
ABCNEWS person of the week spoke of after leaving prison he wanted to get a job and had to look the part.
He had to get clean shaven.
Hmmm. Clean shaven is closer to being hired...
"Clean shaven is closer to being hired..."
An Army of Window Washer. Self-Employed.
I'd say that JWs have a high rate of self employment, which sure beats having a job in this economy.
Quote: "The GA is not the Watchtower."
The Golden Age was every bit as much a Watchtower publication as the Awake (its current name) is today.
"And that was your parents' choice and not the position of Jehovah's Witnesses then or now."
I could not agree more. It WAS my parents’ choice. Of course it was made based on information provided them by the Watchtower Society. They foolishly put their trust in the Organization’s claim that it heard from Jehovah and was assigned as the Faithful and Discreet Slave Class to relay Jehovah’s word to his people. (In those days the consequences for choosing to be vaccinated were the same as choosing to have a blood transfusion would be today--disfellowshipping.)
I can see that you haven't done the research I recommended on this topic yet, so let me add one more Watchtower publication to the list:
Golden Age, January 30, 1935 (p. 269) This page included a form letter meant for Jehovah's Witness parents to copy and give to their child's school. [Just as the Watchtower has provided forms to be signed and given to doctors and hospitals about their ‘choice’ regarding blood transfusion.]
In part this document reads:
"I refuse to permit the vaccination or medical injection of my children (name line) at school and that I will hold you legally and personally liable for damages if you allow such trespass upon my rights as a parent; also if you exclude my child from school for failure to be medically examined or vaccinated, you will be held responsible in damages for all loss and injury accruing therefore…..Date line; Name line, address line.
The Golden Age of April 24, 1935 includes this:
[Referring to a written statement read in court held out as a ‘fine example’ of a Witness] “I am a true Christian and know and study the law of Jehovah God, which is the bible. The law of Jehovah God is against the intermingling of animal matter with any human blood as stated in Leviticus, Chapter 18—“the life is in the blood”, and as vaccination is a direct injection of animal matter in the blood stream, vaccination is a direct violation of the holy law of Jehovah God.” [Recognize this? It’s almost the exact wording JWs now use as a rationale for objecting to blood transfusions.]
BTW, The new light about vaccinations hit the Watchtower on the head in 1952 When clinical trials of the Salk vaccine involving 15,000 children showed conclusively that—contrary to Watchtower teachings—vaccination was beneficial. [God only know how many of Jehovah’s Witnesses children were crippled or killed by diseases like polio, and small pox over the decades the Watchtower, channeling God’s messages, insisted that he was against them.]
In December of that year 1952, the Society reversed its opinion in a brief response under the “Questions for Readers” (12/15/52)section This one read:
Q “Is vaccination a violation of God’s law forbidding the taking of blood into the system?
A “...each individual has to take the consequences of whatever position and action he takes toward compulsory vaccination…our Society cannot afford to be drawn into the affair legally or take the responsibility for the way the case turns out [Sounds as though they’d been sued.]
“After consideration of the matter, it does NOT appear to us to be in violation of the everlasting covenant made with Noah…” [How many times had they quoted that same verse supporting the exact opposite of this conclusion?]
"Voice of Reason said...
ABCNEWS person of the week spoke of after leaving prison he wanted to get a job and had to look the part.
He had to get clean shaven.
Hmmm. Clean shaven is closer to being hired..."
==================================
Here's the article you didn't reference. Notice that he was in the culinary arts. Hair is a sanitary issue so most chefs shave. There are no such issues for a man standing at a podium or handing out literature. In the case of the Watchtower Society, it's a control technique, plain and simple.
"Anonymous said...
I'd say that JWs have a high rate of self employment, which sure beats having a job in this economy."
==================================
Self employment does not insulate one from the effects of a bad economy. If anything, it makes being self employed more difficult.
" Voice of Reason said...
"the 'truth' says you can't go to college. oops, the 'truth' says you can go to college. "
No one said one can't or can. It is a personal choice. Always has been, always will be.
The philosophy is: Do what you want, but do what is wise.
"oops, too many graduates realized how unethical and unresearched the publications are, study a little further and decide to leave...so the 'truth' told them not to go to college and get back on that career as a janitor."
Not true. That means that the "Witness" was not a real Witness in the first place if they leave the faith because of criticism of the publications."
==================================
That's the point. The Watchtower Society is claiming that it is 'wise' to avoid going to college. Nothing could be further from the truth. The only reason the Watchtower Society encourages parents to discourage their children from perusing higher education is that ignorant people are easier to control.
And there's that 'if someone leaves the organization, they were never a Witness in the first place'. This argument is shear nonsense. If two people get divorced, does that mean they were never married? Of course not! Just ask anyone who's paying alimony.
You see VoR, a person may be sincere in believing what some organization has told them. However, when that sincere person learns that this organization has repeatedly lied to its members over the years, that person has two options. 1) He can ignore his conscience and pretend he doesn't know about the lies he's been told, or 2) he can leave that organization.
Really, you know exactly how this works. The Watchtower Society feeds you some 'new light' and you don't believe what you used to believe. The Bible Students who would eventually be re-branded Jehovah's Witnesses used to believe the the Great Pyramid told them all earthly governments would be gone in 1914. Jehovah's Witnesses today don't believe that now because it was completely false. Many ex-JWs have experienced the same thing, realizing (based on research and reason) that not only the 'old light', but the current 'new light' is nothing but man-made false doctrine. It doesn't mean that these folks were never Jehovah's Witnesses any more than the JWs who thought this system would end in 1975 (because the Watchtower Society said it would), but changed their belief in 1976 weren't Jehovah's Witnesses in 1974.
No one said one can't or can [get a university degree]. It is a personal choice."
Yeah, the same way choosing to have or not have a blood transfusion is a "personal choice". Do it and see what happens to your standing in the congregation. You probably won't be disfellowshipped but you WILL certainly be viewed a "spiritually weak", not "putting Jehovah first", and a "bad association".
Those are the consequences a Jehovah's Witness gets for the "evil" of becoming [GASP!]
educated!
Here's an idea--why don't you write a letter to the Society asking how the doctors; nurses and constitutional lawyers who serve at Bethel managed to be trained in those professions with nothing more than a HS diploma. Be sure to let us know what they answer.
"you didn't reference. Notice that he was in the culinary arts. Hair is a sanitary issue so most chefs shave. There are no such issues for a man standing at a podium or handing out literature. In the case of the Watchtower Society, it's a control technique, plain and simple."
I didn't reference an article because I saw the TV report.
But thanks for referencing it as I can make an exact quote.
""I had to defuse the prison stigma. I had to make the felony jacket disappear," Henderson said. "I had to straighten up the way I walked. You know, I had to clean-shave my face. I put make-up to cover my earring hole up, and I learned to smile." "
No mention of sanitary being an issue. He had to remove the prison stigma which included the walk, the beard and the earring hole.
As for beards being a control issue, where is your evidence?
See what wikipedia says about beards and history of them, since you are so fond of history. Thus it is not the Watchtower Society that prohibits beards, but it is society in general.
"In the course of history, men with facial hair have been ascribed various attributes such as wisdom and knowledge, sexual virility, or high social status; and, conversely, filthiness, crudeness, or an eccentric disposition, such as in the case of a tramp, hobo or vagrant. In many cultures beards are associated with nature and outdoorsmen."
"In the eighteenth and early nineteenth century, beards were rare in the United States. However, they had become prevalent by the mid-nineteenth century. Up to and following the American Civil War, many famous heroes and General officers had significant beards. "
"A sign of the shift was to be observed in occupants of the Presidency: before Abraham Lincoln, no President had a beard; after Lincoln until William Howard Taft, every President (except Andrew Johnson and William McKinley) had either a beard or a moustache. The beard's loss of popularity since its nineteenth century heyday is shown by the fact that after this brief "golden age", no President has worn a full beard since Benjamin Harrison, and no President has worn any facial hair at all since William H. Taft."
"From the 1920s to the early 1960s, beards were virtually nonexistent in mainstream America. The few men who wore the beard or portions of the beard during this period were either old, Central Europeans, members of a religious sect that required it, in academia, or part of the counterculture, such as the "beatniks"."
"From the 1990s onward, the fashion in beards has generally trended toward either a goatee, Van Dyck, or a closely cropped full beard undercut on the throat.
One stratum of American society where facial hair is virtually nonexistent is in government and politics. The last President of the United States to wear any type of facial hair was William Howard Taft, who was in office nearly a century ago."
"Self employment does not insulate one from the effects of a bad economy. If anything, it makes being self employed more difficult. "
Loss of job = loss of all income because all eggs are in one basket, other than unemployment.
Self employed means eggs are in many baskets as there are many customers.
"'No one said one can't or can [get a degree]. It is a personal choice.'
Yeah, the same way choosing to have or not have a blood transfusion is a "personal choice"."
Do you not know the difference?
The Bible says to abstain from blood.
The Bible does not forbig bad associations or materialism or seeking the world or wasting time in the world, but it speaks against it. But because the Bible speaks against it does not mean it is a prohibition.
" Do it and see what happens to your standing in the congregation. You probably won't be disfellowshipped but you WILL certainly be viewed a "spiritually weak", not "putting Jehovah first", and a "bad association"."
Not true. Nothing like that is done. How ill those in the congregation even know? It is not their business? Why are people telling them what is not even their business?
VOICE: "Nowhere in print does the organization say beards are 'outlawed'."
Voice, you've been telling us that you don't believe in the Governing Body; Faithful and Discrete Slave Class or the Watchtower Tract company--only in Jehovah's Witnesses? Now you demand quotations from those very sources.
While we're on the subject of the Christian Witnesses of Jehovah--as "footstep followers" of Jesus Christ--shouldn't you be wearing beards? After all Isaiah's prophecies about him told of his beard being pulled out.
Ah, forget it. You don't even try to do what he did--let alone try to look like him.
"Voice of Reason said...
" Do it and see what happens to your standing in the congregation. You probably won't be disfellowshipped but you WILL certainly be viewed a "spiritually weak", not "putting Jehovah first", and a "bad association"."
Not true. Nothing like that is done. How [w]ill those in the congregation even know? It is not their business? Why are people telling them what is not even their business?"
==================================
Boy... hiding your activities from the congregation...
*** w06 5/15 p. 20 Highlights From Book One of Psalms ***
26:4. We are wise to avoid association with those who hide their identity in Internet chat rooms, those at school or at our place of work who pretend to be our friends for devious reasons, apostates who put on a mask of sincerity, and those who live a double life.
***
*** w03 8/15 p. 15 par. 7 We Will Walk in Jehovah’s Name Forever! ***
7 Jehovah will not answer our prayers if we practice sin. That is certainly so if we are living a double life, concealing our wrongdoing while pretending to serve God faithfully.
***
*** w00 1/15 pp. 23-24 Cultivate Intimacy With Jehovah ***
Can we really expect Jehovah to be our Friend if we lead a double life—acting one way around Christian associates and another way when out of their sight—like “men of untruth” who hide what kind of people they are? (Psalm 26:4)
***
Shame on you voice of reason... hiding your identity on the internet and hiding your actions from the congregation. You don't fool us though.
"Anonymous Anonymous said...
"Self employment does not insulate one from the effects of a bad economy. If anything, it makes being self employed more difficult. "
Loss of job = loss of all income because all eggs are in one basket, other than unemployment.
Self employed means eggs are in many baskets as there are many customers."
==================================
Are you a moron? Look businesses take money from their various customers so according to you, because their eggs are not all in one basket, they are recession proof and would not need to cut jobs!
On top of that, try to get a loan from a bank when you're self-employed. It's tough these days.
" Voice of Reason said...
One stratum of American society where facial hair is virtually nonexistent is in government and politics. The last President of the United States to wear any type of facial hair was William Howard Taft, who was in office nearly a century ago."
So what you're suggesting is that true Christians should emulate the leaders of worldly governments directly under the control of Satan?
""I had to defuse the prison stigma. I had to make the felony jacket disappear," Henderson said. "I had to straighten up the way I walked. You know, I had to clean-shave my face. I put make-up to cover my earring hole up, and I learned to smile." "
No mention of sanitary being an issue. He had to remove the prison stigma which included the walk, the beard and the earring hole.
So what you're saying is that if a brother grows a beard, others in the congregation will stigmatize him. That's exactly what the rest of us have been saying!
"As for beards being a control issue, where is your evidence?"
My evidence is in the quotes I made above. As for the Watchtower Society being a high control group in general, check out this blog post. Really, the fact that we're having this discussion at all should raise a red flag for readers. Why does the Watchtower Society use group peer pressure to influence such a trivial choice in grooming? Even though you disingenuously deny that there are negative consequences for brothers who choose to grow a beard, the others who post to this blog will attest to the truthfulness of my claim that there are.
(Watchtower, Nov 15, 2008) "By cutting off association with Christ and his faithful followers they lost their spirituality and their joy..."
Is this a joke? NOTHING COULD BE FURTHER FROM THE TRUTH! You know full well that it is the WATCHTOWER Organization that otracizes those who don't believe its every word. It is the WATHTOWER Organization that threatens to excommuicate any of its current followers who dare to talk to those who have left it!
(Watchtower Nov 15, 2008, Cont'd)
"...Some may have left...because they did not agree with some Scriptural teaching [as interpreted by the Society]."
"Because they did not agree with some Scriptural teaching?" HA! It's because there is so much evidence that THE WATCHTOWER'S TEACHINGS DO NOT AGREE WITH THE SCRIPTURES!
Knowing that only a fool would want to be a part of a religion which admits to adding to the bible in order to prove it's own points. I don't want to get caught with them on the Day of Jehovah's Judgment!
Shawn said:
"Boy... hiding your activities from the congregation..."
"Shame on you voice of reason... hiding your identity on the internet and hiding your actions from the congregation. You don't fool us though. "
You are wrong again.
Did you not even pay attention at today's Watchtower study? It says "that Jesus is a compassionate ruler who understands the limitations of his subjects and afords them a measure of dignity." What that means is that neither he, nor the FDS, nor the elders micromanage each person's life.
That was even stated at the district convention in it said that no one has the right to tell another how to live one's life.
You ought to keep up with things. Your quotes are old. But since you stick to only the Watchtower then your information is old because there is much in the 2006,2007, 2008 DC that has not been put on the CDROM yet.
Shawn said:
"So what you're suggesting is that true Christians should emulate the leaders of worldly governments directly under the control of Satan?"
No I am stating the opposite that the rulers are rulers because that is what the people want. If the people wanted a leader with a beard, they would elect one.
If the congregation wanted elders with beards, then the elders would wear beards.
Ronde wrote: "If the congregation wanted elders with beards, then the elders would wear beards."
No, JWs will do exactly what the Slave tells them to do.
A mature Christian will decide matters of dress and grooming for himself. He doesn't need a color pamphlet to explain anything.
Just as when Jesus wore a beard, there is nothing wrong with a beard today -- unless you're in a cult.
I remember a visiting speaker with a beard gave a public talk in my old cong. Our PO said to me he didn't like the talk, he was always suspicious of brothers with beards, he felt they had a bad attitude, were rebellious and the brother would definitely not be invited back. Apart from that there was no problem.
"Is this a joke? NOTHING COULD BE FURTHER FROM THE TRUTH! You know full well that it is the WATCHTOWER Organization that otracizes those who don't believe its every word. It is the WATHTOWER Organization that threatens to excommuicate any of its current followers who dare to talk to those who have left it!"
Define Watchtower Organization.
And yes, those who have left the congregations of Jehovah's Witnesses and especially those who criticize us, have left the Christ because Christ would never sanction such actions.
"It's because there is so much evidence that THE WATCHTOWER'S TEACHINGS DO NOT AGREE WITH THE SCRIPTURES!"
There is so much evidence but the problem is that you do not know the Bible nor do you know the teachings of Jehovah's Witnesses.
"I remember a visiting speaker with a beard gave a public talk in my old cong. Our PO said to me he didn't like the talk, he was always suspicious of brothers with beards, he felt they had a bad attitude, were rebellious and the brother would definitely not be invited back. Apart from that there was no problem. "
I agree, I am suspicious of ones with beards. Too lazy to shave.
" Voice of Reason said...
Shawn said:
"Boy... hiding your activities from the congregation..."
"Shame on you voice of reason... hiding your identity on the internet and hiding your actions from the congregation. You don't fool us though. "
You are wrong again.
Did you not even pay attention at today's Watchtower study? It says "that Jesus is a compassionate ruler who understands the limitations of his subjects and afords them a measure of dignity." What that means is that neither he, nor the FDS, nor the elders micromanage each person's life. "
=================================
So what you're saying now is that your elder body is happy that you're pulling JW doctrine out of thin air on an apostate web site? You know that's not true, VoR. Your quote from the Watchtower does nothing to support your claim. Jesus may be a compassionate ruler, but the Watchtower Society does not pass this 'measure of dignity' on to its members. Just look at their control techniques or how they blame their members for believing their predictions that didn't come true.
"Voice of Reason said...
Shawn said:
"So what you're suggesting is that true Christians should emulate the leaders of worldly governments directly under the control of Satan?"
No I am stating the opposite that the rulers are rulers because that is what the people want. If the people wanted a leader with a beard, they would elect one.
If the congregation wanted elders with beards, then the elders would wear beards."
==================================
The congregation does not have the option to affect policy even in their own congregation.
From the November 1, 1944 Watchtower:
" Because congregations have overlooked this fact, they have fallen to the idea of independent local democratic rule of a congregation over its own affairs and have elected so-called "elders", "deacons "bishops," etc., to office by vote of all members of the congregation. This is contrary to Theocratic rule.
Such rule takes note of a visible governing body under Jehovah God and his Christ, and it therefor lays upon such governing body the duty to make the appointments of special servants in the local congregations or companies of Jehovah’s faithful witnesses. The Theocratic organization is not ruled from any or all congregations upward as the source of power and authority, but from Jehovah, The Theocrat, down through his Head of the church, Christ Jesus the King. "To the only God [THEOS]our Saviour, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion [KRATOS] and power, before all time, and now, and for evermore."---Jude 25,
Am. Stan. Vet.
This policy has not changed. The congregation has no say over the doctrine and direction handed down by the Watchtower Society.
"Blogger Voice of Reason said...
"Is this a joke? NOTHING COULD BE FURTHER FROM THE TRUTH! You know full well that it is the WATCHTOWER Organization that otracizes those who don't believe its every word. It is the WATHTOWER Organization that threatens to excommuicate any of its current followers who dare to talk to those who have left it!"
Define Watchtower Organization.
And yes, those who have left the congregations of Jehovah's Witnesses and especially those who criticize us, have left the Christ because Christ would never sanction such actions."
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Not only does Jesus sanction speaking out against people who pervert His teachings, He Himself actively denounced false teachers.
(John 2:13-17) 13 Now the passover of the Jews was near, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem. 14 And he found in the temple those selling cattle and sheep and doves and the money brokers in their seats. 15 So, after making a whip of ropes, he drove all those with the sheep and cattle out of the temple, and he poured out the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables. 16 And he said to those selling the doves: “Take these things away from here! Stop making the house of my Father a house of merchandise!” 17. . .
(Acts 20:25-30) 25 “And now, look! I know that all of YOU among whom I went preaching the kingdom will see my face no more. 26 Hence I call YOU to witness this very day that I am clean from the blood of all men, 27 for I have not held back from telling YOU all the counsel of God. 28 Pay attention to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the holy spirit has appointed YOU overseers, to shepherd the congregation of God, which he purchased with the blood of his own [Son]. 29 I know that after my going away oppressive wolves will enter in among YOU and will not treat the flock with tenderness, 30 and from among YOU yourselves men will rise and speak twisted things to draw away the disciples after themselves.
John the Baptist was no less vocal...
(Matthew 3:7-12) 7 When he caught sight of many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to the baptism, he said to them: “YOU offspring of vipers, who has intimated to YOU to flee from the coming wrath? 8 So then produce fruit that befits repentance; 9 and do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘As a father we have Abraham.’ For I say to YOU that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones. 10 Already the ax is lying at the root of the trees; every tree, then, that does not produce fine fruit is to be cut down and thrown into the fire. 11 I, for my part, baptize YOU with water because of YOUR repentance; but the one coming after me is stronger than I am, whose sandals I am not fit to take off. That one will baptize YOU people with holy spirit and with fire. 12 His winnowing shovel is in his hand, and he will completely clean up his threshing floor, and will gather his wheat into the storehouse, but the chaff he will burn up with fire that cannot be put out.”
So before you go telling us what Jesus would do, you might want to read about what he actually did. Jesus was specifically critical of the Pharisees who burdened the people with unnecessary rules.
(Luke 11:38-42) . . .. 39 But the Lord said to him: “Now YOU Pharisees, YOU cleanse the outside of the cup and dish, but the inside of YOU is full of plunder and wickedness. 40 Unreasonable persons! He that made the outside made also the inside, did he not? 41 Nevertheless, give as gifts of mercy the things that are inside, and, look! all [other] things are clean about YOU. 42 But woe to YOU Pharisees, because YOU give the tenth of the mint and the rue and of every [other] vegetable, but YOU pass by the justice and the love of God! . . .
This is exactly what the Watchtower Society does to its adherents.
It's amusing to see all the circumlocutary about beards, as if defending the JW view about that somehow would make JW the right religion.
The JW claim to being 'God's channel' is based on their spurious selection of 1919, 3.5 years after their spurious *October* 1914 interpretations (at which time *nothing* happened), which is based on their bible-ignoring beliefs about 607.
Jeremiah 25:12 says that after 70 years, Babylon's king would be called to account. That happened in 539BC. The 70 years could not end after that, meaning they could not begin in 607. There is of course much more evidence against 607, but the bible by itself makes the JW interpretation impossible.
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