Wednesday, October 01, 2008
By LEE ROOPand KAY CAMPBELL
Times Staff Writers lee.roop@htimes.comkay.campbell@htimes.com
Parking dispute spurs Jehovah's Witnesses to move
Jehovah's Witnesses will move their three summer meetings from Huntsville to Birmingham next year, ending for now a 12-year string of meetings that brought nearly $9 million a year in business to local hotels and restaurants.
A dispute over parking has ended the annual meetings, at least for 2009, as the city's largest single convention booking, bringing 6,000 people to town each of the three weekends. Bill Scott, the manager of the Sheraton Four Points hotel, emerged from a 90-minute meeting of hotel executives on the issue Tuesday to call it, "from my standpoint, a major loss. I don't have anything to replace it."
Local convention bookers, however, say the sessions, although the largest single convention, represent only a 3 percent loss in total delegates visiting the city.
"We host more than 1,000 meetings a year," said Judy Ryals, president and CEO of the Huntsville-Madison County Convention and Visitors Bureau. She said the city is still poised for a "banner year" next year.
The decision is "beyond recall for 2009," Gerald Grizzle said Monday from the convention office at the Jehovah's Witness world headquarters in Brooklyn, N.Y. "We will absorb it into the other conventions."
Jehovah's Witnesses have 340 conventions in 80 U.S. cities. Planning for the 2009 conventions began this spring, said local denomination coordinator Don Diekman. Conventions here are usually three weekends in June and July.
"They increased the price on us too much, and they also had the parking charges going up, and it's getting out of line with what we typically deal with," Grizzle said. "We're not wealthy people, and it's been a very expensive site.
"We rent the building and pay for the parking so our people and our visitors can afford to come," Grizzle said.
"We just couldn't come to an agreement on city parking at the Von Braun" Center, Huntsville-based Diekman said Tuesday. Mayor Loretta Spencer said Tuesday night the parking offer was the same deal as in other years. "We gave them $2 a car. It's $5 for everybody else," she said.
Grizzle estimated that some conventions attract as many visitors as members. No offerings are collected during the conventions, which include lectures and Bible dramas.
A Different Version
Local officials had a different version of events.
The city's negotiations with the Witnesses were handled by a three-organization team representing the Von Braun Center, the Convention Bureau and the city parking division.
It did come down to parking, agreed Ryals and Tommy Brown, director of parking and public transportation for the city. But it was the Witnesses who wanted a new deal, he said.
Grizzle said the Witnesses believed the three-year discussions as a proposal, not an agreement.
The city's deal for 2009 would have charged $7,400 each weekend next year for 1,200 spaces for three days, Brown said. That's about $2 per space for spaces usually rented for $5, he said.
The 500 Von Braun Center spaces were free, Ryals said. Ryals said the city's proposal, including the 500 free VBC parking spaces, meant the Witnesses were getting the Von Braun Center and the parking at a "71.5 percent discount."
Ryals also said her bureau gave the Witnesses $6,000 in cash per weekend for the two largest weekends and $4,000 for a less-attended Hispanic weekend.
That kind of direct payment isn't unheard of in the highly competitive convention-booking business. It came from the Convention Bureau's own independent budget funded largely by a local hotel occupancy tax, Ryals said.
Economic impact
Using conventional ways of measuring economic impact, the conventions have brought in an average of $8.7 million each year for 10 years in revenue, $717,000 each year in sales tax revenue and $5,515 each year in hotel tax revenue.
Grizzle and Diekman said the Witnesses repeatedly called the mayor's office over the last few months to find someone to help broker a deal for 2009, but those calls went unreturned. Spencer recalled the event organizers asked for a meeting on a day the mayor was out of town. "They talked to my secretary. We were booked solid that day," she said. Brown said the message to the city was, if they have to pay for parking at all, they wouldn't come.
Negotiating team
Spencer's office referred the calls to the city negotiating team, which would not change the price. Spencer said Tuesday night it's regrettable the convention chose another city. "We want everybody to come, but we can only be so much of a partner," she said.
"They're tough negotiators," Ryals said of the Witnesses.
Ryals said the city team knew this summer that the Witnesses were moving the Hispanic weekend next year, but had reason to believe the other two weekends were still scheduled.
The denomination informed city hotels last week that it was not coming, Ryals and Diekman said.
Ryals said Huntsville won the Jehovah's Witnesses business from Birmingham and "we're going to continue to pursue it" for 2010.
©2008 Huntsville
By LEE ROOPand KAY CAMPBELL
Times Staff Writers lee.roop@htimes.comkay.campbell@htimes.com
Parking dispute spurs Jehovah's Witnesses to move
Jehovah's Witnesses will move their three summer meetings from Huntsville to Birmingham next year, ending for now a 12-year string of meetings that brought nearly $9 million a year in business to local hotels and restaurants.
A dispute over parking has ended the annual meetings, at least for 2009, as the city's largest single convention booking, bringing 6,000 people to town each of the three weekends. Bill Scott, the manager of the Sheraton Four Points hotel, emerged from a 90-minute meeting of hotel executives on the issue Tuesday to call it, "from my standpoint, a major loss. I don't have anything to replace it."
Local convention bookers, however, say the sessions, although the largest single convention, represent only a 3 percent loss in total delegates visiting the city.
"We host more than 1,000 meetings a year," said Judy Ryals, president and CEO of the Huntsville-Madison County Convention and Visitors Bureau. She said the city is still poised for a "banner year" next year.
The decision is "beyond recall for 2009," Gerald Grizzle said Monday from the convention office at the Jehovah's Witness world headquarters in Brooklyn, N.Y. "We will absorb it into the other conventions."
Jehovah's Witnesses have 340 conventions in 80 U.S. cities. Planning for the 2009 conventions began this spring, said local denomination coordinator Don Diekman. Conventions here are usually three weekends in June and July.
"They increased the price on us too much, and they also had the parking charges going up, and it's getting out of line with what we typically deal with," Grizzle said. "We're not wealthy people, and it's been a very expensive site.
"We rent the building and pay for the parking so our people and our visitors can afford to come," Grizzle said.
"We just couldn't come to an agreement on city parking at the Von Braun" Center, Huntsville-based Diekman said Tuesday. Mayor Loretta Spencer said Tuesday night the parking offer was the same deal as in other years. "We gave them $2 a car. It's $5 for everybody else," she said.
Grizzle estimated that some conventions attract as many visitors as members. No offerings are collected during the conventions, which include lectures and Bible dramas.
A Different Version
Local officials had a different version of events.
The city's negotiations with the Witnesses were handled by a three-organization team representing the Von Braun Center, the Convention Bureau and the city parking division.
It did come down to parking, agreed Ryals and Tommy Brown, director of parking and public transportation for the city. But it was the Witnesses who wanted a new deal, he said.
Grizzle said the Witnesses believed the three-year discussions as a proposal, not an agreement.
The city's deal for 2009 would have charged $7,400 each weekend next year for 1,200 spaces for three days, Brown said. That's about $2 per space for spaces usually rented for $5, he said.
The 500 Von Braun Center spaces were free, Ryals said. Ryals said the city's proposal, including the 500 free VBC parking spaces, meant the Witnesses were getting the Von Braun Center and the parking at a "71.5 percent discount."
Ryals also said her bureau gave the Witnesses $6,000 in cash per weekend for the two largest weekends and $4,000 for a less-attended Hispanic weekend.
That kind of direct payment isn't unheard of in the highly competitive convention-booking business. It came from the Convention Bureau's own independent budget funded largely by a local hotel occupancy tax, Ryals said.
Economic impact
Using conventional ways of measuring economic impact, the conventions have brought in an average of $8.7 million each year for 10 years in revenue, $717,000 each year in sales tax revenue and $5,515 each year in hotel tax revenue.
Grizzle and Diekman said the Witnesses repeatedly called the mayor's office over the last few months to find someone to help broker a deal for 2009, but those calls went unreturned. Spencer recalled the event organizers asked for a meeting on a day the mayor was out of town. "They talked to my secretary. We were booked solid that day," she said. Brown said the message to the city was, if they have to pay for parking at all, they wouldn't come.
Negotiating team
Spencer's office referred the calls to the city negotiating team, which would not change the price. Spencer said Tuesday night it's regrettable the convention chose another city. "We want everybody to come, but we can only be so much of a partner," she said.
"They're tough negotiators," Ryals said of the Witnesses.
Ryals said the city team knew this summer that the Witnesses were moving the Hispanic weekend next year, but had reason to believe the other two weekends were still scheduled.
The denomination informed city hotels last week that it was not coming, Ryals and Diekman said.
Ryals said Huntsville won the Jehovah's Witnesses business from Birmingham and "we're going to continue to pursue it" for 2010.
©2008 Huntsville
157 comments:
so what?
So it's all about the Benjamin Franklins with the WTS. You know that.
I do believe the JW's would be tuff negotiators, hard to deal with. They will wear you down with all their unreasonableness.
Where was it that they actually cut a deal with the city for reduced pkg rates and then proceeded to chg the people parking tickets at an inflated rate rather than pass on the deal? They got caught and the city figured they lost thousands in revenue.
http://www.sixscreensofthewatchtower.com/6parkinglotscandal.html
How about we stick to real info and news about the WTS, and not this he said/she said garbage.
Kimmy Jo
I think you are referring to the Tacoma Dome issue.
seems like no big deal, except they could not get the deal they wanted, so they will look elsewhere.... i am sure the same thing goes on for many other conventions.. the only thing about this is the JW conventions are regional (or state) events. big national conventions often pit one city against another for thier convention and its dollars... of course some cities dont have to beg for conventions either (ie: vegas orlando, chicago) because they have plenty and the cities are desireable ..
"Ryals also said her bureau gave the Witnesses $6,000 in cash per weekend for the two largest weekends and $4,000 for a less-attended Hispanic weekend."
Question: Was this money mentioned when the expense report was read on Sunday at the convention?
If not, I consider that to be deceptive. If the convention is not trying to make a profit, then this 'donation' to the Society needs to be disclosed.
All of the conventions I've ever been to read an announcement saying, 'Donations receive total _____ and contributions received total ________, followed by a tactful 'Pay Up' request.
So, was the $6,000 included in the 'Donations Received' figure?
If not, I feel like I've been deceived.
Does it matter?
Business is business?
And what does this have to do with the Watchtower?
Gerald Grizzle, gave a talk at an assembly once, but this is locally controlled.
And anon.
This is a district convention not a circuit assembly. The issue is the summer conventions, not circuit ones which are in Birmingham assembly hall anyway.
Ronde wrote: "This is a district convention not a circuit assembly. The issue is the summer conventions, not circuit ones which are in Birmingham assembly hall anyway"
What does this have to do with the $6,000?
Either they told the audience or they didn't.
Some anonymous fool wrote:
"Ronde wrote: "This is a district convention not a circuit assembly. The issue is the summer conventions, not circuit ones which are in Birmingham assembly hall anyway"
What does this have to do with the $6,000?"
You are an idiot because, first, I am not Ronde,
Secondly,read it yourself
"That kind of direct payment isn't unheard of in the highly competitive convention-booking business. It came from the Convention Bureau's own independent budget funded largely by a local hotel occupancy tax, Ryals said."
Then you said:"Question: Was this money mentioned when the expense report was read on Sunday at the convention?"
Well, they don't read expense reports on Sunday of District conventions, only of circuit assemblies.
"If the convention is not trying to make a profit, then this 'donation' to the Society needs to be disclosed. "
Of course conventions try to make a profit. Since income is unknown and expenses are know, they always try to get more income than expenses. Anything left over goes to the World Wide work fund incase others do not make profits.
"All of the conventions I've ever been to read an announcement saying, 'Donations receive total _____ and contributions received total ________, followed by a tactful 'Pay Up' request. So, was the $6,000 included in the 'Donations Received' figure? "
At no convention that has been said. Only circuit assemblies.
So your apostate friends deceived you.
Friday, Saturday, Sunday, whenever they talk about the accounts. Let's stay on point.
Does the audience know that that the accounts report started with a $6,000 surplus in donations?
And, did you just admit that JWs hold conventions to turn a profit?
May I quote you?
If failing to disclose the $6,000 to the audience is above board, why not tell them?
Surely that $6,000 is a blessing from Jehovah. The publishers can keep more money in their pockets, to use for gas in field service.
source: http://www.al.com/news/huntsvilletimes/local.ssf?/base/news/122285253255170.xml&coll=1&thispage=1
except, GBL decided to change the news title from "City loses convention" into "Parking Lot Dispute, Guess Which Version of The Story Is True"
JWs don't lie. They practice "Theocratic Warfare".
What's that?
Well, basically it's when you say things that are not true?
You mean, lying?
No, you're not getting it. You say something that's not technically accurate, but it's OK with God.
So, it's lying?
Yeah, I guess you're right.
Voice of Reason [lyingly said again] "You are an idiot because, first, I am not Ronde"
Dear Ronde, I cannot allow you to continue to make a fool out of yourself while continuing to associate your name with Mine.
If you don't straighten up I'm going to have to take care of you before Armaggedon.
So, STOP telling lies! And, please stop making a fool of yourselve with your ridiculous responses on this web-blog.
Lastly, if you want to continue to make a jack-ass out of yourself on this web-blog, please discontinue usuing My name as your god.
Sincerely,
Jehovah God
So, the point is?
If this is the best a full-time detractor can dig up, why not close the blog down?
Better yet, let's have a scriptural discussion.
"why not close the blog down?"
Why don't you start a pro-JW blog?
I guess there is only one reason the admin of this blog leaves the comments open: He gives JW apologists the rope to hang themselves.
He has succeeded beyond his wildest dreams, I would guess.
I get a good chuckle every time I see a JW defend the indefensible or carry water for an unwritten 'rule' that isn't Biblical.
Thanks GBL for the numerous posts on your web-blog... I would never have discovered the deception and errors of this religion if it weren't for courageous people like yourself!
"Does the audience know that that the accounts report started with a $6,000 surplus in donations?"
There is no such thing as surplus in donations. People can donate what they want and they are not going to announce that they have met the expenses. Any excess will go to the worldwide work fun.
"And, did you just admit that JWs hold conventions to turn a profit?"
Of course we do. All non-profits try to make a profit. Non-profit does not mean one does not make a profit. It just means where the profit goes.
"May I quote you?"
Yes, and here is one from wikipedia
'A non-profit may be profitable just as any business, but the profits are used to further the purpose, not to make the people who started it or who work there rich.'
"If failing to disclose the $6,000 to the audience is above board, why not tell them?"
What is there to tell them?
"Surely that $6,000 is a blessing from Jehovah. The publishers can keep more money in their pockets, to use for gas in field service. "
And the WTBTS can use that to help other conventions our missionaries, etc.
"except, GBL decided to change the news title from "City loses convention" into "Parking Lot Dispute, Guess Which Version of The Story Is True" "
Yeah, I got that story yesterday and today.
"Better yet, let's have a scriptural discussion. "
Sheeplike,
He has this blog because he can not even touch a scripture.
So Joepublish is an anon now.
"Thanks GBL for the numerous posts on your web-blog... I would never have discovered the deception and errors of this religion if it weren't for courageous people like yourself! "
Wow, you really are pathetic.
You call what he posted errors and deception?
I will find more enlightenment on the VP Debate than ever on here from the blog.
Whom do you like tonight, Palin or Biden?
Ronde's still waiting for Rocky to run for president... LOL
Ronde said: "I will find more enlightenment on the VP Debate than ever on here from the blog"
That means nothing.
Still no scriptures cited by anyone, yet a lot of mean comments against Witnesses without proof.
Does this not prove something? The fact is, nobody her wants to engage in a SCRIPTURAL discussion!
"The fact is, nobody her wants to engage in a SCRIPTURAL discussion!"
Pot, meet Kettle.
(Luke 21:8) 8 He said: “Look out that YOU are not misled; for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, ‘I am he,’ and, ‘The due time has approached.’ Do not go after them.
Scriptural discussion about a 'parking lot dispute'?
And why do you JW defenders always need proof. The proof would be coming from a 'worldly' source and you wouldn't believe it anyway, you would call it 'propaganda'.
Have you ever thought that it is possible that Jehovah is trying to get you to SEE the TRUTH and get out, after all he is more powerfull than Satan. So why not look at information objectivly?
Satan does not care that you go down with the rest of Babylon.
Remember, 'FEW ARE THE ONES FINDING THE NARROW PATH'...'DO NOT BE MISLEAD'.
Sheeplike said:
"Still no scriptures cited by anyone, yet a lot of mean comments against Witnesses without proof.
Does this not prove something? The fact is, nobody her wants to engage in a SCRIPTURAL discussion!"
And not only that but antiWitnesses will not hesitate to do illegal things to harass Witnesses on and off the Web.
""The fact is, nobody her wants to engage in a SCRIPTURAL discussion!"
Pot, meet Kettle."
Point from Sheeplike proven.
Voice of Reason said...
"""The fact is, nobody her wants to engage in a SCRIPTURAL discussion!"
Pot, meet Kettle."
Point from Sheeplike proven."
Here's a scriptural point to consider...
Using the New World Translation of the Bible (Bible used by Jehovah’s Witnesses), read Revelation 1:8. It states that Jehovah is the Alpha and the Omega. In any other Bible Translation Revelation 1:8 is referring to Jesus, but in the organization behind Jehovah’s Witnesses translation of the scriptures it refers to Jehovah.
Nonetheless, let’s stick with the notion that the organization behind Jehovah’s Witnesses is right respecting Jehovah and not Jesus being referred to in Revelation 1:8. Then, turn to Revelation 22. If you read that chapter it is speaking about Jesus – the One who is coming quickly. If you read Revelation 22:13, it states that Jesus is the Alpha and the Omega. By its very definition only God can be the Alpha and the Omega (‘The First and the Last’ of everything).
So which is it? If you believe most other translations of Revelation 1:8 including, The King James Version, The New King James Version, The International Version, American Standard, New American Standard, etc., Jesus is the Alpha and Omega at both Revelation 1:8 and Revelation 22:13. Again, the Alpha and the Omega by its very definition (‘The First and The Last’ of everything) can only be God. That of course would be a huge problem for Jehovah’s Witnesses as they are taught Jesus is not God by their Organization.
If you believe, the New World Translation of the scriptures as interpreted by the Organization behind Jehovah’s Witnesses, then at Revelation 1:8, Jehovah is the Alpha and the Omega, and at Revelation 22:13, Jesus is the Alpha and the Omega. How can that be so? How can both Jehovah and Jesus be the Alpha and the Omega?
Rev 1:8 ASV
"I am the Alpha and the Omega, saith the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."
So to find the identity of this one, we can go to Rev 1:4
"John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace, from him who is and who was and who is to come; and from the seven Spirits that are before his throne;"
It also mentions "him who is and who was and who is to come" as vs 8 does.
and vs 5 says "And from Jesus Christ, [who is] the faithful witness, [and] the first begotten of the dead,"
So Jesus is distinguished from "from him who is and who was and who is to come", thus Jesus is not the Alpha and Omega.
As for Rev 22, that chapter is not about Jesus.
vs 9 is an angel.
vs 12& 13 is Jehovah "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."
then vs 16 says "I Jesus have sent mine angel", so the speaker changes.
So other translations like the KJV and ASV do not say that Jesus is the alpha and omega. They distinguish Jesus from the alpha and Omega, the one who is and who was and who was coming.
Ronde, you can keep repeating lies and distortions. Say 'em loud enough and someone might believe 'em.
In the meantime, please tell us whether or not JWs speak in the name of Jehovah.
*** w79 9/1 p. 29 par. 28 The Royal “Shepherd” of Bible Prophecy ***
"Unlike the clergy class, those of the Jeremiah class have been sent by Jehovah to speak in his name."
Voice of Reason said...
"vs 12& 13 is Jehovah "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."
"So other translations like the KJV and ASV do not say that Jesus is the alpha and omega. They distinguish Jesus from the alpha and Omega, the one who is and who was and who was coming."
The above statement along with your other statements in your reply is your interpretation and explanation of what is written, which coincides with the organization behind Jehovah’s Witnesses teachings. If you read those chapters alone without the influence of the Watchtower, for many it does not lead them to such a conclusion. There is no proof or backing of Jehovah speaking in the verses you sited, besides the claim that it must be Jehovah because it states I am the Alpha and the Omega; which of course is circular logic.
I encourage all to obtain, read as well as research many different translations of the Bible. Please go to a bookstore or library and pick up another translation of the Bible and besides the New World Translation of Jehovah’s Witnesses. Some Bibles will even highlight the words of Jesus in red, blue or another color to make them stand out. You will find it is Jesus speaking in Revelation 1:8 and 22:13. I have the Bibles right in front of me that do so. Furthermore, do research on Christian faiths and you will see they too believe it is Jesus speaking.
You are certainly entitled to your opinion on who you believe is speaking, your opinion although coinciding with the Organization behind Jehovah’s Witnesses, it does not make it truth or factual. That is much of the problems encountered whether talking or posting information. You are entitled to believe and interpret what you wish as does anyone else. I talk and post hoping to open the mind of individuals to other ideas of thought besides the teaching and beliefs of the organization behind Jehovah’s Witnesses.
Also obtain a copy of the ‘Kingdom Interlinear Translation’ – The 1969 edition, as put out by the Organization behind Jehovah’s Witnesses. This is an out of print publications by the Organization behind Jehovah’s Witnesses for many years now. It cannot be found on the Watchtower library CD-ROM either. Look up John 1:1. Unlike the New World Translation, you will see instead of it reading the Word was “a god”, it reads the “Word was God”. The Kingdom Interlinear Translation is a word for word translation of the original Greek text. The letter “a” was placed in the New World Translation to go along with the Society’s belief regarding Jesus not being God.
Again, you can interpret the above however you want, but the facts are that John 1:1 states “Word was God” in the Kingdom Interlinear Translation, 1969 Edition. The same statement is found in numerous other Bibles.
Robishot said:
"The above statement along with your other statements in your reply is your interpretation and explanation of what is written, which coincides with the organization behind Jehovah’s Witnesses teachings. If you read those chapters alone without the influence of the Watchtower, for many it does not lead them to such a conclusion."
So is that how you brush off everything? If you read it without the Watchtower you will come to a difference conclusion?
Well, I did read it without the Watchtower. And it does not need interpreting.
"There is no proof or backing of Jehovah speaking in the verses you sited, besides the claim that it must be Jehovah because it states I am the Alpha and the Omega; which of course is circular logic.
"
1:8 KJV "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty."
Since Jesus is not the Almighty and Jehovah is, that is clear who is talking. And the phrase "which was, and which is to come," distinguishes him from Jesus as per vs 4 & 5.
"Some Bibles will even highlight the words of Jesus in red, blue or another color to make them stand out. You will find it is Jesus speaking in Revelation 1:8 and 22:13."
Now that is human interpretation to rely on words in red to conclude that it was Jesus speaking? Who put them in red? Not John.
VoR, you are in the wrong religion. If you'd like to remain a JW, you'll need to get your head straight. Here is what real JWs believe:
*** w67 10/1 p. 587 par. 9 Finding Freedom with Jehovah’s Visible Organization ***
"Thus the Bible is an organizational book and belongs to the Christian congregation as an organization, not to individuals, regardless of how sincerely they may believe that they can interpret the Bible. For this reason the Bible cannot be properly understood without Jehovah’s visible organization in mind."
"Unlike the New World Translation, you will see instead of it reading the Word was “a god”, it reads the “Word was God”. The Kingdom Interlinear Translation is a word for word translation of the original Greek text. The letter “a” was placed in the New World Translation to go along with the Society’s belief regarding Jesus not being God."
That is the lamest reasoning I have ever heard.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JohnOneOne/join
for more understanding on that topic.
Voice of Reason said...
"Now that is human interpretation to rely on words in red to conclude that it was Jesus speaking? Who put them in red? Not John."
Response…
Who put the cross references in the middle of the New World Translation Bible since the 1984 revision? The individuals who did the revisions of that Bible…Now that is human interpretation to rely on man-made cross references not found in the original biblical text to make conclusions, teachings and beliefs.
Voice of Reason said...
"Since Jesus is not the Almighty and Jehovah is, that is clear who is talking"
Response…
Again, that conclusion is in your opinion. Many Christians believe God is the Father, the Son, and The Holy Spirit. There are three different beings, but there is only one Godship. Anyone can quote scriptures twisting them to fit their beliefs and any other person can do the same.
Voice of Reason said...
"So is that how you brush off everything? If you read it without the Watchtower you will come to a difference conclusion?
Well, I did read it without the Watchtower. And it does not need interpreting."
Response…
That certainly is not how I brush off “everything”, despite your generalization. But the facts are many sincere, devout Christians who are moved by the Holy Spirit come to different conclusions then the one you and the Organization behind Jehovah's Witnesses have reached. It does not make your option or interpretation better than another. If you came to the same conclusions without reading the Watchtower, no one is stating you’re not entitled to believe such things. However, just because the Organization behind Jehovah’s Witnesses and ‘Voice of Reason’ states it is the truth does not necessarily make it so. Neither do 7,000,000 other people believing the same thing make it the truth. There is another 6,993,000,000 that believes differently.
Ronde wrote: "[join a yahoo group for more info]
That means nothing.
Voice of Reason said...
"That is the lamest reasoning I have ever heard."
It may be lame to you, but it is still the truth.
Voice of Reason said...
"http://[selective website to support my beliefs]
for more understanding on that topic."
Voice of Reason, I'm sure there are websites supporting your beliefs as well as there are websites that completely go against your beliefs. It does not make it truth.
Maybe Ronde could provide a Copy & Paste. His buddies would LOVE that.
Never fear, weak JWs, you just need the new WT fasion blinders.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8wG7jKDRRw
The old 'Alpha and the Omega' and John 1:1 routine. You will have to do better!
First, read Rev. 1:1 "A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him...." They are not the same person, even if you are confused by the title Alpha and the Omega.
Second, read all of Chapter 1 of John. Vs. 2 says "This one was in the beginning with God." How could you be someone and be with them at the same time? Next read John 1:18. Case closed.
A person or church is blinded by believing in the trinity. The word is not in the Bible. If it were true, and a must for salvation, at least a chapter out of the entire Bible would be devoted to it!
The Trinity doctrine does not teach that the Son and the Father are the same person. (WT doesn't tell you the truth about the doctrine.)
The word 'Organization' is not in the Bible. 'Governing Body' is not in the Bible.
"happy ex-jw said...The Trinity doctrine does not teach that the Son and the Father are the same person."
Are you joking? Just add the 'Holy Spirit' to the quote and look it up in a dictionary.
"The word 'Organization'....'Governing Body' is not in the Bible."
There is no argument there, except does it matter that much? JW's do not worship the Governing Body; but logically, things have to be organized somehow. Certainly the idea is found in Acts 15:2. etc.
I think that sheeplike's solid reasoning cannot be argued with.
Here's some other "solid reasoning":
According the Bible, God is a Triune Being. As all humans are a trinity (soul, body, and spirit--1 Ths. 5:23), God is also a Trinity. In Genesis 1:26, God said, "Let us make man in our image. . ." In Genesis 11:7, God said, ". . . .let us go down, and there confound their language. . ." The terms "us" and "our" obviously refer to the Holy Trinity. So the Trinity is found in the very early chapters of the Bible.
In the New Testament, we can see all three Members of the Trinity at the Baptism of Jesus in Matthew chapter three. God the Father is speaking from Heaven. God the Son is being baptized, and God the Holy Ghost is descending like a dove. When Jesus gave the Great Commission in Matthew 28:18-20, He said in verse 19, "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost." 1 John 5:7 tells us that there are THREE that bear record in Heaven: ". . . the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." (The "Word" is Christ according to John 1:1-3, 14, and 1 John 1:1-3.)
God is a Trinity. He isn't three Gods, like the JW's accuse us of believing, but He is ONE Triune God. The pagans who worshipped three gods did so because they knew from observing the creation that God must be in some way associated with the number "THREE." They never fully understood the Holy Trinity, but you must admit that they came much closer than the JW's.
As a man is a soul, a body, and a spirit, God the Father is the Soul of the Trinity, God the Son is the Body, and God the Holy Ghost is the Spirit.
According to Psalm 19:1 and Romans 1:20, God's creation actually declares the Trinity doctrine. One can see PROOF of the Trinity everywhere in the universe. The universe consists of three parts: Time, Space, and Matter. Time consists of three parts: Past, Present, and Future. Space consists of three parts: Length, Width, and Height. Matter consists of three parts: Energy, Motion, and Phenomena. There are three heavens in 2 Cor. 12:2, and on earth there are three forms of life: Man, Plant, and Animal. These forms of life are found in three places: Land, Sea, and Air. God is continually showing us through His creation that He is a Trinity.
A perfect example of this is the sun. The sun has three kinds of rays: chemical rays, light rays, and heat rays. Chemical rays cannot be seen or felt, but they can be very powerful. When one receives a sunburn, it is from the sun's chemical rays. This is a type of God the Father. Light rays are sometimes visible to the human eye. This is a type of Jesus Christ, the "light of the world" (John 8:12) and the "Sun of righteousness" (Mal.4:2). Heat rays are a type of the Holy Ghost for they bring comfort to us by warming our bodies, just as the Holy Ghost, the Comforter (John 16:7), brings comfort to us.
So one can clearly see that God's word and God's creation both testify to the fact that He is a Trinity.
Was There A First Century Governing Body?
The term "Governing Body" never appears in the scriptures so once again we see the Watchtower placing great emphasis on a term that does not exist in the bible. How then does the Watchtower justify an all powerful Governing Body? This is by reference to when the issue of circumcision was decided in Jerusalem, as discussed in Acts chapter 15.
There is only occasion that a gathering of brothers is ever mentioned to decide an issue; the scriptures never again mention a select group of brothers convening to establish doctrine. On this occasion it can not be said that the decision was made by an established Governing Body. Rather in Acts it says that "they arranged for Paul and Barnabas and some others of them to go up to the apostles and older men in Jerusalem regarding this dispute." (Acts 15:2) Rather than showing the existence of a Governing Body of a small number of leaders, Acts describes a gathering of all the apostles and older men in Jerusalem along with Paul and Barnabas, who were traveling missionaries, to decide on an important issue that was affecting the local congregations.
To show that there was no centralized Governing Body directing the early Christians it is interesting to read the history of the Apostle Paul. After Paul’s conversion he did not go to Jerusalem to receive an assignment. Rather, he immediately embarked on his missionary work without conferring with the apostles or any group of leaders. Three years after his conversion Paul made his first trip to Jerusalem and even then did not meet with a group of leaders, but just with Peter and James. It was not till a further fourteen years later that he went back to Jerusalem (Gal 2:1-3), possibly for the occasion described in Acts 15.
The early Christians were not directed by an organization, but by the words of Jesus and the guidance of the Holy Spirit. It was under the guidance of Holy Spirit that Paul did his work, as were all followers of Jesus.
(Romans 15:19) "19 with the power of signs and portents, with the power of holy spirit; so that from Jerusalem and in a circuit as far as Illyricum I have thoroughly preached the good news about the Christ."
(Acts 4:31) "… they were one and all filled with the holy spirit and were speaking the word of God with boldness."
The true "religion" (If you want to call it that), is Christ’s body. It crosses denominational lines and includes individuals both in and out of the various religious organizations that men have set up. It is composed of all those who look to Christ as Head, who have been “baptized by one Spirit into one body.” “Now the body is not made up of one part but of many. If the foot should say, ‘Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,’ it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body. …The eye cannot say to the hand, ‘I don't need you.’” (1 Cor. 12: 12-21 NIV) So we need our brothers and sisters in Christ, even if we see ourselves as quite different from them.
FALSE RELIGION EXPOSED!!!
HERE
Look- there are many pages in any Bible. Is a triune god explained or even mentioned? Does a book of the Bible- or a chapter, or even a verse, explain it?
Instead, the scriptures tell us in Deut. 6:4-5, which Jesus himself quoted in Mark 12:29-30, "Jehovah our God is one Jehovah." The faithful in ancient times were different than all other nations around them in being mono-theistic.
In Revelation 3:12, Jesus refers to the Father "my God." That verse and many others cannot be reconciled with the idea of a triune deity.
Jesus Christ Is Deity
As the Second Member of the Trinity, Jesus Christ stands co-existent in Eternity with God the Father and God the Holy Spirit. There are many proofs in the scriptures for the Deity of Christ. We shall now list several of them.
(1) In Zechariah 12:10, Jehovah speaks of the future return of Christ and says, ". . . They shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourne for him, as one mourneth for his only son . . . ." This is spoken again in Revelation 1:7, which is clearly a reference to Christ Himself, but in Zechariah 12:10 GOD said, ". . . They shall look upon me whom they have pierced . . . ." The One that they pierced was Jesus Christ! So, in Zechariah 12:10, God is saying that He is Jesus Christ.
(2) In John 1:1, John 1:14, 1 John 1:1, and in 1 John 5:7, Jesus is called "the Word," and John 1:1 says that "the Word was God."
(3) Thomas referred to Jesus as "My Lord and my God" in John 20:28, and Jesus did not see the need to correct him.
(4) Isaiah 7:14 gives us the prophecy of the Virgin Birth of Christ and states that His name would be "Immanuel." Matthew 1:23 tells us that this word means "God with us."
(5) In Isaiah 9:6, Jesus is called "Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace." The Bible certainly would not say this about anyone less than God.
(6) In John 10:30, Jesus says, "I and my Father are one." Jesus is not a lesser god; He is ONE with the Father.
(7) Micah 5:2 tells us that Jesus is "from everlasting."
(8) In John 8:58, Jesus tells the Pharisees, "Before Abraham was, I am." He claimed to be the "I AM" of Exodus 3:14, which is God Almighty.
(9) Jesus allowed others to worship Him (John 9:38; Matt. 14:33; and Luke 24:52), which was forbidden, unless He was God (Rev. 22:9).
(10) Jesus forgave sins (Mark 2:5), which only God can do (Mark 2:7).
(11) The Lord Jesus Christ is omnipresent (Matt. 18:20; 28:20; II Cor. 13:14; I John 5:7). We know He is God because He is capable of being everywhere at once.
(12) Jesus is omniscient (Mark 11:2-6; Matt. 12:40). He is God because He knows all things.
(13) The Lord Jesus is also omnipotent (Rev. 19:6; Matt. 28:18). He has all power.
(14) According to John 1, 1 John 1, Colossians 1, and Hebrews 1, Jesus Christ is the Creator of Genesis 1!
(15) Jesus never sinned! Romans 3:23 says that ALL HAVE SINNED and come short of the glory of God, but Jesus did not sin (2 Cor. 5:21; 1 Peter 3:18). So Jesus had to be God.
Now, if you've taken time to check these references, then the Holy Spirit has attempted to show you one great truth: The LORD JESUS CHRIST IS GOD. That much is clear to any honest Bible student. The Jehovah's Witnesses are not honest Bible students. One only has to pick up a copy of their "New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures" to see how dishonest and unfaithful they are with God's word. We shall list a few examples of how the New World Translation ATTACKS the Deity of the Lord Jesus Christ:
(1) It changes Zechariah 12:10 to read, ". . . they will certainly look to the one whom they pierced. . . ."
(2) John 1:1 in the N.W.T. says that "the Word was a god," instead of "the Word was God." The definite article "the" is replaced with "a," and the capital "G" is replaced with a lower case "g." The last half of 1 John 5:7 is omitted in the N.W.T., because it says that the Father, the Word (which is Christ in John 1:14), and the Holy Ghost "are one."
(3) The Virgin Birth is attacked in Isaiah 7:14 of the N.W.T. by translating "maiden," instead of "virgin," even though Matthew 1:23 TOLD THEM that it should read "virgin!" The JW's will attack anyone or anything associated with the Lord Jesus Christ.
(4) They change "from everlasting" in Micah 5:2 to read, "time indefinite," which is not the same at all.
(5) John 8:58 is where Christ said, "Before Abraham was, I am." This matches God's statement to Moses in Exodus 3:14, meaning that Christ is God. However, the N.W.T. says, "Before Abraham came into existence, I have been." This destroys the valuable cross reference to Exodus 3:14. The JW's believe that Jesus was "a god" before the time of Abraham, but that He was NOT the "I AM" of Exodus 3:14.
(6) In John 9:38, Matthew 14:33, and Luke 24:52, the JW's have replaced the word "worshipped" with the words "did obeisance," which is not the same (See Gen. 37:7, 43:28; Exodus 18:7; 2 Sam. 1:2; 2 Chr. 24:17).
The matter is clear: the JW's will attack the Lord Jesus Christ every time they have a chance. Their "bible" proves it. Their WRITINGS also prove it. Here are a few blasphemous remarks made by the JW's over the years concerning the Lord Jesus Christ:
". . . he was the first and direct creation of Jehovah God" (The Kingdom is at Hand, p. 46, 47, 49).
"If Jesus were God, then during Jesus' death, God was dead in the grave" (Let God Be True, p. 91).
". . . the true Scriptures speak of God's Son, the Word, as 'a god'." He is a "mighty god," but not the Almighty God, who is Jehovah" (The Truth Shall Make You Free, p. 47).
"The very fact that he was sent proves he was not equal with God, but was less than God his father" (The Word: Who is He, p. 41).
This is how a cult deals with the written word of God. HUMAN REASONING is the final authority of all cults. Rather than to take God at His word BY FAITH, a cultist will always REJECT God's word and attempt to reason things out for himself. All cults will ADD TO, SUBTRACT FROM, OR IGNORE the written revelation of God.
For those of us who BELIEVE the scriptures, we are now well aware of the fact that Jesus Christ is God. Those who believe otherwise will have to CHANGE or IGNORE the Bible, because the Bible testifies of none other than the Lord Jesus Christ Himself (John 5:39).
Sheeplike said...Jesus himself quoted in Mark 12:29-30, "Jehovah our God is one Jehovah."
Maybe according to the Jehovah's Witness Bible. They place Jehovah where ever they see fit. The tetragrammaton appears no where in the original Greek writings. The assumption made by Jehovah's Witnesses to replace LORD with Jehovah is not consistent and only done when they want to hide who Jesus really is. Try a reliable translation of the Bible.
For instance:
Mark 12:29-30 (New King James Version)
29 Jesus answered him, “The first of all the commandments is: ‘Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is one. 30 And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.’[a] This is the first commandment.[b]
See reliable Bible translations HERE
Here's a question to think about sheeplike:
How many languages has Jehovah's Witnesses translated the complete Bible into - Even their own version?
How many languages is the Watchtower magazine translated into every month?
I won't answer those questions...You do the research.
Tell me what's more important the Watchtower or the Bible?
Respecting In Revelation 3:12 see
HERE
&
HERE
The Jehovah Witness understanding is not the right understanding.
'The Jehovah Witness understanding is not the right understanding.'
And yours is because you linked a website which has another interpretation??
This is what gets me about you Christians, so many interpretations, all insisting you are right. Which one will God choose I wonder...'Me, me, me!'...you all shout.
God's dilemma:
'Hmm, maybe if I had made myself a bit clearer when I had that book written, there wouldnt be as much confusion and argument. I mean, I am GOD, surely I could transmit a CLEAR message to my creation?
Well, time to stick a pin in the religious chart and see who will be the ones I name as the TRUTH. There will of course be so many good, sincere, devoted, lovely people who are going to be really pissed when I tell them they will be destroyed for having had the misfortune to pick the wrong faith. But they should understand lotteries and the chances of winning. Its their fault, not mine. I only created them.
Kind of exciting to think I will get to kill billions of people, dont you think? Hey I might even clear up that confusion about hell and create one, I mean I wouldnt want to disappoint my chosen ones if they get my vote and they believe in that stuff and cant wait for their fellow humans to be sent there. Be kind of neat to step over there in a billion years time and see what effect being tortured for all that time has upon them.
Its a load of crap, all of it.
Im such an idiot
Devil's advocate, well said. All the arguing about what the bible says and what it means is ridiculous. This is the book that says Noah took the animals into the ark 2 by 2 etc...What a load of utter nonsense.
"A person or church is blinded by believing in the trinity. The word is not in the Bible. If it were true, and a must for salvation, at least a chapter out of the entire Bible would be devoted to it! "
You said plenty there brother.
"The matter is clear: the JW's will attack the Lord Jesus Christ every time they have a chance. Their "bible" proves it. Their WRITINGS also prove it."
That quote is completely untrue. Only Jehovah's Witnesses are following Jesus command to preach the Good News.
We do not doubt that Jesus is Divine- he is called 'Mighty God' in Isaiah 9:6, and John 1:18 "the only-begotten God."
However, the Apostle Paul did not believe in the trinity. Please read Philippians 2:5-10 in whatever translation you have.
unhappy exjw (no such thing as a happy exjw or they would not have the exprefix)
"WT doesn't tell you the truth about the doctrine.)
The word 'Organization' is not in the Bible. 'Governing Body' is not in the Bible. "
That is because it is a doctrine and as such has no truth. Trinity doctrine is man made.
Sure the word organization is in the bible. Rev 1:20 "The seven stars mean [the] angels of the seven congregations, and the seven lampstands mean seven congregations."
Organization is congregation.
God is a God not of disorder but of peace. Organization is order.
Governing body is in the bible. Acts 15. And Acts 28:20
and 1 Tim 4:14 "when the body of older men laid their hands upon you"
Older body of men is the governing body.
"God is also a Trinity. In Genesis 1:26, God said, "Let us make man in our image. . ." In Genesis 11:7, God said, ". . . .let us go down, and there confound their language. . ." The terms "us" and "our" obviously refer to the Holy Trinity."
No.
That is just one person, the Father, speaking to the son.
They are not part of the same God.
They are separate entities.
Psalms 83:18 says that Jehovah is the most high. The trinity teaches that Jesus is Jehovah but Jehovah is not the Father. So if Jehovah is the most high then how can a there still be a Father that is not as high but a Father?
"Was There A First Century Governing Body?"
Does it matter?
There is one now. And they do a great job.
"The true "religion" (If you want to call it that), is Christ’s body. It crosses denominational lines and includes individuals both in and out of the various religious organizations that men have set up."
Wrong.
The true religion is the worship of Jehovah through the spiritual temple with Jesus as high priest and sacrifice.
There is only lord one faith. No denominations.
"Jesus Christ Is Deity"
We don't deny that. As he was and is a spirit being.
"Second Member of the Trinity"
unbiblical statement.
"1 John 5:7, Jesus is called "the Word," and John 1:1 says that "the Word was God.""
In the bad bibles it says that.
"Thomas referred to Jesus as "My Lord and my God" in John 20:28"
Thomas was not speaking under inspiration was he?
John 3:16 says that Jesus is the son of God.
"Jesus is omniscient (Mark 11:2-6; Matt. 12:40). He is God because He knows all things."
But he did not know the day and hour.
Your premise is faulty.
Greg said:
"This is the book that says Noah took the animals into the ark 2 by 2 etc...What a load of utter nonsense. "
Well, Jesus believed it.
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VoR. You say about the Genesis flood account, "Well Jesus believed it" The obvious problem is you are using the bible to prove the bible. Circular reasoning. The bible says Noah took the animals on to the ark 2 by 2, the bible says Jesus believed it . Why should i believe what the bible says about Jesus, or anything else, when what it says about Noah is ridiculous nonsense?
The New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures - Translation or Mis-Translation?
Up to the year 1950 the Watchtower Society had used the King James and the American Standard Versions of the Bible in their door to door preaching work. This had always presented problems for the Society, and of course, the Witness who knocked on the door of a knowledgeable Christian. Because of the Watchtower’s teaching that Jesus is not God but merely the Archangel Michael - a ‘mighty god’ but not Almighty God, the use of the above two Bibles posed many problems for the Witnesses, especially where the text plainly showed that Jesus was a part of the Triune God as understood in Christianity. The Watchtower are quick to point out that the word "Trinity" does not appear in the Bible and this is, of course, true. However, all the implications are there. In their booklet Should You Believe in the Trinityon page 12, they state ‘If people were to read the Bible from cover to cover without any preconceived ideas of a Trinity, would they arrive at such a concept on their own? Not at all.’ I personally would take exception to this statement.
As an ex-Witness myself, I had great problems when I read a reputable Bible and found verses that spoke of God and Jesus being one; of the Holy Spirit having a personality and able to teach,
being able to be grieved (Eph 4:30),
has a will (1 Cor 12:11),
knows (1 Cor 2:11),
can be blasphemed (Mark 3:29),
can be obeyed (Acts 13:2)etc,
and I thought, how on earth can an abstract force (which, is the Watchtower’s teaching on the Holy Spirit) be grieved, or teach others? Whilst it is not my intention to go into the Doctrine of the Trinity in this article, I use it merely to show how the Watchtower Society had to supplant the standard Bibles available at that time in order for its members to successfully defend the distorted views they held. As an aside, the term ‘Theocratic Organisation’ is not to be found in the Bible either, yet it is taught and accepted as truth by all Witnesses.
The year 1950 saw the release of the first volume of the New World Translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures. This was a single volume containing the Greek scriptures only (New Testament) and was followed by other volumes of the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament) during the next ten years, starting with vol.1 (Genesis to Ruth) in 1953.
Much trouble was to front the Watchtower Society over the following years as they met opposition from different quarters over the bias in their translation. In support of their New World Translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures, they had quoted Professor Julias Mantey and, as is the case with many Watchtower quotations (see our articles Lies & Deceptions), they had distorted what he had said to make it appear as though he supported their views. As a result, Professor Mantey wrote to the Watchtower Society, requesting that they desist from using his works in such an erroneous manner.
The Watchtower also quoted Johannes Greber in support of their rendering of John 1:1. According to their book Make Sure of All Things (1965 p.489),
‘In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god . . . Based on the oldest manuscripts (a translation from German into English; 1937), by Johannes Greber.’
However, in a ‘Questions from Readers’ item in The Watchtower of April 1 1983 (p.31), the publishers made it appear that they had recently realised that Greber had relied on the ‘Spiritworld’ in arriving at his translation and hence, ‘The Watchtower [had] deemed it improper to make use of a translation that has such a close rapport with spiritism.’ The truth of the matter is however, that the Watchtower Society knew that Greber was a spiritist as far back as 1956 (see The Watchtower Feb 15, 1956 p.110).
Says Johannes Greber in the introduction of his translation of The New Testament, copyrighted in 1937: "I myself was a Catholic priest, and until I was forty-eight years old had never as much as believed in the possibility of communicating with the world of God's spirits. The day came, however, when I involuntarily took my first step toward such communication, and experienced things that shook me to the depths of my soul.
In 1961, the five individual O.T. volumes were combined into a single volume and subsequently revised in 1970, 1971 and 1984. As David Reed notes in his book Jehovah's Witness Literature,the only revision of major doctrinal significance was the change, made in 1971, at Hebrews 1:6 where the rendering was changed from 'let all God's angels worship him' to, 'let all God's angels do obeisance to him'. (From 1879 through 1953 the Watchtower Society taught that Jesus should be worshipped. In 1954 the teaching was reversed, but the Bible verse was not altered to agree until the revision of 1971).
This is the history of the New World Translation, a Bible version acclaimed by the Watchtower as the only true translation available today because, according to them, it alone upholds the name Jehovah throughout the Old and the New Testaments. However, a close examination of the text exposes that they have not only added the name Jehovah to the New Testament, where there is no evidence in the Greek manuscripts for its inclusion, but the text itself has been radically changed in many instances - with words being added or taken away or different words being used to distort the meaning of the text to suit their own teachings - particularly with regard to the deity of Jesus. In this article, we will examine some of these altered texts by comparing the New World Translation (NWT) with the King James Version (KJV) and, since we will not be able to deal with all of the changes to the text, we will provide the titles of a number of books, which will assist both Christians and ex-Witnesses who wish to pursue this subject further.
Col 1:15-17 KJV ‘Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.’
Col 1:15-17 NWT ‘He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him. Also, he is before all [other] things and by means of him all [other] things were made to exist’
The Watchtower Society, without any authority whatsoever, has inserted the word ‘other’ in order to support their false teaching that Christ is a created being. They claim that, since Christ is the ‘firstborn’’ (vs.15) and the ‘beginning’ (vs18), He is, therefore, the first one created; the beginning of all creation and hence, the word ‘other’ is implied. In his book, The J.W's Bible, Gerald Wright explains that:
‘The word first-born (Greek - Prototokos and not Protoktisis which means 'first created') can mean the first one born, but it can also mean the preeminent one. For example Israel was God's firstborn nation; yet Israel was not the first nation to be born (Exodus 4:22). Also, some children became the firstborn when they were not the first ones born (Genesis 27 - Jacob) . . . Thus the word does not have to mean what they say it means, ie the first one born. It can just as well mean the preeminent one. Indeed this is precisely the connotation which must be applied to the word in Colossians one, for it is used in such a fashion throughout the text. Christ is called the firstborn from the dead when, in fact, he was not the first to be raised from the dead (John 11:44) . . . The word 'beginning' is not limited to the meaning the JW's insist on either. Christ being called the beginning no more makes him the first one created than it does the Father, who is also called such (Rev 21:6). Christ certainly was not created as the first thing in the beginning, for we have already seen that he continually existed before and at the time of the beginning (Col 1:17; John 1:1). Christ could not very well be the beginning of the beginning when he existed before the beginning began! (p.42)’
Acts 20:28 KJV ‘Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
Acts 20:28 NWT ‘Pay attention to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the holy spirit has appointed YOU overseers, to shepherd the congregation of God, which he purchased with the blood of his own [Son].’
The Watchtower Society has translated this passage to separate the word ‘God’ from the word ‘blood’ by adding [Son]. The only reason for adding the word Son was to hide the fact that it was God who shed His blood for us.
The title Holy Ghost (the third person of the Trinity) has also been reduced to (lower case)‘holy spirit’ to conform to the Watchtower Society’s teaching that the Spirit is merely the impersonal ‘active force’ that Jehovah uses to accomplish his will.
In his book Reasoning from the Scriptures with the Jehovah's Witnesses, Ron Rhodes maintains that:
‘The New World Translation rendering of this verse goes against all legitimate translations of Scripture. For example the NAS refers to "the church of God which he purchased with His own blood." The NIV refers to "the church of God, which he bought with his own blood." The KJV refers to "the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood." Why do these standard translations render the text this way?. One reason is that there is not a single Greek manuscript containing the word 'Son'.’ (p.86)
Ron Rhodes goes on to suggest that we might ask a Witness:
Why does the Watchtower Society insert the word ‘Son’ into this verse when not a single NT Greek manuscript contains the word?
Do you think it is acceptable to insert words into the Bible that are not found in the original manuscripts?
Heb 1:8 KJV ‘But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.’
Heb 1:8 NWT ‘But with reference to the Son: God is your throne forever and ever, and [the] sceptre of your kingdom is the sceptre of uprightness’
This passage is a very powerful testimony from the Father concerning the equality of the Son with Him. The Father, in fact, refers to His Son, as God - Theos. In distorting this text, so as to avoid the deity of the Son, the Watchtower has really stretched the imagination and I am moved to ask, just what does the statement ‘God is your throne’ mean? This statement is a quote from Psalm 45:6 which reads ‘Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.’ which, incidentally, the Watchtower has also changed to match them up in their perverted translation. Why do they contradict every reputable Hebrew and Greek scholar? Why do they contradict every other reputable version?
The entire context of Hebrews chapter 1 teaches that the Son is God, equal to the Father as deity, the Eternal, and sits with the Father on the heavenly throne. As Gerald Wright maintains:
This Son possesses the nature of God, 'the effulgence of His glory.' Only the true God possesses such glory: 'I am Jehovah, that is my name; and my glory will I not give to another' (Isiah 42:8). Yet this text and many others say that Christ possesses the glory of God the Father. Thus he is not another as far as equality is concerned; he is one with the Father (cf John 1:14; 17:5) (p.21)
Acts 20:7 KJV ‘And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread . . .’
Acts 20:7 NWT ‘On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to have a meal . . .’
This text has been altered to support the Watchtower Society’s annual celebration of communion, known by the Jehovah’s Witnesses as The Memorial. Concerning this, Gerald Wright contends:
It must be noted that the NWT contains a modernising or interpretation of the original text which destroys the true meaning. Their change of 'breaking bread' to 'meal' is without support. The Greek does not say they had been gathered to have a 'meal' It says to 'break bread' (Klasai = 'to break,' Arton = 'bread'). A literal translation is not at all difficult here, and the text needs no such interpretive revision as they have supplied (p.72)
A look at the Watchtower Society’s Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures is interesting here for the Greek text (klasai arton) has the English translation beneath it - and it reads ‘to break bread’ whilst, in the NWT it is changed to read ‘meal’ (Gr. aleuron).
Matt 3:3 KJV ‘For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.’
Matt 3:3 NWT ‘This, in fact, is the one spoken of through Isaiah the prophet in these words: Listen! Someone is crying out in the wilderness, ‘Prepare the way of Jehovah, YOU people! Make his roads straight.’
In this text, the Watchtower Society has John preparing the way for Jehovah when it is clearly in reference to his preparing the way for the Christ (Matt 3:1:, John 1:15; 3:28-30; cf Isiah 40:3; Mal 3:1)
Titus 2:13 KJV ‘Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;’
Titus 2:13 NWT ‘while we wait for the happy hope and glorious manifestation of the great God and of [the] Saviour of us, Christ Jesus’
With regard to this text, Gerald Wright claims that
‘The NWT has insidiously added another article (where none was nor was needed) in order to make it appear that two persons are under discussion here - ‘the great God’ [Father, according to them] and ‘the Saviour’ [the Son]. First the witnesses argue that it is proper to add the indefinite article ‘a’ to an anarthrous noun [in John 1:1] and now they want to add the definite article ‘the’ (See Machen, New Testament Greek for Beginners, p 23 #26). They could not leave this passage unmolested for it conflicts with their concept of Christ. He is a small god and not the great God (Isaiah 9:6 - a small mighty God??) Yet this text allows but one person to be under consideration - Christ.’ (p.50)
J.W.Mantey, in his authoritative Manual Grammar of the New Testament, p.147, positively affirms that
Titus 2:13 asserts that ‘Jesus is the great God and Saviour’
Ron Rhodes maintains that -
‘A study of the Old Testament indicates that it is only God who saves. In Isiah 43:11, God asserts: "I, even I, am the Lord (Yahweh), and apart from me there is no saviour" This is an extremely important verse, for it indicates that (1) a claim to be saviour is, in itself, a claim to Deity; and (2) there is only one saviour - God. Since the New Testament clearly refers to Jesus as the Saviour, the only conclusion that makes sense is that Christ is indeed God.’ (p.89)
The Witnesses do not know this glorious Christ, so as to worship Him and they do not have such a glorious Redeemer to save them. Further, they have no hope of glory, for they do not believe that Christ is He (John 8:24). Further, Jesus said, ‘He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the father which hath sent him’ (John 5:23). ‘Of a truth, those who wrest the scriptures do so unto their own destruction’ (II Peter 3:16).
While we're on the subject of JW convention centers they just made the news in West Palm Beach where 10 years ago they purchased the "Leaky Teepee" a funky convention center type building infamous in the community.
The WT paid $12.5 Million cash for it, sold off the adjacent ball parks at a profit and then put an additional $13 Million into repairs and upgrades which would have cost much more had they not been done by volunteers*.
* Everyone who works for the WTBTS signs an affidavit that they are volunteers in order to protect the Organization from having to carry insurance; workmen's comp or be held legally responsible for damages and injuries.
The public's sole benefit for the WT's ownership is not having to look at the building because of the thick landscaping surrounding the structure.
Concerning Rev 3:12,
I didn't realize this was in controversy. and the link does not bring controversy.
"The one that conquers—I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will by no means go out [from it] anymore, and I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem which descends out of heaven from my God, and that new name of mine. "
Temple of 'my God' means that Jehovah's temple, as Jesus has a God. 'Name of my God'. Yes, Jesus' God has a name, Jehovah.
"public's sole benefit for the WT's ownership is not having to look at the building"
Wrong. The public's benefit is that people learn to serve Jehovah there.
Why all this fuss over the New World Translation?
When I studied, I used my old family Bible, and I still saw God's name at Psalms 83:18.
I also saw that I was wrong in praying to a triune god.
"public's sole benefit for the WT's ownership is not having to look at the building"
"Wrong. The public's benefit is that people learn to serve Jehovah there."
Not exactly...the few days per year that this tax-free property is actually used by anyone for any purpose is rare. When Jehovah's Witnesses actually do convene there (every weekend during the months of June and July) the public is not informed. No one hears about the public being invited on radio; no one sees it on TV, gets to read it on the internet or in any newspaper advertisement until after the fact.
Q: If the Watchtower message was really that important to the lives of the people in this community, why don't you even try to reach us in ways we are available such as
Radio; TV, the internet, and/or newspaper ads?
The Jehovah's Witness' idea that smiling through a memorized sermonette that always sounds like:
'Ding Dong we've got good news for you--God is going to kill and everyone you know unless you study these pamphlets with us now'.
It all the more galling that these Jehovah Witnesses come whenever it's convenient for THEM--without the slightest respect for the schedules of the residents they disturb and then cop an attitude when they are told "I'm too busy".
Self centered creeps trying to earn their way to paradise! They couldn't care less for the rest of the world's people.
ATT JW's: Don't you know of any Christian churches that share your beliefs about the trinity? They do exist but you seem to act as though they do not. Why is that?
Funny when I studied and used the New World Translation, I saw that the writers of that Bible replaced the tetragrammaton with Jehovah at Psalms 83:18 as well.
I also saw that I was right in my understanding of the Trinity, and Jesus is the one who saves.
Voice of Reason said...
"Concerning Rev 3:12..."
There is more than just one school of thought for that verse. "My God" can be symbolic for "My Holy Place" or "Holy, Holy, Holy". It can also be used metaphoric or allegorically.
Surely, JW's are familiar with that concept. I have a copy of the Revelation Book - It's Grand Climax at Hand (The book JWs use to explain everything in Revelations as interpreted by their leaders). It's amazing how the book is written to interpret things as being literal, symbolic, metaphoric, and allegoric to fit JW doctrines.
Surely, JW's are familiar with that concept. I have a copy of the Revelation Book - It's Grand Climax at hand. It's amazing how JW's can interpret things as being literal or symbollic to fit their doctrines.
Voice of Reason said... Yes, Jesus' God has a name, Jehovah.
Do more research and biblical studing! "My God" in Revleation can also be translated "My Father". The same way Jesus always refered to Him in the Gospels. Jesus never called God The Father, Jehovah.
Jesus does not "have a god". He is not "a god". He is God The Son. Along with God The Father and God The Holy Spirit. Seperate beings which are together in unity as one God-ship.
'Jesus' Witness said... said Jesus does not "have a god". He is not "a god". He is God The Son. "
Can you name a scripture that says 'God the Son?"
In addition, the fact that our Heavenly Father has a name is beyond question. All scholars agree that YHWH represents God's name. The question is only of how to represent it in modern languages.
Jehovah's Witnesses accept 'Jehovah' or 'Yahweh.'
Sheeplike said...
Can you name a scripture that says 'God the Son?"
Can you name a scripture that states 'Faithful and Discrete Slave CLASS'?
Can you name a scripture that states 'Governing Body'?
Can you name a scripture that states 'Circuit Overseer'?
Can you name a scipture that states 'District Overseer'?
Can you state a scripture that staes 'Pioneer'?
You cannot. They are concepts and ideas of the JWs. JWs grab scriputes to fit their beliefs and use it to support what they do. Anyone can grab a concept like 'God the Son' from the scriptures as well.
JWs are just like any other religion.
Dear Anonymous,
There is a huge difference with calling an elder 'circuit overseer' (admittedly not named in the Bible) and using the term 'God the Son.'
Certainly, Paul and Timothy were traveling overseers,
so circuit overseers are a Biblical idea. However, Jesus NEVER said he was 'God the Son', and the term isn't in the Bible.
"Can you name a scripture that states 'Faithful and Discrete Slave CLASS'?"
Matt 24:45-57
"Can you name a scripture that states 'Governing Body'?"
Acts 15
"Can you name a scripture that states 'Circuit Overseer'?
Can you name a scipture that states 'District Overseer'?"
Yes, Timothy and Titus. And the fact that God is a god of order.
"Can you state a scripture that staes 'Pioneer'?"
Well, do we need scriptures for every organization things we do?
Get real.
"They are concepts and ideas of the JWs. JWs grab scriputes to fit their beliefs and use it to support what they do."
And there is nothing wrong with that. But we do not make up things to change who God is.
Sheeplike said:
"There is a huge difference with calling an elder 'circuit overseer' (admittedly not named in the Bible) and using the term 'God the Son.'"
Why is it that everything that we do would have to be spelled out in the Bible? They didn't have technology back then so that would mean we can't use it because they didn't.
Where would the Bible get the pattern in the first place? Wouldn't they be criticized for doing things not in their Bibles?
Or do they get to do all things as first impressions?
...and the subject WAS...
"Parking Lot Dispute, Guess Which Version of The Story Is True"
Who REALLY Is The Faithful and Discreet Slave?
The teaching that Jesus was prophetically identifying a future "class" of individuals just doesn't cut it. If there really was a "class" of individuals operating at Jesus' behalf from the time of Pentecost, why did C.T. Russell have to separate from all religious organizations to revive Scriptural truths?
If the Watchtower Society's assertions are correct, that means that there would have been a Faithful Slave Class serving progressive spiritual food for some 1,800 years by the time Russell came on the scene. Yet, Russell was confident that truth did not exist anywhere in the so-called Christians arena; hence he started his own Bible study group.
The Watchtower has repeatedly insisted that no person can gain an “accurate knowledge” of the Bible without the guidance of the Faithful and Discreet Slave Class. If that is the case, then C.T. Russell was just another "apostate" who went off and formed his own group.
If the Faithful and Wise Servant is a "Class", then who is the "Class" of people who receive "many strokes" and the class of servants who receive a "few strokes"? Who is the "ten-mina class" and who is the "five-mina class"? All the aforementioned are servants that Jesus spoke about and are referred to in the Gospels.
It's clear that Jesus' parables were identifying types of individuals - those who are faithful, and those who are unfaithful.
Anonymous said...
""Can you name a scripture that states 'Circuit Overseer'?
Can you name a scripture that states 'District Overseer'?"
Yes, Timothy and Titus."
There are no scriptures that designate such titles. You are pointing to two individuals as examples with no scriptural backing. Any religion can do the same thing, pointing to positions/roles in their organization and provide analogies from the Bible.
Anonymous said...
"And there is nothing wrong with that. But we do not make up things to change who God is."
Again, any religion can claim the same thing against JWs. They can reply in the same fashion and make the assertion that JWs change who God is and they do not do such a thing.
Lets go back to the April 1, 1983 edition of The Watchtower. In the Questions from Readers section, someone asked, "Why in recent years, has The Watchtower not made use of the [bible] translation by the former Catholic priest, Johannes Greber?" The answer in a nutshell is that when the Society found out by reading the foreword of Johannes Greber's 1980 edition of his New Testament, that he was a spirit medium, they stopped using his translation for support. You see, for 14 years the Watchtower used Greber's New Testament translation to give credence to their own peculiar New World Translation. Particularly John 1:1, which is basically identical in both translations.
The fact is, however, that the Watchtower Society knew that Johannes Greber was a spirit medium way before they read it in the foreword of his 1980 translation. They already knew this after reading the foreword of his 1937 edition. This can be verified by reading the February 15, 1956 edition of The Watchtower, pages 110 and 111. Here, they exposed Johannes Greber as a spiritist and author of the book, "Communication With the Spirit World: Its Laws and Its Purpose". They also warned their readers that the spirits that helped Greber translate his New Testament are of antichrist.
May I ask, why did the Watchtower quote Johannes Greber's bible translation from 1962 to 1976 to support their doctrines all the while knowing that he was a spirit medium? The following are the publications where Greber's New Testament is used for support:
·Aid To Bible Understanding Page 1134
·Aid To Bible Understanding Page 1669
·Make Sure Of All Things Page 489
·The Watchtower 9-15-62 Page 554
·The Watchtower 10-15-75 Page 640
·The Watchtower 4-15-76 Page 231
·The Word Page 5
It is interesting that Greber's translation also renders the Word as "a god" in John 1:1. Why do the Watchtower and spirit mediums have a common interest in calling Jesus "a god" and not "God", as do all versions that are translated by recognized Greek scholars? Why did the Watchtower use this demonic translation for support in the first place since Deuteronomy 18:10-12 is clear in forbidding all contact with the occult? Couldn't they have used a recognized authority and not a spiritist for support? Obviously, the spirits that helped Greber cannot be trusted.
Furthermore, if the Watchtower is correct in calling Jesus "a god", why in John 5:23 does Jesus demand that all honor the Son, just as they honor the Father? Why would a created being demand the same honor as the Creator receives? And why did Jesus say in John 15:26, that when the Spirit of truth comes from the Father, that one will bear witness of Himself and not Jehovah?
Contrary to the claims of the Watchtower organization, when we look at Scripture, we see that no “governing body” in Jerusalem existed to lead first-century followers of Jesus. Congregations and individuals were led directly through the guidance of the Holy Spirit as the following Scriptures illustrate:
•At Acts 13:2-4, we see the Holy Spirit directing the congregation at Antioch to send Paul and Barnabas out on their first missionary journey without any approval from a “governing body” in Jerusalem.
•When they returned from their missionary journey at Acts 14:26-28, they did not report to a “governing body” in Jerusalem, but rather, to the congregation at Antioch which had sent them out.
•In the same way, at Acts 18:22, we see Paul and Silas returning from Paul’s second missionary journey—not to a “governing body” in Jerusalem—but to the congregation at Antioch. At Acts 18:23 Paul went out again on his third missionary journey from this same congregation. If a “governing body” in Jerusalem existed, where was its leadership in all of this?
•Who commissioned Philip at Acts 8:5 to preach to the city of Samaria? It wasn’t until verse 14, that the “apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God.” At Acts 8:26, 29, and 40, we read that the Holy Spirit is the One who directed Philip to the territories he preached in.
•Who prevented Paul and Silas from preaching in Asia at Acts 16:6-7? Was it a “governing body” in Jerusalem or was it the “Spirit of Jesus”?
As can be seen by the above passages, it was Christ’s Spirit (the Holy Spirit) who directed the preaching work of first-century Christians, but what about the passages that the Watchtower appeals to for support of their view of a “governing body” in Jerusalem? At Acts 15, Paul and Barnabas went up to the apostles and elders in Jerusalem to settle a dispute involving the circumcision of Christian non-Jews, and at Acts 16:4, Paul and Silas delivered the “decrees” that the apostles and elders in Jerusalem had determined. Does this prove that a “governing body” in Jerusalem existed? No, it does not.
If we look carefully at Acts 15:1-2, we see that the dispute had arisen when men from the area of Jerusalem (i.e., Judea) had come down to the congregation at Antioch and proclaimed that these believers needed to be circumcised according to Jewish custom. Is it any wonder they went to Jerusalem to settle the dispute that had been caused by men from that area? At Acts 16, these “decrees” that Paul and Silas were delivering had to do with the decision that had just been reached concerning circumcision. There is no indication that these “decrees” involved any other issue. Thus, we see that there is no basis for the claim that an “organization” is needed to lead God’s people today.
"Who REALLY Is The Faithful and Discreet Slave? "
Does it matter?
Why not just behave yourself?
"There are no scriptures that designate such titles. You are pointing to two individuals as examples with no scriptural backing."
Does there need to be designations in the scriptures for everything?
If there is then where did the scriptures get those designations from?
Someone somewhere has to originate them.
"Furthermore, if the Watchtower is correct in calling Jesus "a god","
It is not a matter of the Watchtower being correct in calling Jesus 'a god'.
Many other translations make a distinction and do not use the phrase 'the Word was God'.
Open your mind to more than the Watcthower.
"Contrary to the claims of the Watchtower organization, when we look at Scripture, we see that no “governing body” in Jerusalem existed to lead first-century followers of Jesus. Congregations and individuals were led directly through the guidance of the Holy Spirit as the following Scriptures illustrate:"
While there was not one designated group who stayed at one location, there was a group that met at one location, made a decision and passed it around.
Your definition of governing body is too narrow.
And congregations and individuals operated differently back then. They had gifts of the spirit that people don't have today.
But they did not operate individually. They had letters and visits from the apostles.
"When they returned from their missionary journey at Acts 14:26-28, they did not report to a “governing body” in Jerusalem, but rather, to the congregation at Antioch which had sent them out."
That is because they did not have means of returning and communicating like today. And Paul and Barnabus were on the governing body.
"...there was a group that met at one location, made a decision and passed it around."
There is no scriptural support for the above statement. Again, the only thing JWs will use to support the above theory is the one issue that arose and from Judea regarding circumcision. Again, If we look carefully at Acts 15:1-2, we see that the dispute had arisen when men from the area of Jerusalem (i.e., Judea) had come down to the congregation at Antioch and proclaimed that these believers needed to be circumcised according to Jewish custom. Is it any wonder they went to Jerusalem to settle the dispute that had been caused by men from that area? At Acts 16, these “decrees” that Paul and Silas were delivering had to do with the decision that had just been reached concerning circumcision. There is no indication that these “decrees” involved any other issue.
Anonymous said...
"That is because they did not have means of returning and communicating like today."
Again, no scriptural support. Paul and others would've returned to a Governing Body to report. They did not because it did not exist.
Anonymous said...
"But they did not operate individually. They had letters and visits from the apostles."
That is speculation...Just becuase congregations had letters and visits from the apostles does not mean they did not operate individual or that a Governing Body existed.
Other religions receive visits to their congregations/churches and letters of encouragement. Still does not prove a Governing Body or that JWs have a so-called one true religion.
"There is no scriptural support for the above statement."
I don't see the point in arguing this.
If there is something bad about a governing body then state that, but arguing these points is fruitless.
"Anonymous said...
"That is because they did not have means of returning and communicating like today."
Again, no scriptural support. Paul and others would've returned to a Governing Body to report. They did not because it did not exist. "
That is because there were not many in the preaching work like today so if Paul and the others returned to Jerusalem all of the time, he would not be preaching to the nations.
think about it.
Anonymous said...That is because there were not many in the preaching work like today so if Paul and the others returned to Jerusalem all of the time, he would not be preaching to the nations
If that makes you feel better to convince yourself of that as a valid explanation for not reporting to a so-called Governing Body, it is your prerogative. It still does not mean or prove a Governing Body existed.
If a so-called Governing Body existed and the scriptures recorded Paul always reporting back to it that would prove without a doubt it did exist and God may use one today. The fact the scriptures do not state such a thing further gives credence to one never existing rather than the existing of one back then and/or today.
Think about it.
Anonymous said...
"If there is something bad about a governing body then state that, but arguing these points is fruitless."
Are you kidding? The Governing Body controls the beliefs and teachings of JWs. If there's no proof of it ever existing, there's no support for a bunch of men in Bethel calling the shots for 7 million people.
"Are you kidding? The Governing Body controls the beliefs and teachings of JWs. If there's no proof of it ever existing, there's no support for a bunch of men in Bethel calling the shots for 7 million people."
Oh really?
From what I have seen of JWs, is that their beliefs and teachings are from the Bible.
Voice of Reason said...From what I have seen of JWs, is that their beliefs and teachings are from the Bible.
From what I have seen of JWs many of their beliefs and teachings are not from the Bible.
Many of the interpretation and beliefs of JWs as well as their translation of the Bible from a so-called Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses.
Their copy of the Bible also happens to coincide with Johannes Greber spiritistic translation. In case you missed it:
Lets go back to the April 1, 1983 edition of The Watchtower. In the Questions from Readers section, someone asked, "Why in recent years, has The Watchtower not made use of the [bible] translation by the former Catholic priest, Johannes Greber?" The answer in a nutshell is that when the Society found out by reading the foreword of Johannes Greber's 1980 edition of his New Testament, that he was a spirit medium, they stopped using his translation for support. You see, for 14 years the Watchtower used Greber's New Testament translation to give credence to their own peculiar New World Translation. Particularly John 1:1, which is basically identical in both translations.
The fact is, however, that the Watchtower Society knew that Johannes Greber was a spirit medium way before they read it in the foreword of his 1980 translation. They already knew this after reading the foreword of his 1937 edition. This can be verified by reading the February 15, 1956 edition of The Watchtower, pages 110 and 111. Here, they exposed Johannes Greber as a spiritist and author of the book, "Communication With the Spirit World: Its Laws and Its Purpose". They also warned their readers that the spirits that helped Greber translate his New Testament are of antichrist.
May I ask, why did the Watchtower quote Johannes Greber's bible translation from 1962 to 1976 to support their doctrines all the while knowing that he was a spirit medium? The following are the publications where Greber's New Testament is used for support:
· Aid To Bible Understanding
Page 1134
· Aid To Bible Understanding
Page 1669
· Make Sure Of All Things
Page 489
· The Watchtower 9-15-62
Page 554
· The Watchtower 10-15-75
Page 640
· The Watchtower 4-15-76
Page 231
· The Word
Page 5
It is interesting that Greber's translation also renders the Word as "a god" in John 1:1. Why do the Watchtower and spirit mediums have a common interest in calling Jesus "a god" and not "God", as do all versions that are translated by recognized Greek scholars? Why did the Watchtower use this demonic translation for support in the first place since Deuteronomy 18:10-12 is clear in forbidding all contact with the occult? Couldn't they have used a recognized authority and not a spiritist for support? Obviously, the spirits that helped Greber cannot be trusted.
Ronde wrote: "From what I have seen of JWs..."
You should get out more often!
"Many of the interpretation and beliefs of JWs as well as their translation of the Bible from a so-called Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses.
Their copy of the Bible also happens to coincide with Johannes Greber spiritistic translation. In case you missed it:"
So are you saying that Greber is the only one that translated it 'the Word was a god'?
and no matter who Greber was, does his life now make Jesus God.
That is the problem with the opposers of Jehovah's Witnesses, they are stumbled by who was quoted and what was written to where they are no longer serving God and following the Christ.
NWT = New World Translation; NIV = New International Version; NASB = New American Standard Bible; KJV = King James Version
Here's just a *few* examples respecting the corruption with the New World Translation (JW Bible):
Genesis 1:1-2
NWT: In [the] beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth proved to be formless and waste and there was darkness upon the surface of [the] watery deep; and God's active force was moving to and fro over the surface of the waters.
NIV: In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
NASB: In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters.
KJV: In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
DISCUSSION: The Jehovah’s Witnesses reject the doctrine of the Trinity. They believe in a non-triune God named Jehovah, they believe Jesus is “a god” subordinate to Jehovah, and they reject the notion that the Holy Spirit is a person of the Trinity. They believe that the Holy Spirit is an extension of Jehovah – an “active force” He sends out. The Hebrew words here are ruwach elohim, which are accurately translated as “Spirit of God.” Ruwach can be translated as “wind” also, but when joined in context with God, it is a reference to the Spirit of God (as Strong’s Hebrew Lexicon states, “Spirit of God, the third person of the triune God, the Holy Spirit, coequal, coeternal with the Father and the Son”). This is the first example of the NWT forcing its doctrinal bias into the text of Scripture.
Zechariah 12:10
NWT: And I will pour out upon the house of David and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem the spirit of favor and entreaties, and they will certainly look to the One whom they pierced through, and they will certainly wail over Him as in the wailing over an only [son]; and there will be a bitter lamentation over him as when there is bitter lamentation over the firstborn [son].
NIV: And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.
NASB: I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn.
KJV: And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
DISCUSSION: This passage is one of the most phenomenal Messianic prophecies, because God (Yahweh/Jehovah) is speaking in the first person about Him being the one who will be pierced through. Obviously, Jesus fulfilled this prophecy, and the Jehovah’s Witnesses recognize this as well. The implications are clear. Since this was God’s prophecy about what would happen to Him, and Jesus fulfilled this prophecy, then Jesus MUST be God. In fact, in the NWT Zechariah 12:1 indicates these are the “words of Jehovah.”[1] The NWT translators apparently missed the inclusion in this verse of the Hebrew ayth, which Strong’s indicates it is a contraction of a word that gives the meaning of “self.”
Mathew 14:33 (among others)
NWT: Then those in the boat did obeisance to him, saying: “You are really God’s Son.”
NIV: Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, "Truly you are the Son of God."
NASB: And those who were in the boat worshiped Him, saying, "You are certainly God's Son!"
KJV: Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.
DISCUSSION: Throughout the New Testament we find people who worshiped Jesus. Since worship is an action that should be reserved for God, and the Jehovah’s Witnesses deny the deity of Jesus Christ, the NWT had to rectify these verses. The Greek word here is proskuneo. While this word can be translated as doing obeisance (which is defined as giving reverence or homage), the giveaway is the Watchtower’s inconsistency in translating this word. In every instance in the New Testament were proskuneo is given to Jesus Christ, it is translated as doing “obeisance.” Where proskuneo is directed to the Father (“Jehovah” in the NWT), they rightly translate it as “worship” (as in John 4:20).
John 1:1
NWT: In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.
NIV: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
NASB: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
KJV: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Here, every legitimate translation of the Bible reads the same – the Word (logos) was God (theos). The NWT stands alone in its contention that the Word was a god. This is to reinforce the JW doctrine that Jesus is not Jehovah, but is simply a subordinate god. The last Greek phrase in its entirety is theos en ho logos, where ho is a definite article (the). The Watchtower says that when theos is preceded by the definite article ho, it implies identity or personality. Since the first use of theos in this verse is preceded by ho, it refers to God. The second use of theos is not preceded by ho, making it an indefinite description or quality. This is simply wrong thinking. It’s an important point to make that theos without the definite article ho is used elsewhere in the New Testament in reference to Jehovah God, and is translated appropriately in the NWT (such as in Luke 20:38). They are inconsistent with this argument, positing the “indefinite quality” assertion only in reference to Jesus.
John 8:58
NWT: Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to YOU, Before Abraham came into existence, I have been.”
NIV: “I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”
NASB: Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."
KJV: Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
DISCUSSION: There are deep doctrinal implications in the words of Jesus here. “I am” speaks to his eternality. It is also a name of God that He divulged to Moses. Exodus 3:14 says, God said to Moses, “I am who I am. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.' " The Greek in John 8:58 is ego eimi, where ego means “I” and eimi is a first person singular present indicative, to “exist”. The Septuagint provides ego eimi as the Greek words in Exodus 3:14. The Hebrew word is hayah, which is derived from the same root as Yahweh. The NWT seeks to distance Jesus’ claims to eternality or deity. Thus, it stands alone in its gross mistranslation of this verse.
Acts 20:28
NWT: Pay attention to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the holy spirit has appointed YOU overseers, to shepherd the congregation of God, which he purchased with the blood of his own [Son].
NIV: Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood.
NASB: Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.
KJV: Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
DISCUSSION: Some more grammatical games and bracket inclusions combine to once again pervert Holy Scripture in order to deny the deity of Jesus Christ. Going through my collection of legitimate Bible translations (and some not-so good translations), I find the NWT stands alone in their mistranslation of this verse. The verse speaks of God purchasing the church “with His own blood”. This is obviously a reference to God the Son, Jesus Christ. What a powerful biblical testimony to the deity of Christ, and what an anathema to the neo-Arian doctrines of the Jehovah’s Witnesses! In order to overcome this, a little mistranslation is made to completely change the meaning and deceive their followers. Not a single extant Greek manuscript contains the word “son”.
Colossians 1:16,17
NWT: because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him. Also, he is before all [other] things and by means of him all [other] things were made to exist,
NIV: For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
NASB: For by Him all things were created, {both} in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
KJV: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
DISCUSSION: This is one of those passages that speak clearly toward the deity of Jesus Christ and His role as the Creator of all things. It’s also one of those passages where the Watchtower Society is powerless to form an argument from the Greek, so they play the brackets game. In order to deny the deity of Jesus Christ and to buttress their argument that Jesus was simply the first of God’s creations, they insert the word “other”. The NWT reads that Jesus, as the first created being, created all “other” things. Since the Greek word for “other” is not found in the Greek manuscripts, they bracket the word to indicate that they’re inserting a word that does not belong. This additional word does not help the flow or clarity of the text, but is instead designed to attack the explicit biblical teaching of Christ’s deity and role as Creator. Greek scholar and theologian Robert Reymond referred to the addition of “other” as “sheer theological perversity…” As an example of the deceptive practices of the Watchtower Society, the 1950 version of the NWT did not bracket the word “other,” making it appear that it was part of the Greek Text. Only since 1961, when pressured to do so by Bible scholars, did they add the brackets.
Titus 2:13
NWT: while we wait for the happy hope and glorious manifestation of the great God and of [the] Savior of us, Christ Jesus
NIV: while we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ
NASB: looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus
KJV: Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
DISCUSSION: This verse identifies our great God and our Savior Jesus Christ as being one and the same. While an argument can be made that the KJV separates the two much like the NWT (by placing the Greek pronoun hemon, meaning “our,” in an improper location), the wording of the NWT and the additional bracketed definite article go beyond a disputed positioning of the Greek, and presents an inferior and erroneous translation that once again separates Jesus Christ from His deity.
Legitimate scholars in the Biblical languages and manuscripts don’t think much of the NWT. Dr. Bruce Metzger is a well-known scholar whose works are seminary standards. He used the following adjectives when describing the NWT: “a frightful mistranslation,” “erroneous,” “pernicious,” and “reprehensible.” British Bible scholar H.H. Rowley stated that the NWT is “a shining example of how the Bible should not be translated.” He also referred to the NWT as “an insult to the Word of God.” While this list could go on, let me conclude with the words of Dr. William Barclay who stated, “It is abundantly clear that a sect which can translate the New Testament like that is intellectually dishonest.”
Voice of Reason said...That is the problem with the opposers of Jehovah's Witnesses, they are stumbled by who was quoted and what was written to where they are no longer serving God and following the Christ.
That is the problem with supportors of Jehovah's Witnesses, they are blinded by the Watchtower Society that no matter what facts you show them they refuse to serve God including honoring Jesus the way the scriptures indicate to Christians. Instead, they want and need to feel their the only ones God approves, according of course to their interpretations.
Voice of Reason said...and no matter who Greber was, does his life now make Jesus God.
It certainly doesn't strip Jesus of His GodShip just because Greber and Witnesses claim he should not have it.
"DISCUSSION: The Jehovah’s Witnesses reject the doctrine of the Trinity. "
Yes, we reject the trinity because that does not provide a means of salvation.
"NASB: And those who were in the boat worshiped Him, saying, "You are certainly God's Son!""
If you are saying that Jesus is God because people worshipped him, you are wrong. Worship is not limited to God as it said that he was God's son.
Voice of Reason said...Yes, we reject the trinity because that does not provide a means of salvation.
Neither does belonging to an organization, contrary to the claims made by the Watchtower Society.
"Here, every legitimate translation of the Bible reads the same – the Word (logos) was God (theos)."
Wow, you are calling many translations not legitimate.
There only connection between Exodus 3:14 and John 8:58 is in the faulty english of the KJV.
Neither the Septuagint nor the Hebrew connect the two scriptures..
Voice of Reason said...Worship is not limited to God as it said that he was God's son.
Not according to the teaching's of the Watchtower. Worship is limited to Jehovah God. Wow, are you one of Jehovah's Witnesses? Or do you have you own brand of the religion?
What I find interesting is that those scriptures you reference are all controversial ones. And they are from human writings. Titus, Colossians, Acts. Human writings.
But what does Jehovah and Jesus say?
Jehovah said that Jesus was his son three times from heaven.
Jesus in John 3:16 said that he was the son of God.
No controversy there.
Voice of Reason said...Wow, you are calling many translations not legitimate.
Nope, again that would be the Watchtower and teachings of Jehovah's Witnesses
Voice of Reason said...What I find interesting is that those scriptures you reference are all controversial ones. And they are from human writings. Titus, Colossians, Acts. Human writings.
So, only part of the Bible and whatever scriptures you want to focus on is acceptable? You really are grasping for straws, arent't you?
"It certainly doesn't strip Jesus of His GodShip"
We do not deny Jesus' godship.
As a mighty spirit being he is a god, but not Jehovah God.
Anon can not say a thing without attacking the watchtower.
Thus s/he has no faith to teach on its own.
Voice of Reason said...As a mighty spirit being he is a god, but not Jehovah God.
Not according to Isaiah 43:10. There was NO GOD formed after Him. Even your JW bible states that.
Which is it? No God after Jehovah...which defunts the JW/Greber translation of John 1:1, or the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit make up God?
Voice of Reason said...Anon can not say a thing without attacking the watchtower.
Thus s/he has no faith to teach on its own.
Plenty of faith I have without the reliance on an organization. My faith is 100% with Jesus - Not man, bot an organization.
Voice of Reason, I do feel sorry for you. You are definitely passionate about your faith, but just misguided. Seek truth...You will find it. One religion/one organization is not the way. The One Faith the Bible speaks of is Jesus not any man-made organization. Jesus is The Way, The Truth, and The Light.
I accept that which is from Jehovah and his son and not the understanding of humans.
"Voice of Reason said...As a mighty spirit being he is a god, but not Jehovah God.
Not according to Isaiah 43:10. There was NO GOD formed after Him. Even your JW bible states that."
Yes there was no God formed after Jehovah because Jesus is not God who deserves worship of humans. That is the context of that scriptures.
"Which is it? No God after Jehovah...which defunts the JW/Greber translation of John 1:1, or the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit make up God? "
Yes, there was no God except for Jehovah and Jesus is not God.
"Plenty of faith I have without the reliance on an organization. My faith is 100% with Jesus - Not man, bot an organization. "
So when that Jesus said to go an make disciples, what do you do?
I have found truth.
That is why I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses.
People are not to be witnesses for Jesus that is too narrow, that only applied to those at that time of Acts, but Jehovah's Witnesses are timeless.
Voice of Reason said...So when that Jesus said to go an make disciples, what do you do?
Preach to people and teach to people. Later on hopefully baptism for those people in the name of The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit.
Not baptised in the name of The Father, The Son, and God's spirit-directed organization...Such as consists of a JW dedication.
"Not baptised in the name of The Father, The Son, and God's spirit-directed organization...Such as consists of a JW dedication. "
You are misleading as that is not what we say.
Voice of Reason said... People are not to be witnesses for Jesus that is too narrow, that only applied to those at that time of Acts, but Jehovah's Witnesses are timeless.
So says Greber, you, and ~7 million other JWs. Sorry there's 7 billion people unaccounted for.
If it's too narrow for you and anyone else - that's YOUR OPINION.
Jehovah Witnesses are not timeless silly. Their origins is with CT Russell in the late 1800's. Started as Bible Students who are an offshoot of other faiths. Then with their second drunk president Rutherford who was jealous of Russell's fame - even some of the Bible Student's being called "Russellites" he decided to adopt the name Jehovah's Witnesses. That certainly is not timeless.
Voice of Reason...You are misleading as that is not what we say.
Don't lie. That is certainly what new converts agree to by answering yes to questions respecting their understanding of dedication to Jehovah, Jesus and his spirit-directed organization as they stand in front of the speaker at the end of his delivery of the bapitsm talk.
Stop making up your own JW religion.
"that is not what we say"
Who is we? You and God?
"That means nothing."
RV from Gehenna... I love the names you come up with!
Anonymous, you are really kicking anonymous ass... thats why he had to revert to Voice of reason...and then you kicked his ass too.
Voice of Treason said,
'Anon can not say a thing without attacking the watchtower.
Thus s/he has no faith to teach on its own.'
This statement alone proves he IS a JW as it is a standard response to anyone who says anything against the JWs. What have you got to put in its place?
It doesnt matter that they are wrong. What matters is that they will doggedly stick to believing their untruth, because you have 'nothing' better to offer.
Fear rules.
Voice of Reason said...Yes, there was no God except for Jehovah and Jesus is not God.
Let's try this again.
If you stick with the notion of Jesus not being God, a statement which coincides with the Watchtower translation of John 1:1 of Jesus being "a god", it contradicts Isaiah 43:10 which states there is NO GOD formed after Him. The JW Bible - The New World Translation states the same thing.
So, once more is Jesus God, or is he "a god" which GOD says at Isaiah 43:10 was not formed?
"If you stick with the notion of Jesus not being God, a statement which coincides with the Watchtower translation of John 1:1 of Jesus being "a god", it contradicts Isaiah 43:10 which states there is NO GOD formed after Him. The JW Bible - The New World Translation states the same thing.
So, once more is Jesus God, or is he "a god" which GOD says at Isaiah 43:10 was not formed? "
No, it does not contradict anything.
Isaiah 43:10 says no God was formed after Jehovah. And that is correct. No God was formed after him. No one gets the worship that Jehovah deserves, not even Jesus.
And consider the context: vs 9
"Let all the nations be gathered together, and let the peoples be assembled: who among them can declare this, and show us former things? let them bring their witnesses, that they may be justified; or let them hear, and say, It is truth."
So Jehovah is comparing himself to the gods of the nations, not to his son.
Then he answers his challenge in vs 10"Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me."
Anonymous said...
""Let all the nations be gathered together, and let the peoples be assembled: who among them can declare this, and show us former things? let them bring their witnesses, that they may be justified; or let them hear, and say, It is truth."
So Jehovah is comparing himself to the gods of the nations, not to his son."
No one stated Jehovah is "comparing" himself to his son.
The scripture as you quoted states that "ALL nations" be gathered - This includes the nation of Isreal - who's God is Jehovah. Jehovah states "before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.""
"a god" - Jesus therefore could not be formed despite what is said at John 1:1.
Who stated anything about a comparison? It's either "a god" [Jesus] was formed after him or not.
There's no contradiction if the tetragrammaton was in place in Isaiah representing The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit as one God. Then John 1:1 when properly translated states the "Word was God".
The Scriptures would then be in harmony.
And Anonymous...taking things out of context as well as adding to the scriptures is especially noteworthy in JW doctrine and teaching. Just look at the doctrine/teaching of a "Faithful and Discreet Slave Class".
They add "class" to the scripture and take it out of its context of Jesus speaking to individuals about individuals; not about a special "class" of people. Each one of us needs to be faithful and discreet in following Jesus. If we do so, Jesus will reward us.
""a god" - Jesus therefore could not be formed despite what is said at John 1:1. "
What about the myriad of angels who are also gods?
"The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit as one God."
That does not exist
Anonymous said...What about the myriad of angels who are also gods?
Please quote the Bible chapter and verse which states such a thing.
Anonymous said...
"The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit as one God."
That does not exist
It does not exist if you believe the JW their New World Translation and Greber. Others are certainly entitled to their opinion as well.
But for many it does exist according to their Biblical understanding.
Regardless, it does fix the problem with the NWT idea of Jesus being "a god" (John 1:1), but Jehovah stating there was No God formed after Him (Isaiah 43:10).
Sorry that should have read: Regardless, it does NOT fix the problem with the NWT idea of Jesus being "a god" (John 1:1), but Jehovah stating there was No God formed after Him (Isaiah 43:10).
Wow! So much controversy over a parking lot dispute!
There are many comments about the Governing Body. I would say that 99% of witnesses could not name them.
But, what is so wrong about having a group of spiritual men organizing things? Is it not better than just one?
When questions arose in the first century, the apostles and older men discussed it as a group. You all should find another topic.
Sheeplike said... But, what is so wrong about having a group of spiritual men organizing things? Is it not better than just one?
Jesus is enough of a leader thanks. But feel free to choose to be led by a group of men in Brooklyn.
Sheeplike said...
Wow! So much controversy over a parking lot dispute! You all should find another topic.
What started as a controversy over a parking lot dispute, turned into much more - Just look over all posts.
Everyone, may choose to find another topic - although apparently you have not.
Condractory and hypocritical direction is just like the Governing Body of JWs. Tell the people to examine and search for truth unless it means looking outside JWs. Point the finger and flaws in other religions, but ignore their own. Tell the people what to do, how to do it, when to do it.
Condractory = Contradictory
"Jesus is enough of a leader thanks. But feel free to choose to be led by a group of men in Brooklyn. "
Then act like he is your leader and not be against people.
Voice of Reason said... Then act like he is your leader and not be against people.
I do. Unfortunately JW's are taught they are special chosen ones only 7 Million out of 7 Billion people on the Earth that God gives his blessing and approval. That is not a message of love but a message of hate.
Like Jesus, Chrisitans must stand firm fot the truth. They must stand against hyprocrisy and those who make false predictions such as can be found in the leaders of JWs.
Ronde wrote: "against people'
Yeah, your God hates Chinese people. You knock on everyone's doors but the Chinese (1 billion people, mind you) and tell them that everyone except JWs will soon be slaughtered wholesale by Jesus Christ, the Great Executioner.
I believe that qualifies JWs as being "against people".
Again, what does Jehovah have against Chinese people?
"Jackie chan said...what does Jehovah have against Chinese people?"
The answer is nothing. Jehovah is a God of love, and does not desire anyone to be destroyed.
God would never destroy people who did not know any better; he could look at their hearts. Also, remember what happened at Nineveh. At the last minute, the majority repented. Could there be a modern day parallel?
It remains to be seen. We do not know exactly what will happen, except that what is right will be done. After all, it is in Jehovah and Jesus hands.
sheeplike said...It remains to be seen. We do not know exactly what will happen, except that what is right will be done. After all, it is in Jehovah and Jesus hands.
Is that what the Watchtower has been teaching its followers? Will Only Jehovah's Witnesses Be Saved?
The Watchtower Society teaches that only Jehovah's Witnesses have Gods backing and only Jehovah's Witnesses will survive Armageddon.
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Watchtower 1989 Sep. 1 p.19:
"Only Jehovah's Witnesses, those of the anointed remnant and the "great crowd," as a united organization under the protection of the Supreme Organizer, have any Scriptural hope of surviving the impending end of this doomed system dominated by Satan the Devil."
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Watchtower 1983 Feb. 15 p.12:
"Similarly, Jehovah is using only one organization today to accomplish his will. To receive everlasting life in the earthly Paradise we must identify that organization and serve God as part of it."
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Watchtower 2001 June 1 p.16:
"Is it presumptuous of Jehovah's Witnesses to point out that they alone have God's backing? Actually, no more so than when the Israelites in Egypt claimed to have God's backing in spite of the Egyptians' belief, or when the first-century Christians claimed to have God's backing to the exclusion of Jewish religionists."
The Watchtower 1993 October 1 p.19 went as far as to state that there are billions in line for destruction:
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The Watchtower 1993 October 1 p.19:
"There are billions of people who do not know Jehovah. Many of them in ignorance practice things that God's Word shows to be wicked. If they persist in this course, they will be among those who perish during the great tribulation."
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Watchtower 1981 Nov. 15 p.21:
"Come to Jehovah's organization for salvation"
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Watchtower 2007 Aug. 15 p.26:
"Those who will form the nucleus of the "new earth", a new earthly society of rightly disposed people, are being gathered during these last days. They are already nearly seven million strong, in at least 235 lands and in some 100,000 congregations. These millions have been learning the righteous and just ways of Jehovah, and as a result, worldwide they enjoy a unity that is cemented by Christian love. Their unity is the most pronounced and enduring in the history of the world, a unity exceeding anything experienced by Satan's subjects."
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Watchtower 1985 Mar. 1 p.14:
"Only Christian witnesses of Jehovah who successfully pass this test will survive and come forth like fire-refined gold for God's use in his precious new order".
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Watchtower 1981 Nov. 15 p.21:
"And while now the witness yet includes the invitation to come to Jehovah's organization for salvation. … Unless we are in touch with this channel of communication that God is using, we will not progress along the road to life, no matter how much Bible reading we do."
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Watchtower 2001 Feb. 15 p. 14:
"In fact, with God's day of judgment so near today, all the world should 'keep silent before the Sovereign Lord Jehovah' and hear what he says through the "little flock" of Jesus' anointed followers and their companions, his "other sheep." (Luke 12:32; John 10:16) Annihilation awaits all who will not listen and who thereby set themselves against rule by God's Kingdom."
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You Can Live Forever in Paradise on Earth p.255:
"Do not conclude that there are different roads, or ways, that you can follow to gain life in God's new system. There is only one. There was just one ark that survived the Flood, not a number of boats. And there will be only one organization- God's visible organization - that will survive the fast-approaching "great tribulation." It is simply not true that all religions lead to the same goal . . . . You must be part of Jehovah's organization, doing God's will, in order to receive his blessing of everlasting life …."
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Just a small sample of what JWs are constantly fed regarding who will be saved. sheeplike, good for you for thinking on your own about the matter! Unfortnately, the so-called spirtual food JWs Witnesses receive is not as loving and understanding.
"The Watchtower Society teaches that only Jehovah's Witnesses have Gods backing and only Jehovah's Witnesses will survive Armageddon."
Whether the WTS teaches, that or not, that is a true statement.
Voice of Reason said...
"The Watchtower Society teaches that only Jehovah's Witnesses have Gods backing and only Jehovah's Witnesses will survive Armageddon."
Whether the WTS teaches, that or not, that is a true statement.
You are certainly entitled to your opinion. It still does not make it truth or fact.
Voice of Reason said..."Whether the WTS teaches, that or not..."
Dude are you blind? Could you not read the WT quotes? That's what the WT teaches...Jeez.
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