Sunday, November 2, 2008

United States Branch Statistics Direct From The Service Desk

615 circuits
47 districts (35 English, 12 Spanish)
157 Spanish circuits
3,270 Spanish congregations
280,000 Spanish-speaking publishers (Only Mexico has more Spanish publishers)
As of September 1, 2008 there were 12,652 congregations; 4.6 new congregations formed per WEEK
41 Assembly Halls - West Palm Beach, Florida is the largest; Bessemer, Alabama the smallest (1,001 seats)
306 District Conventions in the U.S. This year with 1,500,000 attending; almost 13,000 baptized (too bad they don't print the numbers of those who left the organization).
115 Regional Building Committees; with 131,000 volunteers who worked on 938 Kingdom Halls
A side note here: Tennessee RBC #1 had 900 volunteers a year ago. A year after the 5 brothers on the RBC were killed in a plane crash we now have over 1,400 volunteers.
The Purchasing Department has moved from Brooklyn to Wallkill, NY.
The Convention Office is now at Patterson, NY
MEPS will be moving to Patterson shortly
1,300 Bethelites have been reassigned (these are the ones that were kicked out of Bethel) with 470 now serving as Special Pioneers (and many of these Special Pioneers are elderly and very unhappy. They thought they would be able to always live in the Bethel home. Sad.)
There are about 30 "Desk Men" in the Service Department who handle the needs of 25-30 cicuits each.

101 comments:

Anonymous said...

I would like to know how many partook from the emblems at the memorial this year. Do anybody know? My circuit's oversee said unfortunately the number had increased from 31 to 37 this year in Sweden. Maybe GB is shocked by an increase and do not know what to do. But I prayed and asked Jehovah to give boldness to all anointed to take from the symbols. And the number increased. I've also asked Jehovah, the God Allmighty in the name of Jesus Christ, our Lord, to cause a finance crunch. And it occures!

Anonymous said...

I left this message in the previous GBL post (topic) but it was ignored. I will try again...

The first post (or article) on this blog was Oct.4, 2007. There have been 244 (NOW 245) posts in total. And yet I have NEVER seen one post by the author of this blog that was positive. Have Jehovah Witnesses never done anything positive in the over 125 years of their existance? When I was young, I was taught by my parents that if you had a complaint about a person, you first had to say something postive about that person. This practice actually keeps things objective and honest. When I constantly hear someone running down or critizing another it makes me wonder about the moral integrity of that person. What I find interesting is, there are those that will find points in this post to critize and there will be others that will somehow use these points to critize Jehovah's Witnesses and yet will any of these that are so quick to critize be willing to say anything positive about Jehovah's Witnesses?
I guess we will see.....

Anonymous said...

And by the way that should be "criticize" not "critize". I want to clear that up before someone criticizes me!!!

LOL !!!!

Sheeplike said...

Anonymous said "I've also asked Jehovah, the God Allmighty in the name of Jesus Christ, our Lord, to cause a finance crunch. And it occures!"

Why would you do that?

Voice of Reason said...

They don't publish the numbers of those that left the organization because people don't leave the organization. There are those that stop publishing but they have not left the organization.

And I do not believe that these are stats direct from the US branch service desk.

I know where you got that info from and there is some disinformation in there to track where it came from.

Voice of Reason said...

anon#2.

I didn't ignore your message. I appreciated it.

This GBletters, aka theocratic joker, is a joke and a fraud. Whatelse can frauds do?

steve said...

'The first post (or article) on this blog was Oct.4, 2007. There have been 244 (NOW 245) posts in total. And yet I have NEVER seen one post by the author of this blog that was positive. Have Jehovah Witnesses never done anything positive in the over 125 years of their existance? When I was young, I was taught by my parents that if you had a complaint about a person, you first had to say something postive about that person. This practice actually keeps things objective and honest. When I constantly hear someone running down or critizing another it makes me wonder about the moral integrity of that person. What I find interesting is, there are those that will find points in this post to critize and there will be others that will somehow use these points to critize Jehovah's Witnesses and yet will any of these that are so quick to critize be willing to say anything positive about Jehovah's Witnesses?'

Do Jehovah's Witnesses ever say anything positive about other faiths?

The only positive thing I can say is that many individual JWs are good, well meaning, sincere individuals. They are putting their heart and soul into serving a publishing company who have been able to perfect control techniques to keep them there.

The hierarchy, on the other hand are devious, economical with the truth, and they have never apologized for any of their mistakes, some of which have led to death and unnecessary hardship and suffering for the members.

Why do they deserve any label other than how they themselves label every other organization on earth? (Except the UN when they were having to print favourable articles about the UN due to their involvement with them).

And you may have observed that this blog is dedicated to exposing the untruth of the JW belief system, whether it is the hierarchy's hypocrisy or the JW misinterpretation of scripture.

Go to their official site if you want to be spoonfed their version of things and how wonderful life is in the spiritual paradise.

Voice of Reason said...

"Do Jehovah's Witnesses ever say anything positive about other faiths?"

Yes. I do. But that's not the point. This joker is making up things just to be negative. Negative campaign advertising. People don't like that.

"The only positive thing I can say is that many individual JWs are good, well meaning, sincere individuals. They are putting their heart and soul into serving a publishing company who have been able to perfect control techniques to keep them there."

No, JWs are serving Jehovah. And there is nothing wrong with with being controlled by the WTBTS.

"The hierarchy, on the other hand are devious, economical with the truth, and they have never apologized for any of their mistakes, some of which have led to death and unnecessary hardship and suffering for the members."

No need to apologize and no suffering has been caused. People make their own choices.

Anonymous said...

So is it the concensus then that Jehovah's Witnesses as an organization have not done a single good thing in over 125 years????

To be truly objective wouldn't one need to consider ALL the evidence good and bad? And yet, I have never seen anything good written about Jehovah's Witnesses by the author of this blog. That makes me question the objectivity of the this blog's author.

Even media (newspapers, t.v or radio) when reporting on Witnesses report things that Witnesses have done good as well as the things they have done wrong.

Is it really so hard to admit that they have done something good in all that time? Not one single thing? Really???

Wow, I find that hard to believe!

Anonymous said...

The author of this blog is right, anyone that claims to be used by God shouldn’t make any serious mistakes. Why would God use someone like that?

He would never use someone that lied, cheated with another man’s wife, murdered others or ignored his direct commands…….
Oh wait, that was King David.

Or he would never use someone that had trouble with his temper and actually killed another…..
Oh wait, that was Moses

Or he would never use someone that actually killed his prophets, forced people to not worship him and actually make people kill their children to appease other gods….
Oh wait that was King Manasseh

Or he would never use one that got drunk so bad that he wasn’t even aware that his own daughters were having sex with him….
Oh wait that was Lot

Or he would never use one that was a womanizer and could easily be controlled by sex…
Oh wait that was Samson

Or he would never use one that couldn’t control his family; or have son’s that had sex with prostitutes….
Oh wait that was Eli

Or he would never use one that was so overzealous that he was concerned about end of times dates or always made decisions before thinking things through or discriminated others because of their ethnic background….
Oh wait that was Peter

Or he would never use someone that had an attitude problem and always wanted to be considered greater than others….
Oh wait that was all of Jesus’ disciples

Why would God use anyone like that?
I guess it was not the messenger that was important but rather the message.

I wonder if that’s true today….

*** w58 6/15 p. 375 par. 35 Be Balanced in All Things ***
35 Another factor in cultivating a right mental attitude is being able to overlook imperfections in the Christian organization and faults in fellow Christians. Although God’s spirit operates on the organization, it does not govern every decision and every movement of the human overseers. These men are free moral agents who are left to make decisions they feel are best for the New World society. They are mature Christians who are capable of letting God’s Word and its principles guide them in making wise decisions. But if one should mistakenly make an unwise decision, that should be no reason for a person to become disgruntled and sour. It should not cause him to criticize the whole organization because of this one overseer. It is no reason to become cynical. A well-balanced Christian will overlook mistakes and imperfections. He will remember that he is serving God, not men. And he will remember that except for Christ God has always used imperfect men to care for his interests in the earth. These have been men with a good heart condition and with a zealous desire to advance divine interests. Being imperfect, some have made mistakes, but their mistakes are no reason for a person to reject the theocratic organization and go back to the world. It has the words of life, not the world.

Hmmmm.... Interesting....

Shawn said...

Anonymous said...

So is it the concensus then that Jehovah's Witnesses as an organization have not done a single good thing in over 125 years????

To be truly objective wouldn't one need to consider ALL the evidence good and bad?

===================================

That's a fallacy. If an organization like the Watchtower Society is actually running a cult, then it doesn't matter what good things they have done. If you help put a roof on someone's house after a disaster but you also tell people to refuse life-saving medical treatment so that they die, then it doesn't matter.

If someone were to help an old lady across the street on his way to rob a bank, the judge would not give him a lighter sentence because he was not committing crimes most of that day.

No one is under any obligation to speak well of the Watchtower Society in order to also lay bare their crimes... besides, they are doing quite well at telling the world how good they are.

Anonymous said...

'He would never use someone that lied, cheated with another man’s wife, murdered others or ignored his direct commands…….
Oh wait, that was King David.

Or he would never use someone that had trouble with his temper and actually killed another…..
Oh wait, that was Moses

Or he would never use someone that actually killed his prophets, forced people to not worship him and actually make people kill their children to appease other gods….
Oh wait that was King Manasseh

Or he would never use one that got drunk so bad that he wasn’t even aware that his own daughters were having sex with him….
Oh wait that was Lot

Or he would never use one that was a womanizer and could easily be controlled by sex…
Oh wait that was Samson

Or he would never use one that couldn’t control his family; or have son’s that had sex with prostitutes….
Oh wait that was Eli

Or he would never use one that was so overzealous that he was concerned about end of times dates or always made decisions before thinking things through or discriminated others because of their ethnic background….
Oh wait that was Peter'

All the above would never be used by Jehovah's Witnesses because they would have disfellowshipped their asses.

Shawn said...

Hey VoR,
You still haven't answered a simple question about your faith...

"So how are the interpretations in 1995 and the previous 'people alive in 1914' interpretations refinements? They are completely different interpretations, now viewed as completely wrong."


I thought you were on these blogs as a form of field service? Answer the question. I don't think you know anything about what it means to be one of Jehovah's Witnesses. All you do is cast aspersions and quote from TV shows and science fiction movies... oh yeah, and use the word 'thus' a lot, presumably in an attempt to sound scholarly.

So what's it going to be VoR? Either you answer the question in bold above or just look like some clown who doesn't get out much. I'm actually wondering if we're your only friends.

Shawn said...

Voice of Reason said...

"Do Jehovah's Witnesses ever say anything positive about other faiths?"

Yes. I do. But that's not the point. This joker is making up things just to be negative. Negative campaign advertising. People don't like that.

Prove that these claims are made up. Refute his claims with evidence the way he backs his claims up with evidence. Otherwise, you are the one who's making stuff up.

"The only positive thing I can say is that many individual JWs are good, well meaning, sincere individuals. They are putting their heart and soul into serving a publishing company who have been able to perfect control techniques to keep them there."

No, JWs are serving Jehovah. And there is nothing wrong with with being controlled by the WTBTS.

All right! You're another step closer. Admitting that the Watchtower Society is a controlling organization is an important first step to realizing that they have no scriptural right to control anyone.

"The hierarchy, on the other hand are devious, economical with the truth, and they have never apologized for any of their mistakes, some of which have led to death and unnecessary hardship and suffering for the members."

No need to apologize and no suffering has been caused. People make their own choices.

Here's a heartwarming tale from your friends the Watchtower Society...


*** g94 5/22 pp. 9-10 Youths Who Have “Power Beyond What Is Normal” ***

Now she was in the Valley Children’s Hospital in Fresno, California, U.S.A. She had been admitted there for what appeared to be a kidney infection. Tests revealed, however, that she had leukemia. The doctors treating Lenae determined that packed red blood cells and platelets should be transfused and chemotherapy started immediately.

Lenae said that she wanted no blood or blood products, that she had been taught that God forbids that, as shown in the Bible books of Leviticus and Acts. “For the holy spirit and we ourselves have favored adding no further burden to you, except these necessary things, to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication.” (Acts 15:28, 29) Her parents supported her in this stand, but Lenae stressed that it was her decision and it was very important to her.

The doctors talked several times with Lenae and her parents. Even so, they came again one afternoon. Lenae said concerning this visit: “I was feeling very weak from all the pain and had been vomiting a lot of blood. They asked me the same questions, only in a different way. I told them again: ‘I don’t want any blood or blood products. I would rather accept death, if necessary, than to break my promise to Jehovah God to do his will.’”

Lenae continued: “They were back the next morning. The platelets were dropping, and my fever was still high. I could tell the doctor listened to me more this time. Even though they didn’t like my stand, they did say I was a very mature 12-year-old. Later my pediatrician came in and told me he was sorry but nothing would help me but the chemotherapy and transfusions. He left and said he would be back later.

“When he left, I started to cry very hard because he had taken care of me all my life, and now I felt like he was betraying me. When he came in later, I told him how he had made me feel—that he didn’t care about me anymore. This surprised him, and he said he was sorry. He did not mean to hurt me. He looked at me and said: ‘Well, Lenae, if that is the way it has to be, then I will see you in heaven.’ He took his glasses off and, with big tears in his eyes, said he loved me and gave me a big hug. I thanked him and said: ‘Thank you. I love you too, Dr. Gillespie, but I hope to live on a paradise earth in the resurrection.’”

Then two doctors and a lawyer came, told Lenae’s parents that they wanted to talk to her alone, and asked the parents to leave, which they did. Through all this discussion, the doctors had been very considerate and kind and were impressed with Lenae’s articulate way of speaking and her deep conviction.

When alone with her, they told her that she was dying of leukemia and said: “But blood transfusions will prolong your life. If you refuse blood, you will die in a few days.”

“If I take blood,” Lenae asked, “how long will that prolong my life?”

“About three to six months,” they answered.

“What can I do in six months?” she asked.

“You will get strong. You can do many things. You can visit Disney World. You can see many other places.”

Lenae thought a bit, then answered: “I have served Jehovah all my life, 12 years. He has promised me everlasting life in Paradise if I obey him. I will not turn away from him now for six months of life. I want to be faithful until I die. Then I know in his due time he will resurrect me from death and give me everlasting life. Then I will have plenty of time for everything I want to do.”

The doctors and the lawyer were visibly impressed. They commended her and went out and told her parents that she thinks and talks like an adult and is able to make her own decisions. They recommended to the ethics committee of the Valley Children’s Hospital that Lenae be viewed as a mature minor. This committee, made up of doctors and other health-care professionals, along with a professor of ethics from Fresno State University, made the decision to allow Lenae to make her own decisions with regard to her medical treatment. They considered Lenae a mature minor. No court order was sought.

After a long, difficult night, at 6:30 a.m., September 22, 1993, Lenae fell asleep in death in the arms of her mother.
***


There's nothing but suffering and heartache in this story. An innocent 12 year old girl suffers and dies due to a leukemia related kidney infection. I love how the article says that her parents 'supported' her decision to refuse life-saving medical treatment. Twelve is way below the any age of consent. This wasn't 'support' from her parents, it was child abuse. What kind of parents would let their children die in their arms when there was help available? Parents who have given their minds over to a cult that tells them to refuse to let their children receive the medical treatment they need.

VoR, you still haven't answered the question posted above and repeated here for your convenience...

"So how are the interpretations in 1995 and the previous 'people alive in 1914' interpretations refinements? They are completely different interpretations, now viewed as completely wrong."

Anonymous said...

To the JW apologist that wants me to acknowledge the good things that JWs do...

Will you please acknowledge all of the many wonderful things that the Catholic Church is doing? The orphanges, soup kitchens, shelters and practical things benefiting manking, being carried out by the Catholic Church are overwhelming in their size and scope.

Your JW publications use an illustration about a glass of drinking water with a single drop of poison.

Do you see where I'm headed with this?

I suspect you will dismiss the Cathlic Church, out of hand, despite the great magnitude of chartible works it performs.

Do these charitable works equal approval from God?

If JWs are not preaching the CORRECT message from the Bible, the scope of their work is meaningless.

I've never met a JW that was impressed by the preaching of the Mormons. Why? JWs dismiss their MESSAGE.

Voice of Reason said...

"To the JW apologist that wants me to acknowledge the good things that JWs do...
Will you please acknowledge all of the many wonderful things that the Catholic Church is doing? "

This is not a competition, of the JWs vs everyone else.

It is a matter that we, as a united people are doing what we can to serve Jehovah. Others can join us. But if others are doing good by man, then so be it. More power to them. But as for me and my household, we shall serve Jehovah.

Truth be Known said...

Thank you Shawn for debating VOR (previously Ronde) with intelligent posts and documented proof that backs you up.

You are helping people to see right through JW apologists (esp. Ronde).

And, yes, isn't it true. How JW's point out EVERYTHING negative about other religions, BUT when their theology is "proved" wrong, they take it very personally.

No one is saying the individual JW's are necessarily bad (except for the bad ones, i.e. pedophiles, etc.).

It's the leaders (aka Governing Body) that have shirked their responsiblity of apologizing for their misleading statements, such as you'll never go to school or need to prepare yourself for a career in this system (i.e. education beyond H.S.) as the end is coming in 1975. Some even dropped out of High School because they "thought" this was the right thing to do based on what the organization was telling them!

And, so many who became a JW after 1975 were told that JW's never taught that.

Boy, was that a whopper of a lie!

I know it's very difficult for current (and esp. the active) JW's to accept this, but the claim that their religion is the ONLY true religion is NOT true.

Thanks again Shawn for putting Ronde in his place - he is one loose canon.

Lastly, if people wonder why such sites exists it's BECAUSE the leaders of JW's have had something to hide. Ask yourself a question, 'Why are there so many sites with DOCUMENTED EVIDENCE of the errors, pedophilia, and misleading claims from this religious organization? (You sure won't hear about these issues in a public talk or in a Watchtower article because they are so damning and would cause EVEN MORE to leave in a hurry!)

Anonymous said...

VOR (alias Ronde) said: "But as for me and my household, we shall serve Jehovah."

It should read, "But as for me and my household, we shall serve men, namely the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses."

Sorry, just had to correct you Ronde as that is the reality, despite what you have said and what you contine to say.

You are serving men who say they are hand-picked by God. Well, all of their mistakes over 100 years have PROVEN that that is NOT the case.

Listen... start reviewing these sites with an open mind. Try it... because the facts are indisputable:

www.jwfacts.com
www.sixscreensofthewatchtower.com
www.freeminds.org

Set your JW teachings aside and read it like you were reading it for the first time - esp. looking at the documented items. Then compare what you have read with what you were/are taught. The impact of REAL truth may be just too much for you to handle - it is for many JW's, believe me.

Shawn said...

Voice of Reason said...

"To the JW apologist that wants me to acknowledge the good things that JWs do...
Will you please acknowledge all of the many wonderful things that the Catholic Church is doing? "

This is not a competition, of the JWs vs everyone else.

It is a matter that we, as a united people are doing what we can to serve Jehovah. Others can join us. But if others are doing good by man, then so be it. More power to them. But as for me and my household, we shall serve Jehovah.

==================================

For the fourth time, VoR, you still haven't answered a simple question about your faith...

"So how are the interpretations in 1995 and the previous 'people alive in 1914' interpretations refinements? They are completely different interpretations, now viewed as completely wrong."

I guess you can't do it. You say you're doing what you can to serve Jehovah and yet you can't seem to answer a simple question about the doctrine of your faith?

Truth be Known said...

I'm waiting for this response too because I'm sure it will prove even more that JW's are not the sole possessors of Biblical truth. (Keep up the good work Shawn!)

Anonymous said...

All I can say is THANK GOD FOR THE INTERNET. It is freeing people from the GB's grip of fear and intimidation of dieing at Armeggedon if you're not following the leadership of men.

And, it also frees people from the false hope of the new order being VERY SOON NOW. That has caused people to place their lives on hold with some dire consequences (physically, finacially, emotionally, etc.).

Voice of Reason said...

"we shall serve men, namely the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses.""

Oh, grow up.

If that is what you want to do, then do it.

But I don't speak for the rest of JWs but I don't do that. There is no serving of men.

Voice of Reason said...

"It is freeing people from the GB's grip of fear and intimidation of dieing at Armeggedon if you're not following the leadership of men."

What are you talking about?

What grip of fear and intimidation? I have no fear of the GB and am not intimidated by them. They are just people.

As for dying at armageddon. Yes, apostates will die then, and it is not from not following men, it is because they are against God.

Voice of Reason said...

"So how are the interpretations in 1995 and the previous 'people alive in 1914' interpretations refinements? They are completely different interpretations, now viewed as completely wrong."

They are refined because they are less crude because we know and understand more. And the prior ones are not viewed as completely wrong. They are placed equally.

Shawn said...

Voice of Reason said...

"we shall serve men, namely the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses.""

Oh, grow up.

If that is what you want to do, then do it.

But I don't speak for the rest of JWs but I don't do that. There is no serving of men.

=================================

Fine, you don't serve men. Answer the following question...

"So how are the interpretations in 1995 and the previous 'people alive in 1914' interpretations refinements? They are completely different interpretations, now viewed as completely wrong."

Feel free to use only the Bible to answer the question and show us all how you're not some slave to the governing body.

Aren't you embarrassed yet? You've failed to even attempt to answer the question five times now.

Voice of Reason said...

"Aren't you embarrassed yet? You've failed to even attempt to answer the question five times now. "


No, I am not embarrassed. You can't do such a thing.

FYI, JWs don't care about the generation thing.

Anonymous said...

Ronde wrote: "I have no fear of the GB and am not intimidated by them. They are just people"

Like sheep being led to the slaughter...scary stuff.

If you watch the 'Exit Videos' of the Heaven's Gate cult, you see the same attitude displayed by members, just before they killed themselves. They looked upon their leaders as having special insight. No matter how crazy the directions from the leaders would become, they would blindly follow. Same with the JWs. No matter how bizarre the UNIQUE INTERPRETATION of the Bible as dictated in the Watchtower magazine becomes, they blindly follow.

Cult members are incapable from feeling intimidated, because they believe "God is love" and their religious leaders are God's representatives. Therefore, to admit they are intimidate or to feel that way, would mean being disloyal to God. Therefore, they adjust their thinking so that what is not real, becomes real.

Cognitive Dissonance is what it's called.

Again, read the Bible, not the Watchtower. Pray for wisdom. Examine your faith and test it.

http://www.jwfacts.com/

Shawn said...

Voice of Reason said...

"So how are the interpretations in 1995 and the previous 'people alive in 1914' interpretations refinements? They are completely different interpretations, now viewed as completely wrong."

They are refined because they are less crude because we know and understand more. And the prior ones are not viewed as completely wrong. They are placed equally.

==================================

But these views aren't 'less crude', they're completely different. How can they all be equal? First the 'generation' was defined as those who were alive and able to comprehend the events of 1914. Then the 'generation' was defined as anyone who was alive. Then it was before the end of the 20th century. Now there are almost no people alive who were alive then so the generation isn't even about people anymore.

If all of these views are equal and valid, then 'the end' would have happened by now.

This definition gets more and more fuzzy every year. Please tell us where the Bible tells us about this generation being in our day.

Doesn't it make more sense that the 'faithful and discreet slave' is just making this stuff up?

Anonymous said...

Ronde wrote: "JWs don't care about the generation thing"

This is true. They want to bury their heads in the sand, so as not to confront the fact that they follow what the Bible refers to as False Prophets.

When their teachings are discarded or their prophecies fail, they want to pretend as if they never existed.

This is typical cult behavior.

No false prophet can insist their prophecies are true -- the day after they fail.

1975? "We never said that."

Most JWs under the age of 30 cannot explain to you the 1975 false prophecy. They've only heard whispers of it. They have no idea that it was being hyped by the Governing Body and District Convention speakers.

Shawn said...

Voice of Reason said...

"Aren't you embarrassed yet? You've failed to even attempt to answer the question five times now. "


No, I am not embarrassed. You can't do such a thing.

FYI, JWs don't care about the generation thing.

==================================

Oh but they do!

*** w88 10/15 p. 4 The Sign—Are You Heeding It? ***

Might it be, though, that the sign could occur over the span of many human generations? No. The sign is to occur during one particular generation. The same generation that witnessed the beginning of the sign will also witness its climax in “a tribulation such as has not occurred from the beginning of the creation.” Three historians, Matthew, Mark, and Luke, recorded Jesus’ assurance of this.—Mark 13:19, 30; Matthew 24:13, 21, 22, 34; Luke 21:28, 32.

There is, however, the danger of becoming impatient. Seventy-four years have passed since the outbreak of World War I in 1914. From a human viewpoint, this may seem a very long time. But some eagle-eyed Christians who saw World War I are still very much alive. Their generation has not passed away.
***

*** w86 10/15 p. 7 A Change of Rulership—Soon! ***

Having started in 1914, “the time of the end” is now well advanced. Jesus said that the generation that saw the beginning of that time would also see its end. (Matthew 24:32-34) We are, therefore, rapidly approaching that glorious time when Christ Jesus will fully take over rulership of earth’s affairs and unite all obedient mankind under his one government.
***

*** w83 4/15 p. 4 The Black Horse of Famine ***

When is this sign fulfilled? When, particularly, does the famine-bearing horseman ride through the earth? For many years Jehovah’s Witnesses have made known that it is the generation that saw the year 1914 that has witnessed the results of the horseman’s passing
***

*** w82 5/1 p. 15 par. 11 God’s Kingdom ‘Comes’—When? ***

11 At that time of the start of Christ’s presence, or parousia, he was unseen by human eyes. But that generation of 1914 certainly did see what happened here on earth as a “sign” of his presence and as “a beginning of sorrows” for mankind! (Matthew 24:8, Authorized Version) And the remaining ones of that generation of 1914 are still talking about it. Some of them will be talking about it right down to the time when the “great tribulation” wipes Satan’s wicked system of things off the face of our globe. For Jesus Christ himself assures us: “Truly I say to you that this generation [the generation that saw the ‘beginning of pangs of distress’ in 1914] will by no means pass away [completely] until all these things occur. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will by no means pass away.”—Matthew 24:3, 8, 34, 35.
***

*** w81 2/15 p. 10 Insight on the News ***

Hence, another respected authority adds his voice to those of numerous statesmen and historians who, in looking back, recognized the significance of the year 1914. Yet, decades before that year arrived, dedicated students of Bible prophecy were able to identify 1914 as a climactic turning point. (The “Bible Examiner,” October 1876, pp. 27, 28) These Bible prophecies also reveal that the “generation” that saw the events beginning in 1914 would also see the “conclusion of the system of things.”—Matt. 24:3, 7-22, 32-35.
***

*** w81 11/15 p. 11 par. 3 “Peace and Security!”—Then “Sudden Destruction” ***

3 Jesus foretold that some of those who were alive when the “last days” began would live to see this system’s end. Already 67 years have passed since the “generation” of 1914 saw the start of these troubles. (Matt. 24:34) So time has nearly run out on this “crooked and twisted generation.” (Phil. 2:15) Shortly we may be eyewitnesses of the fulfillment of the many Bible prophecies related to ‘the passing away of this world.’ (1 John 2:17) And we can have complete confidence that these prophecies will be fulfilled in every detail. Jehovah, “the One telling from the beginning the finale,” the One who has inspired these prophecies, “has sworn, saying: ‘Surely just as I have figured, so it must occur; and just as I have counseled, that is what will come true.’”—Isa. 14:24; 46:10; 2 Pet. 1:20, 21.
***

*** w81 12/1 p. 8 Could Christ Return Without Being Seen? ***

On the other hand, millions of persons around the world have come to recognize Christ’s presence since the eventful year 1914. Although they know that wars, famines and earthquakes have been common to many generations, they recognize that no other generation experienced even one world war, let alone two. No previous generation has gained the potential virtually to destroy human society. Although they know that Christ’s prophecy had a minor fulfillment prior to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 C.E., they also realize that the wording of the prophecy pointed to something more. The many facets of the sign Jesus foretold are apparent now, and some of the generation that saw the start of these calamities in 1914 are still with us.—Matt. 24:34.
***

*** w80 7/1 p. 4 Keep Watching! ***

At least some of the generation that saw the start of this age of lawlessness in 1914 are expecting to “be around” when it ends. That will be at the time of the fulfillment of Daniel 2:44, with regard to the “kings” or rulers who now selfishly struggle for world domination: “In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom . . . will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite.” The nuclear weapons of the nations will prove useless when pitted against the overwhelming might of God’s kingdom by Christ Jesus. This “King of kings” will judge the nations righteously, destroying the wicked and preserving those meek ones who have kept on the watch. How marvelous will be the Kingdom blessings to follow! “The meek ones themselves will possess the earth, and they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace.”—Ps. 37:10, 11; Rev. 19:11-21.
***

*** w80 10/15 p. 31 Questions From Readers ***

What, then, is the “generation” that “will by no means pass away until all these things occur”? It does not refer to a period of time, which some have tried to interpret as 30, 40, 70 or even 120 years, but, rather, it refers to people, the people living at the “beginning of pangs of distress” for this condemned world system. It is the generation of people who saw the catastrophic events that broke forth in connection with World War I from 1914 onward.

As indicated by an article on page 56 of U.S. News & World Report of January 14, 1980, “If you assume that 10 is the age at which an event creates a lasting impression on a person’s memory,” then there are today more than 13 million Americans who have a “recollection of World War I.” And if the wicked system of this world survived until the turn of the century, which is highly improbable in view of world trends and the fulfillment of Bible prophecy, there would still be survivors of the World War I generation. However, the fact that their number is dwindling is one more indication that “the conclusion of the system of things” is moving fast toward its end.

In this connection, the magazine The Economist of March 15, 1980, gave an interesting review of a book entitled “The Generation of 1914” by Robert Wohl. It made this significant remark: “Eventually Mr. Wohl voices his own opinions about the generation of 1914. In a terse and condensed last chapter he suggests that generations are not mathematically definable in terms of numbers of years, but cluster around major historical crises, of which the first world war is the supreme example.” This lines up very well with the Scriptural viewpoint that Jehovah’s Witnesses take on “the generation of 1914.”

Yes, there was a generation of people that was living in 1914, and that saw the major historical changes from an era of comparative tranquillity to the present era of war, lawlessness and ruination. Many who are now Jehovah’s Witnesses were among them. Truly, 1914 marked “the supreme example” of change, for that year set in motion the foretold “beginning of pangs of distress” among the nations. Many persons are still alive who can tell us how catastrophically conditions on earth changed in the year 1914. And the world continues to plunge into worse and worse trouble. We can be happy, therefore, for Jesus’ assurance that there will be survivors of “the generation of 1914”—that this generation will not have completely passed away—when the “great tribulation” rings down the curtain on this wicked world system.
***

*** ws chap. 2 p. 16 par. 8 The “Prince of Peace” Faces Armageddon ***

8 The issue of world domination must be settled soon. Now, more than 70 years after the end of “the appointed times of the nations” in 1914, we are deep into this “conclusion of the system of things.” The generation of 1914 saw the start of the meaningful world events foretold by Jesus. (Matthew 24:3-14) That generation, Jesus said, would not pass away until all these things would be fulfilled. It is now very close to finishing its course.—Matthew 24:34.
***

*** go chap. 9 pp. 155-156 par. 17 The “Sign” of Imminence of the World Government ***

17 Those of the “chosen ones” alive today who witnessed the outbreak of World War I in 1914 can recall how we all rejoiced because we saw “these things start to occur.” We knew that the newly enthroned Christ was “near at the doors” for his executional work against this wicked “system of things.” We exulted because “the kingdom of God is near” for taking over full world control and functioning as a world government. We have not grown tired of being reminded over and over again during these past sixty years and more that the Messianic kingdom of God is “near at the doors.” This reminding of us has not grown stale and lost its potency and soul-stirring force toward us. We know that we are of the “generation” that saw the start of these things in 1914 at the close of the Gentile Times, and we believe Jesus’ assurance that this same “generation” of ours will see the finish of these significant things, all this culminating in the total take-over by the triumphant Kingdom of all human affairs.
***

*** tr chap. 11 pp. 94-95 par. 3 The Last Days of This Wicked System of Things ***

3 Jesus had just referred to persons who would “see all these things.” “These things” are the events that have taken place since 1914 and those yet to occur down to the end of this wicked system. (Matthew 24:33) Persons born even as much as fifty years ago could not see “all these things.” They came on the scene after the foretold events were already under way. But there are people still living who were alive in 1914 and saw what was happening then and who were old enough that they still remember those events. This generation is getting up in years now. A great number of them have already passed away in death. Yet Jesus very pointedly said: “This generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur.” Some of them will still be alive to see the end of this wicked system. This means that only a short time is left before the end comes! (Psalm 90:10 [89:10, Dy]) So now is the time to take urgent action if you do not want to be swept away with this wicked system.
***

*** su chap. 3 p. 25 par. 11 How Long Will the Present System Last? ***

11 Decades in advance it was known that this would come in 1914 at the end of the major fulfillment of the “seven times” of Daniel 4:10-17. But full realization of its significance came gradually during the years that followed. Progressively Bible students saw unfolding before their eyes details of the composite sign that Jesus said would indicate his heavenly presence in Kingdom power. It became evident that they had, indeed, entered “the conclusion of the system of things,” that Christ had begun to rule as King in 1914 and that the end of this wicked world would come within the generation that saw the beginning of these things.
***

*** Lmn pp. 26-27 par. 51 “Look! I Am Making All Things New” ***

51 Would you like to live in Paradise? If your answer is ‘Yes,’ you will be thrilled to know that when Jesus spoke of today’s troubled system and “the sign” of its approaching destruction, he added, “This generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur.” Some, at least, of the generation that saw the “beginning of pangs of distress” in 1914 will live to see Paradise restored on earth. (Matthew 24:3-8, 34) However, it is a sad fact that most people today are on the broad road that leads to destruction. (Matthew 7:13, 14) There is little time left for them to change. How thankful you can be that Jehovah has provided warning in time! Because Jehovah wants you to have life, he will help you to take the right steps.—2 Peter 3:9; Ezekiel 18:23.
***

*** op pp. 15-16 Our Problems—Who Will Help Us Solve Them? ***

So Jesus was saying that the generation of people who saw the warning sign would be the same generation that would see the complete end of this wicked world. In other words, some people who were living and aware of what was happening when the first part of the sign appeared in 1914 would still be alive when the end came.”
***

*** ku p. 15 par. 21 From Kurukshetra to Armageddon—and Your Survival ***

21 For how long will these “last days” continue? The Bible answers: “Likewise also you, when you see all these things, know that he is near at the doors. Truly I say to you that this generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur.” (Matthew 24:33, 34) In other words, that 1914 generation of people, now ‘dwindling in ranks,’ who saw the beginning of these distressing conditions, will still be alive when God’s war of Armageddon strikes. The duration of the “last days” is therefore limited to within the one human generation that was alive back in 1914. That generation of eyewitnesses is getting along in years now—in their 70’s and 80’s. Hence, the outbreak of Armageddon is getting dangerously near. Many lovers of righteousness throughout the world are now preparing for the outbreak of God’s unavoidable act of war.
***

*** gc p. 22 par. 29 Is There a God Who Cares? ***

29 Jesus also said regarding the generation of people who saw the beginning of the “last days” in 1914: “Truly I say to you that this generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur.” (Matthew 24:34) This means that some of the people who were alive when World War I began in 1914 would still be alive to witness the end of this present system of things. That World War I generation is getting very old now, and this is strong evidence that the end of wickedness is rapidly approaching.
***

*** km 8/74 p. 3 A Letter from People Who Care ***

We do not know the precise time—the “day and hour”—for the “great tribulation” to strike. The Bible shows that it will strike like a thief in the night, suddenly, at an unexpected hour. (Matt. 24:36, 42-44) While not knowing the exact time, we do know that God’s judgment is to be executed within the lifetime of the generation that saw the beginning of the “last days.” Jesus Christ said: “This generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur.” (Matt. 24:34) Accordingly, the generation of people that witnessed the events of 1914 C.E. is the one that will also see the “great tribulation.” Already nearly sixty years have passed. Those persons who were at an age of understanding in 1914 are diminishing in numbers. Clearly, then, the time for Jehovah God to act is near at hand.
***

*** g94 11/8 p. 10 The Real Significance of 1914 ***

AS INDICATED on page 4, “this magazine builds confidence in the Creator’s promise of a peaceful and secure new world before the generation that saw the events of 1914 passes away.”
***

*** km 10/93 p. 8 par. 1 Using Our Magazines From House to House ***

1 The purpose of Awake! is stated clearly on page 4 of each issue: “This magazine builds confidence in the Creator’s promise of a peaceful and secure new world before the generation that saw the events of 1914 passes away.” Certainly such a magazine deserves as wide a distribution as possible in our house-to-house ministry!
***

Jehovah's Witnesses were even told to warn people about how near the end was based on the generation that saw 1914...

*** km 4/82 p. 2 Meetings to Help Us Make Disciples ***

20 min: Topic for Conversation. Discussion and demonstration. Review both scriptures with audience and consider possible introductions and points to tie the two scriptures together. Have demonstration of suggested presentation. After short introduction publisher could say: “We are calling on our neighbors because we believe that you are concerned about the future just as we are. As you know, right at this moment the nations have missiles pointed at one another that could virtually wipe all of mankind off the face of the earth in a matter of minutes. Do you think man will eventually find a way to prevent this from happening? Or do you think the Creator of man will need to step in? [Allow for response; be ready to adapt comments.] It is interesting to realize that millions of people have been praying for a solution when they use the words of the well known ‘Lord’s prayer’ or the ‘Our Father’ prayer. [Read or quote Matthew 6:10.] This model prayer indicates that the kingdom of God is the real solution to man’s problems. Yet many people do not feel the Kingdom will come in our day. Can you think of a better time for it to come? Jesus prophetically described the critical conditions that exist today and then said these words recorded in Luke 21:31, 32. [Read.] So this generation that saw the start of the signs in 1914 will see God’s kingdom come and put an end to these distressing conditions. But who will rule in this kingdom? Will it have subjects on the earth? People have many questions in their minds about the Kingdom, and these need Bible answers. That is why this magazine has been published. Note its title, The Watchtower Announcing Jehovah’s Kingdom.” Then highlight a particular point in one of the articles and offer the subscription. Conclude part by encouraging all to share in first Sunday of the month activity, using Topic for Conversation in house-to-house work, and making calls to invite people to the Memorial on Thursday, April 8.
***


I'm confused here VoR. How has the 'light gotten brighter'? After reading these statements, how is it that the Watchtower Society wasn't just plain wrong?

Voice of Reason said...

Shawn,

Just as JWs don't care about the generation, they don't care about all of those things you quoted from.

Shawn said...

Voice of Reason said...

Shawn,

Just as JWs don't care about the generation, they don't care about all of those things you quoted from.

====================================

Great! So why be part of that organization if you don't pay attention to what they print? Even more importantly, why get baptized into that organization?

*** w85 6/1 p. 30 Subjecting Ourselves to Jehovah by Dedication ***

At the close of the convention baptism talk, the baptism candidates will be in position to answer with depth of understanding and heartfelt appreciation two simple questions that serve to confirm that they recognize the implications of following Christ’s example. The first question is:

On the basis of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, have you repented of your sins and dedicated yourself to Jehovah to do his will?

The second is:

Do you understand that your dedication and baptism identify you as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses in association with God’s spirit-directed organization?

Having answered yes to these questions, candidates are in a right heart condition to undergo Christian baptism.
***

The truth is, that JWs did indeed believe all of those things I quoted because it came from the 'faithful and discreet slave'.

*** w96 3/15 pp. 16-17 par. 9 Meeting the Challenge of Loyalty ***

9 We now come to the matter of being loyal to Jehovah’s visible organization. Certainly, we owe loyalty to it, including “the faithful and discreet slave,” through which the Christian congregation is fed spiritually. (Matthew 24:45-47)
***

*** wt chap. 3 p. 26 par. 7 Keep a Firm Grip on the Word of God ***

We should not think that we can figure out everything by independent research.
***

*** km 9/07 p. 3 Question Box ***

Thus, “the faithful and discreet slave” does not endorse any literature, meetings, or Web sites that are not produced or organized under its oversight.—Matt. 24:45-47.
***

So you see, Jehovah's Witnesses are not to believe anything but what the Watchtower Society tells them to believe.

Voice of Reason said...

"Even more importantly, why get baptized into that organization?"

Shawn,

People don't get baptized into the organization.

When people get baptized they become Christians and as a group they form an organization working together.

Do you have a problem working together with people?

Did you not share your blocks and trucks in kindergarten? Maybe you are repressing from your selfish childhood.

Voice of Reason said...

Shawn,

you are an idiot for taking things out of context. That is why we do not follow quotes from publications. We have the Word written on our hearts.

Voice of Reason said...

Shawn,

You should be working for the political candidates as you are good on the negative campaign ads and taking things out of context. You would make them proud.

Shawn said...

Voice of Reason said...

"Even more importantly, why get baptized into that organization?"

Shawn,

People don't get baptized into the organization.
====================================

I just gave you the baptismal questions that a person who wants to be one of Jehovah's Witnesses has to agree to...

*** w85 6/1 p. 30 Subjecting Ourselves to Jehovah by Dedication ***
The first question is:

On the basis of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, have you repented of your sins and dedicated yourself to Jehovah to do his will?

The second is:

Do you understand that your dedication and baptism identify you as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses in association with God’s spirit-directed organization?
***

JWs are not baptized in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. They are baptized based on repentance of sins and into the organization.

I have no problem working with others. What I do have a problem with is being baptized into an organization.

Shawn said...

Voice of Reason said...

Shawn,

you are an idiot for taking things out of context. That is why we do not follow quotes from publications. We have the Word written on our hearts.
===================================

Then enlighten us all, please! How are the quotes I've given been taken out of context?

I've shown you where the Watchtower Society has said that you must only believe what they tell you. You show me where they say that Jehovah's Witnesses have the 'Word written on their heart' and therefore do not need to believe only what they tell you to believe.

Anonymous said...

Next, Ronde will tell you the Kingdom is "in his heart". :-)

Shawn said...

Voice of Reason said...

Shawn,

You should be working for the political candidates as you are good on the negative campaign ads and taking things out of context. You would make them proud.
==================================

Again, show me where I've taken those quotes out of context. Please show me the error of my ways! Secondly, what we're having is a debate, not a love-fest. I have a definite position based on arguments backed up with facts. I invite you to follow the same process. Show everyone here how wrong I am - using your own organization's (you know, the organization you were baptized into) publications and even the Bible.

Quite the opposite of a 'negative campaign ad', what I'm helping people to understand is that the Watchtower Society is not 'God's visible organization'. People do not have to be afraid that God will murder them along with innocent babies in their non-JW mother's arms at Armageddon. I'm offering those cast out, disfellowshipped, by this cult that they are not in line for destruction because of the arbitrary and invasive rules written by the Watchtower Society. (and don't bother saying there are no rules, because I'll just list them again for you from the elder's manual, Pay Attention to the Flock book)

I'm offering hope to those JWs who realize that the organization they belong to is not teaching people the truth, but the rantings of dispensationalist C. T. Russell.

The truth is that defying the Watchtower Society has nothing to do with defying God... and that is good news to those who have opened their eyes and want to leave.

Anonymous said...

Shawn:

You wrote that what I stated was a fallacy. But that can't be, because to make a fallacy one needs to be presenting an argument. But I'm not making any argument. I never said that because one does good means he necessarily has God's favor. And I never said that the action of doing good erases the bad actions one does. To be objective means presenting both the good and the bad of an issue without a personal emotional attachment. The author of this blog has never done that. Thus he is not truly objective. And if an objective presentation of information can't be done, then how is one supposed to make an informed decision based on facts. Those facts are presented from the bias of this blog's author (his emotional attachment).

By the way, you will have noticed no where have I said Jehovah's Witnesses are objective on their website either.

greg said...

So VoR, you say that all the interpretations of 'the generation' over the years are placed equally, the current understanding is true, previous understandings were not wrong. Could you please explain how it is that 'this generation' applies to 1. the annointed, 2. those alive in 1914 and 3. the wicked?

Anonymous said...

Ronde (VOR) responded to Shawn: "FYI, JWs don't care about the generation thing."

Speak for yourself Ronde - I'm a witness and I care very much that they keep changing their interpretation of "the generation thing" as you call it.

You need to open your eyes and stop trying to defend the indisputable evidence that JW's leaders have mislead us - I don't care if it was done on purpose or not, it's awful the false hopes along with false time-tables they have told people, all the time telling people that Jehovah is using ONLY them to dispense spiritual truths. Notice the use of plural because JW's change their version of truth and have so for over 100 years!!!

Wake up Ronde...

Voice of Reason said...

Shawn, you are still an idiot.

It says as you quoted "baptism identify you as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses in association with God’s spirit-directed organization?"

So people's baptism identifies them as one of Jehovah's Witnesses in conjunction with the rest of Jehovah's Witnesses. It does not say that a person is baptized into the Watchtower Society or into the organization.

"I have no problem working with others. What I do have a problem with is being baptized into an organization."

Well, since you were not baptized into an organization, what is the problem? If you were baptized as one of Jehovah's Witnesses, then you join the others who were there also. JWs appreciate the brotherhood and you were not one of Jehovah's Witnesses.

Voice of Reason said...

Shawn,"
Then enlighten us all, please! How are the quotes I've given been taken out of context?"

You state that we are baptized into an organization when the text does not even say that.

"I've shown you where the Watchtower Society has said that you must only believe what they tell you. You show me where they say that Jehovah's Witnesses have the 'Word written on their heart' and therefore do not need to believe only what they tell you to believe. "

What is with this, you show me and I show you stuff. And what is with this 'what they say stuff'? You don't believe what they say so why do you bother quoting it?

Anonymous said...

No matter how you cut it or slice it... when you are baptized as a JW's, you obey the GB's directives - they are just men - but JW's are taught that they are men who are hand-picked by God and who you must submit to.

Don't play with words, we know Ronde... we know.

Voice of Reason said...

anon,

Don't confuse shawn with the facts.
He has a hard enough time with his fiction.

Voice of Reason said...

"when you are baptized as a JW's, you obey the GB's directives - they are just men - but JW's are taught that they are men who are hand-picked by God and who you must submit to."

Except that there are no directives to obey.

Anonymous said...

Ronde wrote: "It is a matter that we, as a united people are doing what we can to serve Jehovah"

Just like very other Christian religion.

You have your flavor, the have theirs.

We need proof that you're special.

Good luck.

Anonymous said...

Grow a beard Ronde and then tell me what happens...

Anonymous said...

VOR/Ronde said, "Don't confuse shawn with the facts. He has a hard enough time with his fiction."

Boy, if that isn't the pot calling itself black.

Really though... have you taken my advice Ronde to seek professional help. I know you think the medical community is against you, but they can really help you these days. They are especially helpful in getting people to seperate reality from fantasy.

Anonymous said...

VOR/Ronde, playing with words with Shawn replied, "And what is with this 'what they say stuff'? You don't believe what they say so why do you bother quoting it?"

That's exactly the point Ronde, Bingo!

We don't believe this stuff from your Governing Body, but here's the thing, YOU DO! ... along with every other JW.

Remember how you said that at the District Conventions spiritual information is dispensed? Well, guess what... that spiritial information (the ideas and interpretation therein) are from the Governing Body of your religion.

How many times do we have to tell you how your religion works... geez.

Anonymous said...

"Grow a beard Ronde and then tell me what happens... "

First talk to the xx chromosomes about that one.

Anonymous said...

Ronde stated, "First talk to the xx chromosomes about that one."

Is this another quote from some wordly source? Wouldn't surprise me since Ronde just loves worldly TV and especially going to the Movies - strike up that Rocky theme music. Way to go Ronde!

Anonymous said...

VOR/Ronde/etc. said, "This GBletters, aka theocratic joker, is a joke and a fraud."

Boy Ronde... if that isn't the pot calling itself black [yet again].

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...
The author of this blog is right, anyone that claims to be used by God shouldn’t make any serious mistakes. Why would God use someone like that?

Anonymous then lists imperfect men used by God recorded in the Bible who were used by him INDIVIDUALLY and not under the direction of a centralized theocratic organization.
There is a fundemental difference between imperfest men used by God in the past to record his Word and the WTBS today. In the past these individuals were under the direction of the holy spirit (2Pet1:20,21) and what they WROTE is and interms of prophecy, turned out to be TRUE. This has not been the case with WTBS writngs, (also claimed to be directed by the holy spirit), which have been and are contradictory, speculative, often need revision and 100% failure in terms of prophecy (dates) which go beyond those recorded in God's Word.

Shawn said...

Voice of Reason said:

Shawn, you are still an idiot.

It says as you quoted "baptism identify you as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses in association with God’s spirit-directed organization?"

So people's baptism identifies them as one of Jehovah's Witnesses in conjunction with the rest of Jehovah's Witnesses. It does not say that a person is baptized into the Watchtower Society or into the organization.

Would you actually read the question? Do you understand that by being baptized you are declaring yourself an associate of 'God's spirit-directed organization'?

*** w97 1/15 p. 22 par. 21 What Does God Require of Us? ***

We must serve Jehovah with his spirit-directed organization.
***

So in the last quote we see that the Watchtower Society is claiming that it is impossible to server Jehovah without their organization.

*** w93 6/1 p. 21 What Does It Take to Make You Happy? ***

Today, God does not speak to his servants directly as he did to Job. Instead, he reproves them by means of his Word and his spirit-directed organization
***

They claim that God speaks through this 'spirit-directed organization'.

What exactly is this 'spirit-directed organization'?

*** w06 4/1 p. 24 par. 14 ‘Go and Make Disciples, Baptizing Them’ ***

14 The second question also reminds the candidate of his responsibility to work with Jehovah’s spirit-directed organization. We are not alone in serving God, and we need the help, support, and encouragement of “the whole association of brothers.” (1 Peter 2:17; 1 Corinthians 12:12, 13) God’s organization plays a vital role in our spiritual growth. It provides a wealth of Bible publications that help us to grow in accurate knowledge, to act wisely when we are faced with problems, and to cultivate a close relationship with God. Like a mother who makes sure that her child is well-fed and cared for, “the faithful and discreet slave” provides an abundance of timely spiritual food for our spiritual advancement.—Matthew 24:45-47; 1 Thessalonians 2:7, 8.
***

So, it's a group of men who have given themselves the title 'faithful and discreet slave' and who act as a 'mother' for Christians.

But what was Jesus' command to his disciples regarding baptism?

(Matthew 28:18-19) "19 Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit"

Notice Jesus doesn't mention anything about being baptized 'in association with God's spirit-directed organization'. Why? Because there was not 'spirit-directed organization'. If Jesus thought that there should be some kind of central organization, wouldn't He have set one up?

The Watchtower Society has no scriptural backing to baptize people 'in association with' any organization. They've added this to the baptismal ceremony in order to insert themselves between you and God.


"I have no problem working with others. What I do have a problem with is being baptized into an organization."

Well, since you were not baptized into an organization, what is the problem? If you were baptized as one of Jehovah's Witnesses, then you join the others who were there also. JWs appreciate the brotherhood and you were not one of Jehovah's Witnesses.

That's right, I was baptized as one of Jehovah's Witnesses... but that's not all. I had to also agree that I was being baptized as someone who was 'in association with God's spirit-directed organization'. There was no option to dedicate myself to God without also associating myself with their organization. Here's the problem - Dedicating yourself to God is completely separate from membership in any group. Jesus' instructions made it clear that baptism is between the new Christian and 'the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit'.

Of course Christians enjoy fellowship with other Christians, but they aren't baptized in association with them. And to set the record straight, Jehovah's Witnesses do not associate with other Christians, only other Jehovah's Witnesses as they claim to be the only ones who are Christians. This is known by people who follow cults as exclusivism.

Shawn said...

Voice of Reason said:

Shawn,"
Then enlighten us all, please! How are the quotes I've given been taken out of context?"

You state that we are baptized into an organization when the text does not even say that.

See my last post for the explanation of why that second question has no business being part of the baptismal ceremony.

"I've shown you where the Watchtower Society has said that you must only believe what they tell you. You show me where they say that Jehovah's Witnesses have the 'Word written on their heart' and therefore do not need to believe only what they tell you to believe. "

What is with this, you show me and I show you stuff.

It's called, brace yourself... a debate. I make a claim and back it up with evidence and you counter with your own opposing claim, and here's where you consistently fail, and back it up with evidence.

And what is with this 'what they say stuff'? You don't believe what they say so why do you bother quoting it?

That's right, I don't believe any of it any more, but millions of people do and there are certainly those out there who are looking into studying with Jehovah's Witnesses. What I do is show those people how dishonest the Watchtower Society is...

how they've been responsible for countless unnecessary deaths due to prohibiting their members from life-saving medical treatment...

how the very earliest beginnings of their doctrine are based on arbitrary calculations and very unChristian pyramidology...

how they use cult techniques to control their members...

how they've distorted the Bible with their own version that had not a single qualified translator on the 'translation' committee.

The list goes on. I've pointed this out to you before and I'll do it again because it hasn't sunk in yet. A debate is not for the two people doing the debating, it's for the audience. If you didn't comment on this blog I wouldn't have nearly as much of an opportunity to expose the Watchtower Society for what it is as I do now. For that I thank you.

Shawn said...

By the way, Vor, I'm still waiting for you to show us all how I take things out of context. When I quoted the baptismal questions, I quoted the questions in their entirety along with the surrounding text of the article. I think you might not understand what 'out of context' means. I'll explain.

Suppose there are two people where one is quoting the other.

Person #1:"I never said that I shot the sheriff."

Person #2:"Person #1 said '...I shot the sheriff'"

While person two is correct in that Person #1 did say those words in that order, however the meaning of what Person #1 said was totally distorted.

Now please explain to us all how I've quoted the Watchtower Society out of context. I offer you this challenge because I'm very careful in how I quote them, specifically for this kind of accusation. It's also why some of my quotes tend to be on the long side... because you're not the first JW to try to dismiss a quote as 'out of context'.

Honestly, I don't have to quote the Watchtower Society out of context. Their hubris has driven them to publish some of the most presumptuous statements ever set in print.

Voice of Reason said...

"imperfect men used by God recorded in the Bible who were used by him INDIVIDUALLY and not under the direction of a centralized theocratic organization."

Why does that make a difference?

"This has not been the case with WTBS writngs, (also claimed to be directed by the holy spirit), which have been and are contradictory, speculative, often need revision and 100% failure in terms of prophecy (dates) which go beyond those recorded in God's Word. "

Then don't go by the WTBTS writings, go by the Bible's teachings and Jehovah's Witness's teachings. Well, they are the same thing. JWs do not set dates. Only the exjws do.

Voice of Reason said...

Shawn said:
"JWs have died needlessly because of an arbitrary ban on blood transfusions. "

No JW has died needlessly. They made choices and if they died from refusing blood, then they have the right to that choice and the doctors should have performed better. and the ban is not arbitrary.

Voice of Reason said...

Shawn,

you still are an idiot

"We must serve Jehovah with his spirit-directed organization."

'Serve with the organization' does not mean serve the organization.

Get a clue, and a life.

Shawn said...

Voice of Reason said:

"imperfect men used by God recorded in the Bible who were used by him INDIVIDUALLY and not under the direction of a centralized theocratic organization."

Why does that make a difference?

Because the Watchtower Society wastes endless amounts of paper telling people how important they are...

*** w07 4/1 p. 24 par. 12 Loyal to Christ and His Faithful Slave ***

A fundamental reason for showing proper respect for the faithful slave class is that by so doing, we are in fact showing respect for the Master, Jesus Christ. Paul wrote of the anointed ones: “He that was called when a freeman is a slave of Christ. You were bought with a price.” (1 Corinthians 7:22, 23; Ephesians 6:6) Therefore, when we loyally submit to the direction of the faithful slave and its Governing Body, we are submitting to Christ, the slave’s Master. Our showing due respect for the instrument Christ is using to manage his earthly belongings is one way in which we “openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.”—Philippians 2:11.
***

This is a total falsehood. Nowhere in the scriptures does the Bible talk about 'God's visible organization' or 'God's spirit-directed organization'. A Christian does not need to belong to an organization to be a Christian according to the scriptures.


"This has not been the case with WTBS writngs, (also claimed to be directed by the holy spirit), which have been and are contradictory, speculative, often need revision and 100% failure in terms of prophecy (dates) which go beyond those recorded in God's Word. "

Then don't go by the WTBTS writings, go by the Bible's teachings and Jehovah's Witness's teachings. Well, they are the same thing. JWs do not set dates. Only the exjws do.

The Watchtower Society's teachings as printed in their literature are the teachings of Jehovah's Witnesses.

*** w96 3/15 p. 16 par. 9 Meeting the Challenge of Loyalty ***

We now come to the matter of being loyal to Jehovah’s visible organization. Certainly, we owe loyalty to it, including “the faithful and discreet slave,” through which the Christian congregation is fed spiritually.
***

*** w07 4/1 p. 25 par. 16 Loyal to Christ and His Faithful Slave ***

The other sheep recognize that they have greatly benefited from the diligent efforts of the faithful slave in supplying them with timely spiritual food. They humbly acknowledge that were it not for the faithful and discreet slave, they would know little or nothing of precious Bible truths
***

That does not recommend using the Bible alone, does it VoR?

*** km 9/07 p. 3 Question Box ***

Does “the faithful and discreet slave” endorse independent groups of Witnesses who meet together to engage in Scriptural research or debate?—Matt. 24:45, 47.

No, it does not. ...

For those who wish to do extra Bible study and research, we recommend that they explore Insight on the Scriptures, “All Scripture Is Inspired of God and Beneficial,” and our other publications, such as those that discuss the prophecies found in the Bible books of Daniel, Isaiah, and Revelation. These provide abundant material for Bible study and meditation, whereby we can be “filled with the accurate knowledge of [God’s] will in all wisdom and spiritual comprehension, in order to walk worthily of Jehovah to the end of fully pleasing him as [we] go on bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the accurate knowledge of God.”—Col. 1:9, 10.
***

So your argument that people shouldn't "go by the WTBTS writings, go by the Bible's teachings" is not at all in line with what Jehovah's Witnesses teach.


So show us all of the dates exjws have predicted. We keep waiting for you to show us how wrong we are and you still never produce evidence.

Voice of Reason said...

Shawn said:"Because the Watchtower Society wastes endless amounts of paper telling people how important they are...
*** w07 4/1 p. 24 par. 12 Loyal to Christ and His Faithful Slave ***
A fundamental reason for showing proper respect for the faithful slave class is"

Except that the FDS is not the WTS.
Try again.

The only one stating how important s/he is is you as you like to highlight your words in bold.

"Does “the faithful and discreet slave” endorse independent groups of Witnesses "

They don't endorse obama or Mcain either but one will become president, (though Charles Jay of the Boston Tea party or Ron Paul or even Nadar would be better (though if I were a voter I would go with Bob Barr and straight libertarian))

Voice of Reason said...

Shawn said:
"So show us all of the dates exjws have predicted"

1914, 1915, 1925, 1975.

Shawn said...

Voice of Reason has left a new comment on the post "United States Branch Statistics Direct From The Se...":

Shawn said:
"JWs have died needlessly because of an arbitrary ban on blood transfusions. "

No JW has died needlessly. They made choices and if they died from refusing blood, then they have the right to that choice and the doctors should have performed better. and the ban is not arbitrary.
===================================

The ban is arbitrary - prove me wrong.

...and once again, you're wrong about the refusal of blood being a personal choice. From the elder's manual 'Pay attention to the Flock..'

The Scriptures clearly show that Jehovah forbids certain
conduct among his clean people ; brothers need to up-
hold Jehovah's righteous standards regarding the follow-
ing:
...
Failure to abstain from blood . (Gen . 9 :4 ; Acts 15 :20,
28,29)


Taking a blood transfusion will get you disfellowshipped. How is that an uncoerced decision?

Shawn said...

Voice of Reason said:

Shawn,

you still are an idiot

"We must serve Jehovah with his spirit-directed organization."

'Serve with the organization' does not mean serve the organization.

==================================

Show me from the Bible where it says that a Christian must serve with an organization. Show me from the Bible where the requirement to serve with an organization is so important that it is a requirement for baptism.

Anonymous said...

Oh Ronde, you have met your match... I just love how Shawn continues to respond to your non-sensical replies and proves you wrong over and over again - it's a great exposure to your silly responses.

Have you sought any professional help yet? (You are not right my friend.)

Shawn said...

Voice of Reason has left a new comment on the post "United States Branch Statistics Direct From The Se...":

Shawn said:"Because the Watchtower Society wastes endless amounts of paper telling people how important they are...
*** w07 4/1 p. 24 par. 12 Loyal to Christ and His Faithful Slave ***
A fundamental reason for showing proper respect for the faithful slave class is"

Except that the FDS is not the WTS.
Try again.
==================================

You got it...

*** w98 3/15 p. 18 par. 3 Living Up to Christian Dedication in Freedom ***

Someone may argue that the way the Witnesses speak about the Watch Tower Society—or more often just “the Society”—indicates that they view it as more than a legal instrument. Do they not consider it to be the final authority on matters of worship? The book Jehovah’s Witnesses—Proclaimers of God’s Kingdom clarifies this point by explaining: “When The Watchtower [June 1, 1938] referred to ‘The Society,’ this meant, not a mere legal instrumentality, but the body of anointed Christians that had formed that legal entity and used it.” The expression therefore stood for “the faithful and discreet slave.”
***

There you have it. The expression Watchtower Society therefore stood for 'the faithful and discreet slave'.

You should really do your research before you post. I would be really embarrassed if I were you.

Anonymous said...

Awesome Shawn!

You got him... Ronde is publicly shown to be the buffon that he is on this web-blog!

Awesome response... an answer that comes right from the Governing Body!

Shawn, you have taken on the non-sense of Ronde and proved to all readers of this blog that some JW's will stoop to anything to discredit sites and web-blogs critial of JW's.

Isn't it funny how JW can't hide the truth about themselves - it's in their own publications! Too bad Ronde doesn't believe in The Watchtower Society's (aka the body of anointed Christians that had formed that legal entity and used it) own literature. LOL

You are so stupid Ronde. If the GB is reading this blog (and I have to think some of them are) you are causing a lot of embarassment to your own religion.

Shawn said...

Voice of Reason said:

Shawn said:
"So show us all of the dates exjws have predicted"

1914, 1915, 1925, 1975.
====================================

No, show me where exjws have printed that the end would come on those dates... because I can show you where the Watchtower Society printed them...

1914 "we present proofs that the setting up of the kingdom of God is already begun .. and that the 'battle of the great day of God Almighty' (Rev. 16: 14) which shall end in A.D. 1914 with the complete overthrow of earth's present rulership .. The gathering of the armies is plainly visible from the standpoint of God's word." {TIAH 101} [TIAH 1915 ed contains '1915' instead of '1914']

1914 "Can It Be Delayed until 1914? .. Seventeen years ago people said, concerning the time features presented in Millennial Dawn, They seem reasonable in many respects, but surely no such radical changes could occur between now and the close of 1914: if you had proved that they would come about in a century or two, it would seem much more probable. What changes have since occurred, and what velocity is gained daily? 'The old is quickly passing and the new is coming in.' Now, in view of recent labor troubles and threatened anarchy, our readers are writing to know if there may not be a mistake in the 1914 date. They say that they do not see how present conditions can hold out so long under the strain. We see no reason for changing the figures-nor could we change them if we would. They are, we believe, God's dates, not ours. But bear in mind that the end of 1914 is not the date for the beginning, but for the end of the time of trouble. We see no reason for changing from our opinion expressed in the view presented in the Watch Tower of January 15, '92. We advise that it be read again." {ZWT Jul 15 1894 repr 1677}

1915 "The 'battle of the great day of God Almighty' (Rev. 16:14) which will end in A.D. 1915 with the complete overthrow of earth's present rulership, is already commenced. The gathering of the armies is plainly visible from the standpoint of God's word." {TIAH 1915 ed 101} [original TIAH used "1914" instead of "1915"]

1915 "In view of this strong Bible evidence concerning the Times of the Gentiles, we consider it an established truth that the final end of the kingdoms of this world, and the full establishment of the kingdom of God, will be accomplished near the end of A.D. 1915. {TIAH 1915 ed 99}

1915 "While it's possible that Armageddon may begin next Spring, yet this purely speculation to attempt to say just when. We see, however, that there are parallels between the close of the Jewish age and this Gospel age. These parallels seem to point to the year just before us part particularly the early months." {WR VI Sep 1 1914 5527}

1924-5 "After 1925 expect shortly Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob.. No doubt many boys and girls who read this book will live to see Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Daniel, and those other men of old come forth in the glory of their better resurrection, of perfect in mind and body. It will not take long for Christ to appoint them to their post of honor and authority as his earthly representatives. The world and all the present conveniences will seen strange to them at first, but they will soon become accustomed to the new methods. They may have some amusing experiences at first; for they never saw telephones, radios, automobiles, electric lights, aeroplanes, steam engines, and many other things so familiar to us." {TWTP 224-6}

1925 "We understand that the jubilee type began to count in 1575 B.C.; and the 3,500 year period embracing the type must end in 1925.. It follows, then, that the year 1925 will mark the beginning of the restoration of all things lost by Adam's disobedience." {WT Nov 1 1922 346}

1925 "The year 1925 is a date definitely and clearly marked in Scriptures, even more clearly than that of 1914" {WT 1924 211}

1925 "The period must end in 1925. The type ending, the antitype must begin; and therefore 1925 is definitely fixed in the scriptures. every thinking person can see that a great climax is at hand. The Scriptures clearly indicate that the climax is the fall of Satan's empire and the full establishment of the Messianic kingdom. This climax being reached by 1925, and that marking the beginning of the fulfillment of the long promised blessings of life to the people, millions now living on earth will be living then and those who obey the righteous laws of the new arrangement will live forever. Therefore it can be confidently said at this time that millions now living will never die." {GA Jan 4 1922 217}

1975 "' .. To give aid today in this critical time to prospective sons of God,' announced President Knorr, 'a new book in English, entitled 'Life Everlasting - in Freedom of the Sons of God,' has been published.' .. It did not take the brothers very long to find the chart beginning on page 31, showing that 6,000 years of man's existence end in 1975. Discussion of 1975 overshadowed about everything else. 'The new book compels us to realize that Armageddon is, in fact, very close indeed,' .. THE YEAR 1975 .. 6,000 years of human experience will end in 1975, about nine years from now. What does that mean? Does it mean that God's rest day began 4026 B.C.E.? It could have. The Life Everlasting book does not say it did not.. 'What about the year 1975? What is it going to mean, dear friends?' asked Brother Franz. 'Does it mean that Armageddon is going to be finished, with Satan bound, by 1975? It could! It could! All things are possible with God. Does it mean that Babylon the Great is going to go down by 1975? It could. Does it mean that the attack of Gog of Magog is going to be made on Jehovah's witnesses to wipe them out, then Gog himself will be put out of action? It could. But we are not saying. All things are possible with God. But we are not saying. And don't any of you be specific in saying anything that is going to happen between now and 1975. But the big point of it all is this, dear friends: Time is short. Time is running out, no question about that." {WT Oct 15 1966 628-31}

1975 "Today, there are many teenage baptized servants of Jehovah.. how far should they go with a secular education? It would hardly be consistent for such a youth, of his own choice, to pursue extensive secular studies beyond what is required by the law and by his parents.. additional years of college education may present snares." {WT Sep 1 1975 543}

1975 "'How Much Longer Will It Be?' 6,000 Years Completed in 1975 .. In what year, then, would the first 6,000 years of man's existence and also the first 6,000 years of God's rest day come to an end? The year 1975.. Hence, the fact that we are nearing the end of the first 6,000 years of man's existence is of great significance. Does God's rest day parallel the time man has been on earth since his creation? Apparently so. From the most reliable investigations of Bible chronology, harmonizing with many accepted dates of secular history, we find that Adam was created in the autumn of the year 4026 B.C.E. Sometime in that same year Eve could well have been created, directly after which God's rest day commenced .. There is another chronological indication that we are rapidly nearing the closing time for this wicked system of things. It is the fact that shortly, according to reliable Bible chronology, 6,000 years of human history will come to an end.. After six thousand years of toil and bondage to sin, sickness, death and Satan, mankind is due to enjoy a rest and is in dire need of a rest. (Heb. 4:1-11) Hence, the fact that we are nearing the end of the first 6,000 years of man's existence is of great significance.. In what year, then, would the first 6,000 years of man's existence and also the first 6,000 years of God's rest day come to an end? The year 1975. This is worthy of notice, particularly in view of the fact that the 'last days' began in 1914, and that the physical facts of our day in fulfillment of prophecy mark this as the last generation of this wicked world. So we can expect the immediate future to be filled with thrilling events for those who rest their faith in God and his promises. It means that within relatively few years we will witness the fulfillment of the remaining prophecies that have to do with the 'time of the end.'" {AWAK Oct 8 1966 19-20}

1975 "6,000 Years Nearing Completion .. The fact that fifty-four years of the period called the 'last days' have already gone by is highly significant. It means that only a few years, at most, remain before the corrupt system of things dominating the earth is destroyed by God. Today, many years later, we may ask, What does the phrase 'the immediate future' mean? How many years are 'a few years at most'? .. According to reliable Bible chronology, Adam and Eve were created in 4026 B.C.E.. There is another way that helps confirm the fact that we are living in the final few years of this 'time of the end.' (Dan. 12:9) The Bible shows that we are nearing the end of a full 6,000 years of human history. What significance does this have? When God gave his laws to ancient Israel, one of those laws involved keeping the sabbath day holy. On the seventh day of the week there was to be no labor. The people were to rest from all their toil. (Ex 20:8-11) The Bible states that 'the Law has a shadow of the good things to come.' - Heb. 10:1. Revelation chapter 20, verse 6, shows that God's heavenly kingdom will rule over the earth for one thousand years after the end of this system of things. That millennium will bring a sabbathlike rest to the earth and all those then inhabiting it. Hence, the first six thousand years since man's creation could be likened to the first six days of the week in ancient Israel. The seventh one-thousand-year period could be likened to the seventh day, the sabbath, of that week. - 2 Pet. 3:8. How fitting it would be for God, following this pattern, to end man's misery after six thousand years of human rule and follow it with His glorious Kingdom rule for a thousand years! .. only seven more years from the autumn of 1968 to complete 6,000 full years of human history. That seven-year period will evidently finish in the autumn of the year 1975.. Concerning political instability, former U.S. Secretary of State Dean Acheson said in 1960: 'I know enough of what is going on to assure you that, in 15 years from today (or, by 1975), this world is going to be too dangerous to live in.' .. [Chart] 1975 C.E. END OF 6,000 YEARS .. In the book Famine - 1975! food experts W. and P. Paddock state: .. 'I forecast a specific date, 1975, when the new crisis will be upon us in all its awesome importance.'" {AWAK Oct 8 1968 14-5}

1975 "Would there be another creative 'day,' a seventh 'day,' at the close of the 'morning' of which the whole earth would be populated with a human family and be a global Paradise? 'Evening' of seventh creative 'day' begins, 4026 B.C.E." {GEPT 51} [4026 B.C.E. + 6000 years to take to start of the seventh day = 1975]

1975 "The time is fast drawing near for the reality that was foreshadowed by the Jubilee of liberty to be proclaimed throughout the earth to all mankind.. Most certainly the near future would be the most appropriate time for it. God's own written Word indicates that it is the appointed time for it.. In this twentieth century an independent study has been carried on that does not blindly follow some traditional chronological calculations of Christendom, and the published timetable resulting from this independent study gives the date of man's creation as 4026 B.C.E. So six thousand years of man's existence on earth will soon be up, yes, within this generation.. Since the time of Ussher intensive study of Bible chronology has been carried on. In this twentieth century an independent study has been carried on that does not blindly follow some traditional chronological calculations of Christendom, and the published timetable resulting from this independent study gives the date of man's creation as 4026 B.C.E. According to this trustworthy Bible chronology six thousand years from man's creation will end in 1975, and the seventh period of a thousand years of human history will begin in the fall of 1975 C.E. So six thousand years of man's existence on earth will soon be up, yes, within this generation. Jehovah God is timeless, as it is written in Psalm 90:1, 2: "O Jehovah, you yourself have proved to be a real dwelling for us during generation after generation. Before the mountains themselves were born, or you proceeded to bring forth as with labor pains the earth and the productive land, even from time indefinite to time indefinite you are God." So from the standpoint of Jehovah God these passing six thousand years of man's existence are but as six days of twenty-four hours, for this same psalm (verses 3, 4) goes on to say: "You make mortal man go back to crushed matter, and you say: `Go back, you sons of men.' For a thousand years are in your eyes but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch during the night." So in not many years within our own generation we are reaching what Jehovah God could view as the seventh day of man's existence. So in not many years within our own generation we are reaching what Jehovah God could view as the seventh day of man's existence. How appropriate it would be for Jehovah God to make of this coming seventh period of a thousand years a sabbath period of rest and release, a great Jubilee sabbath for the proclaiming of liberty throughout the earth to all its inhabitants! This would be most timely for mankind. It would also be most fitting on God's part, for, remember, mankind has yet ahead of it what the last book of the Holy Bible speaks of as the reign of Jesus Christ over earth for a thousand years, the millennial reign of Christ. Prophetically Jesus Christ, when on earth nineteen centuries ago, said concerning himself: "For Lord of the sabbath is what the Son of man is." (Matthew 12: 8). It would not be by mere chance or accident but would be according to the loving purpose of Jehovah God for the reign of Jesus Christ, the 'Lord of the Sabbath,' to run parallel with the seventh millennium of man's existence." {LEIF 26-30}

1975 "1975 - 6000 End of 6th 1,000-year day of man's existence (in early autumn)" {LEIF 35}

1975 "In order for the Lord Jesus Christ to be 'Lord even of the sabbath day,' his thousand-year reign would have to be the seventh in a series of thousand-year periods or millenniums. (Matt. 12:8, AV) Thus it would be a sabbatic reign. Since early in the existence of mankind Satan the Devil has been on the loose, making the human family to toil in hard bondage, causing the earth to be filled with violence before the global flood of Noah's day and inducing the same old earth to be filled with even greater violence today. Soon now six millenniums of his wicked exploiting of mankind as his slaves will end, within the lifetime of the generation that has witnessed world events since the close of the Gentile Times in 1914 till now, according to the prophetic words of Jesus in Matthew 24:34. Would not, then, the end of six millenniums of mankind's laborious enslavement under Satan the Devil be the fitting time for Jehovah God to usher in a Sabbath millennium for all his human creatures? Yes, indeed!" {WT Oct 15 1969 623, APTY 26-7}

1975 "More recently earnest researchers of the Holy Bible have made a recheck of its chronology. According to their calculations the six millenniums of mankind's life on earth would end in the mid-seventies. Thus the seventh millennium from man's creation by Jehovah God would begin within less than ten years." {APTY 25}

1975 "Interestingly, the autumn of the year 1975 marks the end of 6,000 years of human experience. This is ascertainable from reliable chronology preserved in the Bible itself. What will that year mean for humankind? Will it be the time when God executes the wicked and starts off the thousand-year reign of his Son Jesus Christ? It very well could, but we will have to wait to see.. A glorious new order is immediately before us." {WT May 1 1967 262}

1975 "According to reliable Bible chronology Adam was created in the year 4026 B.C.E., likely in the autumn of the year, at the end of the sixth day of creation. Then God brought the animals to man to name. Yet, of Adam, Genesis states these words of Jehovah: 'It is not good for the man to continue by himself.' (Gen. 2:18) Adam would realize this lonely condition very quickly, perhaps in just a few days or a few weeks. He would realize he needed another earthling with whom he could communicate, share his experiences, and his life. Nor would his naming the animals take an unduly long time. The basic animal kinds could have been relatively quickly named, for when such basic kinds were taken into the ark in Noah's day, it did not involve millions of beasts, but perhaps only a few hundred basic kinds. Thus Adam's naming of the animals and his realizing that he needed a counterpart would have occupied only a brief time after his creation. Since it was also Jehovah's purpose for man to multiply and fill the earth, it is logical that he would create Eve soon after Adam, perhaps just a few weeks or months later in the same year, 4026 B.C.E. After her creation, God's rest day, the seventh period, immediately followed.. Eight years from the Autumn of 1967 would bring us to the Autumn of 1975, fully 6,000 years into God's seventh day, his rest day.. The immediate future is certain to be filled with climactic events, for this old system is nearing its complete end. Within a few years at most the final parts of Bible prophecy relative to these 'last days' will undergo fulfillment, resulting in the liberation of surviving mankind into Christ's glorious 1,000-year reign. What difficult days, but, at the same time, what grand days are just ahead! " {WT May 1 1968 271-2}

1975 "Of what significance is this today? It means that by the fall of 1963 mankind has dwelt upon this earth 5,988 years. Does this mean, then, that by 1963 we had progressed 5,988 years into the 'day' on which Jehovah 'has been resting from all his work'? (Gen. 2:3) No, for the creation of Adam does not correspond with the beginning of Jehovah's rest day. Following Adam's creation, and still within the sixth creative day, Jehovah appears to have been forming further animal and bird creations. Also, he had Adam name the animals, which would take some time, and he proceeded to create Eve. (Gen. 2:18-22; see also NWT, 1953 Ed., footnote on Vs. 19) Whatever time elapsed between Adam's creation and the end of the 'sixth day' must be subtracted from the 5,988 years in order to give the actual length of time from the beginning of the 'seventh day' until now. It does no good to use Bible chronology for speculating on dates that are still future in the stream of time." {ASII 286}

1975 "'The Book of Truthful Historical Dates' .. Do we know that the seventh year from now will conclude the 6,000th year since Adam was created? And if we live to that year 1975, what should we expect to happen?" {WT Aug 15 1968 488}

1975 "WHY ARE YOU LOOKING FORWARD TO 1975? .. What about all this talk concerning the year 1975? Lively discussions, some based on speculation, have burst into flame during recent months among serious students of the Bible. Their interest has been kindled by the belief that 1975 will mark the end of 6,000 years of human history since Adam's creation. The nearness of such an important date indeed fires the imagination and presents unlimited possibilities for discussion.. of what benefit is this information to us today?.. why should we be any more interested in the date of Adam's creation than in the birth of King Tut?.. in the fall of the year 1975, a little over seven years from now .. it will be 6,000 years since the creation of Adam." {WT Aug 15 1968 494}

1975 "'Adam Created At Close Of 'Sixth Day' .. in the fall of the year 1975, a little over seven years from now .. it will be 6,000 years since the creation of Adam, the father of all mankind! Are we to assume from this study that the battle of Armageddon will be all over by the autumn of 1975, and the long-looked-for thousand-year reign of Christ will begin by then? Possibly, but we wait to see how closely the seventh thousand-year period of man's existence coincides with the Sabbath-like thousand-year reign of Christ .. Are we to assume from this study that the battle of Armageddon will be all over by the autumn of 1975, and the long-looked-for thousand-year reign of Christ will begin by then? Possibly, but we wait to see how closely the seventh thousand-year period of man's existence coincides with the sabbathlike thousand-year reign of Christ. If these two periods run parallel with each other as to the calendar year, it will not be by mere chance or accident but will be according to Jehovah's loving and timely purposes. Our chronology, however, which is reasonably accurate (but admittedly not infallible), at the best only points to the autumn of 1975 as the end of 6,000 years of man's existence on earth. It does not necessarily mean that 1975 marks the end of the first 6,000 years of Jehovah's seventh creative 'day.' Why not? Because after his creation Adam lived some time during the 'sixth day,' which unknown amount of time would need to be subtracted from Adam's 930 years, to determine when the sixth seven-thousand-year period or 'day' ended, and how long Adam lived into the 'seventh day.' And yet the end of that sixth creative 'day' could end within the same Gregorian calendar year of Adam's creation. It may involve only a difference of weeks or months, not years.. This time between Adam's creation and the beginning of the seventh day, the day of rest, let it be noted, need not have been a long time. It could have been a rather short one. The naming of the animals by Adam, and his discovery that there was no complement for himself, required no great length of time.. One thing is absolutely certain, Bible chronology reinforced with fulfilled Bible prophecy shows that six thousand years of man's existence will soon be up, yes, within this generation! (Matt. 24:34) This is, therefore, no time to be indifferent and complacent. This is not the time to be toying with the words of Jesus that 'concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father.' To the contrary, it is a time when one should be keenly aware that the end of this system of things is rapidly coming to its violent end. Make no mistake, it is sufficient that the Father himself knows both the 'day and hour.' .. There was a ring of alarm and a cry of urgency in all their [the apostles] writings.... And rightly so. If they had delayed or dillydallied and had been complacent with the idea the end was was some thousands of years off they would never have finished running the race set before them." {WT Aug 15 1968 499-501, in accordance with the Adam/Eve age-difference claims in AID 333/538}

1975 "It is just as a former United States Secretary of State noted in the June 13, 1960, issue of U.S. News & World Report. He declared that our time is 'a period of unequaled instability, unequaled violence,' and warned: 'I know enough of what is going on to assure you that, in 15 years from today, this world is going to be too dangerous to live in.' Fifteen years from 1960 brings us to 1975. He predicted that by 1975 this world would be too dangerous! Interestingly, this date is also the one indicated by the most reliable Bible research as marking the end of 6,000 years of rebellion of men and demons against God." {AWAK Jan 8 1968 19}

1975 ".. as reported back in 1960, a former United States Secretary of State, Dean Acheson, declared that our time is 'a period of unequaled instability, unequaled violence.' and he warned: 'I know enough of what is going on to assure you that, in fifteen years from today, this world is going to be too dangerous to live in.'" {TLEL 9} [1960 + 15 = 1975; however TLEL 1981 ed 9 was amended so the words "and he warned: 'I know enough of what is going on to assure you that, in fifteen years from today," disappeared and in their place appeared "Based on what he knew was then going on in the world, it was his conclusion that soon '"]

1975 "More recently, the book entitled "Famine-1975!" [by W. & P. Paddock, 1967, pp. 52, 55, 61.] said concerning today's food shortages: "Hunger is rampant throughout country after country, continent after continent around the undeveloped belt of the tropics and subtropics. Today's crisis can move in only one direction - toward catastrophe. Today hungry nations; tomorrow starving nations.. By 1975 civil disorder, anarchy, military dictatorships, runaway inflation, transportation breakdowns and chaotic unrest will be the order of the day in many of the hungry nations." {TLEL 88-9} [Elsewhere, the same source is quoted as stating "By 1975 a disaster of unprecedented magnitude will face the world. Famines, greater than any in history, will ravage the undeveloped nations."]

1975 "Making some special effort to do more than the usual helps us live up to our dedication. In view of the short period of time left, we want to do this as often as circumstances permit. Just think, brothers, there are only about ninety months left before 6,000 years of man's existence on earth is completed. . Do you remember what we learned at the assemblies last summer? The majority of people living today will probably be alive when Armageddon breaks out, and there are no resurrection hopes for those who are destroyed then. So, now more than ever, it is vital not to ignore that spirit of wanting to do more." {KMIN Mar 1968 4} [Mar 1968 + 90 months = Oct 1975]

1975 "The publications of Jehovah's witnesses have shown that, according to Bible chronology, it appears that 6,000 years of man's existence will be completed in the mid-1970's. But these publications have never said that the world's end would come then. Nevertheless, there has been considerable individual speculation on the matter." {WT Oct 15 1974 635}

1975 ".. millions of people now living will see the 'day' of Christ's coming to mete out justice upon this system of things .." {WT Jan 1 1975 11}

1975 ".. the Creator's promise of a new order of lasting peace and true security within our generation." {AWAK Jan 8 1975}

So VoR... where is your proof that exjws have predicted all of these dates we read in the Watchtower Society's publications?

Anonymous said...

Got him again!!! Thank you Shawn for PROVING from there own literature that JW's have indeed prophesized false dates about the end of this system!

Ronde, you should really do your research before posting your errors and misleading statements on this web-blog.

Anonymous said...

<<<< They don't publish the numbers of those that left the organization because people don't leave the organization. There are those that stop publishing but they have not left the organization.

And I do not believe that these are stats direct from the US branch service desk.

I know where you got that info from and there is some disinformation in there to track where it came from.>>>>>>


hey - voice of reason.
I am convinced you are not a JW!!!!
You do not speak like a brainwashed JW.

anyway - I "LEFT" the org. 1000s leave every year and never come back.

Perhaps not this year but a decrease in active pubs is inevitable.

Shawn said...

Well, don't forget that the Watchtower Society can always claim that they are experiencing invisible growth

Shawn said...

Anonymous said:


You are so stupid Ronde. If the GB is reading this blog (and I have to think some of them are) you are causing a lot of embarassment to your own religion.
===================================

I know I'd have a lot more respect for VoR if he actually stuck to what rank-and-file JWs believe, but instead he makes up his own religion as he goes along. Personally, I don't care what he believes. Whatever it is that he does believe, it's not what Jehovah's Witnesses teach. Could it be that he doesn't realize that most of the readers of this blog are or were Jehovah's Witnesses so that he could just make up stuff about what JWs believe and we would simply believe him?

Anonymous said...

It never ceases to amaze me how effective the mind control techniques really are. A JW can read someting directly from the bound volume, but still deny it.

Un-freaking-believable.

NEVER underestimate the mind control.

Voice of Reason said...

"Taking a blood transfusion will get you disfellowshipped. How is that an uncoerced decision?"

Yes, taking a blood transfusion is against God's law, but not receiving one.

And the decisions are not coerced as people can choose to have one if they want. If they choose to then they are removed from the congregation. The decision is free will.

Voice of Reason said...

An idiot said:
"Show me from the Bible where it says that a Christian must serve with an organization. Show me from the Bible where the requirement to serve with an organization is so important that it is a requirement for baptism."

Matt 28:19&20 Jesus says to go and make disciples. Those 11 apostles served together as and with an organization and not solo.

Voice of Reason said...

shawn said:
"No, show me where exjws have printed that the end would come on those dates... because I can show you where the Watchtower Society printed them..."

What you just copied and pasted is the proof.

Anonymous said...

The only ones who have mind control are the exjws. Except that there aren't any.

Anonymous said...

Ronde wrote: "Matt 28:19&20 Jesus says to go and make disciples. Those 11 apostles served together as and with an organization and not solo"

Wow, you convinced me.

Anonymous said...

ditto:

"It never ceases to amaze me how effective the mind control techniques really are. A JW can read someting directly from the bound volume, but still deny it."

Anonymous said...

Ronde Ronde Ronde...

Professional help is available for you - it may take awhile because you really need a lot of help... but, don't let this stop you.

Anonymous said...

VOR replied, "Matt 28:19&20 Jesus says to go and make disciples. Those 11 apostles served together as and with an organization and not solo."

Did that organization back then have a name?

kimmy jo said...

vor/ronde
you are so fun!!
the more you argue the more you prompt others to bring out the truth that clearly contradicts anything you say.

conversation with you is an excellent resource for those searching for truth or those needing confirmation they have left the org. with good reason.

Anonymous said...

Boy, that's the truth Kimmy Jo!

Shawn said...

Voice of Reason has left a new comment on the post "United States Branch Statistics Direct From The Se...":

"Taking a blood transfusion will get you disfellowshipped. How is that an uncoerced decision?"

Yes, taking a blood transfusion is against God's law, but not receiving one.

And the decisions are not coerced as people can choose to have one if they want. If they choose to then they are removed from the congregation. The decision is free will.

==================================

That's the point. If a baptized member of the congregation accepts a blood transfusion, they are disfellowshipped. What does that mean to the person who has been disfellowshipped?

*** w59 3/15 p. 170 par. 18 Keeping Strict Watch on How We Walk ***

What a calamity it would be to be disfellowshiped from Jehovah’s congregation and suffer eternal destruction!
***

*** w65 12/15 p. 751 par. 15 “We Should Not Neglect the House of Our God” ***

Disfellowshiping means the casting of a member out of God’s household; and if one should remain in this disfellowshiped condition till he died, it would mean his everlasting destruction as a person who is rejected by God. Staying away from meetings leads in that very direction.
***

*** w75 8/15 p. 508 par. 15 Do Not Let Your Faith Be Shipwrecked by Discouragement or Personalities ***

Such persons, when discovered, are expelled or disfellowshiped as not deserving to be within the congregation. But if someone rejects the truth of God’s Word, proving to be a chronic complainer while seeking to cover his apostasy and mislead others by admiring personalities, should we follow this one out of the truth and into destruction?
***


That's right, a person who is in a disfellowshipped state when Armageddon comes will be murdered by God. But that's not all. Even if that person is reinstated, God may still murder them at Armageddon...

*** w81 7/1 p. 21 par. 15 The God of Love Hates a Divorcing ***

Elders can base their decision only on the apparent repentance, but they are unable to read the heart fully. Not being able to judge the motive, they may reinstate the now married couple. But let that couple never forget Paul’s words that “God will judge fornicators and adulterers.” (Heb. 13:4) The final judgment in all such cases rests in the hands of Jehovah God, who knows all the circumstances. He does read hearts, even as Jeremiah 17:9, 10 states. He knows the motive and is aware of any deceit or malicious scheming on the part of persons who violate his law on marriage. Yes, “all things are naked and openly exposed to the eyes of him with whom we have an accounting.” Surely such scriptures should make us pause and think.—Heb. 4:13.
***

Notice that the elders have the power to sentence you to death at Armageddon, but not the ability to remove that sentence!

The message is clear. If a baptized JW accepts a blood transfusion, that person will be sentenced to death at Armageddon and even if they are reinstated, God may still kill them.

This is not free will devoid of coercion. The Watchtower Society is controlling its members with the threat of divine retribution.

Let's change the actors say a person is considering whether to accept a blood transfusion and asks a respected friend for advice. This friend shows up with a thug carrying a gun and tells the patient that he may use his free will and accept a transfusion but this thug may arbitrarily decide to shoot the patient at any time after the transfusion was accepted.

That is not the exercize of free will, it's thought coercion.

In all forms of thought coercion the immediate objective is to force other people to act as if their basic choice rules were identical to those of the coercing party. However, this mere conformity of “outward” behaviour is but a first step. The true and final aim of thought coercion is to induce a change in the victim’s objective function itself, i.e. the basic set of values and rules by which the victim determines his or her own choice among the alternatives of any feasible set. Thought coercion is thus generally meant to be only temporary. Once the desired change in values has been brought about, the victim is expected to conform spontaneously, without any need for further coercion.

Additionally, blood transfusions are not against God's law. The law specifically prohibits ingesting blood and was aimed at keeping the Israelites and later, the first century Christians separate from the ritualistic practice of drinking blood. Hospitals are not in the habit of offering human tissue, whether it's blood or organs, for consumption and there is certainly nothing ritualistic or religious about tissue transplants during surgery.

This doctrine banning blood transfusions is a hold-over from the Watchtower Society's disdain for modern medicine. Vaccines used to be banned as well as organ transplants.

*** w67 11/15 p. 702 Questions From Readers ***

Some might argue that therapeutic practices involved in modern organ transplant operations are more scientific than such primitive treatment. Nonetheless, it is evident that men practicing medicine have not been beyond using treatments that amount to cannibalism if such have been thought justified.
***

*** w75 9/1 p. 519 Insight on the News ***

A peculiar factor sometimes noted is a so-called ‘personality transplant.’ That is, the recipient in some cases has seemed to adopt certain personality factors of the person from whom the organ came. One young promiscuous woman who received a kidney from her older, conservative, well-behaved sister, at first seemed very upset. Then she began imitating her sister in much of her conduct. Another patient claimed to receive a changed outlook on life after his kidney transplant. Following a transplant, one mild-tempered man became aggressive like the donor. The problem may be largely or wholly mental. But it is of interest, at least, that the Bible links the kidneys closely with human emotions.—Compare Jeremiah 17:10 and Revelation 2:23.
***

"Vaccination never prevented anything and never will, and is the most barbarous practice...We are in the last days; and the devil is slowly losing his hold, making a strenuous effort meanwhile to do all the damage he can, and to his credit can such evils be placed...Use your rights as American citizens to forever abolish the devilish practice of vaccinations." Golden Age 1921 October 12 p.17

"Vaccination is a direct violation of the everlasting covenant that God made with Noah after the flood." Golden Age 1931 February 4 p.293

And apparently the Watchtower Society knows about what is and isn't healthy. Take for example aluminum...

"As a result of the publication of wholesome truth on the subject, there are fewer people now purchasing aluminium cooking utensils than heretofore. There is also a pronounced drop in the cancer death rate. Much aluminium used: many cancers. Less aluminium used: fewer cancers." Golden Age 1930 May 28 p.650

"[Aluminium cooking utensils are] a curse to humanity and their manufacture and use should be forbidden by law." Golden Age 1932 October 26 p.35

"Remarkable Recovery of Sight
"I WAS blind and couldn't work," said Ellen Williams, of Georgia. "My arms would fall dead at my side and my whole right side became useless. Two years ago I discarded my aluminum ware, and my eyesight has come back. I don't use glasses now and am regaining use of my body gradually. I am sixty-five years of age. Thanks to The Golden Age for this information."
How He Lost His Mother "OH YES!" said Harry E. Childs, of Michigan, "we did have a fine set of aluminum cooking dishes. But never again; we dumped them all overboard. I will acknowledge that it hurt somewhat to see all that invested capital on the ash heap, and to have to start all over again. I have advertised aluminum poisoning well and widely, and we have spoiled the sale of a lot of it. My mother died of cancer. We are quite sure it was aluminum that caused it."
Cabbage a la Gall Stones
A SUBSCRIBER, Mrs. Mary E. Lovette, writes: "Our health is 99 percent better since discarding our aluminum ware. I had a sore throat continually, also stomach, bowel and bladder trouble. Often had to resort to pain pills. I nearly died from eating cabbage cooked in an aluminum kettle. The doctor was called at one o'clock at night and pronounced it 'gall stones'. For one week I was terribly ill; then put on a strict diet. Having discarded all aluminum ware, also alum baking powders, I am no longer on a diet and am getting much better." Golden Age 1933 10/11 p.11


"Sleep on the right side or flat on your back, with the head toward the north so as to get benefit of the earth's magnetic currents. Avoid serum inoculations as they pollute the blood stream with their filthy pus.... Stop chewing gum, as you need the saliva for your food." Golden Age 1929 November 12 p.107

The Watchtower Society's ban on blood transfusions is just as unscripturally based and much deadlier than some of the quackery above.

Shawn said...

Voice of Reason said:

An idiot said:
"Show me from the Bible where it says that a Christian must serve with an organization. Show me from the Bible where the requirement to serve with an organization is so important that it is a requirement for baptism."

Matt 28:19&20 Jesus says to go and make disciples. Those 11 apostles served together as and with an organization and not solo.
==================================

They weren't an 'organization'. The apostles were just that - followers of Jesus. They didn't keep records of other Christians field service time, they didn't disfellowship people. They told others about the good news, that's it.

Show me from the scriptures where the apostles ran an organization.

Shawn said...

Voice of Reason has left a new comment on the post "United States Branch Statistics Direct From The Se...":

shawn said:
"No, show me where exjws have printed that the end would come on those dates... because I can show you where the Watchtower Society printed them..."

What you just copied and pasted is the proof.
==================================

Yes, it's proof that the Watchtower Society predicted dates. I want you to prove your claim that exjws predict dates. Now either you're going to substantiate your claims or you will once again look like a fool for shooting off your mouth with no evidence.

Anonymous said...

Thank you so much Shawn for catching the ever slippery Ronde. This character is as shady as they come - where did he learn this from, I wonder?

What I like Shawn is that you have presented indisbutable quotes from JW's literature. It can't be argued against because the evidence speaks for itself. This is why so many are leaving this relgion (not because they don't love Jehovah, not because they don't love Jesus, not because they've become materialistic or are committing immorality... no, but because the GB/WTS/F&DS/JW's are not the only true religion as they "claim" to be.)

www.freeminds.org
www.sixscreensofthewatchtower.com
www.jwfacts.com

Anonymous said...

Just wanted to let everyone know that 'V' has officially opened his 'Watchtower Comments' site.

http://www.watchtowercomments.com/questions.html

rondes shadow said...

T. J. Ronde
Your SUCH an idiot.
Ps. Use your own lines.

Anonymous said...

Wow... this hits the nail on the head (esp. for people like Ronde):

http://www.youtube.com/wtcomments

Anonymous said...

One of the 'Thou Shalt Not' lists for JW. (Rules? What Rules?)

http://thedreampushers.blogspot.com/2008/10/appendix-thy-shall-not.html

Anonymous said...

I heard just today, that a well-respected, long-time elder in a nearby congregation has written his letter of disassociation.

Encouraging news!

greg said...

Voice of Reason, once again you ignore my question. It doesn't matter, your answer would of been irrelavent because what you say you believe about 'the generation' is not what JWs believe. JWs don't believe anymore that 'the generation' applies to the wicked or those alive in 1914. Those interpretations are 'old light'. They now believe it applies to the annointed, as they did in 1927.

Anonymous said...

Hi, will the latest ANON please give the congregation name and location so that I can verify this.

(Don't worry, I won't tell anyone where I heard about this. Also, providing this information lends creditability to the post.)

Anonymous said...

Never share personal information with anyone loyal to the destructive cult known as Jehovah's Witnesses.

The elder that disassociated himself should be in charge of dispensing personal information.

Voice of Reason said...

I've just heard today that a disrespected long time apostate started to serve Jehovah again with his people.

Anonymous said...

This would help to know the congregation (not the name of the individual). What's so personal about the congregational name? I mean, he doesn't go there anymore, so what's the problem?

Oh well, I guess I can't take this post too seriously then.

Anonymous said...

VOR/Ronde stated: "I've just heard today that a disrespected long time apostate started to serve Jehovah again with his people."

Geez, that's sounds like you VOR/Ronde??? lol

p.s. When you can't say anything intelligent and people like Shawn show up the buffon that you are, then I guess you're left with making silly/stupid responses that have no substance. Boy, you're so outed Ronde. You really are an apostate of a different type, aren't you.

Anonymous said...

Ronde: "Hello, is the ________ congregation secretary?"

JW Secretary: "It is. Why do you ask?"

Ronde: "I'm trying to confirm something I read on an Apostate website."

JW Secretary: "What did you say your name was, again?"

Ronde: [crickets]

CLICK

JW Secretary: "Hello? Hello? Are you there, Ronde?"