All I can say right now is that this organization is so messed up with everything that has come out about them (i.e. read this blog).
Many more are leaving because the claim that JW's is the only true religion is just that, a hallow claim by men who think that God hand-picked them. How's that for humility?
This is obviously not true. It is suggesting that more then 200,000 prfessed Chrsitians are voting. Not only would their be much more of an international uproaor over this, but the WTBTS would have released an official statement. First ofall, WT Public Policy dictates that all official statements by any Public Affairs Dpt. (even at a curcuit assembly or DC) has to be approved by the Headquaters legal and Public information offices. Their is no such record of any approval. Witynesses may cast a ballot, only if they void it in someway and make it clear that they do not support any political party. Deapite whatever national laws or pressure esists in any country, all true Christians know that voting for a human ruler would be completely unnuetral and they would be disassociating themselves. Unless you're suggesting that the Ghana Branch, currently one of the largest growing ones, is now completely disassociated from the rest of the Organization.
Matt says "...all true Christians [Meaning Jehovah’s Witnesses alone, for they teach that all followers of Christ Jesus not members of the Watchtower Organization are “false religion”] know that voting for a human ruler would be completely unnuetral and they would be disassociating themselves."
The WTBTS’s Public Affairs officer at Accra reiterates WT HQ’s statement that voting [like blood transfusion] "it's up to one’s conscience". However, as Matt pointed out, if you should vote your conscience you'd be disassociating yourself from that religion. That means that if you did vote every JW—your family included--would be REQUIRED to shun you as evil. Shunning a disfellowshipped/disassociated person is NOT a matter of individual conscience. Any Witness talking to or eating with a brother JW who decided to vote could/would himself be disfellowshipped for associating with that one.
What do you think? Does that sound like Watchtower followers are really free to vote if they want to? Or does that policy sound more like an institution protecting itself from the legal consequences of advising its members not to vote?
Nobody that I ever knew was ever DF'd for associating with someone thats DF'd! It never happens. Mothers talk to their kids & family members still associate with DF'd members. Friends that get DF'd still have friends that are JW's. Of course all of this is done on the down-low. Active & in good standing, JW's that I know personally that brag about getting drunk every weekend and many times get drunk with DF's JW's. They don't get in trouble. I have never known a member in the 30+ yrs that I was active to ever be DF'd for associating with someone that is DF'd much less disassociated. PS: I voted for Obama this year. Don't worry I won't be inviting any of you JW's over for Thanksgiving this year!!! *snark* You can "stay away" from me. And thats MY choice!
That is what I have been telling this Shawn. JWs vote if they want to. The difference is that they usually don't want to as it really doesn't matter. The outcome does not affect who they are and what they do.
JWs can and do vote as individuals but as a religion, they don't because look at the trouble that the Mormons are in over prop 8 and their campaigning for it.
"if you should vote your conscience you'd be disassociating yourself from that religion. That means that if you did vote every JW—your family included--would be REQUIRED to shun you as evil. Shunning a disfellowshipped/disassociated person is NOT a matter of individual conscience."
That, I repeat, is not true.
I have voted in the past and was not and am not shunned or disfellowshipped. But if one campaigns and makes the politics an issue in the congregation, then one would be not neutral.
Edward Albright said... That is what I have been telling this Shawn. JWs vote if they want to. The difference is that they usually don't want to as it really doesn't matter. The outcome does not affect who they are and what they do.
The outcome certainly affects them. The reality is they live in a world in which the people being voted into office will have an impact both directly and indirectly upon their life.
There is not a thing wrong with a Christian being INVOLVED with politics. In fact, it can promote their God-given directive of being the light of the world.
"I have voted in the past and was not and am not shunned or disfellowshipped.
Interesting. Do the Elders know that you have vote for worldly government leaders or did you keep that a secret so you wouldn't face the Judicial Committee and risk being D/F'd?
"But if one campaigns and makes the politics an issue in the congregation, then one would be not neutral."
Are you saying that it is "neutral" for a Jehovah's Witness to select a leader of the Western World but not "neutral" to discuss that in the KH?
I guess you'll have to define "neutral" for us...and define "ethical" while you're at it.
Thought you might like to know what the Elder's handbook "Pay Attention to Yourselves And To All the Flock" has to say about Jehovah's Witnesses voting:
"Jehovah’s Witnesses maintain neutrality with regard to the political and military affairs of the nations.
Since true dedicated Christians are "no part of the world," if a member of the congregation unrepentantly pursues a course in violation of his Christian neutrality, [listed as voting, running for office, campaigning, etc.] HE THEREBY DISASSOCIATES himself from the neutral Christian congregation...The individual should be TREATED AS ONE WHO IS DISFELLOWSHIPPED." [Emphasis added]
"Do the Elders know that you have vote for worldly government leaders or did you keep that a secret so you wouldn't face the Judicial Committee and risk being D/F'd?"
I have sex with my wife but the elders don't know that because I keep that a secret. Is that so I won't face any judicial matters? No, it is because it is personal and not their business. The same with voting. The only thing that will get people in trouble is if they do not keep it personal, just as if they go around telling other of their marital escapades they would get in trouble. Private matters should be kept private.
You all are good at reading texts and thinking that it what applies but you don't know about understanding them.
"pursues a course in violation of his Christian neutrality,"
Is that so black and white?
Note, it says "his" neutrality. Not others, but his.
Others do not decide what is neutral for him.
And what offices does it apply to? Non-partisan or all?
Is it a violation of one's neutrality to run for dog catcher, drain commissioner, judge, county clerk? None require politics or violation of neutrality.
The issue is that JWs don't want to put their time and focus on a J-O-B. They would be focusing on the preaching of the good news of the kingdom.
I would suggest that you stop getting your information from those books as it is misleading you and to think on the matter.
Private matters should be kept private; however, the Watchtower Society has felt the need to comment on private matters such as oral and anal sex between a husband and wife, medical advice, the pursing of higher education and many other topics. Certainly these should be private matters, but the Watchtower Society has given its opinion and restrictions on such matters. The Watchtower Society trains Jehovah Witnesses that they are the sole communication channel with God, so followers will listen or are taught to have the fear of dying at Armegeddon.
Furthermore, voting is indeed considered a disfellowshipping matter. See the publication "Pay Attention To Yourselves and All The Flock" [Jehovah's Witnesses Elder's Manuel as put forth by the Watchtower Society] Unit 5 pages 139 and 140.
You all are good at reading texts and thinking that it what applies but you don't know about understanding them
Just because application is not made according to how the Watchtower Society states it should be applied does not make it incorrect. It makes it not in agreement with the Watchtower Society. Your statement is an example of fallacy.
Others do not decide what is neutral for him.
You may want to believe that is true, but the Watchtower Society teaches its followers what they can and cannot do in may areas of life including what constitutes neutrality.
They would be focusing on the preaching of the good news of the kingdom.
The good news Jehovah's Witnesses preach includes the invisible return of Jesus Christ in 1914. That is a part of dispensationalism.
I would suggest that you stop getting your information from those books as it is misleading you and to think on the matter.
The same can very well be recommended for you. There are many reasons why one should avoid being one of Jehovah's Witnesses.
"Private matters should be kept private; however, the Watchtower Society has felt the need to comment on private matters such as oral and anal sex between a husband and wife, medical advice, the pursing of higher education and many other topics."
Ok, so they comment on it. Your mama can comment on it too but that does not mean that you have to do what your mama says about those things does it (when you are over 18). So because the WTS comments on things, does not mean that a person must do things that way.
"Furthermore, voting is indeed considered a disfellowshipping matter. See the publication "Pay Attention "
It directs the elders who oversee the congregations of Jehovah's Witnesses. They do and will enforce what is written in its pages to the memebers of the congregation.
Voice of Reason said... "That response is called Cognitive Dissonance. "
So you just classify things rather than writing from the Bible.
Many things have been posted from the Bible showing the problems with the Watchtower Society as well as from the pages of the Watchtower Society's own watchtower magazine proving the worngs theyt either push aside or ignore.
Your statement of classification is not denying the facts. Rather it is a fallacy known as Rhetorical Fallacy. The facts are the sickness of false reasoning and teaching spewing forth and resulting in Cognitive Dissonance from yourself and others who post at times is easily evident.
If you want to stop being called out on such things, then stop using them.
24 comments:
All I can say right now is that this organization is so messed up with everything that has come out about them (i.e. read this blog).
Many more are leaving because the claim that JW's is the only true religion is just that, a hallow claim by men who think that God hand-picked them. How's that for humility?
This is obviously not true. It is suggesting that more then 200,000 prfessed Chrsitians are voting. Not only would their be much more of an international uproaor over this, but the WTBTS would have released an official statement. First ofall, WT Public Policy dictates that all official statements by any Public Affairs Dpt. (even at a curcuit assembly or DC) has to be approved by the Headquaters legal and Public information offices. Their is no such record of any approval. Witynesses may cast a ballot, only if they void it in someway and make it clear that they do not support any political party. Deapite whatever national laws or pressure esists in any country, all true Christians know that voting for a human ruler would be completely unnuetral and they would be disassociating themselves. Unless you're suggesting that the Ghana Branch, currently one of the largest growing ones, is now completely disassociated from the rest of the Organization.
Matt says "...all true Christians [Meaning Jehovah’s Witnesses alone, for they teach that all followers of Christ Jesus not members of the Watchtower Organization are “false religion”] know that voting for a human ruler would be completely unnuetral and they would be disassociating themselves."
The WTBTS’s Public Affairs officer at Accra reiterates WT HQ’s statement that voting [like blood transfusion] "it's up to one’s conscience". However, as Matt pointed out, if you should vote your conscience you'd be disassociating yourself from that religion. That means that if you did vote every JW—your family included--would be REQUIRED to shun you as evil. Shunning a disfellowshipped/disassociated person is NOT a matter of individual conscience. Any Witness talking to or eating with a brother JW who decided to vote could/would himself be disfellowshipped for associating with that one.
What do you think? Does that sound like Watchtower followers are really free to vote if they want to? Or does that policy sound more like an institution protecting itself from the legal consequences of advising its members not to vote?
Nobody that I ever knew was ever DF'd for associating with someone thats DF'd! It never happens. Mothers talk to their kids & family members still associate with DF'd members. Friends that get DF'd still have friends that are JW's. Of course all of this is done on the down-low. Active & in good standing, JW's that I know personally that brag about getting drunk every weekend and many times get drunk with DF's JW's. They don't get in trouble. I have never known a member in the 30+ yrs that I was active to ever be DF'd for associating with someone that is DF'd much less disassociated. PS: I voted for Obama this year. Don't worry I won't be inviting any of you JW's over for Thanksgiving this year!!! *snark* You can "stay away" from me. And thats MY choice!
Nobody that I ever knew was ever DF'd for associating with someone thats DF'd! It never happens.
It DOES happen.
That is what I have been telling this Shawn. JWs vote if they want to. The difference is that they usually don't want to as it really doesn't matter. The outcome does not affect who they are and what they do.
JWs can and do vote as individuals but as a religion, they don't because look at the trouble that the Mormons are in over prop 8 and their campaigning for it.
"if you should vote your conscience you'd be disassociating yourself from that religion. That means that if you did vote every JW—your family included--would be REQUIRED to shun you as evil. Shunning a disfellowshipped/disassociated person is NOT a matter of individual conscience."
That, I repeat, is not true.
I have voted in the past and was not and am not shunned or disfellowshipped. But if one campaigns and makes the politics an issue in the congregation, then one would be not neutral.
edward albright wrote: "That, I repeat, is not true"
Another phony JW.
If a JW votes for a political candidate -- and the elders know it -- that person will have DA's himself.
Period.
Edward Albright said...
That is what I have been telling this Shawn. JWs vote if they want to. The difference is that they usually don't want to as it really doesn't matter. The outcome does not affect who they are and what they do.
It DOES matter.
The outcome certainly affects them. The reality is they live in a world in which the people being voted into office will have an impact both directly and indirectly upon their life.
There is not a thing wrong with a Christian being INVOLVED with politics. In fact, it can promote their God-given directive of being the light of the world.
"I have voted in the past and was not and am not shunned or disfellowshipped.
Interesting. Do the Elders know that you have vote for worldly government leaders or did you keep that a secret so you wouldn't face the Judicial Committee and risk being D/F'd?
"But if one campaigns and makes the politics an issue in the congregation, then one would be not neutral."
Are you saying that it is "neutral" for a Jehovah's Witness to select a leader of the Western World but not "neutral" to discuss that in the KH?
I guess you'll have to define "neutral" for us...and define "ethical" while you're at it.
Thought you might like to know what the Elder's handbook "Pay Attention to Yourselves And To All the Flock" has to say about Jehovah's Witnesses voting:
"Jehovah’s Witnesses maintain neutrality with regard to the political and military affairs of the nations.
Since true dedicated Christians are "no part of the world," if a member of the congregation unrepentantly pursues a course in violation of his Christian neutrality, [listed as voting, running for office, campaigning, etc.] HE THEREBY DISASSOCIATES himself from the neutral Christian congregation...The individual should be TREATED AS ONE WHO IS DISFELLOWSHIPPED." [Emphasis added]
"Do the Elders know that you have vote for worldly government leaders or did you keep that a secret so you wouldn't face the Judicial Committee and risk being D/F'd?"
I have sex with my wife but the elders don't know that because I keep that a secret. Is that so I won't face any judicial matters? No, it is because it is personal and not their business. The same with voting. The only thing that will get people in trouble is if they do not keep it personal, just as if they go around telling other of their marital escapades they would get in trouble. Private matters should be kept private.
Anon,
You all are good at reading texts and thinking that it what applies but you don't know about understanding them.
"pursues a course in violation of his Christian neutrality,"
Is that so black and white?
Note, it says "his" neutrality. Not others, but his.
Others do not decide what is neutral for him.
And what offices does it apply to? Non-partisan or all?
Is it a violation of one's neutrality to run for dog catcher, drain commissioner, judge, county clerk? None require politics or violation of neutrality.
The issue is that JWs don't want to put their time and focus on a J-O-B. They would be focusing on the preaching of the good news of the kingdom.
I would suggest that you stop getting your information from those books as it is misleading you and to think on the matter.
Private matters should be kept private.
Private matters should be kept private; however, the Watchtower Society has felt the need to comment on private matters such as oral and anal sex between a husband and wife, medical advice, the pursing of higher education and many other topics. Certainly these should be private matters, but the Watchtower Society has given its opinion and restrictions on such matters. The Watchtower Society trains Jehovah Witnesses that they are the sole communication channel with God, so followers will listen or are taught to have the fear of dying at Armegeddon.
Furthermore, voting is indeed considered a disfellowshipping matter. See the publication "Pay Attention To Yourselves and All The Flock" [Jehovah's Witnesses Elder's Manuel as put forth by the Watchtower Society] Unit 5 pages 139 and 140.
You all are good at reading texts and thinking that it what applies but you don't know about understanding them
Just because application is not made according to how the Watchtower Society states it should be applied does not make it incorrect. It makes it not in agreement with the Watchtower Society. Your statement is an example of fallacy.
Others do not decide what is neutral for him.
You may want to believe that is true, but the Watchtower Society teaches its followers what they can and cannot do in may areas of life including what constitutes neutrality.
They would be focusing on the preaching of the good news of the kingdom.
The good news Jehovah's Witnesses preach includes the invisible return of Jesus Christ in 1914. That is a part of dispensationalism.
I would suggest that you stop getting your information from those books as it is misleading you and to think on the matter.
The same can very well be recommended for you. There are many reasons why one should avoid being one of Jehovah's Witnesses.
"Private matters should be kept private; however, the Watchtower Society has felt the need to comment on private matters such as oral and anal sex between a husband and wife, medical advice, the pursing of higher education and many other topics."
Ok, so they comment on it. Your mama can comment on it too but that does not mean that you have to do what your mama says about those things does it (when you are over 18). So because the WTS comments on things, does not mean that a person must do things that way.
"Furthermore, voting is indeed considered a disfellowshipping matter. See the publication "Pay Attention "
That is not what directs Jehovah's Witnesses.
That is not what directs Jehovah's Witnesses.
It directs the elders who oversee the congregations of Jehovah's Witnesses. They do and will enforce what is written in its pages to the memebers of the congregation.
So because the WTS comments on things, does not mean that a person must do things that way.
Maybe not according to you, but that is what Jehovah's Witnesses are taught.
Toshibor,
yada yada yada
That is the best way I can reason what you said, which is unreasonable.
Voice of Reason could only respond: "That is the best way I can reason what you said, which is unreasonable."
Ah! You've finally given yourself a more appropriate alias: "Voice of Unreasonable"
LOL
Voice of Reason said...
Toshibor,
yada yada yada
That is the best way I can reason what you said, which is unreasonable.
That response is called Cognitive Dissonance.
"That response is called Cognitive Dissonance."
Exactly and people like Sheeplike, Voice of Reason, Ronde, etc. epitomize this in their posts.
"That response is called Cognitive Dissonance. "
So you just classify things rather than writing from the Bible.
Voice of Reason said...
"That response is called Cognitive Dissonance. "
So you just classify things rather than writing from the Bible.
Many things have been posted from the Bible showing the problems with the Watchtower Society as well as from the pages of the Watchtower Society's own watchtower magazine proving the worngs theyt either push aside or ignore.
Your statement of classification is not denying the facts. Rather it is a fallacy known as Rhetorical Fallacy. The facts are the sickness of false reasoning and teaching spewing forth and resulting in Cognitive Dissonance from yourself and others who post at times is easily evident.
If you want to stop being called out on such things, then stop using them.
BTW...
Voice of Reason said...
Toshibor,
yada yada yada
That is the best way I can reason what you said, which is unreasonable.
...Is not "writing from the Bible" either. So besides your argument fallacies, you might want to start practicing what you preach.
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