Wednesday, November 12, 2008

Contributions To The Watchtower

August 1879 in the second issue of The Watchtower (then called Zion's Watch Tower), it said:
"'Zion's Watch Tower' has, we believe, JEHOVAH for its backer, and while this is the case it will never beg nor petition men for support. When He who says: 'All the gold and silver of the mountains are mine,' fails to provide necessary funds, we will understand it to be time to suspend the publication.
However:
Last night one of the elders had a part in the Service Meeting where he informed the congregation that we are not sending our fair share to the Watchtower. The congregation seems to be doing okay when it comes to contributing to the local congregation so that electric bills can be paid and so forth. But when it comes to literature (The Worldwide Work), the congregation is woefully negligent.
According to this brother, a circuit overseer has recently stated that if Witnesses still had to pay for their literature as they used to, individual Watchtower and Awake! magazines would now cost about $1 with inflation, as opposed to the $.25 they cost before the Society went to voluntary donations.
Based on that math, our congregation should be sending close to $1500 per month for the Worldwide Work. The congregation averages $600 per month. The elder speaking says that this is pitiful for two reasons.
First, the congregation isn't even covering for the literature that it is receiving every month, based upon that one Circuit Overseer's estimations. Secondly, as a congregation in a first world country (running water, internet, SUVs, etc.) congregations should also be covering for those Witnesses in places where they simply do not have the money to contribue for literature, and yet they do receive it. (Why doesn't the Watchtower just wait on Jehovah to provide?)

75 comments:

Anonymous said...

What on earth is that last comment about? It is disgusting.

Anonymous said...

If that is what the elder said, then he was wrong. I have the following observations, though:

(1) In my 30 years in the truth, I have never heard anything like that said from the platform. Frankly, I doubt that this is a completely accurate account of what was said. In what congregation was it?

(2) Even if the brother did say that on the platform, he was not instructed by the organization to do so, and was consequently presenting his own opinion. I do not believe that anything similar was said in other congregations. It is unfair to take what one person allegedly said in one congregation and generalize it as though it were the policy of the Governing Body and Jehovah's Witnesses all over the world, which it most definitely is not.

(3) I have been in congregations that sent a lot of contributions in, and in some that sent very little. We never had a letter from the Branch Office saying that we were not contributing enough.

(4) The Branch Office has always continued providing the literature we need regardless of the contributions we sent. It even generously provides literature - free of charge - to people who misuse it to oppose the organization's work.

(5) I never saw a collection at any of Jehovah's Witnesses' meetings and was never asked to pay a tithe.

(6) If the Branch Office wanted us to think in terms of a certain amount per piece of literature, as implied in your posting, then surely they would have provided congregations with an updated list of suggested contributions.

(7) There is nothing wrong with the organization bringing to the congregations' attention the need for funds to support the preaching work. Generosity and support of the Christian congregation is a fine quality. And if we have the means to help brothers and sisters in other countries have their own Kingdom Halls, then it is our privilege - and great joy - to do so.

Anonymous said...

What on earth is that last comment about? It is disgusting.

The saying of the true proverb has happened to them: "The dog has returned to its own vomit, and the sow that was bathed to rolling in the mire." (2 Peter 2:22)

Anonymous said...

Why doesn't the Watchtower just wait on Jehovah to provide?

But they have waited on Jehovah to provide, and he has done so - in a big way!

Back in the mid-1980's when the literature was generally offered for a fixed contribution, who would have thought that millions of magazines, books, Bibles, videos, CD's and DVD's could be just given away? Least of all those who view the Watch Tower Society as a business concern.

It is almost 20 years since the arrangement came into effect in the US. The last branches to make the change did so in 2000.

Since then, millions of books and magazines have been distributed free of charge, giving the lie to opposers' claim that the Watch Tower "sells books". More than 70,000,000 magazines are printed every month and made available without charge - an inconceivable business model in the world. Not to mention the thousands of Kingdom Halls that have been built! And all of that without any pressure to donate.

I believe that this is clear evidence of Jehovah's blessing.

Anonymous said...

Would all, regardless of religious views, like to join me in condemning today's first comment as filth and an insult to respectful discussion?

Anonymous said...

i can remember myself that it was said from the platform that one should donate at least what he paid fpr the publications before when they went "free of charge". actually this change was made because of the taxes that would eat up more money than lower donations. thats why in france the jws protested to the government about the donation taxes.

every other other week in my congregation there is a "local needs" talk about donations. giving the members guilt for not paying enough. i dont see how much that differs from collecting money directly.

Anonymous said...

every other other week in my congregation there is a "local needs" talk about donations. giving the members guilt for not paying enough. i dont see how much that differs from collecting money directly.


I'd love to know how that was possible, since there is only 1 local needs part per month.

rondes shadow said...

It was a colloquialism.... an expression not a literal statement.
A bit like when the WTBTS state that JW's have complete freedom to serve God on a personal level.

tohsibor said...

It is indeed a 180 degree turn from 'Waiting On Jehovah' to the testimony posted including the pleading and guilting that Jehovah's Witnesses are being exposed to in their congregations now. The notion and push to send more money goes hand-in-hand with the Watchtower Society publishing such articles like this from the November 1, 2007 Watchtower, page 21:

"*** w07 11/1 p. 21 "The Silver Is Mine, and the Gold Is Mine" ***To assist individuals desiring to benefit the worldwide work of Jehovah’s Witnesses through some form of charitable planning, a brochure has been prepared in English and Spanish entitled 'Charitable Planning to Benefit Kingdom Service Worldwide'. The brochure was written to provide information on a variety of ways that gifts may be made either now or through a bequest at death. After reading the brochure and conferring with their own legal or tax advisers, many have been able to help support the religious and humanitarian activities of Jehovah’s Witnesses worldwide and maximize their tax benefits while doing so. This brochure may be obtained by requesting a copy directly from the Charitable Planning Office."
***

Notice the incentive of "maximize their tax benefits". That does not read as from an organization who is 'Waiting on Jehovah'.

Perhaps they can save money by stop printing more copies of 'Charitable Planning to Benefit Kingdom Service Worldwide'.

Additionally, they can save a ton of money by focusing on printing and distributing Bibles instead of the Watchtower magazine. Their version of the Bible [The New Wolrd Translation] is only translated and avaliable in a fraction amount compared to their Watchtower magazine. The focus should be on the Bible not the Watchtower magazine.

Shawn said...

It's true, there is no tithing or collection plate passed around, but at a minimum every year on November first, the Watchtower has an article devoted to asking for money.

*** w03 11/1 pp. 27-28 Cultivate a Giving Spirit ***

David’s Generous Support of True Worship

For almost 500 years, the ark of the covenant—a sacred chest that represented Jehovah’s presence—had no permanent resting place. It was kept in a tent, or tabernacle, which was moved from place to place during Israel’s wandering in the wilderness and then on into the Promised Land. King David greatly desired to take the ark from the tent in which it was kept and build a suitable house for Jehovah that would contain the sacred ark. Speaking to the prophet Nathan, David said: “Here I am dwelling in a house of cedars, but the ark of the covenant of Jehovah is under tent cloths.”—1 Chronicles 17:1.

David, though, had been a man of war. So Jehovah decreed that it was his son Solomon who, during a peaceful reign, would build the temple to house the ark of the covenant. (1 Chronicles 22:7-10) This, however, did not stifle David’s giving spirit. Organizing a great task force, he set out to provide the materials that would be used in the temple’s construction. He later told Solomon: “I have prepared for Jehovah’s house a hundred thousand talents of gold and a million talents of silver, and the copper and the iron there is no means of weighing because they have come to be in such quantity; and timbers and stones I have prepared.” (1 Chronicles 22:14) Not content with that, out of his personal fortune, David contributed gold and silver with a present-day value of more than $1,200,000,000. Moreover, the princes contributed liberally as well. (1 Chronicles 29:3-9) Certainly, David exhibited a generous, giving spirit!
***

*** w03 12/1 p. 19 “Show Yourselves Thankful” ***

Demonstrating Thankfulness With Our “Valuable Things”

17 “Honor Jehovah with your valuable things,” notes Proverbs 3:9, “and with the firstfruits of all your produce.” Servants of Jehovah no longer need to tithe. Rather, Paul wrote to the Corinthian congregation: “Let each one do just as he has resolved in his heart, not grudgingly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.” (2 Corinthians 9:7) Making voluntary contributions to support the worldwide Kingdom-preaching work also demonstrates our thankfulness. Heartfelt appreciation motivates us to do this regularly, possibly setting aside something on a weekly basis, as did the early Christians.—1 Corinthians 16:1, 2.
***

*** w02 11/1 p. 30 Supporters of True Worship—Then and Now ***

Characteristics of Voluntary Giving

In his letters to the Corinthians, the apostle Paul mentioned three significant characteristics of voluntary giving. (1) When writing about a monetary collection, Paul instructed: “Every first day of the week let each of you at his own house set something aside.” (1 Corinthians 16:2a) Thus, giving needs to be planned in advance, and it needs to be done systematically. (2) Paul also wrote that each person should give “in keeping with his income.” (1 Corinthians 16:2b, New International Version) In other words, an individual who wants to share in voluntary giving can do so proportionately. Even if a Christian earns but little, the resulting small amount that he may contribute is valued by Jehovah. (Luke 21:1-4) (3) Paul further wrote: “Let each one do just as he has resolved in his heart, not grudgingly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.” (2 Corinthians 9:7) Sincere Christians give from the heart—cheerfully.
*** [italics original]

Even though there is no requirement to donate, the Watchtower Society tells its members "Thus, giving needs to be planned in advance, and it needs to be done systematically."

*** w02 12/15 p. 11 par. 17 “Draw Close to God” ***

17 When we give to Jehovah, we should do so gladly, “for God loves a cheerful giver.” (2 Corinthians 9:7) The principle recorded at Deuteronomy 16:17 can help us to give cheerfully: “The gift of each one’s hand should be in proportion to the blessing of Jehovah your God that he has given you.” When we contemplate how generous Jehovah has been with us, we feel a desire to give freely to him. Such giving makes his heart rejoice, much the way a little gift from a beloved child delights a parent. Expressing our love in this way will help us draw close to Jehovah.
***

Look! Contributions to the Watchtower Society are actually to Jehovah. Just one more instance of the Watchtower Society assuming divine power.

So even though the Watchtower Society does not 'require' donations, they are very helpful in reminding their members that their contributions should be weekly and be in proportion to how much they appreciate Jehovah.

While there's nothing wrong with asking for donations, claiming that they are donations to Jehovah is wrong. Jehovah doesn't need your money, the Watchtower Society does. Jehovah doesn't even need an organization. Jesus did not set up a corporation while he was on earth. The Watchtower Society has unilaterally decided to insert itself between Christians and God... and make those Christians pay for the 'privilege' of no longer having a relationship with God without their organization.

Edward Albright said...

I don't see advertising in the magazines. I don't see product placements or even selling of naming rights.

Regular reminders of the need is nothing to be ashamed of when they don't commercialize.

Anonymous said...

Not to mention the dishonesty (that we've discussed before) regarding the kickbacks given to Watchtower by the venues rented for the conventions.

They read an expense report, but fail to tell the audience they started with a $6,000 surplus from the Chamber of Commerce.

tohsibor said...

Edward Albright said...
I don't see advertising in the magazines. I don't see product placements or even selling of naming rights.


I'm calling you out on your straw man argument. No one made the claims of "advertising in magazines", "product placement", or "naming rights".

Such rhetorical fallacy is common though for those that are constantly subjected to it from the Watchtower.

Anonymous said...

If the owner of this site had any class at all, he or she would immediately remove the offensive comment, without the need of being requested to do so. With that said I am asking the owner to delete it if he expects anyone to continue to read and or contribute.

Whether you still support the organization or not, anyone here should be offended at that comment. I am!

d.boon said...

yeah! what the heck is that all about?

Anonymous said...

I agree with the comment and it should stay. I will continue to post.

Anonymous said...

i can remember myself that it was said from the platform that one should donate at least what he paid fpr the publications before when they went "free of charge".

Nothing of the kind was ever said in any letter or publication of the organization. If it did happen, someone was speaking out of turn. But that proves nothing about the policy of the organization as a whole.

actually this change was made because of the taxes that would eat up more money than lower donations.

Surely there is nothing wrong with that. The people who donated it had already been taxed on it once. They donated to further the work of Jehovah's Witnesses, not for the government to get it. It would be pretty stupid to pay more tax than is legally required.


thats why in france the jws protested to the government about the donation taxes.

Actually, the tax issue in France came to light about five years after the GB first introduced the donation arrangement, so it could not have influenced their decision. Furthermore, the tax in France was on donations, not simply on money received for literature.

Jehovah's Witnesses have every right to protest - and legally challenge - the 60% tax imposed on their donations. No other religion has been made to pay it; it's obviously discriminatory.

every other other week in my congregation there is a "local needs" talk about donations. giving the members guilt for not paying enough. i dont see how much that differs from collecting money directly.

I don't believe that for a minute and neither does any other objective person who has attended our meetings.

Anonymous said...

Notice the incentive of "maximize their tax benefits". That does not read as from an organization who is 'Waiting on Jehovah'.

Tax breaks are hardly the motive for making donations; after all, millions of brothers and sisters make contributions without any tax benefits at all. But if some are available, then it would be pretty foolish not to take advantage of them, so that more can be achieved with the same amount of money.

All charitable organizations do this; I really can't see how anyone could object to it unless he was already bitterly prejudiced against Jehovah's Witnesses to start with.


Additionally, they can save a ton of money by focusing on printing and distributing Bibles instead of the Watchtower magazine. Their version of the Bible [The New Wolrd Translation] is only translated and avaliable in a fraction amount compared to their Watchtower magazine. The focus should be on the Bible not the Watchtower magazine.

Actually, enormous effort and expense has gone in to translating, publishing and distributing Bibles, to obvious effect. I don't know any of Jehovah's Witnesses who don't have a Bible; many of them have several. The Bible is also made available in the ministry to anyone who would benefit from having it. And, it's pretty obvious, isn't it, that you are going to print more magazines than you are Bibles. The magazines come out every month; you only need a new Bible every two or three years.

Similar comments could be made about the number of languages that the NWT is published in. At the last count, you could get it in 61 different languages. OK, so that's not quite as extensively as the 168 languages that 'The Watchtower' is published in, but if you consider that it was only available in 11 languages in 1986, then it's obvious that Jehovah's organization is putting more and more emphasis on making the Bible available.

Translating the Bible takes a long time, but as time goes by, we can be sure that the New World Translation will become available in as many languages as is humanly possible.

Anonymous said...

Look! Contributions to the Watchtower Society are actually to Jehovah. Just one more instance of the Watchtower Society assuming divine power.

But surely that's missing the point. If God is using an organization and I give some money to help that organization, then I am, in effect, giving to Jehovah.

Obviously, if you don't believe that this is God's organization, you will disagree. But the position is logically consistent nonetheless.

If you believed that God was using an organization on earth to do his will and that you could promote the doing of God's work by making a donation, in line with your circumstances, wouldn't you do it willingly? That is all that Jehovah's Witnesses are doing.

So even though the Watchtower Society does not 'require' donations, they are very helpful in reminding their members that their contributions should be weekly and be in proportion to how much they appreciate Jehovah.

And there is no reason why they should not make reminders. Making a donation is a "fine work" and the Bible says that we should incite one another to love and fine works.

For the brothers and sisters I know this just isn't an issue. They don't feel pressured to give. If they give, they do it because they want to.

While there's nothing wrong with asking for donations, claiming that they are donations to Jehovah is wrong.

No it is not. Again, you're not seeing it from our point of view. If the organization doesn't belong to Jehovah, then obviously the donations are not to Jehovah. But if it really is Jehovah's organization, then it's not at all unreasonable to say that donations made to it are giving to Jehovah.

Jehovah doesn't need your money, the Watchtower Society does.

No-one every said that he does need it. He could always find a way. Making a financial donation is a privilege because it means that you are using some of your resources for a work that you fervently believe in.

Jehovah doesn't even need an organization. Jesus did not set up a corporation while he was on earth.

So what? Corporations are legally recognized entities. They didn't exist in Jesus' day. He didn't say that they shouldn't set up corporations either.

Having corporations has enabled the good news to expand and be preached in all the world and to build thousands of places of worship. What is wrong with that?

Furthermore, it's hardly unusual for religious bodies to have legal corporations. I really don't see why it should be an issue.


The Watchtower Society has unilaterally decided to insert itself between Christians and God... and make those Christians pay for the 'privilege' of no longer having a relationship with God without their organization.

Of course you are wrong. You don't have to pay anything. But this is the crux of the matter. As long as you don't accept the premise that God has an organization on earth, then obviously the rest will not make sense to you. But just because you don't believe it it doesn't mean that we aren't allowed to. We believe that this is God's organization and we will support it every way that we can.

tohsibor said...

All charitable organizations do this

Correct. More the reason why they are just another organization which is not 'Waiting on Jehovah'.

At the last count, you could get it in 61 different languages. OK, so that's not quite as extensively as the 168 languages that 'The Watchtower' is published in, but if you consider that it was only available in 11 languages in 1986, then it's obvious that Jehovah's organization is putting more and more emphasis on making the Bible available.


Sure, but you still cannot erase the history or the present with those statements. Fact is the Watchtower magazine has been and still is more widely distributed than the Bible by Jehovah's Witnesses.


Translating the Bible takes a long time, but as time goes by, we can be sure that the New World Translation will become available in as many languages as is humanly possible.

That is a poor excuse and reasoning. The content of the Watchtower changes every month, but the Watchtower Society ensures it is translated in many more languages than their own Bible which has contains the same information for years.

Maybe they will change that in the future as it does appear blantly obvious and a clear example of what comes first.

tohsibor said...

As long as you don't accept the premise that God has an organization on earth, then obviously the rest will not make sense to you.

WRONG...That's another example of rhetorical fallacy

tohsibor said...

So what? Corporations are legally recognized entities. They didn't exist in Jesus' day. He didn't say that they shouldn't set up corporations either.

Having corporations has enabled the good news to expand and be preached in all the world and to build thousands of places of worship. What is wrong with that?

Furthermore, it's hardly unusual for religious bodies to have legal corporations. I really don't see why it should be an issue.


Another example rhetorical fallacy

Sure the Watchtower Society can be an organization and Jehovah's Witnesses can belong to an organization; but to claim they are the sole channel of communication from Jehovah God is a lie. To ignore a history of false prophesies and falied predictions along with covering up the facts and problems present within the organization is wrong.

Anonymous said...

Correct. More the reason why they are just another organization which is not 'Waiting on Jehovah'.

What basis do you have for saying that the Almighty does not want them to take advantage of tax breaks? By your logic, if I go to the supermarket and see potatoes at half price, I shouldn't buy them. I should insist on paying full price to show my trust in Jehovah.

God wants his servants to use their resources wisely, not squander them.

tohsibor said...

We believe that this is God's organization and we will support it every way that we can.

Belief of ~7 MILLION does not make it truth nor fact. The other ~7 BILLION people in the world believe differently.

tohsibor said...

What basis do you have for saying that the Almighty does not want them to take advantage of tax breaks?

Likewise, the same question can be asked what basis do you have for saying the Almighty does want them to take advantage of tax breaks?

tohsibor said...

What basis do you have for saying that the Almighty does not want them to take advantage of tax breaks? By your logic, if I go to the supermarket and see potatoes at half price, I shouldn't buy them. I should insist on paying full price to show my trust in Jehovah.

You logic is flawed. The person looking to purchase potatoes never made the claim of being God's sole channel of communication to people on this earth. A person's personal purchasing options is not the same as an organization who states they are the one true religion God has chosen. The one sole channel God is using to feed His people spirtually. Such direction does not need to rely on "tax breaks".

tohsibor said...

Furthermore, writing on the topic of money and funds, 'Waiting on Jehovah' would not go hand-in-hand with filing a amicus curiae ("friend of the court") brief with U.S. Supreme Court in behalf of the Jimmy Swaggart case.

The chain of factual events is such:

•Early 1980 State of California informs Jimmy Swaggart Ministries that tax is due for religious books and tapes sold in the state since 1974. Swaggart eventually pays the tax--$183,000.00--but sues for a refund. The case begins moving toward the U.S. Supreme Court.

•February, 1989 U.S. Supreme Court rules it is illegal for Texas (and 14 other states) to exempt religious books from sales tax. Some states had been taxing religious books all along.

•Summer, 1989 WT Society gives away "free" books released at U.S. conventions. Witnesses are instructed to place donations in contribution boxes to cover the cost.

•June 22, 1989 Watchtower Society, files amicus curiae ("friend of the court") brief with U.S. Supreme Court in Jimmy Swaggart case. Others filing similar briefs include National Council of Churches and Society for Krishna Consciousness.

•January 17, 1990 U.S. Supreme Court rules against Jimmy Swaggart Ministries, declaring that the sales tax must be paid.

•February 9, 1990 WT Society writes letter to congregations announcing that literature will no longer be sold at Kingdom Hall and no price will be set in door-to-door distribution.

•February 25, 1990 February 9th letter from Society is read at Sunday meetings of Jehovah's Witnesses across the United States.

•March 1, 1990 New policy of distributing literature without naming a price goes into effect.

•The March 15, 1990, WATCHTOWER magazine and March 22nd AWAKE!--printed earlier--still say "25 cents (U.S.) a copy" and "$5.00 (U.S.) per year." The April 1, 1990, Watchtower no longer carries a price.

•March 11, 1990 Announcement is made at Kingdom Halls in the U.S. that food will be available at no cost, on a freewill donation basis, at JW conventions.

Filing documents with Babylon the Great, supporting Jimmy Swaggart, donation arrangement with reliance on funds taxation decision from worldly government. That's not 'Waiting on Jehovah'.

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Bud said...

Not all comments deserve a response. Somethings should be ignored (and deleted).

Voice of Reason said...

The owner of this site has no class.

Why is he complaining about the part, why didn't he give it himself or take up the slack of the contributions.

Voice of Reason said...

" Their version of the Bible [The New Wolrd Translation] is only translated and avaliable in a fraction amount compared to their Watchtower magazine. "

The Bible, from ancient language to modern is much more difficult to translate than a magazine in modern language to another modern language.

Voice of Reason said...

"While there's nothing wrong with asking for donations, claiming that they are donations to Jehovah is wrong. "

No, it is not wrong.

If it is for the work that Jehovah is backing and commissioned then it is for Jehovah just as the gold and materials contributed to the tabernacle and temple were to Jehovah, though people built them.

Voice of Reason said...

"More the reason why they are just another organization which is not 'Waiting on Jehovah'."

So you believe in pennies from heaven??

"The content of the Watchtower changes every month, but the Watchtower Society ensures it is translated in many more languages than their own Bible which has contains the same information for years."

And there are other translations in those other languages too that work just as well. It is not a language competition.

Voice of Reason said...

"Another example rhetorical fallacy"

So you can't deal with the issues so you give everything designations.

Voice of Reason said...

"What basis do you have for saying that the Almighty does not want them to take advantage of tax breaks? By your logic, if I go to the supermarket and see potatoes at half price, I shouldn't buy them. I should insist on paying full price to show my trust in Jehovah.

God wants his servants to use their resources wisely, not squander them."

Thank you for posting this wisdom.
The apostates are just to stoopid to recognize that.

Voice of Reason said...

"Furthermore, writing on the topic of money and funds, 'Waiting on Jehovah' would not go hand-in-hand with filing a amicus curiae ("friend of the court") brief with U.S. Supreme Court in behalf of the Jimmy Swaggart case. "

And Jehovah did provide and has been.

He provided the law and the courts.

I find nothing wrong with what we- you did.

And if I, the voice of reason, finds nothing wrong with it, then there is nothing wrong with it.

Sheeplike said...

From reading the scriptures, we know that the Jews had contribution boxes at the temple. The first century Christians also had contribution boxes at their meetings.

So, the arrangement that Jehovah's Witnesses use is in harmony with the Bible. The CO in this post was acting on his own- if it really came out like that.

Sheeplike said...

Who is this Anonymous that keeps posting 'Fisting and God's Will?'

This is repulsive and certainly not christian. Spread your filth somewhere else.

Anonymous said...

Read the real truth about Jehovah's Witnesses. Protect yourself and your loved ones from yet another apocalyptic cult.

JW Facts

Anonymous said...

I have a feeling it is Ronde spreading this filth... why?

Well, you probably noticed that he'll stop at nothing to sabotage this web-blog and now has come up with a new plan.

Ronde, you are one disgusting JW.

Anonymous said...

Ronde stated: "And if I, the voice of reason, finds nothing wrong with it, then there is nothing wrong with it."

Kind of reminds you of the attitude of his leaders, the GB - they can never really be wrong because they always change things that have been proven wrong. Sort of like a moving target - very hard to nail down.

LOL

Anonymous said...

Ronde said: "And if I, the voice of reason, finds nothing wrong with it, then there is nothing wrong with it."

Well, maybe he just being a bit sarcastic.

trebor said...

The Bible, from ancient language to modern is much more difficult to translate than a magazine in modern language to another modern language.

Not with modern technology and all the languages the Bible has been translated into already. That's an excuse. If it is such a time consuming task, then again more the reason why the Watchtower magazine should not be taking priority over translating the Bible.

Again, the Watchtower magazine has and still takes priority over the Bible for the Watchtower Society.

trebor said...

So you believe in pennies from heaven??

That was never stated. What was stated is that basing a donation arrangement after losing a court case with false religion in a worldly court government is not 'Waiting on Jehovah'.

trebor said...

Voice of Reason said...
"Another example rhetorical fallacy"

So you can't deal with the issues so you give everything designations.



If that is what someone is doing then they will be called out on it. You cannot deny the facts. The fact is many times arguments presented by yourself and others are examples of rhetorical fallacy. Which again is no big surprise since the Watchtower magazine is also full of them.

trebor said...

voice of reason said...The apostates are just to stoopid to recognize that.

More name calling, which once again exemplifies your constant use of rhetorical fallacy.

trebor said...

Voice of Reason said...
"Furthermore, writing on the topic of money and funds, 'Waiting on Jehovah' would not go hand-in-hand with filing a amicus curiae ("friend of the court") brief with U.S. Supreme Court in behalf of the Jimmy Swaggart case. "

I find nothing wrong with what we- you did.



If you find nothing wrong with the Watchtower Society supporting and helping false religion that is your prerogative.

However, many would see the hypocrisy and wrong behind such actions.

Shawn said...

Voice of Reason has left a new comment on the post "Contributions To The Watchtower":

" Their version of the Bible [The New Wolrd Translation] is only translated and avaliable in a fraction amount compared to their Watchtower magazine. "

The Bible, from ancient language to modern is much more difficult to translate than a magazine in modern language to another modern language.
==================================

Ah, but the Watchtower Society didn't translate the Bible from an ancient language to a modern one!

The Watchtower Society lists its sources for the New World Translation. They are commonly known as the 'J' documents. The two most heavily used texts used by the Watchtower Society were a translation (version) of the original Greek Scriptures into Hebrew published by Elias Hutter of Nuremberg in 1599 and a translation published by an organization in England identified as THE TRINITARIAN BIBLE SOCIETY. How are these texts an authoritative witness? The dates of documents J1-J9 range from 1385-1661. The 14th and 15th centuries produced some of the most inaccurate translations that we have today. A translation from that time would have most likely have been based on the Textus Receptus which was basically any translation based on the the work of Desiderius Erasmus who based his translation primarily on two 12th century Greek texts which are known to contain many errors. In our time, we have so many sources that represent the oldest, best known manuscripts that date back to the 2nd,3rd, and 4th centuries that it seems odd at best that the Watchtower Society would choose a text from an era known by 20th century text critics to be a time of inaccurate translations. I could not find much information about the J17 and J18 documents by the Trinitarian Bible Society except that they were published in 1877 and 1885 respectively. Even so, why would a translation from Greek to Hebrew be any more of an authority than a translation from Greek to Japanese?

Furthermore, there were absolutely no members of the 'translation committee' who were actually able to translate from the original ancient languages into any other language.

* "Fred Franz however, was the only one with sufficient knowledge of the Bible languages to attempt translation of this kind. He had studied Greek for two years in the University of Cincinnati but was only self-taught in Hebrew." ["Crisis of Conscience"; by Raymond Franz; Commentary Press, Atlanta; 1983 edition; footnote 15; page 50.]

However, in 1954 the Watchtower Society was on trial in Scotland in order to prove that Jehovah's Witnesses were a genuine religion whose members could be exempt from military service, Franz was put to the test regarding his abilities as a translator. I have the scan of the entire transcript of this trial if anyone is interested.

Tuesday, 23rd November, 1954:
Frederick William Franz, Examined:

Q. Have you also made yourself familiar with Hebrew?
A. Yes....
Q. So that you have a substantial linguistic apparatus at your command?
A. Yes, for use in my biblical work.
Q. I think you are able to read and follow the Bible in Hebrew, Greek, Latin, Spanish, Portuguese, German, and French?
A. Yes.
Q. It is the case, is it not, that in 1950 there was prepared and issued what is called the New World Translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures?
A. Yes....
Q. I think that it was your duty, was it not, before the issue of that New World Translation by your Society to check that translation for accuracy?
A. That is true.
Q. In light of your studies and in light of your knowledge?
A. That is true.
Q. And did you do so?
A. I did so....
Q. And was it your duty on behalf of the Society to check the translation into English from the original Hebrew of that first volume of the Old Testament Scriptures?
A. Yes....
Q. In so far as translation of the Bible itself is undertaken, are you responsible for that?
A. I have been authorised to examine a translation and determine its accuracy and recommend its acceptance in the form in which it is submitted.
Q. Are the translators members of the Editorial Committee?
A. That is a question which I, as a member of the Board of Directors, am not authorised to disclose....
Q. When did you go to the University?....
Q. Did you graduate?
A. No, I did not....
Q. Had you done any Hebrew in the course of your University work?
A. No, I had not, but in the course of my editorial work, my special research work for the president of the Society, I found it was very necessary to have knowledge of Hebrew, and so I undertook a personal study of that.

ADJOURNED

Wednesday, 24th November, 1954:
Frederick William Franz, Cross Continued:

Q. You, yourself, read and speak Hebrew, do you?
A. I do not speak Hebrew.
Q. You do not?
A. No.
Q. Can you, yourself, translate that into Hebrew?
A. Which?
Q. That fourth verse of the Second Chapter of Genesis?
A. You mean here?
Q. Yes?
A. No, I won’t attempt to do that.


— Douglas Walsh Trial, Pursuer’s Proof, 1954, pp. 7-9, 88, 91-92, 102-103

What Franz "wouldn't attempt" to translate into Hebrew is what many have said as a simple exercise an average first or second-year Hebrew student in seminary would be able to do even though he testified that he had 'a substantial linguistic apparatus at his command' and that he could "read and follow the Bible in Hebrew". Franz could neither speak Hebrew nor translate the English to Hebrew.

So given that the New World Translation wasn't actually translated from the original Hebrew and Greek, the question remains as to why they put more emphasis on their own writings in the Watchtower and Awake! magazine than they do on the Bible itself?

Anonymous said...

Thank you Shawn. Any non JW observer will see that you have done the research and provide well constructed, logical answers compared with the JW apologist method of one liners and standard company rhetoric.

I actually think Voice of Reason/Ronde is playing Devils advocate here. He is really one of us, but trying to paint the JWs in a bad light by his throwaway remarks and unintelligent arguments.

He also manages to get the ex JWs to provide the sort of information you have Shawn so that outsiders can come to the correct conclusions about the JW faith.

Anonymous said...

Someone just dropped their pants and took a dump on this site.

Why aren't you all objecting to this disgusting comment about a revolting act.

Because this site serves Satan, not Jehovah. The moderator of this site has revealed his true agenda. Anything he/she has said is ....shit!

Shawn said...

Anonymous said:

Look! Contributions to the Watchtower Society are actually to Jehovah. Just one more instance of the Watchtower Society assuming divine power.

But surely that's missing the point. If God is using an organization and I give some money to help that organization, then I am, in effect, giving to Jehovah.

Obviously, if you don't believe that this is God's organization, you will disagree. But the position is logically consistent nonetheless.

That is the point Jesus never told His disciples that Jehovah would have a 'visible' or 'spirit-directed' organization on earth. this concept is an invention of the Watchtower Society in an attempt to assume divine authority over its members.

If you believed that God was using an organization on earth to do his will and that you could promote the doing of God's work by making a donation, in line with your circumstances, wouldn't you do it willingly? That is all that Jehovah's Witnesses are doing.

So even though the Watchtower Society does not 'require' donations, they are very helpful in reminding their members that their contributions should be weekly and be in proportion to how much they appreciate Jehovah.

And there is no reason why they should not make reminders. Making a donation is a "fine work" and the Bible says that we should incite one another to love and fine works.

The issue is one of hypocrisy. The Watchtower Society loves to brag about how they never 'pass the plate'...

*** w87 9/1 p. 24 par. 5 Trust in Jehovah—Not in “a Conspiracy!” ***

. At the same time, her churches pass the collection plate, enriching themselves by the contributions deposited therein.
***

*** w85 9/1 p. 22 par. 4 God’s Ministers Prove Their Qualification ***

their public speakers do not charge for lectures, and a collection plate is never passed at their meetings
***

...and then devote whole articles, not to the teachings of the Christ, but on articles such as the November 1st 2007 “The Silver Is Mine, and the Gold Is Mine” that asks readers to donate in any of a variety of ways.

How are these 'reminders' any different than passing a collection plate?


For the brothers and sisters I know this just isn't an issue. They don't feel pressured to give. If they give, they do it because they want to.

It isn't an issue for those brothers and sisters because they've been indoctrinated into the belief that the Watchtower Society has divine backing.

While there's nothing wrong with asking for donations, claiming that they are donations to Jehovah is wrong.

No it is not. Again, you're not seeing it from our point of view. If the organization doesn't belong to Jehovah, then obviously the donations are not to Jehovah. But if it really is Jehovah's organization, then it's not at all unreasonable to say that donations made to it are giving to Jehovah.

Claiming that the donations are to Jehovah is wrong because it is another instance of the Watchtower Society assuming divine authority in a pay-no-attention-to-the-man-behind-the-mask way.

Let's look at another Christian organization ( I know, I know, JWs are the only "true" Christians, but just for the sake of argument...)

Vision of Catholic Charities

Believing in the presence of God in our midst, we proclaim the sanctity of human life and the dignity of the person by sharing in the mission of Jesus given to the Church. To this end, Catholic Charities works with individuals, families and communities to help them meet their needs, address their issues, eliminate oppression, and build a just and compassionate society.


Clearly they believe they are doing God's work. Now let's look at the copy from their donation page...

Support Catholic Charities USA

Your donation to Catholic Charities USA will enable us to strengthen the national network of more than 1,700 local Catholic Charities agencies that serve more than 7.8 million people of all faiths each year.

CCUSA provides agencies with the tools they need to be successful in their mission of providing help and creating hope for people in need throughout the nation.

Catholic Charities USA is a nonprofit 501(c)(3) organization (EIN/tax ID number: 53-0196620). Your donations are fully tax-deductible to the extent allowable by law.


Do you see the total absence of any claim that a donation to them is a donation to God?


Jehovah doesn't need your money, the Watchtower Society does.

No-one every said that he does need it. He could always find a way. Making a financial donation is a privilege because it means that you are using some of your resources for a work that you fervently believe in.

If that's the case, why does the Watchtower Society claim that donations go to Jehovah? Why aren't they just honest about who the donations are really for, the Watchtower Society. It wouldn't change where the money goes would it? The real problem is the pervasive message that the Watchtower Society is the hand/voice of God. (I'll spare you the quotes, but if you challenge me I'll dump them on you) Right down to the tone they take when 'reminding' their members to donate to them, the Watchtower Society repeats the message that they have divine authority.

Jehovah doesn't even need an organization. Jesus did not set up a corporation while he was on earth.

So what? Corporations are legally recognized entities. They didn't exist in Jesus' day. He didn't say that they shouldn't set up corporations either.

Having corporations has enabled the good news to expand and be preached in all the world and to build thousands of places of worship. What is wrong with that?

Furthermore, it's hardly unusual for religious bodies to have legal corporations. I really don't see why it should be an issue.

The difference is that the Watchtower Society claims to be the only way a person can be a Christian.

*** w85 6/1 p. 30 Subjecting Ourselves to Jehovah by Dedication ***

At the close of the convention baptism talk, the baptism candidates will be
in position to answer with depth of understanding and heartfelt appreciation
two simple questions that serve to confirm that they recognize the
implications of following Christ's example. The first question is:

On the basis of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, have you repented of your
sins and dedicated yourself to Jehovah to do his will?

The second is:

Do you understand that your dedication and baptism identify you as one of
Jehovah's Witnesses in association with God's spirit-directed organization?

Having answered yes to these questions, candidates are in a right heart
condition to undergo Christian baptism.
***

*** w06 4/1 p. 24 par. 14 'Go and Make Disciples, Baptizing Them' ***

14 The second question also reminds the candidate of his responsibility to
work with Jehovah's spirit-directed organization. We are not alone in
serving God, and we need the help, support, and encouragement of "the whole
association of brothers."
***


If the baptismal candidate does not accept the Watchtower Society as God's
spirit-directed organization, he or she cannot be baptized.

*** w89 1/15 p. 13 par. 18 What Prevents You From Getting Baptized? ***

Only if the individual answers in the affirmative and also understands that
his dedication and baptism identify him as one of Jehovah's Witnesses in
association with God's spirit-directed organization can he acceptably
undergo water immersion.
***

JWs must serve Jehovah with his spirit-directed organization.
*** w97 1/15 p. 22 par. 21 What Does God Require of Us? ***

21 We are not alone in making the changes needed to bring our lives into
harmony with God's standards. Jehovah has a people on this earth, and he
expects us to serve him along with them. This brings us to the fourth
requirement. We must serve Jehovah with his spirit-directed organization.
***

*** w84 7/15 pp. 14-15 par. 19 Organized to Serve Jehovah ***

There must be agreement among all true Christians, a unified message, if
people are to hear what is correct, put genuine faith in the true God and
call upon Jehovah's name with the prospect of being saved. Moreover, one
spirit-directed organization must be used in connection with the sending
forth of those truthful preachers of the "good news."
***

*** km 4/97 p. 3 par. 5 Directing Students to the Organization Behind Our
Name ***

Every disciple maker must realize that it is his responsibility to direct
the Bible student to God's organization. (1 Tim. 4:16) Each study session
should be viewed as a stepping-stone toward the happy day when the new one
will symbolize his dedication to Jehovah by water baptism. One of the
questions that he will be asked during the baptism ceremony is: "Do you
understand that your dedication and baptism identify you as one of Jehovah's
Witnesses in association with God's spirit-directed organization?" Hence, it
is important that he realize he cannot serve God without actively
associating with the true Christian congregation.
***

This next one implies that one cannot respect Jesus without respecting the
Watchtower Society.

*** w07 4/1 p. 24 par. 12 Loyal to Christ and His Faithful Slave ***

12 A fundamental reason for showing proper respect for the faithful slave
class is that by so doing, we are in fact showing respect for the Master,
Jesus Christ. Paul wrote of the anointed ones: "He that was called when a
freeman is a slave of Christ. You were bought with a price." (1 Corinthians
7:22, 23; Ephesians 6:6) Therefore, when we loyally submit to the direction
of the faithful slave and its Governing Body, we are submitting to Christ,
the slave's Master.
***

If someone who has gone astray from the doctrines of the Watchtower Society,
that person will be destroyed unless they rejoin the organization.
*** w59 3/15 p. 170 par. 18 Keeping Strict Watch on How We Walk ***

From the youngest to the oldest of us in the truth, from the average
congregation member to the congregation servant or overseer, we all should
never trust ourselves but should maintain a strict watch always on how we
walk, that we may not fall calamitously. What a calamity it would be to be
disfellowshiped from Jehovah's congregation and suffer eternal destruction!
***

*** w65 12/15 p. 751 par. 15 "We Should Not Neglect the House of Our God"
***

Disfellowshiping means the casting of a member out of God's household; and
if one should remain in this disfellowshiped condition till he died, it
would mean his everlasting destruction as a person who is rejected by God.
Staying away from meetings leads in that very direction.
***
So if you're not in 'Jehovah's organization', you'll be destroyed.

Jesus never taught that a person has to be a part of some organization in order to benefit from His sacrifice.



The Watchtower Society has unilaterally decided to insert itself between Christians and God... and make those Christians pay for the 'privilege' of no longer having a relationship with God without their organization.

Of course you are wrong. You don't have to pay anything. But this is the crux of the matter. As long as you don't accept the premise that God has an organization on earth, then obviously the rest will not make sense to you. But just because you don't believe it it doesn't mean that we aren't allowed to. We believe that this is God's organization and we will support it every way that we can.

It's not that it 'doesn't make sense' to me. To the contrary, it makes perfect sense when you realize that the Watchtower Society runs a high-control organization that has convinced its members that to disagree with them is the same as disagreeing with Jehovah.

Of course your allowed to believe whatever you want from my point of view. I'm not the one running a cult here. However, that doesn't mean that I'm just going to sit idly by while the Watchtower Society continues to recruit honest-hearted people into their high-control organization.

Additionally, you also are 'allowed' to believe the earth is flat, but that doesn't make it true, does it?

Shawn said...

Anonymous said:

Someone just dropped their pants and took a dump on this site.

Why aren't you all objecting to this disgusting comment about a revolting act.

Because this site serves Satan, not Jehovah. The moderator of this site has revealed his true agenda. Anything he/she has said is ....shit!
=================================

If you're so opposed to profanity, why are you using it? By your own judgment, this must mean you too are a servant of Satan!

Voice of Reason said...

This is funny that everyone thinks everything is Ronde. People, call me that. I don't know why. They just can't deal with the issues so they call names.

Voice of Reason said...

Someone negative said:
"That was never stated. What was stated is that basing a donation arrangement after losing a court case with false religion in a worldly court government is not 'Waiting on Jehovah'. "

Then what is 'waiting on Jehovah', and why does that matter?

Voice of Reason said...

"If you find nothing wrong with the Watchtower Society supporting and helping false religion that is your prerogative.

However, many would see the hypocrisy and wrong behind such actions. "

Well, you are the one who did it so how are you complaining?

I believe that false religions have the same rights that the true religion has under the constitution and I will fight for those rights.

You gotta fight, for the right...

Shawn said...

Voice of Reason said:

This is funny that everyone thinks everything is Ronde. People, call me that. I don't know why. They just can't deal with the issues so they call names.
=====================================

It seems strange to me that you don't understand why people call you Ronde, but I think I can explain it in Watchtower-ese.

*** re chap. 3 pp. 16-17 pars. 5-7 Things That Must Shortly Take Place ***

6 God had a channel for communicating Revelation in John’s day, and John was the earthly part of that channel. Likewise, God has a channel for giving spiritual nourishment to his ‘slaves’ today. In his great prophecy concerning the conclusion of the system of things, Jesus identified the earthly part of this channel as “the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time.” (Matthew 24:3, 45-47) He uses this John class in unlocking the meaning of the prophecy.
***

You see how they take an inspired writer and assume that mantle for themselves? Let's apply the same principle to your situation.

***
In the early days of this blog JW apologists communicated their litany of circular logic and logical fallacies through the blogger account named Ronde. Even though Ronde has curtailed his or her comments on this blog, there exists a 'Ronde-class' today that carries out this very same work!

In like manner and similarly in a parallel for our day, this Ronde class disseminates these very same logical fallacies and fabricated doctrines in an attempt to defend the Watchtower Society's cult control policies and failed prophesy.

Blog contributors in our day understand this Ronde class to be an important backdrop for highlighting the fact that the Watchtower Society cannot possibly have divine backing and to warn honest-hearted people everywhere to the subtle techniques used to control its members lives and rob them of their Christian freedom.

How grateful we are for this loving provision of this Ronde class without which, many people may not realize how the Watchtower Society has programmed its members to be loyal to 'the organization' instead of Christ!
***

See! We don't necessarily believe you, VoR, are Ronde but instead, recognize you as part of the Ronde class that accomplishes the same valuable service that Ronde used to provide.

Shawn said...

Voice of Reason has left a new comment on the post "Contributions To The Watchtower":

Someone negative said:
"That was never stated. What was stated is that basing a donation arrangement after losing a court case with false religion in a worldly court government is not 'Waiting on Jehovah'. "

Then what is 'waiting on Jehovah', and why does that matter?
==================================

Why does it matter? Because the Watchtower Society claims to be the only 'true' religion.

*** it-1 p. 77 Alliance ***

In its closing years, the kingdom of Judah fluctuated between Egypt and Babylon, “prostituting” itself to both powers. (Eze 16:26-29; 23:14) It came under the dominance of Egypt during Jehoiakim’s reign (2Ki 23:34) but was soon made subject to Babylon. (2Ki 24:1, 7, 12-17) The last king, Zedekiah, made a futile attempt to free Judah from Babylon by a vain alliance with Egypt. Destruction of Jerusalem resulted. (2Ki 24:20; Eze 17:1-15) They had failed to accept Isaiah’s inspired advice: “By coming back and resting you people will be saved. Your mightiness will prove to be simply in keeping undisturbed and in trustfulness.”—Isa 30:15-17.
***

Why would the Watchtower Society "prostitute" itself to another false religion in an alliance? It would be a different matter if the Watchtower Society accepted Jimmy Swaggart Ministries as a legitimate Christian ministry - filing a friend of the court briefing would not have been hypocritical. As it stands, the Watchtower Society collaborated with 'false religion' to try to secure their own freedom in the same way that king Zedekiah tried to make an alliance with Egypt in order to get out from under Babylonian domination. 'Waiting on Jehovah' would have meant taking Isaiah's inspired advice : “By coming back and resting you people will be saved. Your mightiness will prove to be simply in keeping undisturbed and in trustfulness.”—Isa 30:15-17.

That's what waiting on Jehovah means and why it matters.

Voice of Reason said...

So Shawn, why aren't you waiting on Jehovah?

But then why wait?

We should be preaching the kingdom and doing our best to eliminate stuff that hinders like taxes.

Shawn said...

Voice of Reason has left a new comment on the post "Contributions To The Watchtower":

So Shawn, why aren't you waiting on Jehovah?
====================================

I believe you're wondering why I'm not 'waiting on Jehovah' in the the Watchtower Society sense...

*** w04 2/15 p. 17 par. 10 Guard Against Deception ***

10 Second, we love the organization that has taught us the precious truths that so plainly separate us from Babylon the Great. At the same time, we recognize that our knowledge of God’s purpose is not perfect; our understanding has undergone adjustments over the years. Loyal Christians are content to wait on Jehovah for all such refinements.
***

The reason is because this is an unchristian position to take.

(2 Timothy 3:14-17) 14 You, however, continue in the things that you learned and were persuaded to believe, knowing from what persons you learned them 15 and that from infancy you have known the holy writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through the faith in connection with Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.
***

Notice that Paul does not tell Timothy that all Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, that the man of God may be mostly competent due to the need for 'new light' to be discovered, moderately equipped for every good work because our knowledge of God’s purpose is not perfect; our understanding has undergone adjustments over the years.

No, Paul was confident that the Scriptures were complete and the teachings of Christ were accessible to all Christians.

John wrote...

(1 John 4:1) 4 Beloved ones, do not believe every inspired expression, but test the inspired expressions to see whether they originate with God, because many false prophets have gone forth into the world.

He did not tell fellow Christians to let someone else wait for 'new light' to trickle from heaven and then hand it to them in a Watchtower magazine. Each and every individual Christian is responsible for testing every inspired expression because there would be many false prophets.

Why does the Watchtower Society tell its members to 'wait on Jehovah' in this sense? Its because they are, in fact, one of those false prophets and they need to borrow time every now and then to get their story straight. They don't want JWs to look into the Scriptures without their 'bible-based publications'

*** km 9/07 p. 3 Question Box ***

Does “the faithful and discreet slave” endorse independent groups of Witnesses who meet together to engage in Scriptural research or debate?—Matt. 24:45, 47.

No, it does not. ...

For those who wish to do extra Bible study and research, we recommend that they explore Insight on the Scriptures, “All Scripture Is Inspired of God and Beneficial,” and our other publications, such as those that discuss the prophecies found in the Bible books of Daniel, Isaiah, and Revelation. These provide abundant material for Bible study and meditation, whereby we can be “filled with the accurate knowledge of [God’s] will in all wisdom and spiritual comprehension, in order to walk worthily of Jehovah to the end of fully pleasing him as [we] go on bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the accurate knowledge of God.”—Col. 1:9, 10.
***

Really, this is just another example of the Watchtower Society assuming divine authority. They don't really mean 'wait on Jehovah', they mean 'wait for us to come up with an explanation'. Jehovah has already provided His communication to humans and it is not shifting and changing, it's constant. It's the Watchtower Society that is doing the shifting because it's no easy task to bend the scriptures to support their cult control tactics.

Voice of Reason said...

Shawn said:
"I believe you're wondering why I'm not 'waiting on Jehovah' in the the Watchtower Society sense..."

I didn't say anything about your god, the WTS.

Anonymous said...

It still cracks me up when Ronde implies the Watchtower Society has nothing to do with Jehovah's Witnesses.

Anonymous said...

Ronde,

I have some Contributions for you to place into your Kingdom Hall, assembly or the next convention contribution boxes:

Watchtower Contributions

Anonymous said...

A post reads: "It still cracks me up when Ronde implies the Watchtower Society has nothing to do with Jehovah's Witnesses."

Well, you see Ronde is in quite the predicament. Shawn (and many others) have provided indisbutable evidence proving the errors of JW's to Ronde on several subjects. The only way that Ronde can disbute direct quotes from JW's literature is to say, JW's have nothing to do with the WTS, the Governing Body, nor the Faithful and Discreet Slave.

Of course, this virtually makes Ronde NOT a JW, but it's the only way that Ronde can deal with the errors found in his religion - that is, to distance himself from anything printed or taught by JW's. You probably noticed that he rarely (if ever) quotes from the literature, because that would make him a hypocrite.

I know, it's all very strange, but then again Ronde is one strange JW, if he is one at all.

Voice of Reason said...

"It still cracks me up when Ronde implies the Watchtower Society has nothing to do with Jehovah's Witnesses. "

Yeah me too.

Which is why I wonder why people say that I am Ronde, because I don't believe that.

I believe that what the WTS and the people who work there do, does not reflect on Jehovah's Witnesses as a whole.

However, the governing body serves as the shepherds of the congregation. They are not the WTS but they work there and live there. They are members of the Watchtower Society but they are not directors of it.

Voice of Reason said...

I got this email below. It seems that the UN is going to pay me some big money. Does that make me put of the wild beast?
----------------------

WORLD BANK GROUP AND UNITED NATION ORGANIZATION
OFFICIAL CONTRACT PAYMENT UNIT.
Our Ref: FGN /SNT/STB
RELEASE CODE No: 0763


PART-PAYMENT VALUED $8.3M UNITED STATES DOLLARS

ATTN,Beneficiary,

Our Ref: UNO /SNT/STB
Your Ref:

WORLD BANK GROUP AND UNITED NATION ORGANIZATION do hereby give this irrevocable
approval order with Release Code:GNC/3480/02/00 in your favor for your contract
entitlement/award winning payment with the UNITED NATION to your nominated bank
account. Now you’re new Payment,United nation Approval No;UN5685P,White House
Approved No:WH44CV, Reference No.-35460021,Allocation No: 674632 Password No:
339331 , Pin Code No: 55674 and your Certificate of Merit Payment No : 103 ,
Released Code No: 0763; Immediate Citibank Telex confirmation No: -1114433 ;
Secret Code No:XXTN013, Having received these vital payment number , therefore
You are qualified now to received and confirm Your payment with the United
Nation immediately within the next 72hrs.

As a matter of fact, you are required to Deal and Communicate only with MR
ANDREW WOLLEY, DIRECTOR INTERNATIONAL REMMITTANCE CITIBANK OF UNITED KINGDOM,
with the help and monitory team from the CITIBANK OF NEW YORK which is our
official remitting bank, Committee On Foreign Payment Matters in United Nation,
has look up to make sure you receive your fund valued $8.3m. So contact: MR
ANDREW WOLLEY on his contact information.

Direct Cell/mobile ,+44-703-5945078
Fax Number:+44 870 288 7323, Email:director.andrewwolley01@googlemail.com for
immediate release of yourcontract/inheritance/Award Winning claim Be informed
that you are not allowed tocorrespond with any person or office anymore, You are
required to send bellowinformation for your transfer.

1) YOUR FULL NAME:
2) ADDRESS,CITY,STATE AND COUNTRY:
3) PHONE,FAX AND MOBILE:
4) COMPANY NAME(IF ANY) POSITION AND ADDRESS:

5) BANK ACCOUNT NO:
BANK NAME :
ROUTING NO:
SWIFT CODE:
BANK ADDRESS:

6) PROFESSION,AGE AND MARITAL STATUS:
7) COPY OF YOUR INT'L PASSPORT/DRIVERS LICENSE:

NOTE:
YOUR PERSONAL CONTACT/COMMUNICATIONCODE WITH CITIBANK IS(511),YOU ARE ADVICE TO
SEND YOUR FULL BANKING INFORMATION TO THE CITIBANK OF LONDON INTERNATIONAL
REMMITTANCE DIRECTOR HEADED BY MR ANDREW WOLLEY AND MAKE SURE YOU SPEAK WITH
HIM, WITH YOUR NEW PAYMENT CODE FOR RELEASE OF YOUR PAYMENT AND SEND HIM ALL
YOUR BANKING INFORMATION NOW. CONTACT CODE(511).

OFFICER:MR ANDREW WOLLEY.
POSITION:DIRECTOR,INTL,REMMITTANCE CITIBANK LONDON.
FAX NUMBER:+44 870 288 7323,+44 870 288 7101
Cell/mobile ,+44-703-5945078
EMAIL:director.andrewwolley@googlemail.com
SIR FRANK PETERSON.
(CHAIRMAN COMMITTE ON FOREIGN CONTRACT/AWARD WINING PAYMENT UNITED NATION AND USA GOVERNMENT).

Voice of Reason said...

"Shawn (and many others) have provided indisbutable evidence proving the errors of JW's"

I am a JW.

What errors have I made?

Forget the Watchtower, what about me?

Shawn said...

Voice of Reason said:

However, the governing body serves as the shepherds of the congregation. They are not the WTS but they work there and live there. They are members of the Watchtower Society but they are not directors of it.
===================================

This sounds like an explanation of the trinity! The GB is separate from the WTS but of the same nature.

Shawn said...

Voice of Reason has left a new comment on the post "Contributions To The Watchtower":

"Shawn (and many others) have provided indisbutable evidence proving the errors of JW's"

I am a JW.

What errors have I made?

Forget the Watchtower, what about me?
===================================


No one cares about you. You're not even an actual JW or else you wouldn't spend all of your time on 'apostate' blogs trying to mislead people about the cult control techniques and failed prophesy of the Watchtower Society.

Shawn said...

Voice of Reason said:

I got this email below. It seems that the UN is going to pay me some big money. Does that make me put of the wild beast?
====================================

First of all, there is no "wild beast" in our day, that is a Watchtower Society fabrication. Secondly, it doesn't surprise me that you believe that a Ugandan/Nigerian scammer is the UN since you still believe the Watchtower Society is the only true religion after learning the truth about their failed prophesy and cult control techniques.

Voice of Reason said...

Shawn,

Do you work at the Watchtower Society?

If not, why not?

Voice of Reason said...

Shawn,

Everyone cares about me.

No one cares about the Watchtower.

Voice of Reason said...

"There is no "wild beast" in our day, that is a Watchtower Society fabrication"

Revelation says that there is a wild beast. You don't believe in the book of Revelation.

"since you still believe the Watchtower Society is the only true religion after learning the truth about their failed prophesy and cult control techniques. "

I don't believe that the Watchtower Society is the only true religion. I believe that the watchtower Society is a printing company used by the only true religion.

And I do not believe that failed prophesies disqualify one from the true religion.

Anonymous said...

Ronde really backed himself into a corner here: "I do not believe that failed prophesies disqualify one from the true religion."

In addition to admitting his religion has prophesied falsely, his religion is thus subject to destruction because the false prophesies prove it is a false religion.

www.jwfacts.com

Shawn said...

Voice of Reason has left a new comment on the post "Contributions To The Watchtower":

"There is no "wild beast" in our day, that is a Watchtower Society fabrication"

Revelation says that there is a wild beast. You don't believe in the book of Revelation.

Revelation wasn't written for 'our day' kiddo. It was written to encourage and admonish the seven congregations undergoing Roman persecution. Wake up! The Watchtower Society continually tries to make it seem like the Bible points to our day as 'the time of the end' to get its members to push its publications.

"since you still believe the Watchtower Society is the only true religion after learning the truth about their failed prophesy and cult control techniques. "

I don't believe that the Watchtower Society is the only true religion. I believe that the watchtower Society is a printing company used by the only true religion.

The Watchtower Society sets all of the policies and procedures of your religion. Jehovah doesn't disfellowship people, the Watchtower Society does. The term 'only true religion' is a cult control technique used by the Watchtower Society to keep its members obedient. By claiming they have the 'only true religion', they assume divine authority so that disagreeing with the Watchtower Society is the same as disagreeing with God.

And I do not believe that failed prophesies disqualify one from the true religion.

You may choose to ignore all of the failed prophesies that the Watchtower Society has made, but people who read the Bible can see that those who make false prophesies do not have Jehovah's backing.

Deut 18:21,22
21 And in case you should say in your heart: “How shall we know the word that Jehovah has not spoken?” 22 when the prophet speaks in the name of Jehovah and the word does not occur or come true, that is the word that Jehovah did not speak. With presumptuousness the prophet spoke it. You must not get frightened at him.’

So if a prophesy does not come true, then the one saying it does not have God's backing.


Matt 24:23-26
23 “Then if anyone says to YOU, ‘Look! Here is the Christ,’ or, ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24 For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will give great signs and wonders so as to mislead, if possible, even the chosen ones. 25 Look! I have forewarned YOU. 26 Therefore, if people say to YOU, ‘Look! He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out; ‘Look! He is in the inner chambers,’ do not believe it.

The Watchtower Society claims that Jesus returned invisibly in 1914. According to the scripture in Matthew above, that makes the Watchtower Society a false prophet that Christians should avoid.

Shea Kang said...

Don't stop when you are tired.STOP when you are DONE ;). I really had a great time reading your article, please read my article also imarksweb.net
imarksweb.net . GBY :*