Sunday, June 14, 2009

Did the Watchtower Really Predict 1975 as the End Of The World?

What the Watchtower does not want you to know about 1975:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oaXbBVVoeEQ

122 comments:

Voice of Reason said...

No, it did not.

And so what if it did.

Rather than looking at a doctored youtube video, look at what JWs taught and heard in context.

Jehovah's Witness are not about the Watchtower publications anyway.

Voice of Reason said...

No, it did not.

And so what if it did.

Rather than looking at a doctored youtube video, look at what JWs taught and heard in context.

Jehovah's Witness are not about the Watchtower publications anyway.

Yeah I said it said...

jws are all about watchtower publications. have you ever been in a committee meeting? all decisions made are by publications published by the watchtower society.

doctored youtube video? check the facts.

the doctoring is the out of context quotes from the publishing company known as the watchtower society who is lead by the faithful and discreet slave who give "food" to all jws.

voice of reason, just go play ignorance w/ your congregation...aren't they keeping you active enough in the work? or are you counting this as service time and return visits? LOL.

Shawn said...

Hehe... Voice of Reason... How Will You Survive The End Of This World? It's true, the end of this system of things didn't happen in 1975 as the Watchtower Society implied... but it's not far off, right? I mean the Watchtower Society has been telling it's followers for over 120 years that the end is right around the corner... no more than a few more months or years away... just how big is this corner, friend?

Even if JWs are not about the publications... why would they continually endorse the concept that the end of the world is right around the corner by handing those very publications to people at the doors if they didn't believe what was written in them?

The 'truth' is VoR... you're not going to see the end of this system of things any more then C.T.Russell saw it... because it's a pipe dream... a fabrication of a deluded haberdasher come spokesman of God.

You will face the same fate we all face... a death, natural or otherwise, on this very planet. You will not live through some Armageddon... you will not pet friendly lions and pandas. The only difference between you and us is that we are actually enjoying the life that we have instead of dreaming about a life that you'll never see.

Please, do your 'god given job' and tell me how I'm wrong! Keep in mind that I have, well, over 120 years of the Watchtower Society's publications. Just try and tell us that your leaders haven't been telling you that 'the end is near' for over a century and I'll show you copies of the Watchtower that do.

Silly man... at this point I know that you know that I'm right. Your pridefulness is keeping you from the real life. Your loyalty to men who claim to be the mouthpiece of God has kept you from living the real life that you have. It's bad enough that you're living a lie, please don't try to make other innocent people live a lie too, just to make yourself feel better.

Voice of Reason said...

So Shawn, you don't believe in the Kingdom of God.

Jesus believed in it and taught it.
I believe him and not you. Thus you are wrong because you teach differently than the master teaches.

Again, I say that the Watchtower is irrelevant in this respect. Jesus taught that the kingdom is to come.
I believe him and trust him, not you.

Shawn said...

First of all, I notice you have nothing to say about the Watchtower Society's failed predictions for the timing of Armageddon. The fact is, neither of us can deny the fact that the Watchtower Society has led people to believe that the end of this system would occur in a particular year, usually autumn for some reason, many times. I accept your acknowledgment by omission.

I'm glad to hear you say that the Watchtower Society's publications are irrelevant. Surely you know that in Matthew 24:36 it says: “Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father."

The real question is... Why would someone who believes the words of Jesus, as you say you do, align themselves with an organization that has repeatedly claimed to know when God will bring an end to this system of things in spite of the fact that Jesus Himself warned that no one knows the day or the hour? Is this fact alone not enough to reject such a disingenuous group of religious leaders?

I never asked you to trust in me, I simply stated the facts. There is no evidence in scripture or otherwise to indicate that the end is near. Additionally, given the Watchtower Society's abysmal failure rate at predicting 'the end', how can you still believe anything they print??

Have you ever considered what Jesus meant when He said the kingdom was to come? Do you really believe, as the Watchtower Society teaches, that the realization of kingdom of God means that you'll be able to pet friendly lions here on earth? Is that what the kingdom of God means to you? Well behaved animals? Please... enlighten us on the reality of God's kingdom vis-a-vis the Watchtower Society and this paradise earth full of friendly wild animals!

Every day there are about 358,192 new people born. That's about a third of a million people a day who have not heard one of Jehovah's Witnesses tell them about friendly lions. Is Jehovah going to deprive these otherwise innocent people a chance to pet those lions because you and a few million other JWs really want to be in an earthly paradise really soon? Would that be perfect justice? No, of course not! The truth is that the end of this system as taught by Jehovah's Witnesses, could not be anywhere near our time without the wholesale slaughter of countless millions of innocent lives. Is that the god you worship VoR? If so, I feel deeply sad for you since your god has no concept of compassion.

The truth is, what Jehovah's Witnesses teach is not in line with the scriptures. VoR, you are confusing what Jesus taught about the kingdom of God with what the Watchtower Society has taught you about the kingdom of God.

John 18:33 So Pilate entered into the governor’s palace again and called Jesus and said to him: “Are you the king of the Jews?” 34 Jesus answered: “Is it of your own originality that you say this, or did others tell you about me?” 35 Pilate answered: “I am not a Jew, am I? Your own nation and the chief priests delivered you up to me. What did you do?” 36 Jesus answered: “My kingdom is no part of this world. If my kingdom were part of this world, my attendants would have fought that I should not be delivered up to the Jews. But, as it is, my kingdom is not from this source.”

I guess Jesus' kingdom isn't here on earth with a bunch of friendly lions like the Watchtower Society teaches. Hmmm

Voice of Reason said...

"First of all, I notice you have nothing to say about the Watchtower Society's failed predictions for the timing of Armageddon."

Because I don't work there and did not write such material. If you have a problem with what they wrote, talk to them, not me.

Jehovah's Witnesses believe in the Bible. Such belief means that we believe that the kingdom is a reality. Again, not relevant to the Watchtower society as those prophecies were given centuries prior.

If you have a problem with the prophesies of Jesus, Daniel and others, talk to God about that but don't blame us.

JWs believe in those prophesies, because you don't, don't put down our faith.

Shawn said...

VoR, you may not work at Bethel, but you are certainly following them if you are, in fact, one of Jehovah's Witnesses.

*** w98 3/15 p. 18 par. 3 Living Up to Christian Dedication in Freedom ***

3 Someone may argue that the way the Witnesses speak about the Watch Tower Society—or more often just “the Society”—indicates that they view it as more than a legal instrument. Do they not consider it to be the final authority on matters of worship? The book Jehovah’s Witnesses—Proclaimers of God’s Kingdom clarifies this point by explaining: “When The Watchtower [June 1, 1938] referred to ‘The Society,’ this meant, not a mere legal instrumentality, but the body of anointed Christians that had formed that legal entity and used it.”

The reason why previous failed predictions for the end of this system of things are important is because this 'faithful and discreet slave' claims to be directed by Jesus Himself.

*** w07 4/1 p. 28 par. 11 Humbly Submitting to Loving Shepherds ***

11 Today, Jesus directs us by means of “the faithful and discreet slave,” represented by its Governing Body and the appointed elders


What's more is that this group of men actually claim to be holy.

*** w07 4/1 p. 24 pars. 12-13 Loyal to Christ and His Faithful Slave ***

Therefore, when we loyally submit to the direction of the faithful slave and its Governing Body, we are submitting to Christ, the slave’s Master. Our showing due respect for the instrument Christ is using to manage his earthly belongings is one way in which we “openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.”—Philippians 2:11.

13 Another Scriptural reason for showing respect for the faithful slave is that anointed Christians on earth are figuratively spoken of as a “temple” that Jehovah inhabits “by spirit.” As such, they are “holy.” (1 Corinthians 3:16, 17; Ephesians 2:19-22) It is to this holy temple class that Jesus has entrusted his earthly belongings, which means that certain rights and responsibilities within the Christian congregation belong exclusively to this collective slave. For this reason, all in the congregation view it as their sacred duty to follow and uphold the direction coming from the faithful slave and its Governing Body.


The problem is that this collective 'slave', who claims to be directed by Jesus Himself has been wrong about when the end of this system would occur so many times that no reasonable person could reconcile the their claim of being the divine channel of God with their incredible failure rate. These men insist that Jehovah's Witnesses follow their direction the way that a Christian would take direction directly from Christ, but they refuse to be accountable for their steady stream of misinformation.

Additionally, Jehovah's Witnesses do not believe in the Bible alone, but the Watchtower Society's interpretation of the scriptures. In fact, the primary Bible that Jehovah's Witnesses use, New World Translation, is a paraphrased version of the Bible that specifically supports the Watchtower Society's doctrine.

The core prophesy that Jehovah's Witnesses use to justify their claim that we are living in 'the time of the end' is the prophesy of the gentile times. It turns out that the Watchtower Society has fudged the numbers in order to arrive at the year 1914 C.E.

The other important thing to note is that this prophesy was fulfilled in 517 B.C.E. There is absolutely no grounds for the claim that this prophesy has a 'second fulfillment' that just happens to point to our day.

Shawn said...

Another prophesy that Jehovah's Witnesses claim points to our day is found in Jesus' words in Matthew 24:7, 8:


For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another. 8 All these things are a beginning of pangs of distress.

At first it might seem reasonable to pay attention to things like earthquakes if you're looking for signs of the end of this system. However, when read in context the time frame of this prophesy becomes clear. The beginning of chapter 24 of Matthew makes it very clear what Jesus is talking about.

(Matthew 24:1-3)

24 Departing now, Jesus was on his way from the temple, but his disciples approached to show him the buildings of the temple. 2 In response he said to them: “Do YOU not behold all these things? Truly I say to YOU, By no means will a stone be left here upon a stone and not be thrown down.” 3 While he was sitting upon the Mount of Olives, the disciples approached him privately, saying: “Tell us, When will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?”


Jesus' disciples wanted to know when the temple would be destroyed. His disciples were not wondering what would happen in the 21st century, they wanted to know about something that would happen in their lifetime. The 'conclusion of the system of things' that they were talking about was not the end of all human governments as the Watchtower Society claims, but the conclusion of the Jewish religious system as far as Christians are concerned.

Ironically, I found an article in the Watchtower that explains my position.

*** w07 4/1 pp. 8-11 Faith in Bible Prophecy Preserves Life ***

Faith in Bible Prophecy Preserves Life

JESUS is leaving the temple in Jerusalem for the last time when one of his disciples exclaims: “Teacher, see! what sort of stones and what sort of buildings!” The temple is the pride and glory of the Jewish nation. However, Jesus replies: “Do you behold these great buildings? By no means will a stone be left here upon a stone and not be thrown down.”—Mark 13:1, 2.

The very idea is incredible! Some temple stones are huge. Furthermore, what Jesus says about the temple implies the destruction of Jerusalem and perhaps even of the Jewish state, of which the temple is the spiritual heart. So Jesus’ disciples press him: “Tell us, When will these things be, and what will be the sign when all these things are destined to come to a conclusion?”—Mark 13:3, 4.

“The end is not yet,” Jesus cautions. First, the disciples will hear of wars, earthquakes, famines, and pestilences in one place after another. Then, dramatic events will plunge the Jewish nation into a cataclysm of unique proportions, yes, a “great tribulation.” God, though, will intervene to save “the chosen ones,” that is, faithful Christians. How?—Mark 13:7; Matthew 24:7, 21, 22; Luke 21:10, 11.

In Defiance of Rome

Twenty-eight years pass, and the Christians in Jerusalem are still awaiting the end. The Roman Empire is racked by wars, earthquakes, famines, and pestilences. (See the box on page 9.) Judea is a hotbed of civil and ethnic strife. Yet, within the safety of Jerusalem’s walls, relative peace prevails. People eat, work, marry, and bear children, as they have always done. The temple’s immense physical presence projects a sense of stability and permanence over the city.


continued...

Shawn said...

About 61 C.E., the Christians in Jerusalem receive a letter from the apostle Paul. He commends them for their endurance but is concerned that some in the congregation appear to lack a sense of urgency. A number are drifting spiritually or are falling short of Christian maturity. (Hebrews 2:1; 5:11, 12) Paul urges them: “Do not, therefore, throw away your freeness of speech . . . For yet ‘a very little while,’ and ‘he who is coming will arrive and will not delay.’ ‘But my righteous one will live by reason of faith,’ and, ‘if he shrinks back, my soul has no pleasure in him.’” (Hebrews 10:35-38) Timely counsel indeed! But will the Christians exercise faith and remain alert to the fulfillment of Jesus’ prophecy? Is Jerusalem’s end really imminent?

Over the next five years, conditions in Jerusalem steadily deteriorate. Finally, in 66 C.E., the corrupt Roman Governor Florus seizes 17 talents in “tax arrears” from the sacred temple treasury. The Jews are incensed and rise up in revolt. Jewish rebels, or Zealots, swarm into Jerusalem and slaughter the Roman forces there. They then boldly declare Judea to be independent of Rome. Judea and Rome are now at war!

Within three months, the Roman governor of Syria, Cestius Gallus, marches south with 30,000 troops to suppress the Jewish rebellion. His army arrives at Jerusalem during the Festival of Booths and quickly penetrates the suburbs. The outnumbered Zealots seek refuge inside the temple fortress. Roman soldiers soon begin to undermine the temple wall. The Jews are horrified. Why, pagan soldiers are now defiling Judaism’s holiest site! The Christians in the city, though, recall Jesus’ words: ‘When you catch sight of the disgusting thing standing in a holy place, then let those in Judea begin fleeing to the mountains.’ (Matthew 24:15, 16) Would they show faith in Jesus’ prophetic words and be moved to act accordingly? As matters turn out, their life depends on their doing so. But how?

Suddenly and for no apparent reason, Cestius Gallus withdraws his troops and retreats toward the coast with the Zealots in hot pursuit. Amazingly, the tribulation on the city has been cut short! Demonstrating their faith in Jesus’ prophetic warning, the Christians flee from Jerusalem to Pella, a neutral city located in the mountains across the Jordan River. Their escape is timely. The Zealots soon return to Jerusalem and force the remaining inhabitants to join in their rebellion. Meanwhile, safe at Pella, the Christians await further developments.

Descent Into Anarchy

Within months, a new Roman army is on the move. During 67 C.E., General Vespasian and his son Titus mobilize a vast force of 60,000 troops. For the next two years, this military juggernaut advances toward Jerusalem, crushing all resistance in its path. Meanwhile, inside Jerusalem, rival Jewish factions engage in vicious struggles. The city grain reserves are destroyed, the area surrounding the temple is leveled, and more than 20,000 Jews are killed. Vespasian delays his advance toward Jerusalem, declaring: ‘God acts as a Roman general better than I can do; our enemies are destroying one another with their own hands.’

When Roman Emperor Nero dies, Vespasian departs for Rome to secure the throne, leaving Titus to finish the Judean campaign. Titus advances on Jerusalem near Passover 70 C.E., trapping the residents and pilgrims inside the city. His forces strip the Judean countryside of trees to build a 4.5-mile-long [7 km] wall of pointed stakes around the beleaguered capital. This is just as Jesus foretold: “Your enemies will build around you a fortification with pointed stakes and will encircle you and distress you from every side.”—Luke 19:43.


continued...

Shawn said...

Famine soon grips the city. Armed mobs plunder the homes of the dead and the dying. At least one desperate woman kills and eats her infant child, fulfilling the prediction: “You will have to eat the fruit of your belly, the flesh of your sons and your daughters . . . because of the tightness and stress with which your enemy will hem you in.”—Deuteronomy 28:53-57.

Finally, after a siege lasting five months, Jerusalem falls. The city and its grand temple are plundered and burned and then torn apart stone by stone. (Daniel 9:26) The dead total some 1,100,000; another 97,000 are sold into slavery. (Deuteronomy 28:68) Judea is virtually emptied of Jews. Truly, it is a national disaster without parallel, a watershed in Jewish political, religious, and cultural life.

Meanwhile, the Christians in Pella give heartfelt thanks to God for their deliverance. Their faith in Bible prophecy has preserved their very lives!

Looking back on those events, each of us today would do well to ask: ‘Do I have the faith that will preserve my life during the approaching great tribulation? Am I “the sort that [has] faith to the preserving alive of the soul”?’—Hebrews 10:39; Revelation 7:14.

[Footnotes]

Jewish historian Josephus reports that the Zealots pursued the Romans for seven days before returning to Jerusalem.

According to one estimate, over one seventh of all the Jews in the Roman Empire were killed.

Jewish Bible scholar Alfred Edersheim wrote: “[This] tribulation to Israel [was] unparalleled in the terrible past of its history, and unequalled even in its bloody future.”

[Chart on page 9]

Aspects of the Sign Fulfilled in the First Century

WARS:

Gaul (39-40 C.E.)

North Africa (41 C.E.)

Britain (43, 60 C.E.)

Armenia (58-62 C.E.)

Civil and ethnic conflicts in Judea (50-66 C.E.)

EARTHQUAKES:

Rome (54 C.E.)

Pompeii (62 C.E.)

Asia Minor (53, 62 C.E.)

Crete (62 C.E.)

FAMINES:

Rome, Greece, Egypt (c. 42 C.E.)

Judea (c. 46 C.E.)

PESTILENCES:

Babylonia (40 C.E.)

Rome (60, 65 C.E.)

FALSE PROPHETS:

Judea (c. 56 C.E.)



Of course, after accurately describing how Jesus' words in Matthew 24 were fulfilled in the first century, the Watchtower Society then links them to the 'great tribulation'. In any event, it is clear that Jesus was talking about the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem in 70 C. E. and not the Watchtower Society's soon-to-happen Armageddon.

So VoR, there are no prophesies in the actual Bible that point to our day as the last days of this system of things, only the dispensationalist musings of C.T. Russell mark our day as significant in the stream of history... and as history has shown, he was incredibly wrong about when the end would come.

Joepublisher1 said...

Shawn... VOR is no match for you. VOR makes no sense, but you do. I have never heard a JW's say that their publications are irrelevant, as VOR did.

VOR is a rogue JW's who "thinks" he has the answers to EVERY valid point brought up against JW's religion.

This religion is in serious trouble. If it goes under, what will Ronde (oops VOR) say then? Unfortunately, the religion has an appealing message (albeit not based on the Bible) and that appeals to people who have no real knowledge of what the Bible really says.

The strongest point that you make Shawn to VOR is one that I would like to second.

Please VOR, don't mislead anyone into thinking JW's have the TRUTH - they don't. The proof of this is ALL THEIR ERRORS - documented in their publications (that you, VOR, just hate to have quoted I have noticed). And, if you buy into the NEW LIGHT reasoning, that means they (JW'S) really can't call their religion "THE TRUTH" - think about that for a moment.

Real truth doesn't contain anything false, even if it's unintentional. Claiming to have the TRUTH and then not possessing the TRUTH is a lie and a scam. Any who propagate this, share in the lie. (btw: It could explain why VOR has no problem with the many lies he has filled this blog up with over the months.)

Joepublisher1 said...

One last thing VOR; to attempt to defend that JW's didn't predict the end in 1975 is the biggest lie I have heard yet from you.

I know so many JW's who were around back then and the leaders certainly did indicate that 1975 was a strong probability, not just a possibility.

So, once again VOR, I must thank you for proving to all readers that you have an agenda that is to attack anything that goes against your religion - right or wrong.

Your pride gets in the way of REAL TRUTH, although I don't think most JW's (like yourself) really understand what REAL TRUTH is.

If you or anyone has the time, I strongly urge you to look up on the Internet the term GROUPTHINK. As you ready about this, think about JW's and VOR. It may help you to see why so many JW's can't see the REAL TRUTH even when you put it right in front of their face.

Voice of Reason said...

Joe pub,

Shawn does not make sense.

He does not believe in the Bible or in Jesus.

Nuff said.

JWs believe in both the Bible and in Jesus.

Nuff said.

And there were no predictions about 1975. There is no evidence other than your cut and pasting from Watchtowers and Awakes which were written by a few, not all JWs.

Joepublisher1 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Joepublisher1 said...

OH VOR (alias Ronde). You will never convince me. I've been there, done that, sort of speak.

I know that you are not a traditional JW's and you are on some sort of self-appointed mission to distort everything critical of JW's.

I do feel sorry for you though as you are severely disillusioned; one day, you will become disillusioned, but for a different reason. As you consider to read and meditate on the GB's mistakes, you will realize that they are NOT GOD'S ONLY CHANNEL ON EARTH.

I know it hurts for you to contemplate that - but continue to read and in a non-defensive manner. You'll eventually see the truth that so many former JW's have come to realize. And, the internet has helped so many of us former JW's.

And, thanks again for helping to prove to all reasoning readers that you are so mistaken by attempting to lie about 1975 - in the 1980's, the leaders even mentioned in a Watchtower study article that they indicated that they taught the end coming in 1975was a probability, not a possibility. So, they admitted it! How dare you try to indicate that the leaders never taught that to its adherents! You are a liar VOR!

And, what's more interesting, is that you have lied before an entire internet audience. You say you know the Bible and believe in it. Well, it says in Proverbs that God hates liars. Why do you place yourself on the opposite side of God?

Joepublisher1 said...

Thanks again Shawn for helping the Internet readers see what a fool VOR is. I do believe that his responses actually help people to see that JW's DO NOT HAVE A LOCK ON THE TRUTH. So, thanks also to VOR.

Shawn said...

VoR wrote: "There is no evidence other than your cut and pasting from Watchtowers and Awakes which were written by a few, not all JWs."

So you assert that because 'not all JWs' write the articles in the Watchtower that it means that the contents of those articles are not what Jehovah's Witnesses teach? What an absurd line of reasoning! Were you and every other member of Jehovah's Witnesses personally involved in writing every book of the Bible, VoR? If not, by your assertion the pages of the Bible are irrelevant!

No, Jehovah's Witnesses teach that only the 'faithful and discreet slave' can explain the Bible, which doesn't include you or the vast majority of Jehovah's Witnesses.

*** w94 10/1 p. 8 The Bible—A Book Meant to Be Understood ***

All who want to understand the Bible should appreciate that the “greatly diversified wisdom of God” can become known only through Jehovah’s channel of communication, the faithful and discreet slave.

Who is this 'faithful and discreet slave' according to the teachings of Jehovah's Witnesses?

*** w07 4/1 p. 28 par. 11 Humbly Submitting to Loving Shepherds ***

Today, Jesus directs us by means of “the faithful and discreet slave,” represented by its Governing Body and the appointed elders.

So when this group of men publish the following statements...

*** w68 8/15 pp. 500-501 par. 35 Why Are You Looking Forward to 1975? ***

35 One thing is absolutely certain, Bible chronology reinforced with fulfilled Bible prophecy shows that six thousand years of man’s existence will soon be up, yes, within this generation! (Matt. 24:34) This is, therefore, no time to be indifferent and complacent. This is not the time to be toying with the words of Jesus that “concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father.” (Matt. 24:36) To the contrary, it is a time when one should be keenly aware that the end of this system of things is rapidly coming to its violent end. Make no mistake, it is sufficient that the Father himself knows both the “day and hour”!

*** w66 10/15 p. 631 Rejoicing over “God’s Sons of Liberty” Spiritual Feast ***

When we were approaching the end of the Gentile Times in 1914, there was no sign that the Gentile Times were going to end. Conditions on earth gave us no hint of what was to come, even as late as June of that year. Then suddenly there was a murder. World War I broke out. You know the rest. Famines, earthquakes and pestilences followed, as Jesus foretold would happen.

‘But what do we have today as we approach 1975? Conditions have not been peaceful. We’ve been having world wars, famines, earthquakes, pestilences and we have these conditions still as we approach 1975. Do these things mean something? These things mean that we’re in the “time of the end.” And the end has to come sometime. Jesus said: “As these things start to occur, raise yourselves erect and lift your heads up, because your deliverance is getting near.” (Luke 21:28) So we know that as we come to 1975 our deliverance is that much nearer.’


*** w67 7/15 pp. 446-447 The Removal of Mankind’s Chief Disturber ***

According to the Bible timetable, man’s history on earth has been nearly 6,000 years. Adam was created in 4026 B.C.E., which means that six thousand years of human history end about the fall of 1975 C.E. We are in the great 7,000-year rest day of God, starting at the time he rested after the creation of Adam and Eve. There are, therefore, a thousand years left to run. Without Satan and his demons to disturb mankind it will indeed be a restful time. It will be like a sabbath. In a way it will be a sabbath within a sabbath. The last thousand years of God’s great seven-thousand-year rest is a special sabbath over which the Son of man will be Lord.—Matt. 12:8.

...in the Watchtower, Jehovah's Witnesses understand it to be published under the direction of Jehovah and Jesus.

continued...

Shawn said...

This is the whole point. If the Watchtower Society didn't claim to be God's channel of communication and told everyone that the end would come in 1975, it wouldn't be such a big deal. The reality is that they do claim to be God's spokesman.

What was the real motivation behind the marking of 1975 as the year that this system would end?

*** w66 11/15 pp. 702-703 Questions from Readers ***

When you are single you are free to move about and take up assignments in the service of God that married persons often cannot. There are marvelous blessings for those who take up the full-time ministry as Jehovah’s witnesses. You might serve at one of the Watch Tower Society’s Bethel homes or as a special pioneer or in the missionary work, possibly as a circuit servant, visiting and serving congregations. The years remaining before the end of this system of things are very few; the privileges now open will never be repeated; this is the time to take advantage of them.

*** w68 4/15 p. 232 God Has an Organization ***

Yes, Jehovah’s witnesses in their congregations around the world fit the description in the Bible of the organization on earth that would be representing God and Christ in these critical “last days.” (2 Tim. 3:1) But are you one of them? You can be, but the opportunity is now greatly reduced, for the time is short. It is urgent for you to act so that you may be aligned with the people who are serving the interests of God’s kingdom today, because soon God’s judgment is to be executed upon the wicked and all impostors who profess to be God’s servants. (2 Tim. 3:13) Delaying to act will prove to be fatal.

*** w68 12/1 p. 715 Putting First the Preaching of the Good News ***

How much more so should Jesus’ true followers be working extra hard, since they too know that the time left for preaching this good news of the Kingdom is getting ever shorter! It is not reasonable to expect that present favorable conditions for preaching the good news will continue indefinitely. Besides, did not Jesus say that this generation will not pass away until all things are fulfilled? A generation, according to Psalm 90:10, is from seventy to eighty years. The generation that witnessed the end of the Gentile Times in 1914 does not have many more years left

*** w69 2/15 p. 101 The Last Days of This Wicked System of Things ***

This means that only a short time is left before the end comes! (Ps. 90:10) So now is the time to take urgent action if you do not want to be swept away with this wicked system.

The message at this time is clear - Work for the Watchtower Society or be destroyed by Jehovah. this is actually much worse that merely misleading people about when the end of this system of things would occur. There was clearly a very specific reason for this campaign. The Watchtower Society wanted Jehovah's Witnesses to feel a sense of panic so that they would devote the majority of their resources to selling Watchtower publications and converting more people. It worked too. Take a look at the increase that took place between 1969 and 1975 in the U.S. alone...


November 1969: 364,320 publishers

October 1975: 547,122 publishers

That's a 50% increase. Now compare that with the following six years...

October 1975: 547,122 publishers

October 1980: 557,933 publishers

...a mere 2% increase. By scaring people with a message from God about the impending destruction of life as we know it on this planet, The Watchtower Society realized a massive increase in members and revenue. The bottom line is that by deliberately misleading Jehovah's Witnesses, the Watchtower Society profited at the expense of those adherents.

Voice of Reason said...

".in the Watchtower, Jehovah's Witnesses understand it to be published under the direction of Jehovah and Jesus."

Some do and some are balanced and just accept it as the direction for that day.

No big deal.

Then there are the ones that get worked up over that and feel that they have to leave and be critical because they don't have a grasp on reality. hint, hint Y O U.


Those that are and know JWs. Know that the Watchtower did not tell anyone that the end would come in 1975.

But since you are a JW not living up to your dedication, you are not one to talk about what it means to be one of Jehovah's Witnesses.

Voice of Reason said...

While Shawn blindly quotes 40 year old magazines, he fails to realize that the ones who wrote those are dead. Thus calling them false prophets has no bearing on the JWs alive today. We didn't write that.

We have read the Bible and made our dedication to Jehovah.

At least we live up to our dedication. Unlike YOU.

Joepublisher1 said...

It doesn't sound like Shawn "blindly" quotes WT publications. As a matter of fact, it sounds like Shawn knows what he's talking about and makes sense.

It would appear that VOR is using false reasonings when he insists that the Watchtower is irrelevant. I mean, why study it every week? Why not study the Bible only instead of having a Q&A using an irrelevant publication? (VOR, your reasonings are both weak and pathetic. Also, staying faithful to a false religion that you know is NOT THE TRUTH says something about your character.)

It would appear that VOR has backed himself into a corner [yet again].

My thanks again to Shawn - who obviously has first-hand experience in this organization and is now able to talk with experience, knowledge and solid reasoning. I haven't seen the same type of solid reasonings from JW apologists. And, this is why the GB trys to steer it's members away from the internet.

Lastly, it's very interesting that the GB (who says it has a lock on the real truth) will not take on anyone with valid questions, disagreements and points. They don't sound too secure to me.

As a matter of fact, they conveniently hide behind policy in order to preclude them from facing tough questions and critizisms.

In the end, I still feel sorry for people like VOR. They have to engage in mental gymnastics in order to justify all the wrong that exists in this religious organization.

Again, not saying individual JW's are necessarily bad (except for the JW pedophiles, JW murders, etc. that have been in the news). It's the leaders that have never been held accountable for their mis-steps and misleading information. They don't even apologize for their mistakes, yet have supported many articles on being big enough to admit a mistake. That's the very definition of hypocrite. How can individual GB members live with this knowledge? It's troubling, for sure.

Shawn said...

VoR: "Some do and some are balanced and just accept it as the direction for that day.

No big deal."

If that were the way the Watchtower Society presented what they print, you'd be right. However, they repeatedly and continually claim to be God's sole channel of communication and call themselves 'holy'. That is a big deal... especially when they have been wrong so many times.

But let's follow your line of reasoning. Up until 1980, accepting an organ transplant was a disfellowshipping offense as it was considered equivalent to cannibalism. Countless faithful JWs died needlessly as a result of 'following the direction for that day'.

How is that not a big deal? These men, presenting themselves as God's spokesman, told people not to accept medical treatment that would save their lives.

You are right. I chose to leave that disingenuous organization when faced with the overwhelming evidence that the leaders of that organization misused their assumed authority to the point where people were (and still are) dying needlessly. I left because, even though they claim to have a direct link with God, they have been wrong over and over.

Who has a better grip on reality - the person who see the facts and changes the course of their life or one who after seeing the facts, blindly continues their association with a group of people who have misled their members to their death?

You yourself have admitted that "There is no evidence other than your cut and pasting from Watchtowers and Awakes". Well, by putting these false claims in writing the Watchtower Society have left a tremendous amount of evidence that they mislead their members about Armageddon arriving in 1975.

As far as not living up to my dedication, I have to correct you. I was asked two questions before I was baptized...

*** w85 6/1 p. 30 Subjecting Ourselves to Jehovah by Dedication ***

The first question is:

On the basis of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, have you repented of your sins and dedicated yourself to Jehovah to do his will?

The second is:

Do you understand that your dedication and baptism identify you as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses in association with God’s spirit-directed organization?


Notice what the Watchtower says about baptism.

*** w95 3/1 p. 13 par. 17 Dedicated—To Whom? ***

17 Just as Moses explained to the Israelites the conditions for entering a covenant relationship with Jehovah, elders in the congregations of Jehovah’s Witnesses help those who have recently made a dedication to examine just what is involved. They use prepared questions to confirm that each one fully understands the basic teachings of the Bible and is aware of what is involved in being a Witness of Jehovah.

A covenant is a two-way relationship. Both parties have rights and responsibilities. When I answered 'yes' to the second question, the implication was that Jehovah's Witnesses were part of 'God's spirit-directed organization'. The facts show otherwise. If the Watchtower Society were truly spirit-directed, would they have led so many faithful JWs to their deaths? If the Watchtower Society were actually God's sole channel of communication, would they have been wrong so many times about the arrival of Armageddon?

No. In fact, every JW who has answered 'yes' to that second question has been baptized under false pretenses.

If someone were to sign a purchase and sale agreement for a house and it turned out that the person making the offer didn't actually own the house that was being sold, would it be reasonable to make the buyer pay the amount on the agreement anyway?

Of course not. Similarly, when it became clear that the Watchtower Society was not, in fact, spirit-directed, it made the baptism they performed through their organization meaningless.

continued....

Shawn said...

Going back to the illustration about the person selling the house - If you had someone try to sell you a house that they didn't own to you, wouldn't you warn others about this this person committing this fraud? Any person with any moral sense at all would feel compelled to speak out against such a person.

A fraudster rarely commits one single act of fraud. Often, when one person speaks up, others also come forward and break the silence. This is what the Watchtower Society is experiencing now... scores of people who have realized how deceptive this group has been and feel compelled to alert other potential victims.

So even though I am happily no longer one of Jehovah's Witnesses, I feel that it's important to alert others to the Watchtower Society's false claims.

Voice of Reason said...

"If that were the way the Watchtower Society presented what they print, you'd be right."

Who cares how they present things, What they present is what they present. The Watchtower is simply the means of the governing body as elders of the worldwide congregation to instruction and teach the entire congregation at once. No different if the local congregation gives information.

As to their claim of being God's sole channel...

Since the literature that proceeds from the Watchtower Society is the means of teaching the worldwide congregation as a whole, that is what God's channel is.

As for the writer's being wrong... Yeah, so? Everyone one is wrong at some time. But that does not have a bearing on whether this is Jehovah's organization. Jehovah is much bigger than the wrongs that we can do. Think Jesus.

Accepting an organ transplant was never a disfellowshipping offense. The magazine's calling it cannibalism does not make it such. If Witnesses refused transplants because they believed it such, that was their choice. Others chose to get it. Others got it and died, others refuse and lived.

They did not tell anyone not to get lifesaving operations.

You left because you did not love God but you loved and worshipped man and those men were not good enough for you. I don't worship those men and my worship is for Jehovah God through his son. That is what being one of Jehovah's Witnesses is about. The Watchtower and GB is about congregations.

As for baptismal questions...

I have never heard a baptism talk stated that we are baptized to a person or organization. On the contrary, they state that we are not.

"baptism identify you as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses in association with God’s spirit-directed organization"

That is merely a disclaimer that you are now identified with the rest of us, so you can't say that you are not.

And this is a spirit directed organization because the spirit directed the Bible which directs the organization.

Voice of Reason said...

"So even though I am happily no longer one of Jehovah's Witnesses, I feel that it's important to alert others to the Watchtower Society's false claims. "

This is fraud you are committing.

You are not happy.

Non jws are not happy.

And why just focus on the Watchtower? What about the rest of JWs and our true claims that are from the Bible.

Well the fact that you are not one of Jehovah's Witnesses and did not know the Bible well enough shows that you don't know that.

Ringwielder said...

VoR, who interprets the Scriptures for you?

Joepublisher1 said...

VOR indicates that Shawn is committing fraud because he is now trying to alert people to the Watchtower Society's false claims.

Well, if that isn't the pot calling itself black. VOR is the fraud.

He calls himself a Jehovah's Witness and yet says above that the Watchtower publications are irrelevant.

Now I ask you... who is the fraud???

Shawn said...

VoR wrote: "You are not happy.

Non jws are not happy."

I'm glad you brought this issue of happiness up VoR. I really don't think you realize the level of control that the Watchtower Society has over your thoughts. The idea that someone must belong to a particular group in order to be happy is a classic cult mind control technique and you have been programmed with it, VoR.

Even though you claim that the Watchtower Society's publications are irrelevant, you seem to have their message so deeply rooted in your thought process, that it has become a knee-jerk response for you.

Think about what you've said. Without knowing anything about me except that I reject the doctrine and control techniques of the Watchtower Society, you simply declare that not only am I not happy, but all non-JWs are not happy.

Where would you get such an idea VoR? I'll tell you. You've been conditioned by the Watchtower Society that it's not possible for you to be happy outside of their control.

The Watchtower Society spends a lot of time telling Jehovah's Witnesses how they can be happy. In fact, they claim there is only one way to be truly happy. Many times, this message is delivered in the form of 'testimonials' which is basically a first name paired with a story.

*** w06 7/15 p. 22 par. 15 Focus on the Goodness of Jehovah’s Organization ***

15 Emanuel, for instance, was a Witness who found fault with some things he read in publications of “the faithful and discreet slave.” (Matthew 24:45) He stopped reading our Christian literature and eventually told the elders of the local congregation that he no longer wished to be one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. Within a short time, however, Emanuel came to realize that the teachings of Jehovah’s organization were correct after all. He contacted the Witnesses, admitted his mistake, and was reinstated as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. As a result, he again became a happy man.


Notice that the possibility that Emanuel could have been happy while not following the Watchtower Society's teachings isn't considered. What if Emanuel was perfectly happy while he wasn't one of Jehovah's Witnesses and just decided he wanted to go back to meetings? Happy people join and leave groups all the time.

Next we have Flora's story...

*** w02 8/15 p. 28 Would You Maintain Your Integrity? ***

Flora, whose husband and eldest son abandoned the Christian way more than ten years ago, understands the feelings Job must have had. “When you suddenly lose the support of your family, it can be traumatic,” she admits. “But I knew I wouldn’t find happiness outside Jehovah’s organization."


It is true, when you loose the support of your family like people who have been disfellowshipped, it can be traumatic, but there are many ex-Jehovah's Witnesses who have found happiness and a sense of purpose outside of the Watchtower Society's organization. Did Flora actually know she wouldn't find happiness outside of this organization, or was she convinced by anecdotal testimonials like this one?

Next we have Bob's story...

*** w89 7/15 p. 21 ‘But I Do Not Love Jehovah!’ ***

BOB was just a young lad when his mother became one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. For a number of years, he accompanied her to the Kingdom Hall and even in the preaching work, though he was never baptized. By the time he reached his late teens, however, he stopped associating with the Witnesses. Stumbling along from one bad situation to another, he made a wreck of his life.


This is a classic correlation-causality problem. Bob decided to stop associating with Jehovah's Witnesses. He also made some bad decisions in his life. Wasn't it really that Bob was unhappy because he went from one bad situation to another? There are millions of happy people who don't associate with Jehovah's Witnesses who have not made a wreck of their life.

continued...

Shawn said...

*** w93 11/1 p. 12 par. 21 Daniel’s Prophetic Days and Our Faith ***

Some were unwilling to adjust to these developments, but those who endured were truly happy.


It's true, many people are unwilling to 'adjust' to the many changes in beliefs that the Watchtower Society makes its members go through in order to be in good standing, but were all who 'endured' truly happy? Were the faithful Bible Students, as Jehovah's Witnesses were then known, truly happy when Armageddon did not arrive in 1914 after many of them had sold everything they owned in order to go into the full-time preaching work? When none of the 'faithful men of old' were resurrected in 1925, were those who went from door to door delivering this prediction that never came to pass truly happy?


*** w98 8/1 p. 24 ‘We Have Done What We Ought to Have Done’ ***

Give of yourself to the organization, and you are guaranteed to have a full, happy life. Whatever you are doing—whether it is pioneering, circuit work, serving with a congregation as a publisher, Bethel service, or missionary work—follow the direction outlined, and value your assignment. Try your best to enjoy every assignment and each day of work in Jehovah’s service. You will get tired, and you may get overworked or feel down at times. That is when you have to remember the purpose of dedicating your life to Jehovah. It is to do his will, not your own.


If you dedicate your life to distributing the Watchtower Society's literature, you are definitely guaranteed a full life... that is, your time will no longer be your own. Be careful when someone guarantees your happiness. What makes one person happy, make another person miserable. For instance, some people love to cook while others find it an oppressive chore. Everyone is different and no one can guarantee that by doing what makes them happy, you'll be happy too.


*** w84 6/15 p. 20 par. 1 Reminders and Orders of the God of a New System ***

GOD’S righteous new system is at hand! Jehovah’s Witnesses, who love his righteous law, need to get reminders from his Word and through his organization at vital times. Because they observe such divine reminders, they are happy. Such reminders move them to search for him, with happiness resulting. The English translation of the Hebrew word ‘edoth' as “reminders” instead of “testimonies” (martyri'a, according to the Greek Septuagint Version) is stronger and more purposeful. It indicates that Jehovah, as occasion requires, calls back to our minds what his law, his orders, his regulations, his commandments and statutes are. Thus he does not let us forget these entirely. If we do not get irritated at such reminders, we become happy because of observing them.


Here's another case of the Watchtower Society assuming the divine with a twist. They come right out and say that 'reminders' issued from the Watchtower Society's organization are 'divine reminders' and that if you observe them, you will be happy. When I was one of Jehovah's Witnesses, I saw countless unhappy marriages. Why? Because they were observing the Watchtower Society's 'reminders'. They could not get a divorce because one of them would have to do something that would get them disfellowshipped, or shunned by all other Jehovah's Witnesses. Additionally, happiness is not something that can be attained by following a strict set of rules. It's true that making bad decisions, like taking up heroin for instance, is not going to bring you happiness, but do you really need the Watchtower Society to tell you to avoid making these bad decisions?

When He was on earth, Jesus did away with the burdensome rules of the Jewish system and replaced the with a single principle, love. Jesus didn't give His followers lists of rules to follow. He was even kind to people who made poor life decisions.

continued...

Shawn said...

*** w06 5/15 pp. 28-29 pars. 11-12 The Joys of Walking in Integrity ***

11 Knowing what brings true happiness. What does bring true happiness? One psychologist said that happiness has three components—pleasure, engagement (involvement in such activities as work and family), and meaning (working toward a larger end or goal than self). Of the three, he listed pleasure as the least consequential and observed: “This is newsworthy because so many people build their lives around pursuing pleasure.” What is the Bible’s view in this regard?

12 King Solomon of ancient Israel stated: “I said, even I, in my heart: ‘Do come now, let me try you out with rejoicing. Also, see good.’ And, look! that too was vanity. I said to laughter: ‘Insanity!’ and to rejoicing: ‘What is this doing?’” (Ecclesiastes 2:1, 2) Scripturally, whatever happiness pleasure offers is at best temporary. What about involvement in work? We have the most meaningful work to get involved in—the Kingdom-preaching and disciple-making work. (Matthew 24:14; 28:19, 20) By sharing with others the message of salvation outlined in the Bible, we engage in a work that can result in our own salvation and in that of those who listen to us. (1 Timothy 4:16) As “God’s fellow workers,” we experience that “there is more happiness in giving than there is in receiving.” (1 Corinthians 3:9; Acts 20:35) This work adds meaning to our life and provides the Creator with an answer for his taunter, Satan the Devil. (Proverbs 27:11) Indeed, Jehovah has shown us that godly devotion brings genuine and lasting happiness.—1 Timothy 4:8.




The Watchtower Society likes to talk about how anyone who isn't one of Jehovah's Witnesses is focused on 'the pursuit of pleasure'. This is simply not the case. There are many people who have devoted their lives to a greater cause and have made a difference in the world. Going door-to-door and reading people scriptures is not the only way a person can add meaning to their life.


*** w02 10/1 p. 14 par. 12 Jehovah Blesses and Protects Those Who Are Obedient ***

Yes, may all of us discern that there is no future for those who seek “great things” for themselves in this system. Not only do such ones fail to find true happiness but, worse still, they will soon pass away with this world and all its selfish desires.


What about the millions of people who lived before C. T. Russell started his ministry? Were there no truly happy people before then? Were all of those people full of selfish desires? Certainly not! Just as there were truly happy people before Russell, there are truly happy, unselfish people today who are not Jehovah's Witnesses.

These blanket statements that the Watchtower Society makes oversimplify the human experience. There are many ways that a person can be truly happy without being one of Jehovah's Witnesses and who are not in some selfish pursuit of pleasure.

*** w01 6/15 p. 18 par. 21 Do Not Become Forgetful Hearers ***

May we remember our precious relationship with Jehovah and continue to do the Kingdom-preaching work that has been entrusted to us. (Matthew 24:14; 28:19, 20) Such a course is sure to bring us true happiness.


There's that promise again... The promise that if you hand out Watchtower Society publications, you're sure to be truly happy. Just as there are many truly happy people who are not Jehovah's Witnesses, there are many Jehovah's Witnesses who are not happy with their lives. They are unhappy with how controlling the Watchtower Society's is. They are unhappy about not being 'allowed' to talk to their loved ones because those loved ones decided not to remain one of Jehovah's Witnesses. They are unhappy about the elders, a group of imperfect men, holding sway over their lives.

Shawn said...

If you're one of those unhappy Jehovah's Witnesses, I'm happy to tell you that you can be truly happy outside of the Watchtower Society's organization. Leaving does not mean that you will 'make a wreck of your life'. Your life can certainly have meaning even though you're not knocking on doors every weekend. You don't have to turn your back on faith just because you no longer want to be one of Jehovah's Witnesses.

Since I've left the organization, I've never been happier. I'm not a drug dealer or an addict. I haven't fallen into prostitution. I'm not obsessed with the pursuit of pleasure. I'm a truly happy former Jehovah's Witness and you can be one too. The key to getting out is getting the facts about the Watchtower Society.

Voice of Reason said...

Shawn,

you are wrong again.

The Watchtower Society has no control over my thought. How can they I don't read their literature.

"he idea that someone must belong to a particular group in order to be happy is a classic cult mind control technique and you have been programmed with it, VoR."

I didn't say someone must belong to a group to be happy.

I said that nonjws are not happy. That does not mean that Jws are happy because they are in a group, that just means that nonjws are not happy.

I am not programmed with anything.

"Without knowing anything about me except that I reject the doctrine and control techniques of the Watchtower Society"

You don't reject anything from the WTS. You are a follower of it. You are under control if you believe that they control at all.

And then you quote other people but that is not the WTS, that is what people think. They have that right and freedom to think that way.

If you were not controlled by the WTS because you want to be, you would not be quoting their literature. You don't see me doing that.

Voice of Reason said...

If non-jws are happy as you state, why do they complain when Jws come to their doors and talk to them?

JWs don't complain when other Jws come to their doors. Oh, but they don't come to their doors because they are out in the ministry and not home.

Shawn said...

VoR,

Saying that all nonJWs are unhappy is still buying the Watchtower Society's message that the only chance that a person has to be happy is to follow them. You may claim not to read the Watchtower Society's literature, but your responses tell a different story. Another thing, if you don't read any of the literature that JW's are supposed to read, what do you do at the meetings, stare at the wall? You might fool some people here, but not all of us. Even if you do refuse to read any of the WTS publications, if you go to the meetings, you're still getting that cult programming, oh - I mean 'spiritual food'.It's that programming which motivates you to say something as unreasonable as 'all nonJWs are unhappy'.

So what about all of the people who lived before C. T. Russel claimed that a pyramid confirmed his belief that Jehovah was going to bring Armageddon in 1914? Were there no happy people before that? Because they certainly weren't JWs.

This is the mind control technique called exclusivism. Here's an excerpt from the site www.howcultswork.com


Exclusivism
A normal religious organization would not have any trouble with you moving to another similar organization as long as you stayed in that same religion. Because it is the belief system that matters, not membership in an organization. For example if you were a Christian then you could move from one church to another and still be a Christian.

However cult leaders will tell you can only be "saved" (or can only be successful) in their organization alone. No other organization has the truth, all others miss the mark. So it is not the belief system that decides your future, but it the belief system AND your membership with that particular group.


The cult leaders need to make you believe that there is no where else you can go and still be saved, and if you ever leave the "one true church" then you are going to hell. This is a fear based control mechanism designed to keep you in the cult. It also gives the cult leaders tremendous power over you. If you really believe that leaving the group equals leaving God (or means you are leaving your only chance to succeed in life), then you will obey the cult leaders even when you disagree with them instead of risking being kicked out of the group. Exclusivism is used as a threat, it controls your behavior through fear.


Be very suspicious of any group that claims to be better than all the others. A religious group may say that other groups following the same religion are OK, but they are the ones who have a better grasp of the truth and they are superior to the rest. This is often just a subtle version of exclusivism.


This is one of the practices that cults are often very deceptive about. For example, first off they may give you the impression that they think you are a true Christian, Buddhist or Muslim and it's not until later that their true position is revealed.


VoR wrote: "You don't reject anything from the WTS. You are a follower of it. You are under control if you believe that they control at all."

So, again, let's go with your line of 'reasoning'. When one person or group controls another, the controlling group has an agenda and uses those under their control to their advantage. If the WTS is controlling me, how is it to their advantage that I expose them as the frauds and false prophets that they are? Is the WTS a suicidal organization that wants people to expose their serious faults?

continued...

Shawn said...

VoR wrote: "And then you quote other people but that is not the WTS, that is what people think. They have that right and freedom to think that way."

Ah - I didn't quote other people. I quoted the Watchtower articles that claimed to quote others. You see, these testimonials are effective because they give the appearance that you don't have to take their word for it - you can hear what 'Bob' or 'Maria' has to say. The fact is, there's no evidence that Bob or any of the other names they use are even real people. These stories are purely anecdotal.

VoR wrote: "If you were not controlled by the WTS because you want to be, you would not be quoting their literature. You don't see me doing that."

We don't see you quoting from the Watchtower Society's literature because it would only prove our point - That the Watchtower Society is not Jehovah's visible organization, but merely a group of men that employ cult mind control techniques to keep people from living their own lives and keep them knocking on doors.

VoR wrote: "If non-jws are happy as you state, why do they complain when Jws come to their doors and talk to them?"

Yet another ridiculous assertion from VoR. A person can be happy and still be annoyed when a cult member interrupts their day with a lie that very soon Jehovah will murder almost everyone on the planet so that JWs will get to live in a park and pet friendly lions and pandas. Secondly, I would never make the kind of blanket assertion that all nonJWs are happy... because that would be silly. There are happy nonJWs and unhappy nonJWs. The point is that being happy has nothing to do with membership in some group.

VoR wrote: "JWs don't complain when other Jws come to their doors. Oh, but they don't come to their doors because they are out in the ministry and not home."

Exactly! Thanks for bringing that up, VoR. This is yet another mind control technique that the Watchtower Society uses.

Time Control
Mind control cults keep their members so busy with meetings and activities that they become too busy and too tired to think about their involvement.

Time control also helps the cult keep their members immersed in the manufactured cult environment.

And time control helps keep cult members away from friends and family.

Voice of Reason said...

"Saying that all nonJWs are unhappy is still buying the Watchtower Society's message that the only chance that a person has to be happy is to follow them"

I didn't say anything about following anyone did I?

And the Watchtower society does not have a message. And there is no following the WTS.

I read the magazines while out in service and read the literature that is considered at the meetings but not with the intent of learning from it because I already know everything.

Voice of Reason said...

Farrah died. Ed McMahon died.

That is what the world and this system has to offer.

But we know better.

We have hope through Jesus that death is not the end. Just a short nap.

Joepublisher1 said...

VOR said: "I read the magazines while out in service and read the literature that is considered at the meetings but not with the intent of learning from it because I already know everything."

Then why read the literature?

You are just not right VOR. The only thing that I'm happy about is that your replies and their silliness are helping NON-JW'S and JW's alike to steer away from this religion.

So, thanks VOR for convincing me that JW's do NOT have the TRUTH - they never did, they don't now, nor will they in the future. It's all a scam - a truly man-made religion for which JW's adherents worship an organization (which of course is idol worship).

The more you respond with your silliness and pride VOR, the more I'm convinced that some JW's (like yourself) need therapy [and quick, the quicker the better].

Just remember, it was YOU who said, the WTS literature is irrelevant. I don't think any of use could have said it better (we agree), but it actually is better when a JW's admits that himself! So, again, thank you for shooting yourself in the foot - yet again!)

Joepublisher1 said...

VOR states proudly, "But we [JW's]know better."

Hmmm, what whas the title of this blog? "Did the Watchtower Really Predict 1975 as the End of The World."

JW's back then VOR, were JUST AS POSITIVE that they knew better. I know ones who lived through it. One was even waging bets with worldly people that the end would come in 1975. Real confident he was - until Jan 1st, 1976 rolled around.

VOR, you have no reason to be that confident when you've been associated with a religion that has so many failed prophecies and so many mistakes.

btw: Are you one of the increasing annointed? (What a bunch of crap that is. Have you ever noticed that the WTS/GB/congregations don't touch that topic of the incredible increase of the annointed lately? Everyone knows that there is something very wrong with the 144,000 teaching. Once that blows up - and it will - you are going to see an exodus from this religion because sincere JW's who have been mis-led are going to come to their senses. I cannot wait for that to happen. Also, once 1914 blows up, not sure which will happen first, this will signal an exit for many!)

So, have a nice time spreading a religion that deep down you know to be false. I mean you have indicated to everyone that you don't read/accept WTS literature. Of course, this you do out of convenience because all the xJW's keep using what was written to prove how wrong this religion is. Nonetheless, you try to manufacture your own rationale for believing in this religion. Because you have been exposed to the multitude of web sites which prove conclusively that JW are not who they say they are, you will eventually come to your senses. When you do, I'd like to meet you because I will NEVER say to you, I TOLD YOU SO. I will embrace you with sincerity and open arms because we all fell for these lies and half-truths UNTIL the Internet (for many) freed our minds.)

What you need to do is to understand that promoting a religion that is false, is wrong (no matter how you try to rationalize it - and that's whay you are doing VOR.) You look for areas in which they might possibly be right. The problem is, the WTS has committed the unforgiveable sin against God's spirit by CLAIMING to be his mouthpiece - do you understand how grave that is?

Shawn said...

VoR wrote: "And the Watchtower society does not have a message. And there is no following the WTS."

Let me clarify what I and Jehovah's Witnesses in general mean when they talk about the Watchtower Society... again. (I thought you knew everything?)


*** w98 3/15 p. 18 par. 3 Living Up to Christian Dedication in Freedom ***

3 Someone may argue that the way the Witnesses speak about the Watch Tower Society—or more often just “the Society”—indicates that they view it as more than a legal instrument. Do they not consider it to be the final authority on matters of worship? The book Jehovah’s Witnesses—Proclaimers of God’s Kingdom clarifies this point by explaining: “When The Watchtower [June 1, 1938] referred to ‘The Society,’ this meant, not a mere legal instrumentality, but the body of anointed Christians that had formed that legal entity and used it.”

So when I talk about Jehovah's Witnesses following the Watchtower Society, I'm using the term as described above.


VoR wrote: "Farrah died. Ed McMahon died.

That is what the world and this system has to offer."

If you think a couple of dead celebrities is all this world has to offer, you really need to get out more.

VoR wrote: "We have hope through Jesus that death is not the end."

Actually, all Christians have this hope. So there's no need to become one of Jehovah's Witnesses if you have this hope through Jesus, right? I mean, Jesus died for our sins so that anyone putting faith in Him might be saved. There are many, many people who lead moral lives, believe in the principles that Jesus taught and have faith that He died for our sins.

This is great news for anyone out there who puts faith in Jesus, but has serious reservations about the Watchtower Society. Namely, you don't have to give up faith in Christ in order to leave the Watchtower Society's organization.

Voice of Reason said...

Ringwielder,

what scripture(s) are you referring?

I don't believe that the Bible needs interpreting, other than to another language.

Joepublisher1 said...

I know I sound like a broken record, but I have to once again say thanks to Shawn. You have donated your time to present arguments AND PROOFS that are irrefutable.

You sound like me. Once a strong JW who simply believed what he/she was being told...

Until certain things started to not add up (i.e. generation change in 1996) and of course the Internet.

Again, I've appreciated how you logically destroyed the silly responses from VOR and have shown to the world that some JW's will try anything to disprove valid critisms of their religion - they simply aren't interested in the real truth.

And, that's what xJW's have done. They have exchanged the so-call TRUTH (as put forth by JW's leaders) for the REAL TRUTH.

Interesting, isn't it. The REAL TRUTH always wins out. The so-called Truth puts forth by JW's leaders always changes, which makes the term TRUTH meaningless - but they don't see it that way because they have accepted a different meaning to the world TRUTH. Truth to a believing JW means it could change at any moment.

It's just unbelievable how twisted the leaders of this religion are. Of course, Ray Franz reminds us that they (the leaders) are captives of a concept - that being, that they are being used by God to preach the truth and only them. Of course, we know now, it's all man-made. As soon as a JW searches the Internet, they are confronted with facts and details that blow this religion clean out of the water. No wonder the leaders DO NOT want their inherents to visit these sites (www.watchtowercomments.com www.freeminds.org www.silentlambs.org www.sixscreensofthewatchtower.com, etc.).

Of course, if JW's REALLY HAVE THE TRUTH, what could these sites possibly contain that would cause a current JW to believe that they don't have the truth. Well, each individual JW will have to answer that question themselves after reading up on these sites.

Joepublisher1 said...

VOR, who interprets Matthew 24:45-47 for you? And, the second/third questions are closely related. Who specifically is fulfilling Matthew 24:45-47 and how?

Shawn said...

voR wrote: "I don't believe that the Bible needs interpreting, other than to another language."

The Bible shouldn't be interpreted into another language, it should be translated. Unfortunately, interpreting the Bible is exactly what the Watchtower Society did when it produced The New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures

paco said...

I have been associated my whole life with JW'S my wole life and , I'm in my 40's now,and have NEVER heard that the end of the world would, or was supposed to come in 1975. This has NEVER been a teaching at any Kingdom Hall of JW'S. Yes, it is true that JW'S have been saying that the end is soon to come and that we are living in the last days. This is exactly what Noah did for many years while building the Ark. Like you, the people in the days of Noah ridiculed him, and just ignored the warnings. What happened? Only 8 people survived this great flood over the entire earth. What happened to those who did not listen to Noah. They were all destryed, men, women, and yes, even the children too. It is a privledge to be able to have a relationship with Jehovah God. I look forward to Jehovah's day of salvation that he will accomplish through his sn Jesus Christ. I look forward to this just as Noah and his family looked forward to getting on that ark and being preserved alive. If you doubt that this ever happened, then get a bible and read it for yourself in the book of Genesis. Like the people in Noah's day were too busy with every day life, eating, drinking, getting married that they refused to listen to what Noah was telling them. When the end came(the flood), it was too late for those who did not listen. That is what will happen when the end or Armagaedon comes on today's people. Jehovah God has not changed. Just as he used Noah to warn the people about the upcoming flood, he likewise today is using his visible organization here on earth to warn the people of today. This is done out of LOVE. Jehovah wanted the people in Noah's day to be saved, otherwise he would not have used Noah to warn them. He gave them a chance. He is giving ALL people's today a chance to gain salvation. He does not desire any to die. Please do not forget that!

Shawn said...

Paco,
since you're one of Jehovah's Witnesses, you have access to the Watchtower Library. All of the references I've made come from the 2007 edition.

You say you're in your 40's so you were 10-ish when 1975 happened. Is it possible that you weren't completely aware of the implications the Watchtower Society was making?

While your looking things up in the WT library CD, try doing the math around the gentile times prophesy. Not many JWs understand this core doctrine and fewer can explain it. I've written a post about this. Using only the Watchtower Society's publications, the facts point to the year 587 B.C.E. as the year the temple in Jerusalem was destroyed... which means that 1914 is not a notable year scripturally.

Also look up what the society has to say about their claim that the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem happened in 607 B.C.E. They don't say much other than there may be 'yet undiscovered evidence' that proves them right. Well, undiscovered evidence isn't evidence at all.

Anyway, I know you won't believe me so please look it up yourself and do the math.

There is absolutely no reason to believe that our generation is somehow special. Neither of us are going to be murdered by God. Armageddon is not 'right around the corner'. It wasn't in 1913 -it wasn't in 1918 - it wasn't in 1925 - it wasn't in 1975 - and it's not now either.

It's okay Paco, you're going to be fine and hopefully live a long and happy life. It just won't include witnessing Armageddon.

Voice of Reason said...

Shawn,

interpreting and translating is the same thing.

Interpreting is taking from something unknown and bringing it to the known.

Translating is taking an unknown language and making it known.

The WTS did not produce the NWT. The NW Bible translation committee gave it to them to print and own the copyright.

Voice of Reason said...

Joepub muttered:
"VOR indicates that Shawn is committing fraud because he is now trying to alert people to the Watchtower Society's false claims."

I state that Jehovah's Witnesses is not about the Watchtower Society because we are not. The WTS merely prints the literature.

The WTS and its board of directors don't do anything.

The branch offices oversee the congregations in the branches lands.

The governing body oversees the worldwide congregation.


"Well, if that isn't the pot calling itself black. VOR is the fraud."

Nope, I understand how things work.
That is my ability.

"He calls himself a Jehovah's Witness and yet says above that the Watchtower publications are irrelevant."

No, I don't call myself 'a Jehovah's Witness". I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses.

"Now I ask you... who is the fraud??? ""

You.

Voice of Reason said...

Joepub:

"thanks VOR for convincing me that JW's do NOT have the TRUTH "

Joe, JWs do have the truth.

Jehovah is God.
Jesus is his son.
The death and resurrection of Jesus allows for the ransom to remove sin from those putting faith in him.

That is the truth.

JWs have it.

You stumble over the rest so you stumble over that.

Voice of Reason said...

Joepub:
"who interprets Matthew 24:45-47 for you? "

I don't believe it needs interpreting.

"And, the second/third questions are closely related. Who specifically is fulfilling Matthew 24:45-47 and how? "

That is the process or program of deliving the spiritual food to the worldwide congregation, not a who.
It was a who but needs not be anymore.

Voice of Reason said...

Paco,

These people don't care about the Bible or Biblical examples. The truth confuses them.

Voice of Reason said...

Shawn:
"Not many JWs understand this core doctrine and fewer can explain it."

And you don't either. 1914 is not Russell's invention. It is not based on the destruction of Jerusalem either. Russell's mentor made it that way but it was not based on that prior to him either.

And it does not matter when armageddon will come. We serve Jehovah because we love him. And he is the one that prophesied armageddon.

spiritualbrother said...

So what is 1914 based on,VOR?

Shawn said...

VoR wrote:"interpreting and translating is the same thing.

Interpreting is taking from something unknown and bringing it to the known.

Translating is taking an unknown language and making it known."

Actually, interpreting and translating are two very different things. Here are the definitions of the two words from the Meriam Webster dictionary.

in·ter·pret
Pronunciation:
\in-'t?r-pr?t, -p?t\
Function:
verb
Etymology:
Middle English, from Anglo-French & Latin; Anglo-French interpreter, from Latin interpretari, from interpret-, interpres agent, negotiator, interpreter
Date:
14th century

transitive verb
1 : to explain or tell the meaning of : present in understandable terms [interpret dreams] [needed help interpreting the results]

2 : to conceive in the light of individual belief, judgment, or circumstance : construe [interpret a contract]

3 : to represent by means of art : bring to realization by performance or direction [interprets a role]

trans·la·tion Listen to the pronunciation of translation
Pronunciation:
\tran(t)s-'la-sh?n, tranz-\
Function:
noun
Date:
14th century

1: an act, process, or instance of translating: as a: a rendering from one language into another ; also : the product of such a rendering b: a change to a different substance, form, or appearance : conversion c (1): a transformation of coordinates in which the new axes are parallel to the old ones (2): uniform motion of a body in a straight line

2: the process of forming a protein molecule at a ribosomal site of protein synthesis from information contained in messenger RNA — compare transcription 3
— trans·la·tion·al Listen to the pronunciation of translational \-shn?l, -sh?-n?l\ adjective

Here's the difference. the pages of the Bible should be translated from one language to another. Interpretation should not be part of the translations process. For instance. The Tetragrammaton does not appear even once in the Christian Greek scriptures - not one single instance... and yet the Watchtower Society has peppered the name Jehovah (the English translation of YHWH) throughout the Greek scriptures. The 'translation' committee added the divine name to scriptures where it never existed.

Additionally, there are doctrinal influences, or interpretation, included in the New World Translation. Take a look at John 17:3 from several translations.

And this is eternal life, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom Thou hast sent. (John 17:3, NASB)


Now this is eternal life, that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. (John 17:3, NIV)


But this is the everlasting life in order that they may be knowing you the only true God and Jesus Christ whom you sent forth. (John 17:3, The Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures)

And this is the age-lasting life, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent. (John 17:3, The Emphatic Diaglott)


This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ. (John 17:3, The New World Translation)

The NWT says something very different from the others. The other translations say that everlasting life comes through knowing the true God and Jesus Christ. The NWT however, says that learning about God and Christ is how everlasting life is gained. Notice how the Watchtower Society uses this scripture.

continued...

Shawn said...

*** w07 3/15 p. 7 What Christ’s Coming Will Accomplish ***

What must you do to enjoy the blessings that Christ’s rule will shower upon mankind? Undertake a careful study of God’s Word, the Bible. In a prayer to his Father, Jesus said: “This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.” (John 17:3) Make it your goal to examine what the Bible teaches. Jehovah’s Witnesses in your area will be happy to assist you in this regard.

*** w07 7/15 p. 5 Do You Have an Immortal Soul? ***

How vital it is to gain accurate knowledge of what the resurrection is and what it means for mankind! Also essential is knowledge of God and Christ, for in prayer Jesus said: “This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.” (John 17:3) Jehovah’s Witnesses in your community will be happy to assist you in studying the Bible so that you can increase your knowledge of God, his Son, and His promises.

*** w06 1/1 pp. 6-7 How Good Will Conquer Evil ***

Throughout the past century and up until now, Jehovah’s Witnesses have zealously fulfilled Jesus’ commission: “Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you.” (Matthew 28:19, 20) Those who respond to this message have the prospect of living forever on earth under Christ’s heavenly government. Jesus said: “This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.” (John 17:3) Helping someone to gain this knowledge is the greatest good one person can do for another.


*** w06 8/15 p. 7 “As in Heaven, Also Upon Earth” ***

Everlasting life on earth is what the Creator, the God who ‘has not changed,’ originally purposed. (Malachi 3:6; John 17:3; James 1:17) For more than a century, this magazine, The Watchtower, has explained these two aspects in the accomplishing of the divine purpose. This allows us to understand the promises of an earthly restoration that are found in the Scriptures.

*** w06 9/15 pp. 6-7 Are We Really Living in “the Last Days”? ***

Only those standing in an approved condition before the Son of man, Jesus, will have the prospect of surviving the end of this system of things. How vital that we use the remaining time to seek the approval of Jehovah God and Jesus Christ! In prayer to God, Jesus said: “This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.” (John 17:3) It is, then, the course of wisdom on your part to learn more about Jehovah God and his requirements. Jehovah’s Witnesses in your community will be happy to assist you in understanding what the Bible teaches.

*** w06 10/1 p. 6 You Can Live Forever ***

Do you desire the precious gift of eternal life? If so, you must prove yourself loyal and obedient to the “King of eternity.” You need to learn about Jehovah and the one through whom such life is made possible, Jesus Christ. To all who are willing to accept God’s standards of right and wrong will be granted the gift of “everlasting life.”—John 17:3.

continued...

Shawn said...

*** w06 11/15 p. 5 An Issue That Involves You ***

It is God’s will that “all sorts of men should be saved and come to an accurate knowledge of truth.” (1 Timothy 2:4) How can you do that? Make time to study the Bible and ‘take in knowledge of the only true God and of the one whom he sent forth, Jesus Christ.’—John 17:3.

Satan challenged man’s integrity by questioning man’s motives for serving God. If knowledge is to influence your motives, it must reach your heart. And for this to happen, you need to do more than merely seek information from the Bible. Cultivate the practice of meditating on what you learn. (Psalm 143:5) When reading the Bible or a Bible-based publication, be sure to take time to reflect on such questions as these: ‘What does this teach me about Jehovah? What qualities of God do I see expressed here? In what areas of my life do I need to be like this? Of what does God approve or disapprove? How does that affect the way I feel about God?’ Such pondering will fill your heart with love and appreciation for the Creator.


*** w05 10/1 p. 7 Do You Recognize the Sign of Jesus’ Presence? ***

As the last days reach their climax, Jesus will wipe out this old system and the people who support it. The Messianic Kingdom will then administer affairs on earth, which will be brought to its foretold Paradise condition. Mankind will be freed from sickness and death, and the dead will be resurrected to life on earth. These are the delightful prospects awaiting those who recognize the sign of the times. Would it not be the wise course to learn more about the sign and what one must do to survive the end of this system? Surely this ought to be a matter of great urgency for everyone.—John 17:3.

The Watchtower Society uses John 17:3 to emphasize studying their publications instead of what the scripture is actually about, a Christian's personal relationship with God and Christ.

Shawn said...

VoR wrote:"Jehovah is God.
Jesus is his son.
The death and resurrection of Jesus allows for the ransom to remove sin from those putting faith in him."

Again, this concept is not peculiar to Jehovah's Witnesses. So I ask again, if this is what is required to benefit from Christ's sacrifice, then why do you need to become one of Jehovah's Witnesses? What you've described is a Christian concept.

If that is the truth, then there's no need to join a group that will tell all of your JW friends and family to stop speaking to you of they decide they don't like the kind of questions you're asking or books you're reading. There's no need go door to door handing out the Watchtower Society's publications.

Thanks for clearing that up, VoR. We don't need to belong to a cult in order to put faith in Jesus' sacrifice.

Shawn said...

Yes, VoR, please explain to us all why the Watchtower Society and Jehovah's Witnesses think that the year 1914 is significant?

You have a couple of options here.

First, you could show us from the Bible where 1914 is marked as the date when Armageddon - I mean, Jesus' invisible presence would begin.

Secondly, you could cite the Watchtower Society's publications so we can understand why they think the year 1914 is significant. You do claim to hand this literature out to people at the doors, so clearly it must have some value to those who don't 'know everything' yet.

You spend a lot of time telling us that we're wrong, but you don't explain why we're wrong. Just saying someone is wrong without supporting your argument with facts that we can verify independently is a weak one.

You claim to already know everything. Is it not your obligation to defend your faith, or are you hiding your light under a basket?

Either Jehovah's Witnesses are right about the significance of 1914 or they have been mislead. Please explain what you believe as one of Jehovah's Witnesses.

Joepublisher1 said...

Shawn said of VOR: "You spend a lot of time telling us that we're wrong, but you don't explain why we're wrong. Just saying someone is wrong without supporting your argument with facts that we can verify independently is a weak one."

And that's my point to all JW apologists. Shawn has devoted much time to generate a sequence of logic that is often responded to with silly blanket statements, like we love Jehovah, you don't.

How is that helping me to see whether JW's really have valid responses/answers to Shawn's research? (It doesn't... and so I restate what I've stated over and over again... I've yet to see a JW apologist who can follow and answer the valid cristism from an xJW. No wonder I now believe the xJW's over the JW apologists, because the JW apologists has no answer to tough, yet valid questions.)

Joepublisher1 said...

Paco said, "I have been associated my whole life with JW'S my wole life and , I'm in my 40's now,and have NEVER heard that the end of the world would, or was supposed to come in 1975. This has NEVER been a teaching at any Kingdom Hall of JW'S."

As Shawn mentioned you were young and perhaps didn't get caught up in this... my wife, who is the same age wasn't aware of this until just recently.

Also, have you attended the latest Dis. Conv. "Keep on the Watch"?

At our convention, a GB member admitted that JW's were wrong about 1975, but excused it because at least JW were on the watch, compared to Christendom.

My wife and I looked at each other with much surprise. I wondered to myself, is the GB reading the xJW sites or something? Perhaps they feel it's necessary to say something about 1975 because if they continue to deny it then (as Shawn points out) simply by researching the history/WT literature, people will see clearly that JW leaders were pointing everyone to 1975 as being "the end".

Then, to our astonishment, he mentioned 1975 again in his concluding program part! Perhaps the title of the convention "Keep on the Watch" forced him to again confront this previous WTS error - thinking the old-sters and the informed may be thinking, 'How do we know the end is right around the corner? - you indicated that in 1975 and now it's over 3 decades later and NO END.'

So, bottom line is that the GB IS AWARE THAT the WTS indicated to JWs and non-JW's alike that 1975 was "the end". (What is interesting are all the JW's who deny this. I believe some are truly in the dark over this matter (i.e. Paco) and then there are others who will twist what JW taught about 1975 (i.e. VOR) in order to prove to all that their religion is THE TRUTH. Just remember VOR, pride comes before a fall. And, the internet is now a source for all to get to information that is not talked about in your local KH.)

Joepublisher1 said...

Lastly, Shawn you are right on the money with VOR. Here's an individual who claims to know everything (that's his documented words above, not mine) and yet he has not successfully answered/responded to your questions and line of logic.

For an individual who claims he knows everything, that doesn't say much about what he knows. Shawn puts real effort in his posts, however VOR posts foolish responses that don't help me to see that he possesses THE TRUTH.

Joepublisher1 said...

Paco, you mentioned that you were a JW all your life. Did a parent or both parents bring you to the KH? Ask them (like my wife did) about 1975. Initially her mother tolled the JW line - 'we never printed that'. Then, she opened up and admitted that indeed this was a teaching that JW's were exposed to and deeply believed! As a matter of fact, the JW who initally preached to her mother in the early 70's taught that none of her children would need to be concerned about graduating from H.S. I don't have to tell you what happened to that false prediction.

Joepublisher1 said...

This blog started out with this response from VOR

"No, it did not."

"And so what if it did."

If you do your homework, you'll see that JW's did teach and promote that 1975 would bring THE END.

So what? It means that JW's leaders were wrong - even though they evaded this for years and NEVER apologized to all those loyal adherents who altered their lives (and many in a devasting financial manner).

Moreso, it also means they are NOT who they say they are. They ARE NOT God's sole channel of truth. Add to 1975 their MANY mistakes (www.watchtowercomments.com www.silentlambs.org www.freeminds.org www.sixscreensofthewatchtower.com ETC.) and misleading information and you conclude like so many other xJW's, that they are simply a religion that thinks/preaches it has a lock on THE TRUTH. (BTW: That's why the history of any organization if very important to study before becoming involved.)

Joepublisher1 said...

JoeP "And, the second/third questions are closely related. Who specifically is fulfilling Matthew 24:45-47 and how? "

VOR responded, "That is the process or program of deliving the spiritual food to the worldwide congregation, not a who.
It was a who but needs not be anymore."

VOR, can you be anymore vague? What process/program? What spiritual food? What worldwide congregation, does it have name? Who was the "who"?

Joepublisher1 said...

Interesting was this quote from a August 1, 1958 Watchtower on page 460: "The clergy have dominated their lives, told them what they can read, what they should believe and do. To ask sound religious question is a demonstration of lack of faith in God and the church, according to the clergy. As a result, the Irish people do very little independent thinking. The are victims of the clergy and fear."

If you check out this video about JW's use of the term THE TRUTH, you'll see the outright hyprocrisy in the statements above - it's absolutely astonishing and really quite embarassing for any JW to contemplate how much these words actually apply to all JWs!

http://www.freeminds.org/v/WTV080415Propaganda.html

The Internet now reveals what you won't hear in your local KH. Please check out the above video and it's related videos. The information is irrefutable, in my opinion. And, people like VOR and his posts prove so.

Voice of Reason said...

spiritual brother:
"So what is 1914 based on,"

Jehovah's covenant with David.

Joepublisher1 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Joepublisher1 said...

One has to feel sorry for VOR - he just doesn't get it. The only thing I'm happy about is that anyone reading this blog, thinking about becoming a JW or curious about them, certainly isn't aided by VOR vague and inadequate responses - I think some would even be stumpled by many of his posts, too. So, thank you VOR for at least helping out in that manner. I have to laugh, because you think you're a JW apologist, when in fact your posts would stumple most people, in-and-out of your organization.

Ringwielder said...

I appreciate your answers Shawn and I am sure that your main purpose was to help readers of this blog see the untruth of the JW belief, rather than feed the troll.

I have rarely seen such a one sided debate and I am sure that VoRs ridiculous responses ('No it did not. And so what if it did.' WTF?)have done as much as yours to convince any readers of this blog that the JWS are wrong.

Shawn said...

VoR wrote:"spiritual brother:
"So what is 1914 based on,"

Jehovah's covenant with David."

Is that so? Please tell us how that math works. How does the Bible take us from King David to 1914? We're all very eager to hear the truth!

roflagain said...

I'm failing to see the value of the point being made here. Jehovah's Witnesses are not infallible. They make adjustments where necessary (Proverbs 4:18). Jehovah's Witnesses used to celebrate Christmas. Now we don't. Should that rock the foundations of Jehovah's Witnesses because they celebrated Christmas at one time? Should I leave the truth simply because, as you state, Jehovah's Witnesses predicted a specific year as the time of end? I'm actually more confident in an organization that is willing to make adjustments rather than stick to old teachings. I'm sorry, but I can't imagine being that hung up over such mundane things.

Shawn said...

roflagain,
But they have stuck to erroneous beliefs. At first 1914 was when Armageddon was going to happen. Then, after 1914 came and went, that year became when the time of the end started. Those that saw the events that took place in 1914 were not supposed to die before Armageddon came. So, what happened to that? Those that were born in 1914 would be 105 now.

You mention Proverbs 4:18 as a justification for the changes in doctrine. First, we need to take a look at Proverbs 4:18 and its context. The Watchtower Society would have us believe that this scripture is telling us that our understanding of God's purpose would become more clear as time progresses. However, examination of the entire passage says something different.

(Proverbs 4:10-19) 10 Hear, my son, and accept my sayings. Then for you the years of life will become many. 11 I will instruct you even in the way of wisdom; I will cause you to tread in the tracks of uprightness. 12 When you walk, your pace will not be cramped; and if you run, you will not stumble. 13 Take hold on discipline; do not let go. Safeguard it, for it itself is your life. 14 Into the path of the wicked ones do not enter, and do not walk straight on into the way of the bad ones. 15 Shun it, do not pass along by it; turn aside from it, and pass along. 16 For they do not sleep unless they do badness, and their sleep has been snatched away unless they cause someone to stumble. 17 For they have fed themselves with the bread of wickedness, and the wine of acts of violence is what they drink. 18 But the path of the righteous ones is like the bright light that is getting lighter and lighter until the day is firmly established. 19 The way of the wicked ones is like the gloom; they have not known at what they keep stumbling.


This passage of scripture is not talking about the doctrinal changes of an organization, but the differences between choosing either a righteous or a wicked course of life. There is no indication in the scriptures that Christians would have " incomplete, even inaccurate, concepts".

(2 Timothy 3:14-17)

14 You, however, continue in the things that you learned and were persuaded to believe, knowing from what persons you learned them 15 and that from infancy you have known the holy writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through the faith in connection with Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.

Paul does not tell Timothy that he would have " incomplete, even inaccurate, concepts", but that he would be "fully competent, completely equipped". This notion of 'new light' is hardly evidence of someone who is completely equipped.


*** w81 12/1 p. 27 par. 2 The Path of the Righteous Does Keep Getting Brighter ***

2 However, it may have seemed to some as though that path has not always gone straight forward. At times explanations given by Jehovah’s visible organization have shown adjustments, seemingly to previous points of view. But this has not actually been the case. This might be compared to what is known in navigational circles as “tacking.” By maneuvering the sails the sailors can cause a ship to go from right to left, back and forth, but all the time making progress toward their destination in spite of contrary winds.

Really, going 'from right to left, back and forth' sounds less like Proverbs 4:18 and more like Proverbs 4:19

19 The way of the wicked ones is like the gloom; they have not known at what they keep stumbling.

continued....

Shawn said...

If the Watchtower Society is really God's sole channel of communication, why do they spend so much time groping for the correct understanding of the scriptures? Another thing about that doesn't line up with an increasing understanding of the scriptures is the nature of the doctrinal changes made by the Watchtower Society. In a situation where the 'light is getting brighter', you would expect the understanding of the scriptures to be more or less the same with minor adjustments. As we've seen in previous posts...

* The Watchtower Society predicted the end of all human government in 1914. That turned out to be wrong.
* The Watchtower Society predicted that Abraham, Isaac and other faithful men of old would be resurrected in 1925. That turned out to be wrong.
* The Watchtower Society predicted the end of this system of things in 1975. That turned out to be wrong.

So much of this 'new light' turns out to be just plain wrong that you have to wonder where this light is coming from?

roflagain said...

I respect that you have come to your own conclusions and you have the freedom to believe what you believe. My study doesn't produce the same conclusions as yours. I believe if anyone is not absolutely convinced their religion teaches the truth, they should be asking themselves why are they associated with it? I think many do just that and move on. In your case, why the blog and trying to prove a point?

Joepublisher1 said...

"...why the blog and trying to prove a point?"

Because you will not hear of these things in your local KH and the Internet provides a public forum for all to hear ALL SIDES instead of just the JW side/slant.

Thank God for the interent.

Also, aren't JW's always trying to prove a point? (i.e. that the end is coming very soon now, it's right around the corner, etc.) Why can't those who have a different view present their viewpoint? It can help others who are unsuspecting and unknowledgeable of this religion.

Joepublisher1 said...

One would have to ask why JW's apologists want xJWs to move on. In many cases they have and part of that is posting what they know about this religion. Could it be that JW apologists want xJWs to not post the disturbing things they have discovered about this religion???

Joepublisher1 said...

Roflagain said...
"My study doesn't produce the same conclusions as yours."

Then why can't you tell us about your "conclusions" in response to Shawn's posts??? I assume that you intimate that your conclusions have led you to believe that you have the Truth. So, why can't you response to Shawn's points and questions? If Shawn is so wrong, why can't a JW apologist successfully present a case against his logic?

Joepublisher1 said...

Shawn to VOR (a JW apologist): "Is that so? Please tell us how that math works. How does the Bible take us from King David to 1914? We're all very eager to hear the truth!"

Why is this so hard for a JW apologist to answer from the Bible alone???

Joepublisher1 said...

In Acts 17:17, it says Paul "reasoned" in order to prove the truth: "Consequently he began to reason in the synagogue with the Jews and the other people who worshiped [God] and every day in the marketplace with those who happened to be on hand."

Thus, I'm calling on JW's apologist to present reasons why Shawn's posts are in error.

Voice of Reason said...

Shawn,

You are wrong again.

The religion of Jehovah's Witnesses is not about "they" or the Watchtower Society. Thus what they did and wrote does not affect the religion. The religion is the worship of the only true God Jehovah. Humans can not alter that.


The Watchtower Society did not predict the end of all human government in 1914. Russell expected the end of the gentile times to occur and nothing to everything could happen then. He was not wrong.


The Watchtower Society did not predict that Abraham, Isaac and other faithful men of old would be resurrected in 1925. Rutherford did. That turned out to be wrong.

And that conclusion does not affect the religion of Jehovah's Witnesses. He did not have that power or authority.

The Watchtower Society did not predict the end of this system of things in 1975. That was stated to be the end of 6000 years of human history. Events could happen but they were not saying that anything would.

No, the Watchtower Society is not God's sole channel of communication, we never said it was. We stated that Jehovah's Witnesses are particularly Jehovah's anointed ones. The Watchtower Society is a printing company used by JWs.

roflagain said...

Joepublisher1, c'mon you can't be serious? No offense to Shawn, but I am not going to be influenced in my search for truth by the conclusions of a blogger on the internet regarding dates like 1914, 1925 and 1975! Shawn is entitled to believe what he wants to believe. I am completely satisfied with my understanding of these dates and simply agree to disagree. Besides, that isn't the basis for why I know Jehovah's Witnesses have the truth. I have much simpler requirements. I believe Jehovah's Witnesses have the truth just by the fact they are the only religion preaching door to door worldwide like the first century Christians (Matthew 24:14). You simply can't get 7 million people from 228 lands around the globe to cooperate with such unity without God's spirit. Can't be done. Another fundamental truth is how Jehovah's Witnesses imitate Jesus by not getting involved in politics or going to war. This is a huge requirement. Even not observing holidays which clearly have pagan origins is required to not offend a God who condemns all forms of false worship. I can't imagine being a part of a "blog", group or organization that conflicts with them.

Regarding attacks on Jehovah's Witnesses...I'd be worried if there weren't attacks against Jehovah's Witnesses on the internet or anywhere else!! It's yet another identification mark that Jehovah's Witnesses have the truth. Jesus said, if they persecuted me, they will persecute you. Jesus was called a liar, glutton, etc, and even put to death unjustly. Some of the apostles and prophets of the past were unjustly put to death, arrested and beaten. I absolutely expect his present day followers be treated the same?

Voice of Reason said...

"Regarding attacks on Jehovah's Witnesses...I'd be worried if there weren't attacks against Jehovah's Witnesses on the internet or anywhere else!! It's yet another identification mark that Jehovah's Witnesses have the truth. "

So true.

Jehovah said that there would be enmity between the woman and the serpent. The serpent is attacking Jehovah's people.

Joepublisher1 said...

Please, enough of with the persecution complex.

The point that I've made several times and it still holds is that not one of you JW apologists has been successfull in going toe-to-toe with Shawn and his logic, which he supports with OFFICIAL documentation from the leaders of this religion.

It's pretty pathetic to read the JW apologists ridiculous excuses (i.e. VOR). I now know why the leaders don't want current JW's to talk with xJW's who have figured out this hoax/scam.

Also, for VOR to state that the leaders have never said they are God's only channel of truth at this time goes against everything that JW's have put in print and teach - if he put this forth to the elders in his congregation and spreads this teaching to his brothers and sisters, he would be DF'd and he knows it. (btw: If anyone has been following this blog, they'll see absurd statements from VOR who says he places JW literature with unsuspecting people at their homes BUT considers them of no value because they contain SO MANY ERRORS. What type of person places literature that he knows has had SO MANY MISTAKES, not minor ones but MAJOR mistakes?)

So, I await the responses to Shawn questions/points above?

Yeah I said it said...

Voice of Reason...40 years from now the new blood will be saying the same thing about the present time. It's been an ongoing pattern since the jws began. The new light loophole by the self proclaimed faithful slave can only fool educated people for a small period of time.

i bet you're getting excellent field service time and return visits posting to this "apostate" forum....now go handle the microphones and be an attendant b/c that a jw babe magnet.



VoR says:

"While Shawn blindly quotes 40 year old magazines, he fails to realize that the ones who wrote those are dead. Thus calling them false prophets has no bearing on the JWs alive today. We didn't write that.

We have read the Bible and made our dedication to Jehovah.

At least we live up to our dedication. Unlike YOU."

Joepublisher1 said...

www.watchtowercomments.com
www.freeminds.org
www.sixscreensofthewatchtower.com
www.silentlambs.org

Joepublisher1 said...

VOR to Shawn: "At least we live up to our dedication."

Well, after considering both sides of this argument, I side with Shawn because his research has proven to him that JW's is not the sole true religion that only JEHOVAH GOD is using. His humility allows him to make the necessary adjustments, which means he doesn't promote it anymore; instead, he warns people of what they may not know.

On the other hand, you have VOR, who admits that JW don't have the truth, yet supports this religion that does indeed claim to have the Truth. I know, my head spins when I think about this guy... it's very disturbing. But, it shows you what pride will do to an individual.

roflagain said...

Joepublisher1, throwing dates at me with an interpretation by some guy on the internet is not going to open my eyes to the hoax or scam as you describe it. And it sure would not inspire me to follow him. You need to disprove the foundation of Jehovah's Witnesses that is based on Bible teachings such as the preaching work, neutrality, upholding high moral standards, being no part of this world, etc. Those are the foundations that identify the truth. This is what identifies a true Christian in line with Christ. I was not raised as one of Jehovah's Witnesses. I grew up Catholic right through college. I have yet to find a Christian religion, as a whole, that can match the faith, integrity, high moral standards, and family values displayed by Jehovah's Witnesses. Prove to me that yourself or Shawn or whoever live more in line with those teachings than Jehovah's Witnesses or that Jehovah's Witnesses teach something contrary.

Shawn said...

roflagain,
This isn't a matter of dueling 'christian religions'. A person is either a Christian or not right? The point is, you don't have to throw out the baby with the bath water. You can keep everything that you believe in without belonging to an organization that has lied to its members so many times. I don't want followers. I'm not looking to start yet another sect of Christianity because it's completely unnecessary. Jesus did all of that work when He was here. He never said that He wanted some organization to take His place. Do not let some group of men come between you and Christ! He died for your sins, not anyone else.

Look, you may not have grown up in the 'truth', but I did. My tenaciousness in matters of scripture comes directly from my upbringing. I dug deep into every corner of JW doctrine. In my teens I could completely explain the prophesy of the gentile times. I couldn't get enough. Really, it's the best thing you can do for yourself. Do the research and dig deep. The truth will withstand any assault. I may disagree with the Watchtower Society, but the truth is still the truth.

Look, anyone who is one of Jehovah's Witnesses knows just how important the year 1914 is. The year 1914 is core to JW doctrine. Please explain to us why this year is scripturally significant. Forget about the fact that Russell taught that 1914 would mark the year of Armageddon and the beginning of the new order. Tell us about the present truth of 1914. Years ago when I was a teenager I could have explained this to you without hesitation. Please don't worry about losing me. I have an aptitude for these things. Growing up, my personal hero was the apostle Paul. He never shied away from declaring what he knew and he was willing to engage those around him.

I call upon you to give a defense for your faith. Namely, why do Jehovah's Witnesses believe that 1914 marks the beginning of the second coming or parousia of Christ? Please, keep in mind that I have been immersed in this since infancy, literally. If you come back with one of VoR's answers, I'll have many more questions for you.

Let's not kid ourselves. You know as well as I do that I have my own position. This discussion is not for you and I as much as it is for those readers who are undecided. Show these readers that the long-held belief of Jehovah's Witnesses that 1914 marks the beginning of the invisible presence of Christ Jesus is scripturally sound.

You mentioned earlier that I am entitled to believe what I want to believe and I whole-heartedly agree with you. I also reserve the right to change my mind and agree with you at any time. However, that change of heart must accompany solid reasoning from the scriptures.

Voice of Reason said...

"Please, enough of with the persecution complex."

Then stop the persecution.

You are not interested in the truth.

Voice of Reason said...

Those sites you listed are not authoritative of JWs.

go to the official sites.

Voice of Reason said...

roflagain,

Joepub is just a follower of Shawn and can't and doesn't think for himself. He is not worth anyone's time.

roflagain said...

Shawn, I know why 1914 is scriptually sound and I believe you do too. Your desperate attempts to prove it scriptually wrong almost appears as if you are trying to prove to yourself you do not need to be a part of Jehovah's earthly organization. It's as if you are trying to convince yourself you can follow the truth without being a part of the congregation. Just like in Noah's day, you have to be in the ark, you can't build your own boat. You of all people should know that.

I personally know very few who have left, because they didn't agree with "something" or experienced something terrible. Fair enough, but to take it out on Jehovah by abandoning the congregation is not the answer. There was even one brother who claimed he was gay and tried to make it look like homosexuality was "ok". Now, he's mad at everyone. You know...if someone chooses to leave, because they don't agree with something, that is their God given right. That is the beauty of free will. I say go ahead and live the life you choose to live...just don't fool yourself into thinking there is no accountability. Free will is relative, not absolute. But to be resentful at an organization simply because a person doesn't agree with it or the organization doesn't suppport their belief...I simply just don't get it. Worse yet, to get involved in another religion...that's like the dog returning to the vomit. If I left, I would never be a part of another religion. It's a waste of time...unless, of course, I'm overwhelmed in self pity looking for sympathy and supporters.

I'm not saying this is your specific situation by any means. I apologize if I gave that impression. I'm simply relating what I have personally witnessed. It appears we are at a crossroad and likely won't ever see eye to eye. No matter, take care and I bid you farewell.

Joepublisher1 said...

VOR replied: "Those sites you listed are not authoritative of JWs."

Of course they aren't JW approved sites. The reason they aren't approved is because they contain many things that JW leaders would never want their followers to see.

www.freeminds.org
www.sixscreensofthewatchtower.com
www.silentlambs.org
www.watchtowercomments.com
www.jwfacts.com

You (the reader) judge for yourself whether these sites contain valid information to consider (both if you are a JW and if you aren't).

Shawn said...

roflagain wrote: "I say go ahead and live the life you choose to live...just don't fool yourself into thinking there is no accountability."

You're right, accountability is at the core of the issue. The Watchtower Society has a long list of requirements to which Jehovah's Witnesses are held accountable. Breaking these rules results in that person being shunned by all other Jehovah's Witnesses and since Jehovah's Witnesses are strongly discouraged from having relationships with non-Jehovah's Witnesses, being shunned essentially leaves them in social isolation. This is a form of relationship control that cults use to control their members.

Cults know that if they can control your relationships then they can control you. Whether we like it or not we are all profoundly affected by those around us. When you first go to a cult they will practice "love bombing", where they arrange instant friends for you. It will seem wonderful, how could such a loving group be wrong! But you soon learn that if you ever disagree with them, or ever leave the cult then you will lose all your new "friends". This unspoken threat influences your actions in the cult. Things that normally would have made you complain will pass by silently because you don't want to be ostracized. Like in an unhealthy relationship love is turned on and off to control.

Cults also try to cut you off from your friends and family because they hate others being able to influence you. A mind control cult will seek to maneuver your life so as to maximize your contact with cult members and minimize your contact with people outside the group, especially those who oppose your involvement.

The Watchtower Society holds its members accountable to their rules and the stakes are high for individual members. There is another type of accountability that is completely ignored however - accountability of the leadership. The Watchtower Society does not hold itself accountable for the many many false predictions it has issued. Take a look at the Watchtower Society's sanitized version of their history in the 'Proclaimers' book in chapter 10.

*** jv chap. 10 pp. 134-135 Growing in Accurate Knowledge of the Truth ***

End of the Gentile Times

The matter of Bible chronology had long been of great interest to Bible students. Commentators had set out a variety of views on Jesus’ prophecy about “the times of the Gentiles” and the prophet Daniel’s record of Nebuchadnezzar’s dream regarding the tree stump that was banded for “seven times.”—Luke 21:24, KJ; Dan. 4:10-17.

As early as 1823, John A. Brown, whose work was published in London, England, calculated the “seven times” of Daniel chapter 4 to be 2,520 years in length. But he did not clearly discern the date with which the prophetic time period began or when it would end. He did, however, connect these “seven times” with the Gentile Times of Luke 21:24. In 1844, E. B. Elliott, a British clergyman, drew attention to 1914 as a possible date for the end of the “seven times” of Daniel, but he also set out an alternate view that pointed to the time of the French Revolution. Robert Seeley, of London, in 1849, handled the matter in a similar manner. At least by 1870, a publication edited by Joseph Seiss and associates and printed in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, was setting out calculations that pointed to 1914 as a significant date, even though the reasoning it contained was based on chronology that C. T. Russell later rejected.

Then, in the August, September, and October 1875 issues of Herald of the Morning, N. H. Barbour helped to harmonize details that had been pointed out by others. Using chronology compiled by Christopher Bowen, a clergyman in England, and published by E. B. Elliott, Barbour identified the start of the Gentile Times with King Zedekiah’s removal from kingship as foretold at Ezekiel 21:25, 26, and he pointed to 1914 as marking the end of the Gentile Times.


continued...

Joepublisher1 said...

VOR, I'm still awaiting your reply to Shawn about how you arrive at 1914, without the use of JW literature, just the Bible.

Shawn said...

Early in 1876, C. T. Russell received a copy of Herald of the Morning. He promptly wrote to Barbour and then spent time with him in Philadelphia during the summer, discussing, among other things, prophetic time periods. Shortly thereafter, in an article entitled “Gentile Times: When Do They End?”, Russell also reasoned on the matter from the Scriptures and stated that the evidence showed that “the seven times will end in A.D. 1914.” This article was printed in the October 1876 issue of the Bible Examiner. The book Three Worlds, and the Harvest of This World, produced in 1877 by N. H. Barbour in cooperation with C. T. Russell, pointed to the same conclusion. Thereafter, early issues of the Watch Tower, such as the ones dated December 1879 and July 1880, directed attention to 1914 C.E. as being a highly significant year from the standpoint of Bible prophecy. In 1889 the entire fourth chapter of Volume II of Millennial Dawn (later called Studies in the Scriptures) was devoted to discussion of “The Times of the Gentiles.” But what would the end of the Gentile Times mean?

The Bible Students were not completely sure what would happen. They were convinced that it would not result in a burning up of the earth and a blotting out of human life. Rather, they knew it would mark a significant point in regard to divine rulership. At first, they thought that by that date the Kingdom of God would have obtained full, universal control. When that did not occur, their confidence in the Bible prophecies that marked the date did not waver. They concluded that, instead, the date had marked only a starting point as to Kingdom rule.

Similarly, they also first thought that global troubles culminating in anarchy (which they understood would be associated with the war of “the great day of God the Almighty”) would precede that date. (Rev. 16:14) But then, ten years before 1914, the Watch Tower suggested that worldwide turmoil that would result in the annihilating of human institutions would come right after the end of the Gentile Times. They expected the year 1914 to mark a significant turning point for Jerusalem, since the prophecy had said that ‘Jerusalem would be trodden down’ until the Gentile Times were fulfilled. When they saw 1914 drawing close and yet they had not died as humans and been ‘caught up in the clouds’ to meet the Lord—in harmony with earlier expectations—they earnestly hoped that their change might take place at the end of the Gentile Times.—1 Thess. 4:17.

As the years passed and they examined and reexamined the Scriptures, their faith in the prophecies remained strong, and they did not hold back from stating what they expected to occur. With varying degrees of success, they endeavored to avoid being dogmatic about details not directly stated in the Scriptures.




This section claims that "The Bible Students were not completely sure what would happen. ", but is that the case? Here's another quote from Russell's book "The Three Worlds":

The seventy years captivity ended in the first year of Cyrus, which was B. C. 536. They therefore commenced seventy years before, or B. C. 606. Hence, it was in B. C. 606, that God’s kingdom ended, the diadem was removed, and all the earth given up to the Gentiles. 2520 years from B. C. 606, will end in A. D. 1914, or forty years from 1874; and this forty years upon which we have now entered is to be such “a time of trouble as never was since there was a nation.” And during this forty years, the kingdom of God is to be set up, (but not in the flesh, “the natural first and afterwards the spiritual),” the Jews are to be restored, the Gentile kingdoms broken in pieces “like a potter’s vessel,” and the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of our Lord and his Christ, and the judgment age introduced.



So far from being 'unsure' about what would happen, Russell believed that in the year 1914 human governments would cease to exist and Christ would rule. Now take a look at this quote ftom The Three Worlds":

continued...

Shawn said...

But I am not willing to admit that this calculation is even one year out. Not from dogmatism, for I am ready to admit that my opinion, or my reasoning, may be as faulty as that of many others; and if, in the present case, there was but this one argument, I should say, it is quite possible errors may be found arising in some unexpected quarter. But there is such an array of evidence. Many of the arguments, most of them, indeed, are not based on the year-day theory, and some of them, not
based even on the chronology; and yet there is a harmony existing, between them all. If you had solved a difficult problem in mathematics, you might very well doubt if you had not possibly made some error of calculation. But if you had solved that problem in seven different ways, all independent one of another, and in each and every case reached the same result, you would be a fool any longer to doubt the accuracy of that result. And this is a fair illustration of the weight of evidence that can be brought to bear on the truthfulness of our present position. Forty years, or now, about thirty-eight years before the times of the Gentiles end, is none too much time, for the accomplishment of the many wonderful events that must transpire during their continuance. If our calculation showed that they were to end this year, or even during this decade, doubts might well arise as to the possibility of this being true. But there seems to be time enough, since events move rapidly in this age of the world.



It wasn't entirely truthful that "At first, they thought that by that date the Kingdom of God would have obtained full, universal control." The Watchtower Society clung to 1914 as marking the end of earthly governments even after 1914 had passed.

July 15, 1914 Watchtower

To my understanding the harvest of the Jewish age com-
menced in the fall of 29 A.D., and, being a period of forty
years, ended in the fall of 69 A.D. In the spring of 70 A.D.,
at the time of the Passover, the Roman army besieged Jerusa-
lem. The siege lasted about six months and ended in the fall
of 70 A.D. Thus the great calamity that our Lord foretold to
Jerusalem did not reach its worst until six months after the
end of the Jewish harvest, and continued about six months
thereafter, or one whole year after the end of the Jewish
harvest. This same period in antitype, if antitype it is, would
seem to be from April, 1915, to October, 1915.
If there is any
significance in this it would seem that the burning of the
"tares" in the time of trouble will not take place until the
harvest is entirely ended.



Then, when it seemed clear that Christ was not going to swoop in and commandeer all human government, they didn't immediately conclude "that, instead, the date had marked only a starting point as to Kingdom rule" as the Proclaimers book states, they blamed the early Bible students for expecting too much.

November 1, 1914 Watchtower

It may be that many of the Lord’s people were expecting
more than they should have
looked for to occur with the open-
ing of the Jewish year 1915, which began with September 21.
The human mind seems to have a natural tendency, and one
with which we should have sympathy, to expect matters to
culminate more rapidly
, fulfilments to come more suddenly,
than they ever do come.


According to the Watchtower, it wasn't failed prophesy, but the natural tendency of human minds to expect matters to culminate more rapidly. As if it had nothing to do with the fact that for forty years, the Watchtower had been printing that 1914 would mark the end of all human governments. Not only that but the date could not be even one year out!

continued...

Shawn said...

Where is the accountability for the leaders of the Bible Students, as they were then known?

Matthew 23:1-4

1 Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to his disciples, saying: 2 “The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the seat of Moses. 3 Therefore all the things they tell YOU, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds, for they say but do not perform. 4 They bind up heavy loads and put them upon the shoulders of men, but they themselves are not willing to budge them with their finger.

What is worse; Smoking a cigarette or misleading millions of honest-hearted Jehovah's Witnesses, telling them that you are God's sole channel of communication and then making predictions that never come to pass?

Deuteronomy 18:21,22
21 And in case you should say in your heart: “How shall we know the word that Jehovah has not spoken?” 22 when the prophet speaks in the name of Jehovah and the word does not occur or come true, that is the word that Jehovah did not speak. With presumptuousness the prophet spoke it. You must not get frightened at him.’

Not only has the Watchtower Society spoken presumptuously, but they blamed their members for believing them!

If you're one of Jehovah's Witnesses you are aware of the high standard to which you are held. Shouldn't the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses be held to an even greater standard since they claim to be entrusted with all of Christ's belongings?

Shawn said...

roflagain wrote:"Shawn, I know why 1914 is scripturally sound and I believe you do too. Your desperate attempts to prove it scripturally wrong almost appears as if you are trying to prove to yourself you do not need to be a part of Jehovah's earthly organization."

So you're unwilling to explain to us why 1914 is scripturally sound? I assert that it is not. That is generally how a debate works. There are two opposing positions and both sides offer arguments that lead individual members of the audience to a conclusion.

I suspect both you and Vor are either unable to explain why Jehovah's Witnesses hold the year 1914 as scripturally significant or you are aware that the Watchtower Society's calculations are completely baseless.

Every time either of you avoid explaining this core doctrine of Jehovah's Witnesses, you erode the credibility of the foundations of your beliefs to the rest of the readers.

Why will you not explain the truth to the readers? Are you ashamed of the things you have learned? Do you not believe the things that the Watchtower Society has taught you through their publications and via their program of spiritual food from the platform?

Are you as one of Jehovah's Witnesses mute?

Luke 12:11 ...do not become anxious about how or what YOU will speak in defense or what YOU will say; 12 for the holy spirit will teach YOU in that very hour the things YOU ought to say.”

Is the holy spirit mute too or is it merely absent from you?

Joepublisher1 said...

To me, that's one of the things that bothers me the most. The JW leaders are not accountable to anyone. They always have excuses for their false prophecies and errors - that should wake people up. You are so right about this Shawn, I'm sure this bothered you as much as it bothers me. We put our trust in them and they abused that trust.

Also, why are the JW apologists going silent on proving 1914 from the Bible? I've been anxiously waiting to see their replies to Shawn and they keep skirting around this issue. It's a real eye-opener.

Ringwielder said...

"You know...if someone chooses to leave, because they don't agree with something, that is their God given right. That is the beauty of free will. I say go ahead and live the life you choose to live...just don't fool yourself into thinking there is no accountability. Free will is relative, not absolute. But to be resentful at an organization simply because a person doesn't agree with it or the organization doesn't suppport their belief...I simply just don't get it."


The Society completely made up the rules about JUDICIAL COMMITTEES (closed courts) with no Witnesses for the defence allowed. Where does it say that in the Bible? Which Scripture are you following?

They dont follow the Bibles example of reinstatement... the prodigal son, but make their own rules which mean that people have to suffer shunning for many months at the back of the Kingdom Hall before being allowed back. Where does it say that in the Bible? Which Scripture are you following?

The greatest example in the Bible, Jesus, got baptized at 30. The Society encourages young teenagers to get baptized. Where is the example of that in the Bible?

"Go ahead and choose the life you want to live...free will"????

They call baptism the biggest decision of your life.... but as a young teen, you cant drive, drink alcohol, get married, vote, join the army.... why? Because you are deemed too young and immature to do these things, but you can dedicate yourself to this Organization which, if you become rebellious as most teenagers do or cease to believe when you become an adult, has the power to separate you from your family for the rest of your life. That is wrong and I have seen many young lives damaged by disfellowshipping, which is blatantly a method of Organizational control.

That is why this Organization needs exposing for what it is, so that the good, innocent, trusting, devoted people inside can break free from their enslavement to these man made rules.

Joepublisher1 said...

Well said Ringwielder, esp. the point about encouraging young people to get baptised - they are just too young/inexperienced-in-life to be making that decision. And, like you said, there's no scriptural foundation for this - unbelievable!

Check out this and you'll see the double standards found within this organization (copy this address into your browser's address field):

http://www.witness-the-truth.info/restore/v/WTV080515ChildBaptism.html

Joepublisher1 said...

You know what is interesting. If JWs really have the truth they could make videos that defend the arguments found on this site:

www.watchtowercomments.com

Perhaps VOR, you could start a web-site that addresses each of these videos and each point of critism. It would be helpful if you use the video format, as it's easy to follow. Thank you in advance for your dedicated efforts.

Let us know.

Voice of Reason said...

"The reason they aren't approved is because they contain many things that JW leaders would never want their followers to see"


No, they are not approved because they are inaccurate. For example they just have quotes from the Watchtower but taken out of context.

Jehovah's Witnesses are not about the Watchtower.

Freeminds. What a joke. Randall Watters was the Watchtower. He worked there.

Voice of Reason said...

So Shawn,

You quoted from the Proclaimers book about the Gentile times and you know that it is not a Watchtower thing.

It is simple, when the kings in the line of David lost their sovereignty, the kingdom would be paused for 2520 years at which Jesus would be enthroned.

Though Barbour's Chronology differs from the ones prior, they get the same result.

But again, it is not a Watchtower thing. It is from Jehovah, he set the events.

Shawn said...

Voice of Reason said...
" So Shawn,

You quoted from the Proclaimers book about the Gentile times and you know that it is not a Watchtower thing."

The Proclaimers book is published by the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, VoR. You can find its entire contents in the Watchtower Library CD ROM. How is it not "a Watchtower thing"? What do you mean by 'thing'?



Voice of Reason said...
" It is simple, when the kings in the line of David lost their sovereignty, the kingdom would be paused for 2520 years at which Jesus would be enthroned.

...

But again, it is not a Watchtower thing. It is from Jehovah, he set the events."

Okay, What scripture says that there would be 2520 years between the last king in the line of David and the enthronement of Jesus?

Which scripture tells us the year to start counting those 2520 years?

If this is from Jehovah and not Watchtower Society interpretation of scripture then it must be laid out in the scriptures themselves. Which scriptures are they?

Shawn said...

VoR wrote...
"No, they are not approved because they are inaccurate. For example they just have quotes from the Watchtower but taken out of context."

Which citations are taken out of context? I will personally alert the site in question about the material taken out of context.

I don't think you would just make a blanket statement that these sites have quoted the Watchtower Society out of context without actually identifying the quotes that have been taken out of context because that would be dishonest.

So please, post links to the misquoted citations from the sites listed by Joepublisher1...

www.freeminds.org
www.sixscreensofthewatchtower.com
www.silentlambs.org
www.watchtowercomments.com
www.jwfacts.com

Don't worry, VoR, we'll get this sorted out. I'm personally committed to routing out misinformation about the Watchtower Society regardless of the source.

Shawn said...

Joepublisher1 said...
"The JW leaders are not accountable to anyone. They always have excuses for their false prophecies and errors - that should wake people up. ...
I'm sure this bothered you as much as it bothers me. We put our trust in them and they abused that trust."

Not only that, they continue to abuse the trust of Jehovah's Witnesses around the world... which is why it's so important to be vocal about these issues.

Voice of Reason said...

Shawn said:"why Jehovah's Witnesses hold the year 1914 as scripturally significant or you are aware that the Watchtower Society's calculations are completely baseless.
"

Well, we are not going by the Watchtower Society's calculations so your argument is moot.

Voice of Reason said...

Joepub said
"The JW leaders are not accountable to anyone. They always have excuses for their false prophecies and errors"

And what bothers me is that you are so wrong but you are so blind you don't see it or want to see it.

JWs don't have leaders. There are ones who oversee the congregations but they are not leaders. They have not made prophesies so they can not have failed ones. And their errors have no effect on the religion because the religion exists inspite of what the people do.
As for 1914. Shawn proved it from the Bible.

Shawn said...

VoR, You still haven't answered tha questions:

What scripture says that there would be 2520 years between the last king in the line of David and the enthronement of Jesus?

Which scripture tells us the year to start counting those 2520 years?

If this is from Jehovah and not Watchtower Society interpretation of scripture then it must be laid out in the scriptures themselves. Which scriptures are they?

You can't actually answer these questions can you? How can you claim that we're wrong when you can't even explain a core Jehovah's Witness belief using the Bible. Really, it's not like we're putting you on the spot here. It's pretty much an open book test where you can read all of the Watchtower Society's publications you want, write an explanation, and then claim that you knew everything already and just flipped to all of the scriptures from memory.

So what's it going to be? You can either answer the questions that any mature JW could answer or you have shown to us all that you have no foundation for your faith and are a blind follower of the Watchtower Society's talks and publications.

Shawn said...

VoR wrote:"JWs don't have leaders. There are ones who oversee the congregations but they are not leaders."

Here's what the Watchtower has to say about the leadership of Jehovah's Witnesses...

*** w87 8/1 p. 19 par. 14 Christ’s Active Leadership Today ***

14 Thus, in tens of thousands of congregations, the righteous reigning King Jesus Christ is using “other sheep” as “princes” to protect his “sheep” from spiritual wind, rainstorm, and drought. (Isaiah 32:1, 2) Like David of old, elders, whether of the anointed or the “other sheep,” pray to Jehovah: “Your spirit is good; may it lead me in the land of uprightness.” (Psalm 143:10) And Jehovah hears their prayer. By means of his Son, He grants them His spirit, and Jesus uses this means actively to lead his disciples on earth. Naturally, all elders must submit to Christ’s “right hand” of control, guidance, and direction, which he exercises by means of the spirit and the spirit-begotten members of the Governing Body.

So you see, the governing body are that last actual, physical people in the chain of command before we arrive at Christ's authority. VoR, you state that they merely 'oversee' the congregations, but they themselves use stronger language. Notice that the article says that the governing body is a source of "control, guidance, and direction", which is a lot less passive than 'oversee'.

*** w07 4/1 p. 24 par. 11 Loyal to Christ and His Faithful Slave ***

In his life story, Albert Schroeder, a longtime member of the Governing Body who recently finished his earthly course, wrote: “The Governing Body meets every Wednesday, opening the meeting with prayer and asking for the direction of Jehovah’s spirit. A real effort is made to see that every matter that is handled and every decision that is made is in harmony with God’s Word the Bible.” We can have confidence in such faithful anointed Christians. Regarding them in particular, we should heed the apostle Paul’s injunction: “Be obedient to those who are taking the lead among you and be submissive, for they are keeping watch over your souls.”

Right here we have a direct link of the phrases 'Governing Body' and 'those who are taking the lead among you'. Could it be any clearer that the organization that Jehovah's Witnesses are part of is lead by this governing body?

*** w06 11/1 p. 23 par. 7 Do You Share Jehovah’s View of Sacred Things? ***

7 Submission to Christ also involves our showing proper respect for the men used by him to take the lead in the work he is now directing. The role of the spirit-anointed ones who make up the Governing Body and of the overseers appointed by them in the branches, districts, circuits, and congregations should be recognized as a sacred responsibility. This arrangement therefore commands our deep respect and submission.—Hebrews 13:7, 17.

Why would you deny that the organization has leaders? I really don't see how denying this adds weight to any of your arguments.

Shawn said...

VoR wrote:"As for 1914. Shawn proved it from the Bible."

Actually, I've intentionally not explained why Jehovah's Witnesses hold the year 1914 to be important. That's our question to you. You explain to us why the year 1914 is any more significant than 1911 or 1711?

Why do you persist in avoiding an important question about the beliefs of Jehovah's Witnesses?

Joepublisher1 said...

There is no way that VOR can debate with Shawn. Shawn's arguments are logical and backed with research and solid reasoning.

I cannot say the same for VOR... I do believe that Shawn has backed the slippery VOR into a corner. (Great job Shawn!)

It's good to know that the REAL TRUTH (esp. about JW's) will always win out.

Thanks a million Shawn for your research and [again] thanks to you VOR for proving to me that you don't have the truth. As a matter of fact, you haven't successfully argued one point on this particular blog or any for that matter.

As Shawn has repeatedly stated, you'll post something like 'that's wrong' and then never back it up with anything. Isn't that childish? I'm guessing you have a lot of growing up to do. In that growing up, I think you're going to see what so many JW are discovering. This organization is a hoax/scam. It is run by humans, not Jehovah God's holy spirit.

It's a shame that they mislead so many honest-hearted/sincere people who had no real knowledge of the Bible or this organization when they first got involved. Once baptized, they are not allowed to read anything critical of JW's, esp. if the source is an xJW. (To be more accurate, even as progress is made, early attempts are made to pursuade the new-comer to not listen to anyone who speaks against JWs.)

I wonder why?

www.jwfacts.com

Yeah I said it said...

i love this blog, but the gaps in content are killing me. here's hoping your stealth reporting is halted b/c you're gearing up for big news and want to remain on the down-low.

BecauseIHaveTo said...

Hello. New writer to this forum, but have been reading posts here for many months. My blogger name refers to the fact that I need to continue being an active JW for reasons you all might imagine - keeping close with a lot of family involved with them. I attended the "Keep on the Watch" District Convention. You all might find it interesting that during a part in the program that was designed to diminish past failed dates, the speaker came up with an ingenious analogy. An example was given of a watchman, responsible to warn its citizens of trouble. It went something like this:

"Now if the watchman, being ever so cautious not to let anything slip by him in an effort to protect his people, and at the same time being very excited for certain future events to come to pass, warns his citizens that danger is here, yet the danger is not yet there, would the watchman be considered a bad watcher? Of course not! He is a zealous guard. He is a loving caretaker. There is not doubt that the danger is still present, still looming. Likewise, there is not doubt for us that the end is near. It's certainly closer now than it ever has been. And with every single other religion asleep at the switch, who do you want on the lookout for you?!"

I thought it was ingenious. Disengenuous, of course. But genious still. It was a wonderful straw man because whether or not these false prophecies proved the religion to be a false prophet was not discussed at all. I heard witnesses talking amongst themselves later, coming up with more anologies, like: "A police officer who wakes you up at night because he thought he saw a robber by your home, but then it turned out to be a false alarm. You wouldn't try to get the officer fired, would you? No! You're just happy he's watching out for you. A couple false alarms actually proves to me that the cop will be there when I really need him!"

I know it might seem that I am excited that the speaker was able to come up with such a clever anology and further hurt the attendees with false teaching. I am not happy about it. It's just that I am always amazed at what can be said on the platform and how easily it's accepted. But in this case, I was intrigued that such a simple, inapplicable analogy could be used not just to justify something that's wrong with the religion, but to get the masses excited that what's wrong is actually a good thing! Suddenly now, the 1975 debacle (and others) is proof that the Slave is communicating with Jesus! We must really Keep on the Watch now!

Reader2008 said...

Hey, becauseihaveto. I feel sorry for your situation. I've done the slow fade, and am still accepted by most.

It is amazing what the JWs will accept as poison from the podium. No critical thinking at all, just blind acceptance. Sad.

How would the family feel if the police officer kept waking the family up, three times a week, for years. Scaring the children into irrational fear? Would they want the police officer fired then?

my-reflections said...

Shawn, for sure you come off as one of the most intelligent exJW I've ever read from.

People like you are the reason the GB are so paranoid about exJW's. JWs are intensively trained to debunk other people's religious ideas. Though prohibited to use that skill in examining their's.

So when a JW becomes free of the GB's shackles and focuse that immense logical prowess in the direction of the JW religion, the entire religion falls completely apart. It is really a deck of cards.

Shawn please stop reasoning with VoR (though he's ARGUING not REASONING). Your making him spit out his lack logic on all levels. As a JW (yes i'm still in, but free mentally) I find it almost beyond belief that I myself was at one time so deluded.

It's not a total waste though. I'm sure he's on his way out but doesn't realise it. He's being here on the first place testifies to that. Plus his constant phrases like "the wachtower is irrelevant"

It reminds me of my long journey all too well.

Voice of Reason said...

Shawn comes off as an idiot. He worships the Watchtower and the governing body because he follows what they say.

Intelligent people would not make issues of things such as dates.

Reginald "Guitaro" said...

It is very Obvious that Voice of Reason is not a real Jehovah's WItnesses. He is someone who finds humor in getting you all worked up with absolutely ridiculous logic. Give it up.

fallenangel said...

i just find it amusing that jehovah's witnesses are on here leaving comments. i thought you were suppose to stay away from websites like this. oh no! you are playing with the devil! Oh no!!! Jehovah doesn't love you anymore! Wake up people!!! You are being controlled! You have been giving your life to a bunch of men and a controlling organization. Not jehovah god! Where in the bible does it speak of an organization? Where in the bible does it tell us to follow a group of 12 men?